Pittsburgh restaurant bans children under 6

[LSN80]

A story local to my area has become a national one.

http://caffertyfile.blogs.cnn.com/2...under-the-age-of-six-is-that-fair/#more-17000

Effective this past Friday, McBains restaurant in Monroeville, PA has instituted a ban on children under 6. Owner Mike Vuick's main reasoning for instituting said policy was that children have become more unruly over the past decade, and that the noise level has not been properly contained. Because of the controversy it's created here, Vuick has become a national figure, giving interviews on CNN, CNBC, and news outlets across Canada as well. Here are some of his comments.

" There's nothing wrong with babies, but the fact is you can't control their volume."

"More parents then not get upset when the children are asked to behave. "All the screaming and crying has disturbed many of my customers".

"McDain's atmosphere is intentionally adult. We have a full-service bar, and we've nevered offered a children's menu."

"This is not a kid-oriented place," "There are many child-friendly restaurants that are a lot cheaper to go to."

In a sense, I see his point on many of these issues. If the restaurant has never offerred a children's menu, its obvious they've never tried to portray the restaurant as being child friendly. However, it also makes me wonder why it took a decade of noise issues to implement said policy. Further, the ban violates no anti-discrimation legislation. The age of 6 is an arbitrary one, but its one that's well within Vuick's right to make that call. Vuick has also noted that 11 of 12 people who've spoken to him regarding the policy have been supportive, and many of his frequent patrons have been pushing him to implement some kind of policy regarding children in some kind of way. In the world of "The customer is always right", it seems Vuick made the right call here.

But bloggers here in Pittsburgh are quite divided on the issue.

"Part of me thinks this is probably a good idea," said "Rob J." "I think we live in the age of bad parenting, and a lot of parents simply cannot keep their kids under control."

"The people with the kids running and screaming at restaurants are the same ones who would answer a loudly ringing cell phone at the table and proceed to chat, countered "Amy C". It should be a rude-people rule not a kids-under-6 rule."

Diana R said, " This is discrimination against people with small children. What's next? Adult-only subway cars? Adult-only buses? Movie theaters?"

"Yes. In fact, I would ask those parents with older kids behaving like obnoxious spoiled brats to leave." "Jennifer R" continued with, "Unfortunately, many that are yelling and screaming in the restaurants are older and should already have some manners! Somewhere along the line, someone decided that ill-mannered kids should be tolerated by all. If people wish to raise their children without respect for others, then they should not subject them to the public."

Obviously there's a bigger picture in play here, and that's parenting. Vuick was insinuating as much when he mentioned that children have been become more unruly over the past 10 years. As I noted earlier, hes not discriminating by law, but it's discrimination nonetheless. Any time you prohibit a certain group of people from entering your establishment, it is, in fact. But it makes me wonder if he's being unfair to those parents who do control their children. Ive been to McBains twice, and half of the people there were families with children. Ill be curious to see how his business does now that he's turned away a fairly large percentage of his patronage.

Owners and proprietors of other "posh" restaurants in Pittsburgh weighed in on the issue. Janet Mrylack, proprietor of The Grand Concourse in Station Square and my boss while I waitered in grad school, said the following.

"We do everything from newborns to 99-year-olds," said Mrzlack, "Everybody's welcome here."

I can speak from experience that what Mrzlack said is true. It's a more upscale restaurant then McBains, and it doesnt feature children's menus either. But we were encouraged by Mrzlack to cater to children, and handle unruly children and the complaints about them in the most respectful way.

Another proprietor question the decision from a different perspective.

"Unruly children have never been an issue here at Eleven" (also in the Strip District), proprietor Ron Ausnehmer said. "If anything, I think it's going to drive away a little bit of their business."

Another fair point here. If youre turning away a group of people that you've previously allowed, I think its fair to say that the parents of those children may decide to no longer frequent the restaurant because of the policy change. A woman who chose to go nameless re-iterated this.

"I handle my kids. They behave themselves when they're out in public. I won't be going to McDain's and I know a lot of people who won't be going there too," the woman said. "It's discriminating an entire group of people."

There are many factors in play here, so try and consider the issue from both sides. Let's do some talking about this, as anything here is fair game for discussion. Here's a few questions that can drive discussion here, feel free to answer them, or take the discussion anywhere you'ld like.

Although this isn't a case of legal discrimination, is it unfair to parents and their children who are well behaved?

If you were a parent with children that frequented McBains, would you continue to do so now?(without your children)

Do you think this will affect the restaurants bottom line in a negative way?

Feel free to discuss the questions, or any other thoughts you have surrounding this. Let's talk about this!

 

[Xemmy]

Although this isn't a case of discrimination, is it unfair to parents and their children who are well behaved? I guess technically it is "discrimination" against children, but that's his right as a business owner. And if it hurts his business, maybe he'll undo the policy. But until then, if it's your restaurant, you should be able to discriminate if there's real justification for it. Whining and complaining about how unfair it is that you can't take kids into a restaurant seems silly when there are plenty of places like that we can't take them. And in the end, the parents can take their kids somewhere else.

If you were a parent with children that frequented McBains, would you continue to do so now?(without your children) It'd probably lower my frequent visitation, because if I had kids, I'd be taking them out to eat. I wouldn't avoid the restaurant out of spite though.

Do you think this will affect the restaurants bottom line in a negative way?
I think it might. If it's a place a lot of families frequently go to he's going to lose some serious business- regardless if he's family oriented or not.

 

[Nate DaMac]

Although this isn't a case of discrimination, is it unfair to parents and their children who are well behaved?

Unfair? These parents really need to think this through. If you're at a restaurant that does not offer a kid's menu or a family friendly environment at all, why the FUCK are you taking your kids there? If anything, these pretentious parents were being unfair by taking their children to a place where they had to just sit in one place, be quiet, and eat "Adult" food.

If you were a parent with children that frequented McBains, would you continue to do so now?(without your children)

A restaurant that is clearly targeted at adults? I wouldn't be bringing my kids to such a place anyway. I get in fights with my girl's parents over this all the time because she always thinks we should take them with us and I say bullshit. There are other people in this restaurant who paid just as much to dine here as we did, they shouldn't have their atmosphere disrupted by a screaming child. Not to mention, I'm not an asshole. I don't take my boy to a restaurant he's not going to enjoy himself at. I'm not that selfish.

Do you think this will affect the restaurants bottom line in a negative way?

Maybe in the long run but I suspect that the recent publicity is giving them a bit of a boost in sales right now.

Honestly, I commend this man for showing some balls here. Now if only we could get through to the fucking morons who insist on banning smoking in every fucking establishment.

 

[JGlass]

I'm totally fine with this rule. If a restaurant doesn't want to have small children in their facility, that's entirely their prerogative. As the owner said, this is not the type of restaurant that's designed to be a family atmosphere, and now that there are no children under six allowed, it won't be!

I suppose the danger in allowing it is that more and more restaurants might follow suit until the only restaurant in Pittsburgh that serves children give them a toy with their burger and fries, but that's an irrational fear. Even if several restaurants follow suit with the "No kids under 6" rule, that would immediately open up a market for high class restaurants that are also family friendly. These restaurants will open up an entirely new niche market that can capitalize by offering a kid's menu, maybe a night where they offer a discount for kids... I'm sure a smart business owner will figure out a way to turn this craze into money.

 

[Uncle Phatso]

Although this isn't a case of discrimination, is it unfair to parents and their children who are well behaved?

o, big deal. Find a babysitter for your rugrat, and go out on a nice date. Just because you take your kids with you every ware doesn’t mean that you are a good parent. If two adults want to go to a nice adult upscale restaurant then they shouldn't have to worry about spoiled little brats making a nuisance. Here is the thing, Mcdonalds has ball pits for your kids, take them there. Don't take them to a restaurant with a fucking bar to have a set down meal.

When I would go to diners as a kid I wasn't allowed to run around or talk loud, because my parents said it was disrespectful. If I continued to, I would have been slapped in the mouth, and on many occasions I was. Don't beat your kid in public, but also don't let them run all over you. I can see the difference in children today. MY mom thought I was bad as a kid, she would have a heart attack if I was in today’s generation of 1-7 year olds. It started when I was in school basically, you aren't allowed to discipline your kids any more. We all know that, spankings were a regular thing. But now kids can run to school and tell them you have beaten them, and you will have the Social services breathing down your neck for a year or more. IT happens all the fucking time.

Simple thing is, if you know your child is loud. Or has a behavioral problem, hire a cheep babysitter you know. Or let them go over to a friends house for a play date. I know parents that do that, they trade "play dates" with each other to have a night alone.

You also have to think about the children. Maybe they just don't enjoy the "ADULT" Atmosphere. People need to take the dick outta their ass and quit jumping on OMFGZORZ HE'S BAD bandwagons. Why take your kids to a fancy ass place, when you and your children can have fun at a small family orientated restaurant or a fast food place with a children pit.

 

[¡Roján!]

First time poster in the cigar lounge. Don't murder me!
Definition of discrimination: ''The unjust or prejudicial treatment of different categories of people or things, esp. on the grounds of race, age, or sex.'' And, in this case it is definitely just, if he is losing business because of it, I fully agree with him banning them. My parents are restauranteurs and they do complain about the children too and also have been thinking of banning them. It drives alcohol-drinking, steak-eating adults away whilst chicken-nugget munching, coca-cola sipping kids who per head spend half of what the adults do swamp in. It makes no business-sense.
Although this isn't a case of discrimination, is it unfair to parents and their children who are well behaved? ''. Yes, it sort of is. But, remember this is just one restaurant. I have no idea what it is like but I presume it's a very classy restaurant and god knows, there are tons of low-end and middle-end food joints for children to go to to have a nice meal, in a relaxed environment. And, I don't understand why some parents would want to take their 6 year old child to a classy restaurant, anyway. They wouldn't appreciate it.

If you were a parent with children that frequented McBains, would you continue to do so now?(without your children) If the food was good, why not? A babysitter can alway be arranged. I wouldn't stop going just because my children aren't allowed in. It doesn't stop me going to movies, casinos and clubs, so why this?

Do you think this will affect the restaurants bottom line in a negative way? It really depends on the restaurant and the location. It could go either way, but as they don't do a kids meal it will probably affect them negatively. They still were paying full price. I don't know, it depends on a lot of factors.

 

[LSN80]

First time poster in the cigar lounge. Don't murder me!

I wont. Ill let other people do that bro. Keep coming back.

Definition of discrimination: ''The unjust or prejudicial treatment of different categories of people or things, esp. on the grounds of race, age, or sex.''

The legal definition is different then that of Webster's. The legal definition looks at things from a case by case basis. And because it's a privately owned restaurant, he can make restrictions, just as some upper class restaurants have a shirt and tie policy. Essentially, there's no difference.

I have no idea what it is like but I presume it's a very classy restaurant.

Not really. Its located off a golf course, and it's a very middle of the road restaurant in terms of pricing and class. You see as many foul-mouthed, drunken golfers as you do mouthy children, from my experience. Being from the area, Ive eaten there twice. Good food, reasonable prices, very nice bar, but not upscale by any means.

It could go either way, but as they don't do a kids meal it will probably affect them negatively.

I know from following the story closely that it hasn't, yet. In fact, the owner(Mike Vuick) reported that his best business of the year came on the 16th and 17th of July, the first two days that the ban went into effect. Id attribute the majority of that to publicity, and I expect it to cost him business, eventually. I couldn't believe how much the message boards surrounding the story were blowing up over this, mostly with parents upset that they had a) been frequent patrons, and b) their kids have always been under control.
My opinion? Those parents don't have a helluva lot of common sense. Why take a kid to a restaurant that doesn't offer a children's menu, and a third of its business comes from drunken, foul mouth golfers? From a practical and ethical standpoint, I dont understand why a parent would want to pay full price for a 4 year old who won't eat half of it, and subject them to foul language at such a young age.

Don't take them to a restaurant with a fucking bar to have a set down meal.

I agree. Worse still, its located off of a golf course, where many patrons have already been drinking before they enter the restaurant. Why would any "good parent" want to have their children around that? I question the parenting skills of adults who would find it ok to subject their 4-5 year olds to such behavior.

But now kids can run to school and tell them you have beaten them, and you will have the Social services breathing down your neck for a year or more. IT happens all the fucking time.

Inadvertantly, I think this is what Vuick is talking about. Would you consider it a coincidence that he's a retired schoolteacher that retired ten years ago? His reasoning for both retiring, and for the ban, has mostly been because of disruptive children. And parents hands are tied, in a sense, because kids do go to school and claim abuse. I was spanked as a kid, and I think I turned out ok. Now we have parents who are scared to even put their hands on their children for fear of bruising, so they let them run around with little control.

Even if several restaurants follow suit with the "No kids under 6" rule, that would immediately open up a market for high class restaurants that are also family friendly. These restaurants will open up an entirely new niche market that can capitalize by offering a kid's menu, maybe a night where they offer a discount for kids... I'm sure a smart business owner will figure out a way to turn this craze into money.

So far, McBain's is the only restaurant in Western Pennsylvania to have made this rule, and several classier restaurant owners have voiced their displeasure of the ban. But I think this ban, at least for a time, will help improve business. Why? Because there are many couples, be they young or old, who most certainly would like to go to a restaurant where no children are allowed. In the short term, I think its a smart business move, as it generates publicity as well as offerring a "one of a kind" type of restaurant. "No kids under 6" is a savvy business move in itself. It will probably bring in all kinds, who will feel free to drink, cuss, and eat more now that they don't have to worry about offending children and their parents.

A restaurant that is clearly targeted at adults? I wouldn't be bringing my kids to such a place anyway. I get in fights with my girl's parents over this all the time because she always thinks we should take them with us and I say bullshit. There are other people in this restaurant who paid just as much to dine here as we did, they shouldn't have their atmosphere disrupted by a screaming child. Not to mention, I'm not an asshole. I don't take my boy to a restaurant he's not going to enjoy himself at. I'm not that selfish.

And I believe you're doing the right thing here. I dont plan on having children, but if I did, I wouldnt dream of taking my kids to a place that targets adults only, even before such a rule is put into place. Babysitters are an option, as are restaurants that have children's menus, and are much more appropriate then McBain's. And it's as much about being fair to children as it is to customers, because its not a family friendly place, nor does it try to be.

I guess technically it is "discrimination" against children, but that's his right as a business owner. And if it hurts his business, maybe he'll undo the policy. But until then, if it's your restaurant, you should be able to discriminate if there's real justification for it. Whining and complaining about how unfair it is that you can't take kids into a restaurant seems silly when there are plenty of places like that we can't take them.

And I think he does have real justification for it. Because of the "unspoken" discipline rules that prohibit parents from disciplining kids as they used to, young children are far more unruly then they were ten years ago. Personally, I think it's unfair that so many people are up in arms about this, and have labeled Vuick as a "child hater". He's not. He's simply established criteria for what he wants his restaurant to be like, which was unspoken before. He wasn't encouraging families to bring their children based on the environment, now he's simply saying that there are more age appropriate, econimically friendly restaurants where parents can pay less, and their children can have their needs catered to as well. Personally, I applaud his decision.

 

[Kenny Powers]

Although this isn't a case of discrimination, is it unfair to parents and their children who are well behave?

Discrimination or not, I don't think one adult restaurant banning young children is a big issue to get upset about. There are bad parents and good parents and children of different ages that are either quiet or throw a fit. I don't think age has anything to do with someone being loud or quiet, but there is no reason to bring small children to an adult atmosphere like that.

If you were a parent with children that frequented McBains, would you continue to do so now?(without your children)

I never been to the place considering there isn't any good restaurants or bars where I live. However, if I lived in a heavily populated place in PA like Pittsburgh, then I'm sure I wouldn't have a problem finding a more family friendly establishment. Why would you take small children to bar/restaurant? I'm not sure how this restaurant is, but I wouldn't take children to a place like Hooters or Buffalo Wild Wings.

Do you think this will affect the restaurants bottom line in a negative way?

It may turn away a few customers, but I think it will attract a lot more adults that are there for a quick meal and drinks with friends and colleagues. I'm sure the adults drinking watching football games are much louder then the families with kids. If anything you would think that families wouldn't go restaurants/bars with children because of that very reason.

 

[Dwayne_Jason]

Although this isn't a case of discrimination, is it unfair to parents and their children who are well behaved?

I believe it is, that said, he sticks by the fact that the restaurant is an adult one, and therefore, children were discouraged anyway. Now if one were to inspect it to be true then the discussion would end right then and there. I mean think about a bar and grill-esque food place. Do you see a child under the age of six. If parents bring their children, who cry uncontrollably, and are under the age of six, they must bring them to Mcdonalds or some other place where children can have a good time.


However, here's a counterpoint: Do such places exist? I mean think about the classiest places around, they're all grills of some sort, and the business is moving towards an attraction towards young adults as opposed to 30 or 40 year olds, unless its a REALLY high end snobby ass place. So if a restraunt says "take them to another restaurant" what other restaurant is there to take them to? McDonald? So yes it is a discrimination to a certain point. I think the major concern over here will be "black people steal things, so no black people allowed!" policy that may happen, which, unless he's a racist idiot and has no sort of idea of how to run a business, won't do.

If you were a parent with children that frequented McBains, would you continue to do so now?(without your children)

I personally find that before the age of six, children should be eating home made food. It creates a sense of attachment not only to food but to the family as well. Also it helps lower obesity when you drink a gallon of fucking milkshake at the age of 4. I think kids need to get used to eating at home and not being forced to eat at home but rather enjoy it. That doesn't mean you shouldn't go out. But doing that shit every three days is just absurd. Its gonna condition your child with certain tastes and professional cuisine which will come back to bite you in the ass eventually. Now whether to eat at McBains or not, they said it themselves, its not a family friendly place. But yeah, if the food is good, I'll still go there without my kids. I live in Toronto so I doubt I'll have the chance.

Do you think this will affect the restaurants bottom line in a negative way?

Well they do reserve the right to serve. A s private institution, they are free to serve who they like, as long as its not discriminatory towards race, creed, sexuality, orientation, etc. Kids don't fall into the same category. If a child of 8 were to go to a strip club, they would tell him to get the fuck outta there and rightfully so, in the same sense McBains says that their restraunt are that of the adult variety (not sayin its a strip club, but man wouldn't it be cool to have a stripper in a cake meal in there?) and that instead of discouraging children, they just don't allow them in, sure its because of the noisy brats but the point is, if he says its an adult place, then parents shouldn't have been going in there in the first place. Now the validity of his argument is what needs to be inspected, but otherwise, it wont create a domino chain of "*****z not allowed!"

 

[ABMorales787]

Although this isn't a case of discrimination, is it unfair to parents and their children who are well behave?

No. If it were, movie theaters would be in danger too. There are in fact some that won't allow minors into R rated movies even with an adult. Not every place is suitable for children, regardless of being under parent supervision. I relative of mine owned a restaurant many years ago and he had a bar in it that opened after 7 pm. At that time, no one under 12 was allowed in the area, so it's not an uncommon practice.

If you were a parent with children that frequented McBains, would you continue to do so now?(without your children)

I'd probably leave my wife at home too.

Do you think this will affect the restaurants bottom line in a negative way?

No. Not one damn bit. In fact, it should be embraced. I've seen in my area many "stores" that are labeled as being family-friendly and such, but when you go in, you basically have to shove your way through a bunch of drunks just to reach the counter. What happens when people who can only judge from the outside walk in and see that it's not for people of all ages? Avoid discomfort for good parents and force bad one's to take notice.

 

[Dagger Dias]

It isn't unfair to parents of well behaved children. That restaurant wasn't geared toward children anyhow. There was no child menu to begin with and the obvious target demographic is adults. This would clearly be different if the place had been family oriented and offered a kids' menu. That's not the case though. If children potentially disrupted their business, then they have the right to not allow them in. It makes the place more enjoyable for adults. There's plenty of family oriented places for families with children to attend. It will not affect the restaurant's bottom line negatively, in fact I think the opposite will happen due to more adults feeling more comfortable coming there knowing they can be themselves and not filter their language or actions in front of children who might be there.

 

[Long Island Iced WXYZ]

I for one appluas this restaurant owner for taking such a risk.

And what I mean by risk is just look at the backlash.

It's his damn restaurant! I would love it if restaurants near me did something like this.

I've had many a meal ruined by unruly children, and the best part is when the parent(s) just sits there and acts like nothing is wrong.

Good for him.

 

[Jessie Lynn DivaGirl]

Being a Pittsburgher myself, I find this a very rude gesture to not only parents but to children and for that matter teenagers. Why? Because if you're going to prohibit a certain age group of kids from entering your resturant then you might as well ban all of us! Weget rowdy. That's our thing. That doesn't mean we can't eat!





Whoa, what'd I say?