Regarding The Supreme Court And The Healthcare Case

klunderbunker

Welcome to My (And Not Sly's) House
One of the arguments against it is that the law is 2700 pages long and WAY too much to read.

Let me make sure I have this straight. The Supreme Court of the United States is using the "no one is going to read this" argument that we infract people for here every day? That's something they'd consider throwing this out over? That's what we've reached?
 
The best part is the judges that are complaining aren't even reading it, there law clerks are. Hold on one second while I grab something I know you'll love KB.

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Oh I've seen those. The Court astounds me and I have a very bad feeling that it'll be the usual politicized nonsense that gave Bush the White House and made Citizens United.
 
Really? You are going to bitch about the Supreme Court not wanting to read the entire thing when most of the Congressmen and Congreswomen who passed it didn't bother reading it? When we were all told by Nancy Pelosi that we would have to pass it to see what was in it? I find it entirely laughable that you expect the Supreme Court to do something the idiots who passed it refused to do.
 
Really? You are going to bitch about the Supreme Court not wanting to read the entire thing when most of the Congressmen and Congreswomen who passed it didn't bother reading it? When we were all told by Nancy Pelosi that we would have to pass it to see what was in it? I find it entirely laughable that you expect the Supreme Court to do something the idiots who passed it refused to do.

Why yes, I am in fact criticizing the Supreme Court for saying it's too long to read and find out if what's in there is constitutional or not, mainly due to it being their job to read and find out if what's in there is constitutional or not.
 
Why yes, I am in fact criticizing the Supreme Court for saying it's too long to read and find out if what's in there is constitutional or not, mainly due to it being their job to read and find out if what's in there is constitutional or not.

Funny, I thought their job was to listen to the arguments from both the Obama administration and the challengers...if the burden laid entirely with the Supreme Court justices, then why did they need to hear arguments at all? Couldn't they have just read it without bothering to hear arguments? Oh, that's right...because they have many cases they have to get through each year, many opinions that need to be written up that prevents them from spending six months trying to dissect each issue.

If the Obama adminstration did an adequate job defending it's constitutionality, the Justices shouldn't have to read the entire thing. Either Obama's lawyers presented a compelling argument or they didn't. The fact that the Justices took their initial votes yesterday already means that they felt they already had enough info to proceed.

Further, since you want to whine about being afraid it will be politicized, that would also not require reading it, would it not? If the left leaning judges are automatically going to side with the Obama Administration, and the right leaning judges are automatically going to side against, then reading the entire thing would be moot, an exercise in futility. What would be the point? If they are going to vote what they vote on ideology alone, then reading it serves little purpose.
 
Funny, I thought their job was to listen to the arguments from both the Obama administration and the challengers

Do you really think they don't read the documents in other cases? Really?

...if the burden laid entirely with the Supreme Court justices, then why did they need to hear arguments at all?

So that we don't have 9 people deciding the fate of major court cases without letting both sides defend it? Common sense perhaps?
Couldn't they have just read it without bothering to hear arguments? Oh, that's right...because they have many cases they have to get through each year, many opinions that need to be written up that prevents them from spending six months trying to dissect each issue.

Yeah how dare they actually take some time on the most important case they've had in years.

If the Obama adminstration did an adequate job defending it's constitutionality, they shouldn't have to read the entire thing. Either they presented a compelling argument or they didn't. The fact that they took their initial votes yesterday already means that they felt they already had enough info to proceed.

So let me make sure I have this straight.

We don't need to know what's in a law as long as the summaries of it are good? Didn't you complain earlier about the Congress passing this without explaining what was in it?
 
Ah, so you are aware of the concept of irony. Did you complain that they didn't read it before passing it? NO? Then we are at a standstill, aren't we?

It seems to me that the Supreme Court is simply following the protocol set by Ms. Pelosi and Mr. Reid. Had the bill been available to read before passing, so that everyone who voted knew what was in it, I might be sympathetic to your complaint. But because the democrats didn't bother, it seems to me that the precedent has been set already, and the Supreme Court is simply following their lead.

I also noticed that neither Bader-Ginsburg, Kagan, Sotomayor or Breyer haven't complained about not reading the entire thing either, surely if they felt that it should be read cover to cover before they can deliver an honest opinion that they would have brought that up, right?

But, what is the purpose of hearing arguments if they read the entire thing? This is what you simply don't get. If they read the whole thing they could form their opinions entirely without arguments at all. They know the Constitution, they would know from reading whether it was constitutional or not, and wouldn't need any lawyers to tell them what they already know.

Do you have any judges in your family? I ask out of curiosity...my dad was a judge in Michigan for 12 years, and I know from conversations with him that very rarely do judges nitpick the entire complaint in front of them. They skim for the major details, and then let the prosecutor and defense present their cases. Cases aren't won or lost because of the specific wording in the case file most of the time, they are usually won or lost based on the persuasiveness of the attorneys involved...because judges simply don't have the time to do all of the research for every fact for every case. It's unrealistic. Yet, this is exactly what you expect them to do.

I suspect there is an ulterior motive to wanting them to go item for item through 2,700 pages though...what you are really saying is that you want the process to take so long that by the time they finish, the election is over, because you know that if when they strike it down, it will be a huge embarrassment to Obama, and could cost him the election.
 
Ah, so you are aware of the concept of irony. Did you complain that they didn't read it before passing it? NO? Then we are at a standstill, aren't we?
They wrote it. They know what's in it. Why would they need to read it?
It seems to me that the Supreme Court is simply following the protocol set by Ms. Pelosi and Mr. Reid. Had the bill been available to read before passing, so that everyone who voted knew what was in it, I might be sympathetic to your complaint. But because the democrats didn't bother, it seems to me that the precedent has been set already, and the Supreme Court is simply following their lead.

Typical GOP answer: they did it, so it's ok if we do it.

I also noticed that neither Bader-Ginsburg, Kagan, Sotomayor or Breyer haven't complained about not reading the entire thing either, surely if they felt that it should be read cover to cover before they can deliver an honest opinion that they would have brought that up, right?

Or maybe they're not whiny?

But, what is the purpose of hearing arguments if they read the entire thing? This is what you simply don't get. If they read the whole thing they could form their opinions entirely without arguments at all. They know the Constitution, they would know from reading whether it was constitutional or not, and wouldn't need any lawyers to tell them what they already know.

Because court cases are about spinning things. You can have 9 justices read the same thing and get 9 different answers on why something is constitutional or not, all by experts on the Constitution who can back up what they say. The point of the arguments is to make those justices go with what your side of the argument is.

Do you have any judges in your family? I ask out of curiosity...my dad was a judge in Michigan for 12 years, and I know from conversations with him that very rarely do judges nitpick the entire complaint in front of them. They skim for the major details, and then let the prosecutor and defense present their cases. Cases aren't won or lost because of the specific wording in the case file most of the time, they are usually won or lost based on the persuasiveness of the attorneys involved...because judges simply don't have the time to do all of the research for every fact for every case. It's unrealistic. Yet, this is exactly what you expect them to do.

Actually if there's a case before the Supreme Court that is going to change the lives of the entire country, I'd expect them to know more than the basic idea of it. I'd rather not have something that important be based off skimming the document.

I suspect there is an ulterior motive to wanting them to go item for item through 2,700 pages though...what you are really saying is that you want the process to take so long that by the time they finish, the election is over, because you know that if when they strike it down, it will be a huge embarrassment to Obama, and could cost him the election.

Not exactly but thanks for trying to read my mind. Actually as I said, I'd rather them know what they're talking about rather than have a general idea of it.
 
-If you're a Supreme Court justice, fuck off, and read the thing. There really is no reason why any of them shouldn't be reading it.

-I don't care if it's struck down. The individual mandate has always bothered me, just a little bit. I understand it basically kills the law, but it needs to be fixed anyhow. It definitely hurts Obama if it's struck down, but you're running against Romney. If you can't beat that empty suit, you shouldn't be running again to start with.
 
-If you're a Supreme Court justice, fuck off, and read the thing. There really is no reason why any of them shouldn't be reading it.

-I don't care if it's struck down. The individual mandate has always bothered me, just a little bit. I understand it basically kills the law, but it needs to be fixed anyhow. It definitely hurts Obama if it's struck down, but you're running against Romney. If you can't beat that empty suit, you shouldn't be running again to start with.

It's going to be very interesting to see what happens if it's struck down completely. If you take away the insurance that's been given to a lot of people, myself included, and say that it's because of something most people dont' understand/care about, the people aren't going to be happy. I think a lot of them are going to be mad not at Obama, but at the people that took it away. At the end of the day, Obama was the one that tried to help them, and I think that some (certainly not all) are going to remember that.

On a side not, the fact that this is actually happening is pathetic. The fact that we're this far behind the civilized world and that the right to be taken care of when you're sick is considered a privilege in the year 2012 is scary.
 
It's going to be very interesting to see what happens if it's struck down completely. If you take away the insurance that's been given to a lot of people, myself included, and say that it's because of something most people dont' understand/care about, the people aren't going to be happy. I think a lot of them are going to be mad not at Obama, but at the people that took it away. At the end of the day, Obama was the one that tried to help them, and I think that some (certainly not all) are going to remember that.

I hope you're right. Then again, we're a results oriented country, more so now than ever before, and a lot of morons vote on who they believe won or lost certain fights. I hope I'm way off on this.
 
I hope you're right. Then again, we're a results oriented country, more so now than ever before, and a lot of morons vote on who they believe won or lost certain fights. I hope I'm way off on this.

I do too. Granted it would be a lot easier if the Supreme Court isn't completely right winged for once but since we can't bet on that, there is a silver lining in all this. If it gets struck down, people aren't going to settle for things going back to the way they were and something will have to be put into place, whether it's public option or single payer or something like that, and if the GOP won't do it, the people will elect Congressmen and Senators that will. The old system was a joke and the reforms helped, but they didn't go far enough. You shouldn't have to get insurance through your job. You should get it because you're a citizen. Can't afford it? Well we couldn't afford wars and tax cuts but we have those anyway. However since it's a good idea and it would help everyone, Republicans will scream from the rooftops that it takes away freedom or it's class warfare or whatever their line of the week is.
 
Ah, so you are aware of the concept of irony. Did you complain that they didn't read it before passing it? NO? Then we are at a standstill, aren't we?
As long as you Republicans are admitting you see the Supreme Court as part of your political party, just how much money has the Republican party paid to Court justices over the years?

It seems to me that the Supreme Court is simply following the protocol set by Ms. Pelosi and Mr. Reid. Had the bill been available to read before passing, so that everyone who voted knew what was in it, I might be sympathetic to your complaint. But because the democrats didn't bother, it seems to me that the precedent has been set already, and the Supreme Court is simply following their lead.
Yes, because that's what we want from our Supreme Court, justices who "follow" the lead of our legislators.

This isn't (or at least shouldn't be) a Democrat vs. Republican thing. The very idea the Supreme Court will dismiss a law as unconstitutional based on the fact it is too long to read is absolutely absurd, and any justice who advocates it should immediately be removed from the bench, regardless of their political affiliation.

But, what is the purpose of hearing arguments if they read the entire thing? This is what you simply don't get. If they read the whole thing they could form their opinions entirely without arguments at all. They know the Constitution, they would know from reading whether it was constitutional or not, and wouldn't need any lawyers to tell them what they already know.
Well, I guess that explains how we got the decisions in the District of Columbia vs. Heller and McDonald vs. Chicago cases.

"The Supreme Court didn't actually read the 2nd Amendment, so that is why they weren't aware of the first thirteen words. "

It all makes sense now. ;)

It's unrealistic. Yet, this is exactly what you expect them to do.
In the only job in the entire country where you cannot be fired, laid off, re-assigned, or otherwise lose your position, I expect our Supreme Court justices to actually know what is in the bill, and not decide against it because of the length.

I suspect there is an ulterior motive to wanting them to go item for item through 2,700 pages though...what you are really saying is that you want the process to take so long that by the time they finish, the election is over, because you know that if when they strike it down, it will be a huge embarrassment to Obama, and could cost him the election.
I don't think the justices decision will hurt Obama nearly as much as it could help him.
 
In the only job in the entire country where you cannot be fired, laid off, re-assigned, or otherwise lose your position

Interesting note: this actually is a misconception. Supreme Court justices can be impeached and removed from the bench. It's never happened nor has it ever come close to happening that I remember, but it is in fact possible to do.
 
I am not sure this is worth overreacting to. It is probably just part of laying the groundwork for delaying the decision on this case until a less political time. That is probably a good idea all things considered.
 
Interesting note: this actually is a misconception. Supreme Court justices can be impeached and removed from the bench. It's never happened nor has it ever come close to happening that I remember, but it is in fact possible to do.

REALISTICALLY...In the only job in the entire country where you cannot be fired, laid off, re-assigned, or otherwise lose your position...

;)
 

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