Paige, UFC, And The Problem With Modern Pro Wrestling | WrestleZone Forums

Paige, UFC, And The Problem With Modern Pro Wrestling

The Dark Warlords

The Dark Warlords
Disclaimer #1: This thread was a pre written thread that i wrote about two weeks before the recent Paige turn. It would have posted when i joined, but you had to have a ten response deal before you can make a thread. When i got to the ten posts requirement, Paige made her turn. Because of the turn, i am liking more of the booking of Paige. I just hope that WWE books her strong, and towards more of her natural wrestling self from here on out.

Disclaimer #2: Like is said earlier. This was written two weeks ago. I saved it because i wanted to post it here. I respect and love the intelligent discussions that happen here on Wrestlezone site. I tried to make the post as short as i could, but i did not want to short change the views i have on this subject, and subjects like this. The original write up was twice as long as this one. This is the shortened version. All i ask is PLEASE give this a fair and complete read, and give your opinions to this topic. This is my first thread here, and i really would want to know what you think. Now here is the discussion. Thank you.




Wrestlezone, i am a newcomer to the forums and everything even though i have been a fan of this site for quite sometime. Fan of the articles whether i agree with what is said or not. Always wanted to register with the site to make posts and blogs, but never thought of a great topic of discussion to make as my first blog post. Well, after reading a few articles that i have come across on the internet, and other blogs concerning this issue, i thought that i would make a thread myself her at Wrestlezone. I am going to try to not make this a rant piece, but i am not going to limit my commentary to make sure i get my point across

The thread is concerning the newest female call up to WWE Paige. As well all know, she came up the RAW after mania, winning the Divas Championship. She went over in most of her matches, and lost the title back to A.J. Lee just 2 weeks ago i believe. Even though she turned back every challenger, and in my opinion defended the title quite well, you can tell there was something amiss about her run in WWE so far. You can tell that there was something just not clicking with her run so far. You can tell that there was something missing from the run that she has been on so far. And i have been on a few forums reading discussions on this. Some on the posters that i have read i have agreed with, and some i have not. But the ones i have not agreed with, some of the posters on that particular were not only critical, but there were downright cruel with what they were saying in reference to those that were trying to highlight their points as to why they were supporting her. It was comments such as those that made me think of creating a thread here in the issue of Paige, and how it ties into the larger problem concerning the sport of professional wrestling. I will try to keep this straight to the point, and not make this to long. But i will not shortchange my view on this situation on bit because of trying to keep this short. So the points that were brought up in the forum of inspiration that i shall discuss my view on are:

1. Persona Presentation

2. Wrestling Style And Psychology

3. Microphone Skills

4. Booking And Building Up And How It All Ties In With One Another

If i think of others, i will add them to the list as we go

First lets start of with Persona Presentation.

Persona Presentation

We all know that in WWE, they have had a long standing of what they perceive is what represents a WWE Diva should be. You know what it is. Blond, tan, and big boobs. You supposed to have a bubbly personality. Smile all the time, and look like your All American Girl type. Pretty much all of the WWE Divas that have been the most successful have been of that mold to a certain degree. It seems as if that is what WWE loves to promote. But their are your exceptions. You get to have your Litas, A.J. Lees, Laylas, and others like them shine. But those cases are a rarity in the business. Well, the other that can join the list is Paige. She is not a blond tanned barbie. She, by wrestling nature, is not someone that is of a bubbly nature. In some ways she is like Stone Cold Steve Austin. A BMF to the core. So i have a question for you on this topic. Someone that we have seen, if you have looked at their body of work, that has the look and mindset that she should they ever be presented as some bubbly schoolgirl type? I can not and will not speak for any of you, but in my mind when i look at someone like Paige, i am not thinking of bubbly schoolgirl. I am thinking of someone that could be considered the schoolyard bully. The type pf person that always sat in the back of the classroom, wearing a leather jacket, black jeans, black or white t-shirts, leather boots, and sunglasses. i look at her i think of someone that did not care about getting the best of grades. All she cared for was just looking cool and beating people up. Of, if she was not the schoolyard bully, she was the nose to the grindstone bad girl that beat up the bullies, and stood up for those that were getting picked on. The reason why i bring this up is because i personally do not believe that she has been presented to us in the most positive light. Her attitude does not seem to reflect what the look that she has is all about. I firmly believe that WWE is not presenting her in a manner that is beneficial to her, the fans, and the company as a whole. They are presenting her as something that she is not.

But isn't that the problem that faces WWE more than it should. Don't they always seem to have a knack for not really presenting their players properly. I can go back to one wrestler that is a prime example of this. The wrestler is Barry Darsow. Everyone who knows wrestling history knows he was apart of The Russians with Nikita Koloff and Ivan Koloff. He during that time was a NWA Mid Atlantic Heavyweight Champion and NWA World Tag Team Champion. But that history is not apart of the point that i am going to make. I am referring to when he was apart of WWE. He was a member of one of the greatest wrestling tag teams in wrestling history Demolition. He and his partner held The WWE World Tag Team Championship 3 times. He was being portrayed in a way where he can be dominant. But also the persona that he had at the time was one that he could or maybe anyone get really into. It was one that could be a true money making persona. But he left for a while, then came back under the persona The Repo Man. Funny persona, but one that anyone with a brain can understand is not one that fit him. It did not fit him to make successful. We all know what made him successful in WWE. We all know what fits him as it pertains to who he was in WWE. The same thing can be said about Stone Cold Steve Austin. He started his career as The Ringmaster. Anyone can see that the persona that WWE was trying to present was not going to be a success. But when he became Stone Cold Steve Austin, he was in the correct persona that would make him a star. Also you can tell that it fit for him to portray in the ring and on camera. He was finally being someone that represented him as much as possible.

When Kerry Von Erich was "The Modern Day Warrior" Success

Jerry Lawler as "The King" = Success

Bill Dundee as "Superstar" = Success

Nick Bockwinkel as himself = Success

The Road Warriors as themselves = Success

Ric Flair As "The Nature Boy" = SUCCESS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You see where i am going with this.

Steve Austin always said that the key to having a successful persona is being yourself with the volume turned up. Obviously when Paige was moved up, someone forgot to get that memo when she came out the RAW after Mania. The thing is she already had a persona that was and still is a money making one. It was one that fits her to a tee. It was The Anti Diva in NXT. She should have been the person that she was in NXT coming out on that RAW. Anyone with common sense would agree that the persona she was, and has been showing is not what fits her, and will bring the company money.

Which brings me to topic 2: Wrestling Style and Psychology

I have seen detractors of hers that says that she does not have a great wrestling style. They say that she is sloppy in the ring, and not a real good wrestler. Well i beg to differ. I feel there is a big difference between the real fans and casuals on this one. Casuals will watch her matches and don't appreciate them. Real fans will appreciate them. But i will try to give the casuals the benefit of the doubt because it is hard to get into a Divas match when they are not given the appropriate amount of time to truly showcase what they can do. I feel that WWE shortchanges the Divas by making them wrestle short matches because there are some that can actually wrestle really good in my mind. Natalya, Paige, A.J., Tamina, and a few others are really talented, and can carry a great match. the thing is they need to be given loner than 5 or 6 minutes to tell a proper story. I think that any match, whether it is a male or female wrestling it, makes a great story when the match is longer. Only people that benefit from a shorter match is Goldberg, and others like him. I am a huge Goldberg fan, but we all know his best work is in short matches. He is one of those wrestlers that is no nonsense and straight to the point. So it does not bother me when his matches are shorter.

I also think that the knocks are coming from those that do not understand different wrestling styles. Clearly when you watch her wrestle, you can tell that she brings a style that is not seen a lot here in The United States. Clearly she does a style that only those who are fans of William Regal, David Taylor, and Fit Finlay (All 3 i am huge fans of) would respect. It is a style based on The European Catch As Catch Can form of wrestling. As well as a UK World Of Sport Style (Johnny Saint and The Late Mick McManus showcase it well). There is a lot of stiffness to what she does. Her style is pretty physical which i like because it is cool to see more of a physical style being placed in the Divas Division. But this also leads to a much bigger and troubling problem that WWE has. I also feel that it needs to be corrected as soon as possible. WWE has always presented itself as the leader of wrestling/sports entertainment. They are supposed to be what wrestling at its highest level should be. Well if that is the case, then why are they not doing more to showcase more diversity in their in ring action? Why are they not wanting to showcase a wide variety of styles to showcase what the total gambit of pro wrestling is? With signings likes Paige from England, and the recent signing of KENTA from Japan, WWE needs to do more to modernize and diversify its in ring style so that it can truly showcase the best wrestling in this business. And i know what yall are going to say: "WWE is about entertainment not wrestling?" I know, but still they can at least show an effort of being more accepting of different styles in the business. If for anything else to endear themselves to those places that those styles are more prevalent, and they can make even more money for the company i believe. I think that at The WWE Performance Center they could do some special 2 week guest seminars to they can teach the rookies, and even long time veterans new techniques on those styles. Styles like: UK World Of Sport, European Catch As Catch Can, Japanese Strong Style, Mexican Lucha Libre, American Ground And Pound of course. Even some Mixed Martial Arts type of training that would translate to WWE Pro Wrestling. It should be open to both men and women to attend these seminars. It would be beneficial for the veterans of WWE to attend and learn new technique so that when WWE brings in these guys that are naturally trained in those styles, they can know how to make adjustments and adaptations in the ring against them while the new people are learning more of the WWE style of wrestling.

Another thing i feel WWE could do in this department is for them to do a better job in educating their fans about these styles of wrestling. I remember with WCW was around, despite things they did that was not the best, this is something they excelled at. They did a great job in informing their audience about all these various forms of the business. This is something that WWE could learn from. As far as Psychology goes, i think that the more WWE trains its wrestlers on the different styles of wrestling, as well as them educating their fans on these styles, then fans will be better able to understand and comprehend the psychology and the match structure in what they are watching.

Next Topic: Microphone Skills

I have seen on this particular forum that i was on reading the posters comments and stuff. The one thing that i read that made me think is their knocking of her mic skills. Now i do agree that she needs to improve in that area, and i feel that she will in every sense of the word. I think that anyone can see if they have eyes that she was trying to promo with a persona that you now does not fit her wrestling nature Going back to the first topic of Persona Presentation, She has not been doing what fits her wrestling nature. She is not a bubbly face schoolgirl. She is not Prom or Homecoming Queen type. She is being portrayed as those things that we all know is not who she is. I believe that her microphone should be based on the BMF that she has shown she can be. The person she was in NXT. No nonsense, so thrills, Punisher. Someone that is there to beat someone down and will not take names in the process. What she has been made to show in WWE so far is a joke if you ask me.

Question: Would you believe a promo would be successful if Ronald McDonald did a Darth Vader type of promo?

Personally i do not think so. If you want someone to succeed on the mic, they must feel that was is about to come out of their mouths is something they can believe. Her look is something that will make me never believe she can be soft and cuddly. Also another problem with her mic skills is not being allowed the needed on air time to continue to improvement of her skills. I have seen some old promos of hers, and i believed they were good. Reason, is because she was not being this soft teddy bear type. She was being a raw bone tough girl. Something i can feel more in my heart and soul than the bubbly stuff. Think about some of the greatest talkers in wrestling: Steve Austin, John Cena, Gino Hernandez, Ric Flair, Shawn Michaels, "The Universal Hearthrob" Austin Idol, The Rock, HHH, and others like them. If they was not given the much needed amount of on air time to improve in front of the world, they would have never been as great as they have become. That would have been a shame if that were to have happened. People need that on air time to improve and make the adjustments needed to adapt to the changing crowd from city to city.

Next Item that will tie it all in together: Booking and Build Up:

To me, it does not matter how great your persona presentation is, or everyone understands your style of wrestling, or great your mic skills are. If you are not properly built up to debut either from another wrestling company or coming up from developmental, you are not going to be starting out in the proper light. Now, even though i marked out when she debuted and became the champion, the purist in me will say that she should have been given a better build up than that. There should have been some video packages of her being on NXT or even the independent scene. There should have been at least some sort of showing of a match of hers from either NXT or the indies showing what she can do in the ring. A great one would have been her matches against her mother in England and Shimmer. It could have been similar to what WCW did when they brought in Jushin "thunder" Liger. They did both video packages and showed a match of his to build him coming to WCW to face off against The Late Brian Pillman for The WCW World Light Heavyweight Championship. They did that to get their audience familiar with Liger, and how he worked in the ring. Also to build the match between them to be something very special and delightful. But since they went the direction they did, they could have at least had her come out, cut a BMF style promo calling her out for a title match, they have a great 10 minute deal with Paige walking out as champion. That would have been better than what we got on that RAW. I also believe that you should always look at someone's total body of book to gauge on how the truly book them. Which leads me to the next part of this topic.

I half way understand that Divas have only 3 to 5 minute matches, but at least they did not have to make it so one sided as who was getting most of the offense in. I mean most of the time she was in matches with the other Divas, she was the one getting beatdown in the match. Not much in the offense department. It was not until the match against Naomi at Money In The Bank that she actually started to be allowed to have decent matches. Only to have another dumb short one the following night on RAW. How can you be viewed as a strong champion when you are the one not being placed in the role of controller in that match? I for the life of can't understand what would possess WWE to do something like that. Hold Up, i think i have an idea, but i will save that for another blog. For talent in my mind to be viewed as great or future greats, you have to invest your time in how to book these people in more of a dominating way. If you are not booked properly, then you will not have a very successful career. It does not matter how great you are, booking matters in the success or failure of a wrestler. Especially in this day and age.

When it comes to Paige, i am trying to think big picture and tell myself that all of this was designed so that the REAL SUCCESSFUL BOOKING OF PAIGE WILL START TO HAPPEN. Either at Battleground or Summerslam. But if not then i will just pray to GOD that someone smartens up, and understands that she can be a big deal and huge money maker for WWE.

I believe that if Paige and the rest of The WWE Divas are not booked in more of a respectful nature, then i truly think that the only savior of that Division and of WWE as a whole other than when HHH takes over, and that is not coming soon enough is none other than.............. DANA WHITE! Reason is due to the fact that if you believe what Bret Hart and Jim Cornette has said about Mixed Martial Arts and specifically The UFC, that is being what pro wrestling should be, then he would be the one that can get wrestling back to its original glory and prominence. Dana White and The UFC knows how to promote ring sports effectively. And they could be the ones that whips pro wrestling into shape. They would get it back to basics, showcase the stars in the proper light, showcase them as themselves, and build true successful divisions in his sport. I believe that he could turn The WWE Divas Division around by making it an actual division instead of eye candy. He would allow them to be who they truly are and want them to actually go out there and WRESTLE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Once again this is my first blog post. It may be round around the edges for it being my first one, but i will try and get better at these in future ones. Once again thank you for your time. Please read it all, and give me your honest take on what i have just posted.

Once again, give a complete read, and thank you.
 
I feel towards this post the same way I feel towards every post that's long. While it is possible to analyse wrestling this much, it's completely unnecessary, and the answer to why Paige's title reign is lacklustre is a much simpler one.

The problem with Paige's reign lies in two specific problems:

1) Paige has very little charisma, and it's harming her connection with the audience. A lack of charisma is a lot less obvious in a smaller, intimate setting like NXT. If you're a half decent wrestler, that crowd will pop for you. That's not a jab aimed at the NXT crowd; they're pretty awesome. But they're also fairly easy to please.

But it's not just with the NXT crowd. In independent promotions, it's a lot easier for guys who lack charisma to make it to the top if they're athletic and/or have a varied moveset.
But in WWE, with a big crowd, you need that charisma to be able to connect with the crowd. If you don't have it, you'll be quickly exposed (See: Axel, Curtis).

Sure, sometimes a gimmick change can turn you from seemingly hopeless into thoroughly entertaining, like the Rotundo brothers. But Paige has what should be a very good gimmick that people cheer for, and it hasn't changed all that much since NXT, despite what you say. She still screams, she's still portrayed as something different from the generic bimbos. She just doesn't have much personality to go along with it. And she never showed much personality in NXT, which, like I said above, was easier to hide in that environment. But it's up to Paige, not WWE, to find some damn personality within.

2) AJ left for a few months. Just like with male wrestlers, female wrestlers will always need someone to help get them over as champion. Trish and Lita did it for each other. Then Trish did it for Mickie James. Then Mickie did it for Michelle McCool. And so on. Unfortunately for Paige, there's only one active member of the roster right now that could help her get over. AJ Lee. Who was gone for three months while she was getting hitched. And that hurt Paige's reign a lot, because you can't get over if you're defending your title against opponents than no one cares about.

It's so easy to blame WWE for a wrestler's failure just because you like them. Look at how people on the internet react to Dolph Ziggler, for example. They think he's being held back because he's not a main eventer.

But it's rarely just WWE's fault. Sometimes it's WWE's fault, sometimes it's the wrestler's fault, sometimes it's other external factors. More often than not, it's a combination of things. As is the case with Paige. But with the heel turn, and AJ there to feud with, that could change.

Edit: Also, the point about Dana White is nonsense. Promoting MMA is miles apart from promoting wrestling. Mostly because wrestling isn't, y'know, an actual sport.
 
A lot to go over, but obviously well thought out. However, I do think that there are quite a few things that are left out, this isn't the first of such threads. One of those factors is that wrestlers like Kerry Von Erich, Jerry Lawler, Bill Dundee and Nick Bockwinkel were major stars during the territory days. Kerry Von Erich, while obviously a draw for WCCW, certainly wasn't hurt by the fact that his father owned the company. I'm not saying that he didn't deserve to be a major star in WCCW, he obviously did as he drew a lot of money for the company, but Kerry definitely had a leg up that the VAST majority of pro wrestlers who've come and gone didn't. Lawler & Dundee were huge stars primarily in Memphis, Bockwinkel was a star in the AWA, etc. These guys were all stars in their corners of the world, but they weren't well known outside of a handful of territories.

The business has changed such a great deal, due in no small part to easy access to the internet essentially obliterating the remaining mystique of professional wrestling, and what worked 30 years ago wouldn't get over with today's crowd. If you were to Ric Flair at 30 years of age with exactly the same look, persona, in-ring style and put him in a WWE ring today, I honestly believe he'd get every bit as much crap as some of the modern guys get. Flair's slow, methodical pace would likely be given the "boring" treatment by a healthy number of fans. He'd also be called "fat" or that he doesn't have "the look", that he has very little athletic ability, etc. Flair's great personality and charisma would ultimately be able to get him over, but he'd have more than his fair share of detractors just as every other modern star does. He most certainly wouldn't be worshipped as the genuine pro wrestling god that he's become, not in this day and age.

If someone isn't into the product, I understand. It's not for everyone, which is completely natural. However, there are FAR too many who simply rely on the usual complaints like "WWE creative doesn't know what it's doing" or "Vince sux" or "Vince needs to step down" and numerous others to such a degree that it's become a crutch. I'm not saying that they don't do crappy stuff sometimes because we all know they do, EVERY wrestling company has, currently is and/or will do so in the future. There's no getting around it. Sometimes though, I think the problem does lie mostly with some fans themselves as they're so interested in playing armchair booker fantasy booking their own angles and storylines that they'll crap all over anything that doesn't EXACTLY match up with what they think should happen. Enjoyment of pro wrestling relies on suspension of disbelief and if you're unwilling to do that, then I don't see how anyone can enjoy it. I also believe that a lot of fans simply have absolutely impossibly high expectations. It's as if every angle has to go down exactly right, every match has to be damn near a masterpiece, every promo setting new standards, etc. Essentially, every show has to be an epic or they'll crap all over it. A match can't just be "good" or a promo can't just be "solid" anymore.

As far as various styles go, considering how intense WWE's schedule is and the toll it takes on the bodies of the wrestlers, there are some styles WWE does prefer to avoid. For instance, guys who just do ton after ton of high risk stuff probably won't last long in WWE before getting hurt. They'll be on the road some 300+ days out of the year, it's part of the trade off for making big money. In NXT during his early days there, Sami Zayn was asked to cut back on the number of high spots so as to condition himself a bit for if/when he gets to the main roster because officials were concerned he would burn himself out, which he probably would have at times. A lot of styles also have a lot of very risky moves that can easily lead to head and neck trauma. Considering what happened with Chris Benoit and the increased awareness of head and neck trauma in pro sports in the years since due to further research, WWE wants to protect talent as much as possible while simultaneously covering its own collective ass.

Another thing is that professional wrestling was MUCH different 25-30 years ago and promotions in this day and age can't be run as they were during the Territory Era. Jim Cornette believes that it can even to this day despite the fact that he tried doing it exactly that way with Smoky Mountain Wrestling. SMW went tits up because it didn't make any money and the financial backer for the promotion, legendary music producer and co-founder of Def Jam Records Rick Rubin, grew tired of flushing money down the toilet. The greatly expanding access to cable television and syndication contributed to the death of the territory system as much as the WWF did, maybe even more as numerous companies were either out of business or on the verge of going out of business before Vince took over from his father.

As far as the Divas go, in all honesty, WWE has made a lot of genuine progress in treating them in a more meaningful way. Perhaps the first genuinely relevant and good Diva match that I can remember seeing on WWE programming in a good many years was at the Payback ppv last year between AJ Lee and Kaitlyn. It was a very pleasant surprise and the two of them wrestled a genuinely good, meaningful wrestling match. For the first time in forever, two ladies were given 10 minutes to just go out there and wrestle. There were no pillows to use, they weren't running around in bikinis, etc. The relevance of the Divas can be attributed to Triple H as it's one of the changes he's made. If you look at how women are used in NXT in comparison to how they've been used in WWE for the vast majority of its existence, it's like two completely different worlds. If/When Triple H ultimately takes over from Vince, I have a feeling he'll ultimately elevate the women further. As of right now, Vince still ultimately calls the shots, he has the final say. For instance, while I don't know this for an absolute fact, I have a feeling that Eva Marie's presence on the main roster was a decision made by Vince because God knows the girl can't wrestle for shit.
 
The fatal flaw in the 'Wrestling should be like MMA' school of thought is that you can't make the fans unsee the week to week soap opera style that we've become accustomed to in favor of the old way.

In UFC the fighters compete twice a year. You're not going to get away with the same basic storytelling in wrestling because the wrestlers are out there every week. You can't just have John Cena vs. Daniel Bryan and get people excited the way you can get people excited for an Anderson Silva fight. There has to be storylines & drama behind it.

Before the mid 90s you could pull it off. You could keep Cena and Bryan apart for a long time without them crossing paths in the ring and then have them meet at a big match ala todays UFC. But once WCW launched Nitro and the Monday Night Ratings War came along fans got used to everything but the kitchen sink being thrown at them. Now we expect the top stars to collide every week on TV. There's no turning back.
 
A little Tip: Avoid making such a long thread again in the future. Not just because its a busy life and very few people will take time to read through the whole thing, but also because it gets really boring after a while. Skip the unnecessary parts. If everything really needs to be said, then underline the important parts. Especially when the topic itself is boring.

Like Blade above, I too think Paige lacks charisma. Almost everything she does is awkward. Even KENTA's interview with Renee Young seemed smarter in comparison. She has no presence whatsoever; she seems like a very timid, uninteresting figure in a big world. The trademark scream makes me cringe. Most of the time I can't tell if she is smiling or crying... Even her tweets are awkward. "We're still cool right? #frenemies". The heel turn, tweener turn, rage turn, whatever turn isn't going to do much for her if she doesn't improve in the areas where she is lacking.

She is an okay wrestler but not anything special either. AJ Lee, Nattie, Emma, and (I dare say) Naomi are better wrestler/character combinations than her, and if you watch TNA Knockouts wrestle, then she seems even more ordinary. The Paige Turner is a weak-looking, impact-less finisher. Her entrance theme doesn't stand out, the can't speak on the mic, she lacks confidence, her acting is bad as well. Her first title reign was a failure... If the above-mentioned names and shortcomings stick around, she'll have a hard time becoming Divas champion anytime soon.

About UFC, I don't even have a clue what the relation is here with Paige. This is WWE, not real wrestling. The audience cares about the character and stories as much as they care about the action and drama. Without distinct characters, we'd have a roster full of Tyson Kidd's and Curtis Axel's doing fake wrestling. You totally ruined it in the final paragraph man.
 
A little Tip: Avoid making such a long thread again in the future. Not just because its a busy life and very few people will take time to read through the whole thing, but also because it gets really boring after a while. Skip the unnecessary parts. If everything really needs to be said, then underline the important parts. Especially when the topic itself is boring.

Like Blade above, I too think Paige lacks charisma. Almost everything she does is awkward. Even KENTA's interview with Renee Young seemed smarter in comparison. She has no presence whatsoever; she seems like a very timid, uninteresting figure in a big world. The trademark scream makes me cringe. Most of the time I can't tell if she is smiling or crying... Even her tweets are awkward. "We're still cool right? #frenemies". The heel turn, tweener turn, rage turn, whatever turn isn't going to do much for her if she doesn't improve in the areas where she is lacking.

She is an okay wrestler but not anything special either. AJ Lee, Nattie, Emma, and (I dare say) Naomi are better wrestler/character combinations than her, and if you watch TNA Knockouts wrestle, then she seems even more ordinary. The Paige Turner is a weak-looking, impact-less finisher. Her entrance theme doesn't stand out, the can't speak on the mic, she lacks confidence, her acting is bad as well. Her first title reign was a failure... If the above-mentioned names and shortcomings stick around, she'll have a hard time becoming Divas champion anytime soon.

About UFC, I don't even have a clue what the relation is here with Paige. This is WWE, not real wrestling. The audience cares about the character and stories as much as they care about the action and drama. Without distinct characters, we'd have a roster full of Tyson Kidd's and Curtis Axel's doing fake wrestling. You totally ruined it in the final paragraph man.


Point NO#1: I said this the disclaimer that this was a pre written post from two weeks ago. I also said the the original write up of this was twice as long as this one. This one is the shortened version of the original. I also said that since this was my first one, that i was rough around the edges, and that any others from me would be better. I also said that i did not want to short change my views while trying to shorten it. My next threads, if i make any, will be shorter than this one, but i will NEVER compromise my points because of length. I also stated that the recent event, I.E. heel change of Paige, have softened my stance somewhat. But not by much. I am going to like i said try to see a big picture deal, and see if this will pan out the way i hope it is supposed to. Now i will go to my next point where i will take your last statement and make it apply to your others.

Point NO#2: The UFC deal is something to be brought up because of one thing: persona presentation. Dana white and the UFC does a great job in presenting their talent's personas by allowing those personas to be based on either their real life personality or the personality they are the most comfortable with in regards to their profession. Dana White allows his people to go out their and present themselves in what is a natural fit for that person. To my knowledge, he would not want someone to be something that they are not.

Question: Would he have told Ronda Rousey, Chael Sonnen, Nick Diaz, Nate Diaz, Jon Jones, Anderson Silva, Tito Ortiz, Quinton Jackson, Georges St. Pierre, Ken Shamrock, and others like them to be something that they are not?

Answer: No he would not. He is smart enough to know that the marketability of that fighter is tied not just in the fighting skill, but also in the authenticity of the persona that the fighters showcase for the world. I believe that is not only fight game 101, but also pro wrestling 101 as well. Dana White would be smart enough to understand that these fighters, or in pro wrestling's case the wrestlers, need to convey an image that is a more natural fit for them to be able to showcase to the world.

All the above names would definitely make it in Professional Wrestling if they are allowed to convey an image and persona that is that natural fit for them. Especially Chael Sonnen, Tito Ortiz, and Ronda Rousey.

Like i said earlier even Bret Hart and Jim Cornette have made references in their own way as to how MMA, especially UFC, is what pro Wrestling should be. Here are some videos that i have found that can support this:

Bret Hart:
[YOUTUBE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iNAv6vcmEZ0[/YOUTUBE]

[YOUTUBE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xyfr_bMThuU[/YOUTUBE]

Jim Cornette:

Watch video at 1:35 in to it:
[YOUTUBE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WBsxKwqVdqw[/YOUTUBE]

[YOUTUBE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6kIrScQeDYw[/YOUTUBE]

Even Paul Lazenby has even chimed in on this, and said something that i agree with about MMA being the new Pro Wrestling:

[YOUTUBE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LhkTz_K_P1I[/YOUTUBE]

MMA, especially UFC, is how pro Wrestling should be. I gave you three names, but i bet there is more in the business that believe that same way. Ole Anderson said it best i believe what he said that: "Pro Wrestling is supposed to be a simulated fight." And i could not agree more. If WWE promoted their people in the same manner, then things would be better because what you would see from those people is would be a natural fit for that person to get over. Here is how it would effect Paige.

If Dana White, having wrestling minded people giving him ideas on how it successfully implement his vision based on what i have stated, then Paige's booking would have been better then it has been since being called up from NXT. I believe that we would not have seen this generic, cookie cutter, giggly babyface that we saw the day after Wrestlemania. I believe that we would have seen a Paige that would have been more like she was in NXT as well as her days as Britani Knight:

1. Ruthless

2. Vicious

3. No Nonsense

4. Straight Forward

5. Bad Ass

Basically her attitude, personality, and persona would have been almost Stone Cold like. I am not going to say that she would have been Stone Cold, just Stone Cold like. Anyone that have done some study of her body of work would know that would have been the best fit for her because that role is more of a natural fit for who she is as a wrestler. I think that she would have been what they are i believe doing now with her but instead of it being now, it would have happened that moment she debuted after Mania.

The timidness, awkwardness, acting, confidence, charisma, and presence that you say she is lacking in would not be seen, or as prevalent, if she was brought in to be a bad ass from the start. Dana White i feel would have been more on top of it, and would have said that if she is going to make the splash that i want for her to have, then she needs to be booked in a manner that is more of a natural fit for her to be in.

Steve Austin said to get over in wrestling: "You need to be yourself with the volume turned up". I feel that Dana White would have noticed that, and made sure that she was placed in the role that is more of a natural fit for her going on her past, and of course who her parents are.

Your response sir.
 
Better Version Smark Madden

Point NO#1: I said this the disclaimer that this was a pre written post from two weeks ago. I also said the the original write up of this was twice as long as this one. This one is the shortened version of the original. I also said that since this was my first one, that i was rough around the edges, and that any others from me would be better. I also said that i did not want to short change my views while trying to shorten it. My next threads, if i make any, will be shorter than this one, but i will NEVER compromise my points because of length. I also stated that the recent event, I.E. heel change of Paige, have softened my stance somewhat. But not by much. I am going to like i said try to see a big picture deal, and see if this will pan out the way i hope it is supposed to. Now i will go to my next point where i will take your last statement and make it apply to your others.

Point NO#2: The UFC deal is something to be brought up because of one thing: persona presentation. Dana white and the UFC does a great job in presenting their talent's personas by allowing those personas to be based on either their real life personality or the personality they are the most comfortable with in regards to their profession. Dana White allows his people to go out their and present themselves in what is a natural fit for that person. To my knowledge, he would not want someone to be something that they are not.

Question: Would he have told Ronda Rousey, Chael Sonnen, Nick Diaz, Nate Diaz, Jon Jones, Anderson Silva, Tito Ortiz, Quinton Jackson, Georges St. Pierre, Ken Shamrock, and others like them to be something that they are not?

Answer: No he would not. He is smart enough to know that the marketability of that fighter is tied not just in the fighting skill, but also in the authenticity of the persona that the fighters showcase for the world. I believe that is not only fight game 101, but also pro wrestling 101 as well. Dana White would be smart enough to understand that these fighters, or in pro wrestling's case the wrestlers, need to convey an image that is a more natural fit for them to be able to showcase to the world.

All the above names would definitely make it in Professional Wrestling if they are allowed to convey an image and persona that is that natural fit for them. Especially Chael Sonnen, Tito Ortiz, and Ronda Rousey.

Like i said earlier even Bret Hart and Jim Cornette have made references in their own way as to how MMA, especially UFC, is what pro Wrestling should be. Here are some videos that i have found that can support this:

Bret Hart:
[YOUTUBE]iNAv6vcmEZ0[/YOUTUBE]

[YOUTUBE]Xyfr_bMThuU[/YOUTUBE]

Jim Cornette:

Watch video at 1:35 in to it:
[YOUTUBE]WBsxKwqVdqw[/YOUTUBE]

[YOUTUBE]6kIrScQeDYw[/YOUTUBE]

Even Paul Lazenby has even chimed in on this, and said something that i agree with about MMA being the new Pro Wrestling:

[YOUTUBE]LhkTz_K_P1I[/YOUTUBE]

MMA, especially UFC, is how pro Wrestling should be. I gave you three names, but i bet there is more in the business that believe that same way. Ole Anderson said it best i believe what he said that: "Pro Wrestling is supposed to be a simulated fight." And i could not agree more. If WWE promoted their people in the same manner, then things would be better because what you would see from those people is would be a natural fit for that person to get over. Here is how it would effect Paige.

If Dana White, having wrestling minded people giving him ideas on how it successfully implement his vision based on what i have stated, then Paige's booking would have been better then it has been since being called up from NXT. I believe that we would not have seen this generic, cookie cutter, giggly babyface that we saw the day after Wrestlemania. I believe that we would have seen a Paige that would have been more like she was in NXT as well as her days as Britani Knight:

1. Ruthless

2. Vicious

3. No Nonsense

4. Straight Forward

5. Bad Ass

Basically her attitude, personality, and persona would have been almost Stone Cold like. I am not going to say that she would have been Stone Cold, just Stone Cold like. Anyone that have done some study of her body of work would know that would have been the best fit for her because that role is more of a natural fit for who she is as a wrestler. I think that she would have been what they are i believe doing now with her but instead of it being now, it would have happened that moment she debuted after Mania.

The timidness, awkwardness, acting, confidence, charisma, and presence that you say she is lacking in would not be seen, or as prevalent, if she was brought in to be a bad ass from the start. Dana White i feel would have been more on top of it, and would have said that if she is going to make the splash that i want for her to have, then she needs to be booked in a manner that is more of a natural fit for her to be in.

Steve Austin said to get over in wrestling: "You need to be yourself with the volume turned up". I feel that Dana White would have noticed that, and made sure that she was placed in the role that is more of a natural fit for her going on her past, and of course who her parents are.

Your response sir.
 
MMA, especially UFC, is how pro Wrestling should be.

Here's the counter to your argument:

Vince McMahon would laugh at your suggestions, tell you that you know nothing about his business, that he knows everything since he's the most successful promoter of all time, and now GTFO of his office.

I think that there are two parts to your argument: One that looking more at the different wrestling styles and comparing/contrasting those in matches would lead to a more UFC style experience in the WWE. I like the idea, but I go back to the above comment.

McMahon doesn't believe in "other" styles of wrestling...there's just the WWE style. People may bring aspects of other promotions or styles to their in-ring game, but the WWE trains a lot of that stuff out of them. Has this made for a blander experience, IMO? Yes. I think the WWE would say that this makes for a more predictable experience, which is what they are looking for.

The second argument is that more needs to be done with the Divas, and Paige in particular, because they're trying to shoehorn her into a persona that doesn't fit.

I haven't particularly been impressed with Paige's work in the ring, but others have, so okay...maybe I'm just missing something there. She's not the first wrestler to be saddled with a dopey white bread generic face persona. Rocky Maivia aka The Rock started with the exact same thing, and got booed relentlessly for it. So things could change for Paige, and may now that she's a heel.

The problem is that the WWE doesn't really give a shit about the Divas. They are content to have one or two stars at any given time who they can put in title matches, and the rest can do whatever. There are two types of Diva characters: The good girls and the crazy bitches who put an emphasis either on crazy or bitch. People have griped lately about racism in the WWE...it pales to the level of misogyny present in the company. There is a reason Divas head for the exits after about 3 or 4 years in the company: Beth Phoenix, Maryse, Kaitlyn...they're just a few of the ones who said "fuck it." Why? Because there is really no future for a WWE Diva beyond 3 or 4 years. That's why I'm kind of surprised that A.J. Lee came back at all, but I'll be willing to bet she departs again in the next year.

So Paige may get a makeover persona-wise but to what end?
 
sorry but if dana white was in charge thered be no angles or stories, just a bunch of cold matches like most of raw now, and fans would complain that the divas have no story. what would "save" them is good consistent writing with continuality and character development, dana knows nothing of those
 
Dark Warlords, I like what you had to say…I like Paige, though I didn't see her matches in NXT but I'll definitely look them up..

One thing that would help Paige tremendously is if WWE got rid of scripted promos on their main shows..That never made sense to me how NXT promos aren't scripted, yet as soon as they get on Smackdown/Raw all their promos are scripted…As far as I'm concerned, if NXT promos aren't scripted then Smackdown/Raw promos shouldn't be scripted either..I'd like to hear Paige cut unscripted promos on Raw showing her true personality instead of whatever some Hollywood writer thinks she should say and maybe then we'd realize that there's depth to her character..
 
Dark Warlords, I like what you had to say…I like Paige, though I didn't see her matches in NXT but I'll definitely look them up..

One thing that would help Paige tremendously is if WWE got rid of scripted promos on their main shows..That never made sense to me how NXT promos aren't scripted, yet as soon as they get on Smackdown/Raw all their promos are scripted…As far as I'm concerned, if NXT promos aren't scripted then Smackdown/Raw promos shouldn't be scripted either..I'd like to hear Paige cut unscripted promos on Raw showing her true personality instead of whatever some Hollywood writer thinks she should say and maybe then we'd realize that there's depth to her character..

I've never understood why Paige is seen as a legitimate wrestler.

She looks like an average person out there. I need someone with an athletic physique, someone who at least looks like they can kick a little butt.
 

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