Raw talent: Pushed by the Fans vs Pushed by Creative

[NYSandman]

MODERATOR COMMENTS

Keep in mind that this is NOT a thread solely on Sheamus. We already have one of those talking about him as #1 Contender. You can feel free to discuss Sheamus' total push since he arrived on Raw, however the hope is that you will discuss and compare his push (if you chose to discuss him) with the push (or lack thereof) of other WWE talent such as Kofi Kingston, Jack Swagger, Legacy, Evan Bourne, etc. In other words, Sheamus should not be the sole person mentioned in your post.

I was thinking about how certain guys become stars. I'm going to use Sheamus and Kofi as examples.

Kofi's push seems to be a result of fans getting behind him. Even when he was doing the Jamaican gimmick, he got heavily cheered, and the fans responded well to him.

So, WWE, not being as dumb as we may think, went ahead and elevated him to the next level, with, I think, pretty good results thus far.

Sheamus, on the other hand, seems to be a guy that creative is just shoving down our throats. I mean, come on! A world title shot already?

He doesn't deserve that. He hasn't done anything to prove himself to the fans, and it looks like he's being pushed the way Snitsky was.

How do you guys feel about fan pushes as opposed to creative pushes? Can a force fed superstar ever really get over without the fans getting the hype started?

Guys like Orton busted their asses for years before getting the nod from fans, and, thus, from creative.

But, just putting a guy in squash matches and then putting him against Cena isn't going to get the fans behind him if he's boooooooooooooring!

Why does WWE seem to single out these gross muscle heads and push them over other guys who are breaking their asses week in and week out? The formula has failed before, and I think it will fail again.

It's not that I don't like Sheamus. I actually think he's pretty cool and a decent worker. But, let us get to know the guy a little before throwing him into a world title picture. It's going to backfire, and poor Seamus is going to suffer in the end.

 

[Coco]

Guys like Orton busted their ass? Really? Come on. He was handpicked to be the guy from day one, taken in by Trips, given feuds with Michaels and Foley, and thrown the world title. When he failed, he was given chance after chance. He's the definition of a guy getting "pushed by creative."

My opinion is that both of these things are necessary to get a guy over in the main event. Obviously the fans need to care about you, or you aren't going to around for too long. Legacy are the definition of people getting pushed by creative but nobody caring. They decided Ted would be successful and threw a movie at him before they realized they really had nothing of value on their hands for the foreseeable future and that he isn't quite catching on like the thought he would. Even a rub from DX hasn't helped these guys. Creative alone pushing a person isn't the end all be all.

On the other hand, a guy does need creative help. Kofi was catching on with the fans for a while now, but he was really looking like an undercard nobody and a midcarder to life. Creative pushed him and now his pops are growing exponentially every week. Kofi, for however over he got on his own, needed creative to give him the chance. Both creative and the crowd need to be behind someone for them to achieve the greatest kinds of success.

Don't get down on Sheamus. He's getting a chance to show what he has at an off month PPV in a semi-main event. Other matches will be above this, and creative is giving Sheamus a chance to catch on and see if he can hang. This isn't a decree from creative that Sheamus is made for life, this is an opprotunity, Much similar to what TNA gave Nigel last month out of the blue and with no build and was praised for.

Nigel caught on with the fans but was force fed to them first. Him and Orton are proof that force feeding works on occasion and creative can get things over with the audience. Audience reaction doesn't always come first. Opprotunities sometimes need to be presented for some people to attain it. Give Sheamus a shot.

 

[Rated R SuperFan]

I like this thread already . So this is my take and I'll use the same examples as the started or the thread Koki got over with the fans but had alittel help from creative ( being put ina program with Orton) and that is all well and good however Sheamus has gotten over because of Creative 100%.

I mean come on first he beats up on Jamie Noble (after the match was over) then takes out the Timekeeper (a bitch move by anyone's standards) fallows that up with taking out a Hall oF Famer Jerry The King Lawler (with a basic sneak attack after The King when to check on the timekeeper) and this week he beats up Finlay which albeit isn't an easy task but they made it look easy for The "Celtic Bully" Shameful oh I mean The "Celtic Warrior" Sheamus . and when Sheamus won the battle royal and John Cena came out to sign the contract Sheamus was faced with his greatest challange to date . NO not the fact that John Cena is the WWE Champion ! No ! Not that He was getting his first WWE Championship Match . Sheamus was faced with his greatest challange because he was finally facing someone his own size that Sheamus can't bully someone that might , no someone that WILL fight back and not only fight back but actully Beat Sheamus at his own game .

And up until this point Sheamus has been pushed down our throats as a Bully that no one will stand up to and anyone that does gets kicked in the face .. Well IWC WWE Creative (if you wanna call them that) can try to Force Sheamus into the Main Event and the WWE Championship Picture but does anyone really think that The "Celtic Bully" Sheamus can actully beat John Cena in any match let alone a WWE Championship Tables Match on PPV ? Sheamus doen't deserve to be in a WWE Championship match ...yet . However Kofi does based on the fact that us the fans , the WWE Universe are behind him 100% that's just my take on it . TAKE CARE and HAPPY THANKSGIVING EVERYONE

 

[jmuhse0611]

I dont hate the fact that Sheamus won becuase as it was said this upcoming ppv is just a filler until the Royal Rumble and im sure creative wants the big guns in the actual Rumble. But I feel that yes it is a little to early in his career to get a title shot, and that creative dropped a big story line ball with putting Sheamus in this match. If for instance they had DiBiase win (which i thought all along he was going to) they could have continued the Kofi-Orton fued and had finally ap ay off match at TLC, and for the next few weeks could have had Orton lobby with Ted to give him his title shot and so on and so on.

Also with the upcoming movie for Ted, and him not turning face wouldnt a good match at TLC and possibly a rematch at RR against Cena help sell more dvds? I guess there just writing this dvd off as a loss, barring some change in the next few weeks. With Kofi I feel that Cena isnt the right guy for him to face for the title and a face vs face match wouldnt good, if he continues with Orton maybe even get a victory at TLC (probably by DQ) and maybe even eliminate him from the RR we can see a good long fued that will help both wrestlers.

 

[mkman613]

you guys need to understand something. there is absolutely nothing wring with having a great feud that does not revolve around a title. right now on raw, everybody that matters is occupied with some sort of feud. orton/kofi, miz/swagger, dx/jerishow, (you could even throw in mvp, wsg/ legacy)...and there is no one else who is world championship worthy... evan bourne? chavo? sanitno?....shaemus is absolutely the right way to go. i think its a great move..is it a lil early....yes maybe...but its better than ruining a good feud by taking orton or kofi or somebody else out. PLUs look at it this way...right when things go stale on raw they can pull out there back up card....break up legacy or have them turn on orton..personally id love for them to take the title away from cena, but he cant carry a feud if it isnt revolving around a title.

good move WWE.

 

[Jaziet]

Using ORTON as an example of creative pushing wrestlers down our throats is completely inaccurate. Sheamus has never had/shown half the potential ORTON has even wen he interrupting us with his Randy News Network (classic). Lets use CHRIS MASTERS 1st run with Wwe he couldnt even have a good match with HBK or FLAIR basically the only difference between SHEAMUS and MASTERS is that one uses body tan. creative is clearly teasing the fans with Kofi's push as it will be more significant due to ORTON being the top heel in the company and wen the time comes 4 him to face someone for the title it will be more anticipated and ultimately increase interest.

 

[patdsez]

Come on! For months all the chatter within the IWC was how stale the main events were becoming and then creative tries to do something about it and we complain. Am I saying that there aren't other deserving guys? Absolutely not. I, for one, thought Swagger should have gotten the push here and he didn't even make it to the battle royal, but at least it's new. This thread feels like the IWC just looking for things to complain about. You wanted a new main event and you got it. Lets give Sheamus a chance before we start complaining about how we finally got what we've been clamoring for.

 

[jmuhse0611]

you are right it is new, and obviously the wwe sees something in Sheamus and feels he deserves this, and good for him, i however feel that in that match Dibiase should have went over and started his transition, but if i had to choose anyone to really go over in this match i would have went with Swagger as well, his and Cenas match on Raw earlier this year was great adn i feel they would get a bunch of great matches against each other. but i have no problem with the sheamus thing and lets hope it all works out for the best

 

[raptorsfan4life]

i highly doubt that we'll see seamus and cena at tlc... i have the feeling that they'll use this to make seamus more credible and then switch someone else in to face cena at the last moment.... if it is seamus who faces cena then i would really be surprised because vince has never let someone get a title shot so early...... its nice to see the wwe taking initiative and letting younger stars develop...

 

[XgringolocoX]

PAtdsez is right on. I'll I read on here is people crying "the main event is just Orton, Cena, HHH, HBK...it sucs!" So now they throw a new guy in the mix and y'all cry still.

Kofi is an example iof a guy getting over, then getting a push because of it. They're starving for new stars and if someone is getting over like Kofi is they'll pick up the ball and run with it. Hopefully.

Shaemus I think has what it takes, but like said above is being forced a bit. I think he'll be accepted more just given a little time. I'm not unhappy that he's been given a shot. I'll just be unhappy if he can't hang.

 

[BladeRunner]

PAtdsez is right on. I'll I read on here is people crying "the main event is just Orton, Cena, HHH, HBK...it sucs!" So now they throw a new guy in the mix and y'all cry still.

Well firstly, the IWC is not one monolithic contradictory being. It's a bunch of different people with a bunch of different opinions. When people are like "the IWC whine about this, and then whine about the opposite" it's because different people are whining about different things.

Anyways, there are very few wrestlers who are going to get "favorited" by the audience. Most new ones are going to be booed unrelentingly. Kofi is a rare case of it being otherwise. So what WWE has to do is make it's own builds for some of it's other new guys until and if they can catch on in the public's eyes.

I think Sheamus makes a good heel. I like his wrestling style, I also like him better than Jack Swagger. They really tried pushing Jack, but it just wasn't his time yet. But I feel like Sheamus has something more.

I also think as long as a guy hasn't had a world title shot yet many people are going to think that it's too soon for him to get one. But it's gotta start somewhere. I'm willing to give the guy a chance and see where it goes. Nobody gave the Miz a chance, and he eventually definitely got over so you never know what will happen.

 

[Chadmw]

I think the way they are pushing Kofi is perfect, they have him in a high profile feud with a top star, and letting the fans get more and more into him.

Unfortunately with Seamus, I think they are going the Kozlov route, pushing him too quickly when not enough fans care about him one way or another yet. And because of this I don't think he is going to get the rub he needs from this match and will end up in mid card hell like Kozlov.

As another poster mentioned I also thought that Dibiase was going to run the battle royal last night, after maybe "accidently" eliminating Orton. The only thing I am hoping for is that Legacy may have a decent feud with MVP and Henry to help push them again, after they seemed to have disappeared the last couple of weeks.

I was also surprised with how over the Miz is (especially among the IWC) that he was not involved in this match

 

[EveRSoRisDXStYLe]

I myself believe that the battle royal they had was a great idea..and it could have worked if they hadn't decided to continue shoving Sheamus down our throats. Look the guy has never wore gold...he was in ECW a little over 3 months ago, and his mic skills are horrible. You want to have a legit contender for any belt you put him in matches that is impressive if he wins, not squash matches that in no way impress anyone enough to say...wow he really should be in the title scene soon. Sheamus just like everyone else creative has tried to shove down our throats will fail...you're putting him up against the biggest money maker in the industry right now and this will definitely be a squash match and unfortunately for WWE doing this will also make their buy rate for this PPV look worse than TNA. I mean if you're going to just throw someone in to wrestle Cena how about someone who has wore gold at least in some form...I mean SERIOUSLY.

 

[RavensFlock1990]

Out of everybody in the "breakthrough battle royal" they chose to have the only guy who doesn't get a crowd reaction get the win. Kofi, MVP, Mark Henry and R-Truth are all really over with the fans. Legacy usually gets pretty decent heel reactions. After Sheamus won you could hear a pin drop. The fans didn't even give him a reaction after he put Cena through a table. That's when you KNOW the fans don't give a flying fuck about Sheamus.

 

[Punkaholic]

Just a new bit of info which I feel would add an extra insight into this discussion.... I read in an interview with Triple H in a magzine called Powerslam a few months ago, that Triple H is really big on Sheamus and they are "training buddies". Apparently Trips sees a lot of himself in Sheamus (may explain the direction Sheamus is going in with his beard!!!) and could explain this push..... Discuss!!!

Now, saying this, I am very happy that there is a new face in the title picture. I for one was thinking after Survivior Series that it would be HHH, HBK or both facing Cena at TLC - so the general direction which Raw went in last night was a massive up for me... lets just hope Sheamus takes the title!!!!

 

[RavensFlock1990]

Just a new bit of info which I feel would add an extra insight into this discussion.... I read in an interview with Triple H in a magzine called Powerslam a few months ago, that Triple H is really big on Sheamus and they are "training buddies". Apparently Trips sees a lot of himself in Sheamus (may explain the direction Sheamus is going in with his beard!!!) and could explain this push..... Discuss!!!

Now, saying this, I am very happy that there is a new face in the title picture. I for one was thinking after Survivior Series that it would be HHH, HBK or both facing Cena at TLC - so the general direction which Raw went in last night was a massive up for me... lets just hope Sheamus takes the title!!!!

If HHH is behind this push then RIP WWE cause once HHH takes over the company will die.

And why would you want a guy whose biggest win is over Jamie Noble to become world champ? He hasn't proven anything yet. I would like the world titles to keep some sort of credibility.

 

[Tyler44]

The thing about this push is that it got me surprised and somewhat confused. In the battle royal, I for sure thought Orton and Kingston would be left and Orton would win; but obviously that didn't happen. Sheamus winning is something we all wanted and we don't even realize that. We have wanted to make this RAW main event less stale, and putting in a random guy no one knows is a good way to push someone as a serious person and at least put on a match for the title that isn't cena vs orton or Triple H. Would we have been more pissed to watch Cena vs Orton or Sheamus vs Cena?

But now on the topic of the pushes, we have seen two pushes going on mainly on RAW right now. Kofi Kingston is your fan favorite who everyone wants to see fight for the title, and Sheamus is the creative favorite that some want to see and some don't because they are complete hypocrites and bitches. My reason for that and I'll quote mostly what I've read from the people who don't like him in the match: "Raw needs new people fighting for the title. It is so boring, we have seen Cena vs Orton like 9000 times." Now, a new talent is fighting for the title and the response now by those same people is "Are you shitting me, Shameful, oh I mean Sheamus, is fighting. This is so stupid. The buy rates will decrease and Vince will lose money because i care so much about that and i have graphs on the wwe's salary and income and all that shit." (aka as Lord Sidious would call, a wwe shareholder).

Now my take on this is that I think wwe is using Sheamus in this match instead of Kofi or Legacy for a few good reasons:

1.) Seeing what Sheamus has in him and see how the crowd will respond to him which will easily decide his future on Raw and where he will stand. Obviously he won't win, but this is just a test to analyze him.

2.) This reason regards Kofi Kingston. They are saving his title match for whenever he gets it for a good ppv and not some random one we don't care for. This push has him in a feud with Orton, so they will keep it like that.

My overall point is that both sides of the Push by the fans and Push by creative really depend on where creative is going with this. They obviously realize Kofi is becoming so much more popular than most midcarders, but they don't want to waste him in his title match on a shitty ppv where he will most likely lose. They also realize the feud with Orton is really good thus far, so they can continue it and give them their match on the ppv. If this is creative's goal, then that is why they are going to put Sheamus in the match. It will test him and decide his career while Kofi still has a match on the card. Everything will work out in the end. Kofi will get his title match on the bigger stage while Sheamus will be fighting for the US title. Pretty much pushed by the fans talents will be much more glorious in the end for everyone while pushed by creative talents will not look as great until they earn their moments.

 

[Megadeth]

I can think of one really big example of someone being pushed by creative getting over in a similar fashion as what they are trying to do with Sheamus, and that man is Brock Lesnar. When Brock debuted, he squashed the Hardys for a couple of months, won the King of the Ring, and became the undisputed WWE champion from The Rock, no less, is less than 6 months after making his debut. While they may have done a better job with Brock than what they are doing with Sheamus, it is still the same basic formula. Brock had no mic skills at the time, so they were smart enough to stick him with Paul Heyman. Much like Sheamus, Brock went around assaulting people for no reason, making his debut attacking Al Snow, Maven, and Spike Dudley. The only major difference was that they did have Brock beat a few legit contenders first such as Booker T and RVD in the KOTR tourney which is how he became the #1 contender. Then to make him seem more legit, they had him squash Hulk Hogan before his title match. And finally he beat The Rock. All in the span of 5 to 6 months.
I personally never really cared for Brock Lesnar because I felt he was being forced on us, much like Sheamus. I never expected him to win the KOTR, I thought for sure it would have been RVD who was super over at the time, and I definitely did not think he would beat The Rock. But in the end, Lesnar got over and became huge. And so while I personally dont think it is the way to get over, you cant say it has never worked, it just has to be done right. My guess is over the next few weeks the will have Sheamus go over some top people to make him seem like a real threat.

 

[colalella2891]

I agree with you completely. In my opinion, stars should be 'pushed by the fans' as you put it. Look at the main eventers we have today. John Cena is a clear example. He got serious pops before he won his first WWE championship. Jeff Hardy, he got big pops when he was Intercontinental champion. They should wait to see what the fans think.

Last night on Raw when Shaemus attacked cena, he did get a decent amout of heat, but it's not fair for other superstars (Kofi, Swagger, Bourne, Miz, Morrison, Hardy, Christian). They deserve it.

And coco, I completely disagree with you about Orton. He DID bust his ass, and the thing is, HE GOT POPS FROM THE CROWD AROUND HIS FIRST MAJOR PUSH. He even got heat by himself, in matches with multiple legends. That's not pushed by creative, that's the fans' work.

 

[JJohns]

First of all, I sorta like the fact that they are giving Sheamus a chance early to have a program with "The Champ". Believe it or not, same thing happened with a young wrestler named John Cena. Early in his Rap Gimmick, he had a chance to work a small program with Brock Lesnar. He didn't win the title during that time, but it set him up to work on the larger stage.

Now, as far as wrestlers being pushed by creative, some guys out there are shoved down our throats and then we start to respond to them. See Orton or Triple H. Triple H was shoved down our throats for a couple years before DX started. Look at him now, creative still shoves him down our throats, but the fans actually are behind him.

Sometimes we, the fans, do need to be forced to sit through certain wrestlers getting major shots, because at the end of the day, WWE is a business.

If the WWE gives the fans everything they want all in one fell swoop, fans would stop buying tickets, video games, and action figures.

 

[Dropkicked]

Jesus Christ you people are bitches. Like some one said - talk about a bunch of hipocrites. Either you want something new or not.

Answer me this...if not Shameus then who? Who do you have as heel on Raw? Orton, legacy, who else? Exactly. No one. So why not take a shot?

Obviously this is a test. Yes, Shameus will be pushed as a major heel but that is only because RAW is lacking them. Look - in a 3 hour RAW, how many competing wrestlers were from Smackdown?

Quite honestly I cannot remember a RAW feeling that throwback in years. The tourney, the great shoot promos, the royal, the contract signing setup. The whole thing was done real well. But like always, people have to whine.

No it shouldn't be Kofi yet. No it shouldnt be Legacy because they have no presence. Shameus has already made more of a lasting impression than Legacy combined. He is a monster heel. And I promise you - the man will get dumped on by the crowd from here on out because if for anything, the IWC that is in the crowd will be whining.

By the way people talk on how much fan and crowd influnce should be a factor in a push, it shouldn't be Shameus vs Cena it should be Vicki Guerrero vs. Cena. I mean she gets the biggest heat of all.

At least us verterans of Saturday morning wrestling and early days of Raw can enjoy this. I hope we see more of this every Monday and not the bullcrap of recent week.

 

[toast92682]

This may only be me but if you want Sheamus to get over lets try tanning and lets be changing your name. The guy is big and his sneak attacks are ok, but he's just too goofy for me to watch. I am glad they are giving a new guy a title shot but there are sooo many different guys I woud have liked to see get a title shot. I have to be honest, I thought Orton was gonna win bc no one else in the ring stood a chance in todays ppv standards. Now if WWe spent half the time building all the young talent like they have Sheamus we would have a very good and very entertaining WWE show. Look at all the talent they have. Chris Masters, Ted Dibiase, Kofi, Cryme tyme, MVP, Carlito, Evan Bourne, Finley, Hart Dynasty, Kane, Christian, and Rhodes (to name a few). There are a few of what the WWE has to offer and if they had the proper push they would be the future of the WWE. I think the WWe is realizing how stale they are and thats why they are giving a new young guy the push. I am happy to see a new guy getting the title shot but I dnt know if I would have chosen Sheamus. The list of names I gave, Id take any of them over this guy. Yes he is big, but just too goofy for me t care. They are taking a step in the right direction with giving new guys a shot and i think thats bc they are seeing what fans have to say but they will always write out what they want. At the end of the day, if Vince and Creative dont like you, then screw you.I am a wrestling fan and Id love to see new guys with the push but I fear this may be temporary. Sheamus gets a title shot this month but next it will be back to HBK or HHH.

 

[beeflange]

Shamus is the best way to go and I actually think that they will put the belt on him because if they don't he is done, they now have to make him champ and then have him lose to Kofi and Cena is dropping the belt before Wrestlemania anyway to face the Undertaker. If Shamus loses he will lose all of his steam like Umaga did in the past. It will be a shocking moment the WWE needs. It is believable to see him beat Cena. It is unbelieveable to see someone like Rey Mysterio beat anyone and the fans cheered him to the top.

 

[NickB]

Orton didn't earn it?? Maybe he didn't have as long of a journey as a lot of other guys,but in my mind, talent wins out. He is by far, no challenge, the most talented guy this business has seen in years. It's just too bad he is stuck in this terrible era of wrestling. He would have fit in perfectly during the Attitude ear. But no, unfortunately for him, he is stuck with bums like Cena, Matt Hardy, Batista, and all the other misfits this company is shoving down our throats. This is the worst wrestling era EVER!!! P.S. who cares about that idiot sheamus, he means nothing.

 

[Rated PG Superstar]

I think its great there trying someone new in the main event. Sure hes not done much in the way of matches, but if Cena gives him a good showing at TLC then it could give him a rub to push on and become mid-card/main event player. My prediction is that he and Cena will have a 10 min match at TLC, and then he will have a strong showing in the Royal Rumble, be involved in the elimation chamber match, MITB at 'Mania, then have another push in the summer, so he has time to develop his character.

Now back to the point of the thread, its not always the fans who end up pushing creative to take a chance one somebody. Fans pop for Evan Bourne but hes not really going anywhere. Its purely down to talent and how high Vince Mcmahon is on you. Even if your getting cheered every week, if your not a solid worker you wont get a push e.g. Mr Kennedy. If somebody is obviously on a major push and being shoved down our throats, its always possible to have them get over with a good storyline, or if they actually have the talent and charisma to get fans to care. The difference between Snitsky and Sheamus is that Snitsky didnt stand out, was a sloppy worker, and wasnt getting much mic time. With Sheamus, the lad stands out with his pale body and bright red hair, is getting mic time in which he shows his aggression, and has been a solid worker so far. I think if people actually get behind him instead of doubting his ability, then it may end up that we have a new main eventer on our hands and fresh feuds to look forward to.