Putting Someone Over: Or, Why 99% of You Are Fucking Morons

[scomvp316]

I have been a wrestling fan for a very longtime. The one thing that frustrates me with todays WWE is a heel like ADR or Sheamus lose almost everytime against the face champion but with no build up like in Sheamus face turn they win the first time as a face against the heel champion. Just look at Sheamus face turn with no build up and not making much sense. I do agree to build Ziggler he should beat Cena in specialty matches. I don't think to build Ziggler up Cena kicks out of all of Ziggler's finishers but Ziggler doesn't kick out of the first AA. I do think Ziggler will not cash in MITB as he will turn face. The talent I cheer for are the ones that can actual wrestle. I have never cheered Miz as a heel and will never cheer him at anytime.

I think the best example of putting talent over is with Flair in his prime wrestling for JCP. All the guys he helped put over and most of the time Flair won those matches. I am not one of those fans that cheers for the heels and thinks that cool. Back in the day I enjoyed Dusty and HH but my favorite wrestlers of all-time are Flair,Savage,SCSA,and Punk. All guys that wrestle. I never booed Hart unless he was against Austin. My favorite face of all-time was Steamboat unless he was against Flair or Austin. Maybe I am just an old school fan but I cheer the talent that are very good wrestlers. Yes I do understand Dusty and HH weren't great wrestlers but I loved their promos seeing their promos most times were better than their matches just like with the Rock!

 

[dukes07]

I have been a wrestling fan for a very longtime. The one thing that frustrates me with todays WWE is a heel like ADR or Sheamus lose almost everytime against the face champion but with no build up like in Sheamus face turn they win the first time as a face against the heel champion. Just look at Sheamus face turn with no build up and not making much sense. I do agree to build Ziggler he should beat Cena in specialty matches. I don't think to build Ziggler up Cena kicks out of all of Ziggler's finishers but Ziggler doesn't kick out of the first AA. I do think Ziggler will not cash in MITB as he will turn face. The talent I cheer for are the ones that can actual wrestle. I have never cheered Miz as a heel and will never cheer him at anytime.

I think the best example of putting talent over is with Flair in his prime wrestling for JCP. All the guys he helped put over and most of the time Flair won those matches. I am not one of those fans that cheers for the heels and thinks that cool. Back in the day I enjoyed Dusty and HH but my favorite wrestlers of all-time are Flair,Savage,SCSA,and Punk. All guys that wrestle. I never booed Hart unless he was against Austin. My favorite face of all-time was Steamboat unless he was against Flair or Austin. Maybe I am just an old school fan but I cheer the talent that are very good wrestlers. Yes I do understand Dusty and HH weren't great wrestlers but I loved their promos seeing their promos most times were better than their matches just like with the Rock!

This is one of my main issues with WWE. There was no build for ADR to win. Had WWE been smart they would have ended the Ziggler/Cena feud right after TLC. He won, got the case, feud over. Done. But WWE cannot do that. They cannot just end a feud and had to insist on killing Ziggler's heat that they garnered from that match.

Another example is that the WWE brings back Rock to face Punk. If he wins it is silly. He does not need the title and Cena is at a point in his career where he does not need it either. Rumble could be used to put Punk over and legitimize him. It is short-term and while it might bring in short-term dough, is he really going to be there every Monday until WM? He will then leave right after WM....

Agree with Flair. He put nearly everyone over whether he won or lost. I am an old school guy too. They were better wrestlers. Also, I just think that if I turned on RAW from three years ago it would be pretty much the same thing that I watched today. Such as Orton beating Caesario....When the latter is better in the ring and a better talker. Also, he does not stick a Meth pipe up his ass like Orton does.

 

[Fire Marshall Bill]

Wins and losses don't mean shit if done right. Take for example a perfectly plausible booking of the RR on Sunday. The IWC's biggest hardon Ziggler is going to start at 1 or 2 (like either matters) and he lasts all the way until the end where it's just him and Cena in the ring (doesn't matter where Cena enters). Cena eliminates Ziggler and wins the RR. Are you really going to say that Ziggler wasn't put over? He went over 28 other superstars, and lasted all the way from the beginning. If that's not booked strongly, I don't know what is.

Dolph Ziggler's current feud with Cena has accomplished 2 things at once. It made Ziggler look like a threat to any main eventer. He took Cena to the limit in both his Raw losses and that's obvious. It also accomplished giving Cena some momentum heading into what's probably going to be a major feud for WM29.

Freakin heel marks need to get off their knees already.

 

[BaconBits]

Hmmm. Kind of odd when every male in the building boos Cena while Ziggler chants echo. It is hard to get over when you have to job week after week. Yet the fans still respond positively anyway. His PPV win was via cheating. Then he got clobbered the next few weeks. Like I said, nothing came of it.

But you don't respond to the fact that every Cena feud is the same. There is no drama. That none are good. That he no sells. That his promos are shit.

Get your Cena gear ready for when he becomes champ after WM, beating the Rock! Good times ahead. Hustle and Loyalty baby! Cena 4 Life!

Ziggler chants echo? Do you even watch wrestling?

Seriously. This might be the most delusional statement made in the history of internet wrestling forums.

Ziggler himself gets NO reaction. Vickie, AJ, they're over. Dolph, not so much.

Get a fucking grip man.

 

[dukes07]

Ziggler chants echo? Do you even watch wrestling?

Seriously. This might be the most delusional statement made in the history of internet wrestling forums.

Ziggler himself gets NO reaction. Vickie, AJ, they're over. Dolph, not so much.

Get a fucking grip man.

I have come to the realization that Cena fans have this sense of entitlement. If you knock the guy they pitch a fit. Now you may not be a Cena fan but my guess is that you are.

Ziggler has indeed gotten positive response and you can argue about smark crowds like some seem to do. Because only smark crowds would DARE to boo Cena despite getting booed this week and that was before one of the worst promos in a long time.

As for Ziggler chants echoing, sure there is hyperbole but to say that it is "the most delusional statement in internet (sic) history" proves that you don't get around much or you yourself need to get a fucking grip.

 

[Fire Marshall Bill]

I have come to the realization that Cena fans have this sense of entitlement. If you knock the guy they pitch a fit. Now you may not be a Cena fan but my guess is that you are.

Ziggler has indeed gotten positive response and you can argue about smark crowds like some seem to do. Because only smark crowds would DARE to boo Cena despite getting booed this week and that was before one of the worst promos in a long time.

As for Ziggler chants echoing, sure there is hyperbole but to say that it is "the most delusional statement in internet (sic) history" proves that you don't get around much or you yourself need to get a fucking grip.

Ziggler does, occasionally, get a small positive response from the crowd. It's not always some smarky ass crowd, though he gets a bigger response from them. It was one of the things I based my "is it time to turn Ziggler face" thread awhile back. But it's entirely one demographic that's causing it.

While both you and Bacon are exaggerating your points, Bacon is closer to the truth. Ziggler himself has not gotten a great crowd response very often. His ring work is good enough, but he doesn't have the presence or promo skills for it. At least not yet. If you want a perfect example of what kind of impact he's made for himself, find a video of when he debuted himself with the brown hair. It went so awful, that you could literally almost hear crickets in the stadium, and that was even with Vickie introducing him. It only lasted like 3 or so weeks before he dyed it blonde again because people didn't even know who he was anymore, he's just that generic. I'm not trying to bash him, I'm just stating what happened.

 

[braveh]

I have come to the realization that Cena fans have this sense of entitlement. If you knock the guy they pitch a fit. Now you may not be a Cena fan but my guess is that you are.

Ziggler has indeed gotten positive response and you can argue about smark crowds like some seem to do. Because only smark crowds would DARE to boo Cena despite getting booed this week and that was before one of the worst promos in a long time.

As for Ziggler chants echoing, sure there is hyperbole but to say that it is "the most delusional statement in internet (sic) history" proves that you don't get around much or you yourself need to get a fucking grip.

The Brooklyn crowd loved Ziggler that is one but that was because New Yorkers always hated Cena. They always booed him. What other crowds reacted to Ziggler?

For all the push, all the props Ziggler is virtually getting no reaction at all.

 

[THTRobtaylor]

Back to the OP... there is a big flaw in the logic and it's in the definition and difference between 2 concepts that sound similar but are worlds apart.

Getting Over and Putting Over...

Getting Over is what every wrestler has to do, on their own if they can but certainly with help from others if needed... if a wrestler doesn't achieve this then it's Future Endeavor time...

Austin did it by working with Bret Hart, by invoking 3:16 and becoming that ornery SOB in general... He wasn't put over by Bret Hart at Mania 13, Austin lost the match but got over in the process of doing so because of the manner of the loss.

Ziggler is in the process of getting over to a main event standard at the moment just as Cena did around that time he fought Big Show at Mania for the US title or when Batista was on the verge of turning on Evolution or Bryan when he started chanting Yes... there is a tipping point where you can say a wrestler has gotten over enough to get the big push and it's normally very clear when it comes.

Dolph isn't there yet, he is getting very close indeed but when the time comes to seal the deal it needs someone to... yep PUT YOU OVER... most of the time it's via losing a match to you...but not always just that... it's passing a torch.

Go back to Cena when he was on that initial Wrestlemania run against JBL... he hadn't won the Rumble cos Batista had, he had built up the momentum but it still came down to JBL dropping that strap to him in the 2nd most important title match of the night, something that wasn't necessarily in JBL's best interests professionally to do but as a professional and as someone (Eddie) did it for him, JBL passed it on and put Cena over convincingly, he didn't no-sell, he made Cena's win legit and memorable but even then it wasn't complete... Batista had been the guy who won the Rumble and travelled the Road to Wrestlemania successfully... the deal wasn't actually sealed till the following night when Chris Jericho put Cena over by "marking out" when he was drafted... go back and watch the video and look at Jericho (who was still face then) and his reaction and thus the fans... with one facial expression, Jericho put Cena over far more than JBL had done dropping the belt to him cos it made Cena the big deal on RAW, a bigger deal than Batista who was already a RAW superstar... Jericho was saying "I am a massive star here, but this guy is now bigger than all of us..."

When D-Bry won that title, Show put him over by lying in that ring prone but more so with his reaction, the crestfallen look in his eyes that contrasted Bryan's (and the fan's) elation. That is how you put someone over, it's more than a 3 count.

People say Taker needs to put someone over and I am one of them, absolutely someone should benefit from the streak ending because it only began with older stars like Snuka, Jake Roberts, Bundy and their ilk laying down for him, again there was no benefit for Snuka to job to Taker but it was the right thing to do and while each win solidified Taker's mystique it was not until JR started referencing "the streak" that it became important and more important and any title Taker has ever held. Taker's place in legend is long assured but while he has enough in the tank to still go, he needs to do what Snuka did for him to start creating the next stars by Putting them over... of course it has to be someone who has, to an extent gotten over already... he's not going to lose the streak to Curt Hawkins but there is absolute necessity for him to lose it to someone, maybe Zig, maybe Barrett or Cody... but someone and this year... not 2 years from now when he is too banged up for it to be worth it. It can be as tainted as it needs to be, the manner of the loss is not important...Taker has lost to half the roster before in Casket Matches etc... but it's how he then handles it... The ideal is for them to choose someone, Barrett or Bray Wyatt would be my choice and have Taker do the one knee thing after they beat him, however controversially. No sour grapes, no tombstoning to keep face... a proper passing of the torch and then he goes... no more matches, appearances etc as Taker... from that point he becomes Mark Callaway and that would put whoever it is more over than a simple win would.

 

[Moneyinc]

anyone hear the cena sucks chants last night on raw during his terrible promo??

Cena is 50/50 with every WWE crowd these days. He gets a pop with his initial music sometimes and then the crowd almost always starts to boo. The dude is the definition of corny. Let's do a freaking who likes Cena poll and see who's in the minority.

Young children/old stale adults like Cena

If you like him fine but don't say that people who don't are in the minority. I've talked to dozens and dozens of current wrestling fans my age about Cena and every single one of em dislikes him. Everyone knows Cena is cringe worthy. The reason he is the top draw is because the CHILDREN love him. Just like Hogan except Hogan had way more adult fans.