Pride Champions...what really happened?

[Via Armbar]

Anybody that considers themselves a fan of mma in almost any shape or form is familiar with the now defunct Pride Fighting Championship. It had, pretty easily, the longest and most powerful hold on the industry for a little more than ten years. When the UFC was struggling here in the states, Pride was striving in Japan. Many of the names you hear today spoken with such respect and notoriety were former Pride fighters or even champions. Many people, maybe even a majority, believed that up until 2007 Pride had the best fighters in the world. That's even over the UFC who were finally seeing some success and it was ever growing.

Without making this a history lesson on Pride (mostly for fear of Yakuza retaliation) I wanted everyone to take a look at the success and, in some cases lack thereof of former Pride notables once they left the organization. You have a wide spectrum of success when it comes to former Prider fighters, ranging from the still unbeaten Fedor Emelianenko to the less than stellar performances of Mirko Crocop. I'm going to try and focus on the former Pride athletes that went to the UFC as you can use a direct comparison to their homegrown fighters and more easily judge who truely had the best fighters in the world.

Antonio Rodrigo Nogueira is one of the most decorated champions in mma history. He has defeated heavyweight notables such as Tim Sylvia, Heath Herring, Randy Couture, Fabricio Werdum and Mirko Crocop. His resume reads like a who's who of top ten heavyweights. Obviously the likes of Sylvia, Herring and Crocop have fallen off the radar since the fight, but at the time all were top ten fighters in their division. He went the distance with Emelianenko and arguably put Fedor through the toughest fight of his career. He had joined the UFC in spring of 2007 and was announced to rematch Heath Herring, a man he had beaten in Pride. After a rocky start to the fight, Nogueira managed to pull out a unanimous decision victory and was rewarded a title shot against then champion Tim Sylvia. He went on to submit Sylvia via guillotine choke and capture the UFC Interim Heavyweight Championship. Afterwards however, things didn't go as well for Big Nog. He suffered a tko loss to Frank Mir and lost his championship at UFC 92. What was most notable about this loss was that Noguiera had been known for his strong chin and had never been finished in 30 fights. Mir was a slick bjj artist who's dynamic submission were well documented, but he was never known for his striking. Not only did people see Mir as an underdog, but if you would have said that Noguiera would lose by tko people would have scoffed at you. He did lose by tko however and would go on to beat Couture by decision and lose by vicious knockout at the hands of young bull Cain Velasquez.

Mirko Filipovic was at one time one of the most feared strikers in mma history. Known for his left head kick, he has defeated Wanderlei Silva, Heath Herring, Kevin Randleman and others. He won one of the most stacked Pride Grand Prix's in history in 2006. In his first UFC fight, he dominated and subsequently tko'd Eddie Sanchez. He would be announced to fight Gabriel Gonzaga in what would be a perrenial number one contender fight. The outcome of this fight is well known and a bad memory for Crocop fans. Gonzaga not only beat Mirko, he had knocked him out with his own patented left head kick. He would then lose to Cheick Kongo four months later and leave the UFC for Dream. He would return at UFC 99 and earn a victory against a less than top level fighter in Al-turk. Mirko would go on to fight and lose to up an comer Junior Dos Santos in a fight where many starting questioning whether or not Crocop still had anything left. Set to face Ben Rothwell at UFC 110, he eventually faced Anthony Perish instead and won by tko, which was a result of a cut. Even in victory, people questioned Crocop for not looking like the man that won the Pride 2006 Grand Prix.

Many consider Wanderlei Silva to be the face of Pride. A former middleweight champion in the company, Silva beat the likes of Quinton Jackson, Ricardo Arona, Sakuraba and many more. He gained notoriety as one of the most viscious and wild fighters in history, using brutal knees and stomps to finish off his opponents. Though he previously had three fights in the UFC ( against Tito Ortiz,Tony Paterra and Vitor Belfort respectively) he made the jump to fight for Dana and the Fertitta's in 2007. He would first face Chuck Liddell, a man who many considered to be the face of UFC and mma in America. Wanderlei lost Liddell in what would be awarded ''fight of the night''. This was the Axe Murderer's third loss in a row, the previous two ending in knockouts. Since then he would lose to Rampage Jackson and Rich Franklin, one by knockout and one by decision. He would score two victories against what many would consider nothing more than gaetkeepers or mid tier talent in Michael Bisping and Keith Jardine.

The final example I'll use is Maurico Rua. Shogun only sported one loss in his entire stay in Pride and it was due to a broken arm resulting in a tko. His wins in the Pride Grand Prix of 2005 is impressive to say the least: Quinton Jackson, Lil Nog, Overeem and Arona are all victims. For a long time, he was considered the best fighter at 205 in the world, and it was rarely disputed. He signed with the UFC in the summer of 2007 and was set to face Forrest Griffin. Although a fan favorite and a very capable fighter, Griffin was considered more of a draw than an elite fighter. The results of this fight shocked everyone that witnessed it. Shogun seemed to gas early in the fight and was dominated throughout most of the fight. Late in the third round Forrest submitted Shogun to everyones surprise. The fact that Shogun had suffered a knee injury while training drew the attention of many and Forrest's amazing win was chalked up to that injury. Shogun would have surgery after and would beat Mark Coleman in another lackluster performance a year and a half later. People questioned Shogun after his win just as they had started to question Wanderlei and Crocop. Did he still have it?

This is where things change. Rua would beat Liddell with an amazing knockout and earn himself a title shot against Lyoto Machida, resulting in one of the most controversial decisions on mma history. Tomorrow night they will rematch in a highly anticipated fight. Whether or no Shogun will win or not is yet to be seen obviously, but the fact that he is where he is right now can entirely dismiss the previous example. So whe it comes down to it, did Pride have the best fighters in the world at the time? Is their records since joining the UFC any indication of their real spot on the fighting totem pole? Or could this simply be an issue of age and progression of the sport. The UFC itself has plenty of example in Liddell and Couture, two men who were viewed as some of the best fighters in the world at one point but have slipped (Liddell moreso than Couture).

Where, in your opinions, do the former Pride champions fit in the grand scheme of things? Were they the best, or only the best of their organization?

 

[Ferbian]

Where, in your opinions, do the former Pride champions fit in the grand scheme of things? Were they the best, or only the best of their organization?

Very nice thread Armbar, I'll try to respond to it with my best of abilities, so I hope I don't come off as completely ******ed on the subject.

While certainly these MMA fighters from Pride has proved themselves in the business, and I have to admit the only name that springs out of the people that have been beaten is Randy Couture, but either way, he was a big deal as far as I know from his fights with UFC heavyweight champion Brock Lesnar, in what I believe was said to be some tough matches between tough opponents, so for a guy like Nogueira to defeat Couture is quite a feature I would say, even if he was a superior fighter, you should never underestimate people, upsets do happen.

And I'll try to draw some of my actual knowledge of subjects into this, using professional wrestling, as in the whole "just because you were HUGE in another promotion, doesn't make you shit in your new promotion", and therefore I think while the Pride fighters have proved themselves to be legitimate tough bastards in Pride, I think what really is to put them to the test to properly determine if they're "the best" or just "the best of the organization"

And again, my lack of knowledge steps in, because while I don't know whether they have properly proved themselves in the UFC branch of the business, I'll say if they have been able to prove themselves against home grown UFC fighters, or the people that are considered overall greats of the business, then I can clearly say they're qualified to be named "greats of the business" rather than "greats of X company"

Hope it's decent, I tried.

 

[jmt225]

I think there are legitimate excuses for why each fighter you listed has been unsuccessful in the UFC.

Antonio Rodrigo Nogueira - He might be only 34, but this man has been beaten to the point where he has to feel like he's 50-years-old. His fights in Pride were fucking BRUTAL, and he took BOAT LOADS of punishment all throughout his run. I think all of that is just now catching up to him. He's a lot like Troy Aikman in that aspect. Aikman had to retire in his early thirties because of the beatings he took throughout his career, and Big Nog's beatings were twice as worse and WAY more damaging. His chin isn't what it used to be, and his body has worn down. It's really time for him to hang them up, unfortunately.

Mirko Filipovic - I think with Cro Cop it's the cage more than anything. His style is best fit for a small ring, like Pride had. The cage is too big and he cannot pressure his opponents like he could in Pride and it throws him completely off. I honestly believe that's the only reason he has been unsuccessful so far in the UFC.

Wanderlei Silva - I firmly believe the Cro Cop knockout he suffered at Final Conflict Absolute changed him forever. The kick he suffered that night completely took away his chin, and it has cost him in his fights against Dan Henderson and Rampage since then. If it weren't for that knockout, I really think Wandy would have been a much tougher force to be reckon with in the UFC Light Heavyweight Division.

Mauricio Rua - Injuries, plain and simple. He badly hurt his knee before coming to the UFC, and against Forrest completely tore it apart. He stepped into the octagon too soon and it cost him deeply.

So, all these are fair excuses, if you ask me, but these guys' career, with the exception of Big Nog, are far from over. If Cro Cop can beat Pat Berry, then that shoots him back up the Heavyweight ladder; Wandy should have a good run at Middleweight, where they don't hit nearly as hard as the Light Heavies; and Shogun could perhaps be the next UFC Light Heavyweight Champion.

Also, let's not forget guys like Rampage, Hendo, and Fedor... all Pride Champions who have done well since Pride went under.

In the grand scheme of things, I honestly believe at the time, Pride had the best to offer in MMA. They're talent heavily surpassed UFC's. I mean, you look at the hot shots in the UFC at the time Pride was going... where are they now? Tito Ortiz, Chuck Liddell, Anderi Arlovski, Tim Sylvia, Matt Hughes, Rich Franklin, Sean Sherk... I mean, these guys aren't doing so hot themselves right now. The times just have changed and the sport has evolved. No one can deny the fact that Pride absolutely had the best fighters in the World for a period of time, no matter what has gone down with those fighters since joining the UFC.

 

[Y 2 Jake]

Multiple fights in one night, the frequency in which they fought, the lack of drug testing in Japan, all factors to consider when you look at how, on a whole, the Pride champions have been a comparative disappointment in the UFC.

By the time most of them had gone to the UFC they'd been around long enough to either lose their ability to take a hit, an accumulation of injuries had made them shells of their former selves or they weren't able to function as well off the gas.

 

[Slim Pickns]

In the grand scheme of things, I honestly believe at the time, Pride had the best to offer in MMA. They're talent heavily surpassed UFC's. I mean, you look at the hot shots in the UFC at the time Pride was going... where are they now? Tito Ortiz, Chuck Liddell, Anderi Arlovski, Tim Sylvia, Matt Hughes, Rich Franklin, Sean Sherk... I mean, these guys aren't doing so hot themselves right now. The times just have changed and the sport has evolved. No one can deny the fact that Pride absolutely had the best fighters in the World for a period of time, no matter what has gone down with those fighters since joining the UFC.

Excellent point. At the time PRIDE was acquired by Zuffa both companies had most of their main attractions start their decline. The aging PRIDE stars like Big Nog and Silva had to come over and fight a fresh crop of fighters. Nog did excellent taking out Sylvia and Herring but running into Cain Velazquez stopped him cold. Cain is arguably the third or even second best Heavyweight in the world so I fail to see how Nog failed in the UFC. Wanderlei Silva had a war with Chuck and you could make a case he deserved the decision against Franklin. He beat Jardine and Bisping to show he still has something left. Even though these guys didn't set the world on fire, it was hardly them getting dominated.

Now to build off of your point, what if PRIDE had bought UFC and Hughes, Ortiz, and Liddell had to go over there? PRIDE could easily come out looker the stronger organization in that battle.

Another thing people forget is that though Rampage didn't come from the merger, he was more a PRIDE fighter than UFC at the time he beat Hendo. It was billed as champion vs champion, PRIDE vs UFC, but we all knew Jackson as the UFC representative showed they already lost that battle. He came over and beat Chuck handily which should have been a PRIDE victory.

 

[Via Armbar]

Multiple fights in one night, the frequency in which they fought, the lack of drug testing in Japan, all factors to consider when you look at how, on a whole, the Pride champions have been a comparative disappointment in the UFC.

By the time most of them had gone to the UFC they'd been around long enough to either lose their ability to take a hit, an accumulation of injuries had made them shells of their former selves or they weren't able to function as well off the gas.

These are some valid points. Especially when you look at the most succesful Pride to UFC fighter, Mauricio Rua. He looked at first to be going to the way of Crocop but turned it around. He had never been knocked out in his tenure in Pride, unlike guys like Wanderlei. I won't address whether or not I believe them all to have been on the juice, but I will say a lot of them probably were. You can look at a guy like Shogun though and see that he was never overly muscular or ripped and pretty much still looks the same today as he did three years ago.

Something else to look at is how they started off in the UFC and how they lost it after a few fights. Guys like Crocop and Nogueira won their first fight and had an immediate step up in competition. Both times, they were against younger atheletes. The whole mma game has been evolving exponetially the past couple of years. I honestly believe that at the height of Pride, they had the best fighters in the world. The game just evolved and their was a newer, younger, hungrier breed of fighter waiting for them. I firmly believe that 2005 Nogueira would have beat a 2005 Frank Mir. Most would agree with that.

Jake also brought up an good point in the frequency of their fights. You can see a UFC fighter wait between 3 months to up to 7 months sometimes, even when an injury hasn't occured. In Pride, you could have guys fighting every 2 months sometimes. That definitely has to have an effect on the body in the long run. Especially when those fights would end in knockout. Doctors have stated many times that the more times you have been knocked unconscience, the more likely it is to happen again. That would definitely fit the career of Wanderlei Silva.