Once Upon a Time in America is the Greatest Gangster Film Ever Made

[X]

I have said it. I know many of you will jump to your feet, fists ready for a fight screaming about your favorite Scorsese film or the Godfather, but I have come to the conclusion with a recent viewing of Sergio Leone's masterpiece Once Upon a Time in America that this film is the single greatest ever made to tackle the subject matter of organized crime, street gangs, or the Mafia. For a long time I've always stuck by my guns that Scorsese had made the best of the modern gangster films, but I can see I was clearly wrong in the case of Leone's last film before his death.

I'm talking about the four and a half hour long cut of the film, let me just clarify that. The film was originally butchered by the studios and edited to a 2 hour running time, and the film was rightfully panned and flopped because it was edited to pieces and Sergio's masterpiece of a film was completely lost in the shuffle. Switching back and forth between the 20s, 30s, and 60s like in a hazy opium-induced dream (some people even theorize the entire film could be an extended dream that the main character Noodles [played by Robert De Niro] has while high on opium). James Woods and Robert De Niro are so fucking good in this film, it's downright frightening. Never have I seen a film tackle the topics of friendship and betrayal with more emotional range and sheer brutality that Leone shows in this film.

I know a nearly five hour film about Jewish gangsters might not interest everyone, but if you've never seen the film and you consider yourself a fan of films like Goodfellas, Casino, Scarface, etc, I HIGHLY recommend you view this film. I really do believe it to be the greatest representation of the prohibition era gangsters without any of the morbid romanticism some films take in their violence.

So, anyone care to agree? Disagree? TDigs, I'm looking at you, don't let me down, I want atleast ONE person to respond to this thread.

 

[Y 2 Jake]

No characters as iconic as Don Corleone, not as quotable as Goodfellas, a soundtrack that doesn't match Mean Streets, no brilliant overracting like Carlito's Way, no violence as memorable as in Casino, no Christopher Walken, not as enjoyable as The Departed, two nasty rape scenes and and overlong.

No, I don't think it's the greatest gangster film ever made. It might have more scope than The Godfather, but that doesn't make it better.

 

[X]

No characters as iconic as Don Corleone

Being iconic is overrated. Citizen Kane is iconic, but it sure as fuck isn't the greatest film ever made.

not as quotable as Goodfellas

Only because not as many people have seen it. If Once Upon a Time in America had been as popular as Goodfellas was I'm sure people would be quoting James Woods and Robert De Niro in this film.

a soundtrack that doesn't match Mean Streets

Nonsense, Mean Streets may have a better selection of rock and doo wop songs from the 60s but Ennio Morricone supplied most of the score for America and he's far and away the greatest film composer to ever live.

no brilliant overracting like Carlito's Way

I consider that a good thing since Carlito's Way is vastly overrated.

no violence as memorable as in Casino

Huh? Have you seen Once Upon a Time in America Jake? It's probably one of the most violent mainstream gangster films ever made, much moreso than Casino or any other of the Scorsese gangster films, or the Godfather trilogy. Sergio Leone was known for being bloodthirsty and America was no different, the violence in the film is gritty and realistic and downright disturbing at times. There are multiple stabbings and shootings in the film among other violent acts. Really a brutal film.

no Christopher Walken, not as enjoyable as The Departed, two nasty rape scenes and and overlong.

Christopher Walken? Meh. Not really a gangster film actor, King of New York was good but nothing spectacular. The Departed I absolutely love, and maybe it isn't as enjoyable as that film, but America is the more well-crafted and executed of the two. The two rape scenes? Well one of them isn't really technically a "rape" scene since the woman is actually asking Robert De Niro to rape him, it's more rough sex than anything else. The other rape scene is incredibly important to the film, it finally nails the nail in the coffin to us that Noodles (De Niro) can't be saved or salvaged and that he'll always be the violent street thug he grew up as. That was the one thing remaining from his earlier life to connect him to innocence and love and he destroyed it in a disgusting act. Incredibly important scene to the film.

Is it overlong? Perhaps. So is Casino, Goodfellas, The Godather, and just about every other epic gangster film ever made. I was never bored once during the near 4 hour long original cut of the film.

No, I don't think it's the greatest gangster film ever made. It might have more scope than The Godfather, but that doesn't make it better.

It's a far better film than The Godfather. In The Godfather we have your basic coming-of-age/passing-the-torch story with a mafia twist, but the film doesn't delve into the emotions of it's characters with even half of the skill that Leone does in America. Every character in the film has incredible depth and the film truly covers not only the business of the mafia like The Godfather did, but it also covers the motivations and emotions behind that business and the people who were/are involved in it.

I stand by my statement that Once Upon a Time in America is the greatest "gangster film" ever made. Probably not the most enjoyable, but the best of the lot no doubt.

 

[Y 2 Jake]

Being iconic is overrated. Citizen Kane is iconic, but it sure as fuck isn't the greatest film ever made.

Being iconic in a great film isn't.

Only because not as many people have seen it. If Once Upon a Time in America had been as popular as Goodfellas was I'm sure people would be quoting James Woods and Robert De Niro in this film.

And maybe if Choke was as good as FGight Club more people would quote from it.

Nonsense, Mean Streets may have a better selection of rock and doo wop songs from the 60s but Ennio Morricone supplied most of the score for America and he's far and away the greatest film composer to ever live.

Yeah, loved his Jaws theme.

I consider that a good thing since Carlito's Way is vastly overrated.

Nobody rates it highly enough for it to be overrated.

Huh? Have you seen Once Upon a Time in America Jake?

Not since 1998, admittedly.

It's probably one of the most violent mainstream gangster films ever made, much moreso than Casino or any other of the Scorsese gangster films, or the Godfather trilogy. Sergio Leone was known for being bloodthirsty and America was no different, the violence in the film is gritty and realistic and downright disturbing at times. There are multiple stabbings and shootings in the film among other violent acts. Really a brutal film.

None of the vilonence will catch on like the violence in Casino. Heads in vices has been cool for almost 15 years now, and not even The Warriors made baseball bats cool.

Well one of them isn't really technically a "rape" scene since the woman is actually asking Robert De Niro to rape him, it's more rough sex than anything else.

Like Straw Dogs.

''Get off me''

''You know you like it rough''

''When have I ever given you that impression before''

Is it overlong? Perhaps. So is Casino, Goodfellas, The Godather, and just about every other epic gangster film ever made. I was never bored once during the near 4 hour long original cut of the film.

To be fair, you smoke a lot of weed. A drug that makes you enjoy the boredom.

I stand by my statement that Once Upon a Time in America is the greatest "gangster film" ever made. Probably not the most enjoyable,

Not the most enjoyable, indeed. Well crafted, fo shizzle, but entertaining, not really.

but the best of the lot no doubt.

I ask you this, if it's so good then how come all the rappers don't love it so?

 

[Cena's Little Helper]

Ooooh!!!! A bunch of gangster films listed in Jake's post...let me go over them.

No characters as iconic as Don Corleone,

I can't deny this one...Once Upon a Time in America does have the actor who played Don Corleone in The Godfather II, though.

not as quotable as Goodfellas,

When did Goodfellas become quotable? Do you mean Scarface? I can't remember a single line from Goodfellas that I didn't hear in any of The Godfather films or Scarface.

a soundtrack that doesn't match Mean Streets,

Mean Street's soundtrack may have had good artists, but it only had one good song (Be My Baby by The Ronettes).

no brilliant overracting like Carlito's Way,

Carlito's Way is one of the worst crime dramas ever made. De Palma should have just been content with the luck he had with Scarface.

no violence as memorable as in Casino,

One of the most overrated crime dramas ever made, although somewhat violent...wouldn't it have been better to just put The Sopranos here? Granted, it's a television series, but it's just as good as anything Scorsese has ever made.

no Christopher Walken,

Walken's a good actor, but he's made more shit films than good ones.

not as enjoyable as The Departed,

The Departed is THE most overrated crime drama ever made. In fact, I'd go as far to say that the only great modern crime drama Scorsese had ever made was Goodfellas (Mean Streets was good, The Departed and Casino were mediocre at best).

two nasty rape scenes and and overlong.

The only valid criticism that can be made about Sergio Leone is that his films were too long. But, I think his epic ambitions (which you mention in the following part of your post with "scope") more than justify Once Upon a Time in America's length.

No, I don't think it's the greatest gangster film ever made. It might have more scope than The Godfather, but that doesn't make it better.

Just as none of the things that you mentioned make a film better.

This being said, however, I'd go with Thief as the greatest crime drama ever. Why? Because I like my crime dramas to delve into the psychology of their protagonists and try to come up with explanations for why these criminals behave the way they do.

 

[X]

Mean Street's soundtrack may have had good artists, but it only had one good song (Be My Baby by The Ronettes).

Totally disagree with you there. There's not a bad song on that soundtrack. From Be My Baby to The Rolling Stones' "Tell Me" (one of their most underrated songs ever) to The Marvellettes "Please Mr. Postman" to even the classic Chips "Rubber Biscuit", that soundtrack is gold from start to finish man. Then again I'm guessing you probably aren't a big fan of doo-wop and girl groups. Come on, one of the best scenes in the movie is because of the song Rubber Biscuit!


The use of Snorricam (really ahead-of-his-time stuff there from Scorsese) and Rubber Biscuit just sums up that state of wild intoxication like few other scenes I've ever seen in a film. But, yeah, anyways this thread isn't about the Mean Streets soundtrack so I'll go on.

This being said, however, I'd go with Thief as the greatest crime drama ever. Why? Because I like my crime dramas to delve into the psychology of their protagonists and try to come up with explanations for why these criminals behave the way they do.

Well two things here, one I'm not sure if I'd consider Thief a "gangster" film like Once Upon a Time in America. Yes it's a crime drama, but the characters don't really fit under the typical "gangster film" cliches. Great film though.

But second, if you like your crime dramas to delve into the psychology of their protagonists and try to explain their behaviors, then you should absolutely love Once Upon a Time in America. Have you seen it? Because one of the main reasons I've come to consider it the greatest "gangster film" ever made is in fact because of the themes of the film dealing with thet backgrounds and motivations behind these criminals actions. Shit half of the movie is spent in a childhood flashback to help explain their motivations.

Anyways, I'm really digging this thread. Now if Negative Nancy Jake would only find something good in life.

 

[Cena's Little Helper]

Totally disagree with you there. There's not a bad song on that soundtrack. From Be My Baby to The Rolling Stones' "Tell Me" (one of their most underrated songs ever) to The Marvellettes "Please Mr. Postman" to even the classic Chips "Rubber Biscuit", that soundtrack is gold from start to finish man. Then again I'm guessing you probably aren't a big fan of doo-wop and girl groups. Come on, one of the best scenes in the movie is because of the song Rubber Biscuit!


The use of Snorricam (really ahead-of-his-time stuff there from Scorsese) and Rubber Biscuit just sums up that state of wild intoxication like few other scenes I've ever seen in a film. But, yeah, anyways this thread isn't about the Mean Streets soundtrack so I'll go on.

Hasn't Please Mr. Postman been used in a bunch of other films? I'll concede this point.

Well two things here, one I'm not sure if I'd consider Thief a "gangster" film like Once Upon a Time in America. Yes it's a crime drama, but the characters don't really fit under the typical "gangster film" cliches. Great film though.

Hmm...James Caan plays a thief who is asked by Robert Prosky, the leader of a large fence syndicate, to work for him personally. How is this not a gangster film? Granted, the syndicate's membership isn't limited to people of a certain ethnicity, but it's a criminal organization nonetheless.

But second, if you like your crime dramas to delve into the psychology of their protagonists and try to explain their behaviors, then you should absolutely love Once Upon a Time in America. Have you seen it? Because one of the main reasons I've come to consider it the greatest "gangster film" ever made is in fact because of the themes of the film dealing with thet backgrounds and motivations behind these criminals actions. Shit half of the movie is spent in a childhood flashback to help explain their motivations.

Anyways, I'm really digging this thread. Now if Negative Nancy Jake would only find something good in life.

Yes, I've seen Once Upon a Time in America, and I think it's a great film. But, its characters are no different than the ones that you find in any of Scorsese's or Coppola's films. This film gives you the same old narrative: poor kids living in the city rising through the ranks of organized crime to give themselves the kind of lives they always wanted. While this type of story makes for good watching, it nevertheless gives the criminal life an air of romanticism that can get sickeningly cliche after a while (it's because of films like these ones that we now have abominations like Empire, the 2002 film with John Leguizamo).

For lack of better words, I find Michael Mann's crime dramas to be better than any made before because they usually start in media res. His protagonists are convicted felons that are still in the (pseudo-)profession that got them locked up in the first place. Why is it that they continue to do what they do? Furthermore, they have the same aspirations as most of us, but they choose to go about fulfilling them in a wholly different manner; why is this so? Does it have something to do with the hard time society gives convicted felons (Mann hints that this may be the case in some instances with Dennis Haysbert's character in Heat), or is it because they have some unquenchable thirst for the perilous lifestyle?

 

[King Douche]

Hasn't Please Mr. Postman been used in a bunch of other films? I'll concede this point.




Hmm...James Caan plays a thief who is asked by Robert Prosky, the leader of a large fence syndicate, to work for him personally. How is this not a gangster film? Granted, the syndicate's membership isn't limited to people of a certain ethnicity, but it's a criminal organization nonetheless.



Yes, I've seen Once Upon a Time in America, and I think it's a great film. But, its characters are no different than the ones that you find in any of Scorsese's or Coppola's films. This film gives you the same old narrative: poor kids living in the city rising through the ranks of organized crime to give themselves the kind of lives they always wanted. While this type of story makes for good watching, it nevertheless gives the criminal life an air of romanticism that can get sickeningly cliche after a while (it's because of films like these ones that we now have abominations like Empire, the 2002 film with John Leguizamo).

For lack of better words, I find Michael Mann's crime dramas to be better than any made before because they usually start in media res. His protagonists are convicted felons that are still in the (pseudo-)profession that got them locked up in the first place. Why is it that they continue to do what they do? Furthermore, they have the same aspirations as most of us, but they choose to go about fulfilling them in a wholly different manner; why is this so? Does it have something to do with the hard time society gives convicted felons (Mann hints that this may be the case in some instances with Dennis Haysbert's character in Heat), or is it because they have some unquenchable thirst for the perilous lifestyle?

I thought this movie was good but not the best gangster movie in the franchise of gangster movies. Anyways by the way I love Micheal Mann and think his crime dramas are great. Wish he make even more.

 

[Cena's Little Helper]

I thought this movie was good but not the best gangster movie in the franchise of gangster movies.

What gangster film do you consider the greatest? Also, what do gangster films that you consider better have that Thief lacks?

Anyways by the way I love Micheal Mann and think his crime dramas are great. Wish he make even more.

I wish this were the case as well; I can't think of many other people that match this man in terms of detail and realism. Of course, Mann's meticulousness is probably the reason why he's not as prolific as, for example, Steven Spielberg or Clint Eastwood. The only other person that I've been just as impressed with when it comes to the gangster/crime genre is David Simon, the creator of The Wire.

 

[Y 2 Jake]

When did Goodfellas become quotable?

About 1990 when the film came out. Me and my mafioso friends quote the shit out of it. Now go and get your fuckin' shine box.

Mean Street's soundtrack may have had good artists, but it only had one good song (Be My Baby by The Ronettes).

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0070379/soundtrack

That's a great soundtrack, based on the very low hit rate for most sountracks. Hit as in good, not hit as in success.

Carlito's Way is one of the worst crime dramas ever made. De Palma should have just been content with the luck he had with Scarface.

Worst, no way, you must've missed all the post Lock, Stock British crime films that came out. It's overrated, but still infinitely better than Scarface.

One of the most overrated crime dramas ever made, although somewhat violent

Kinda my point, baseball bats to the head then being buried alive and heads in vices alone make it more of a standout film that One Upon A Time In America. Not as good, maybe, but has more stand out scenes.

Walken's a good actor, but he's made more shit films than good ones.

Joe Dirt > Deer Hunter.

The Departed is THE most overrated crime drama ever made.

Surprising, coming from an American.

Just as none of the things that you mentioned make a film better.

But they're each things from different films that are individually better than what's in One Upon A Time In America. All those things as a whole wouldn't work, but they're each reasosns why other people would pick those films over this one.

This being said, however, I'd go with Thief as the greatest crime drama ever. Why? Because I like my crime dramas to delve into the psychology of their protagonists and try to come up with explanations for why these criminals behave the way they do.

So not One Upon A Time In America then!

 

[Davi323]

I am trying to figure out how Ennio Morricone is the greatest film composer to have ever lived? Don't get me wrong, he has written some beautiful music...but, lets not get carried away. Not when you compare Morricone to John Williams, who has composed the most recognizable music ever heard in a film. Not when you consider Williams 20 Grammy awards (nominated for 59), 7 BAFTAs, 5 Oscars (nominated for 45), 4 Golden Globes (nominated for 21), and 3 Emmys. Oh, lets not forget the 4 Olympics he has composed the music to as well. He also has 3 tracks in the American Film Institutes greatest scores of all time, with ET at 14, Jaws at 6, and of course, the main theme to Star Wars at #1.

I get that you love Morricone, but, realistically, for as good a career as he has had composing music, John Williams has had a better one.

 

[X]

I am trying to figure out how Ennio Morricone is the greatest film composer to have ever lived? Don't get me wrong, he has written some beautiful music...but, lets not get carried away. Not when you compare Morricone to John Williams, who has composed the most recognizable music ever heard in a film. Not when you consider Williams 20 Grammy awards (nominated for 59), 7 BAFTAs, 5 Oscars (nominated for 45), 4 Golden Globes (nominated for 21), and 3 Emmys. Oh, lets not forget the 4 Olympics he has composed the music to as well. He also has 3 tracks in the American Film Institutes greatest scores of all time, with ET at 14, Jaws at 6, and of course, the main theme to Star Wars at #1.

I get that you love Morricone, but, realistically, for as good a career as he has had composing music, John Williams has had a better one.

That's all a matter of opinion really. Maybe I was a bit hyperbolic in my love for Morricone, but I find a large portion of Williams work to be overrated. I couldn't remember the ET theme for the life of me, because it did nothing for me. Just different tastes really, I think Danny Elfman is a bit of a hack as well. Grammys mean nothing to me.

Besides I wasn't arguing he had the greatest career. I argued that he's the greatest composer in my view. I think his body of work is superior to just about any others. Williams included.

 

[Shadowmancer]

Im going to chuck out a couple of film names that I would put right up there for Gangster Films. The Public Enemy and White Heat. Both with James Cagney, both utterly brilliant in delivery and just great fun to watch, I mean the grapefruit scene in The Public Enemy alone is memorable.

 

[INDYjon22]

JESUS FUCKING CHRIST! Why did it take me so long to see this film? It was incredible in just about every way. Now I don't if I would personally go as far as to say it is the greatest gangster film ever, but it is really fucking high on my list. I am personally partial to The Godfather Part 2, but this was a very very good movie.

Robert Deniro was superb in this role. His character was very interesting. At times he was a monster like when he raped Deborah. But other times he seemed like a very genuine and nice guy. He really had the whole Jekyll and Hyde thing going on.

James Woods was also very very good in his role. He just seemed to live his role and you could see how he was losing touch with everything as the movie progressed. This was my favorite James Woods performance ever.

Overall a fantastic film and even though the ending seemed a little strange it really did not hurt the movie as a whole in my eyes. I would like to thank X for bringing this movie up and Showtime for actually playing it.

 

[Papa Shango]

First off, Kudos to tdigs for whippin out Thief. Fantastic movie. Wouldn't say the greatest gangster movie, or even Michael Mann's best movie (That would be Heat, thank you). But a great film nonetheless, probably my favorite James Caan movie.

Now onto Once Upon a Time in America... anyone who's only ever seen the theatrical, 2 hour cut, need not be part of this discussion, because you have not seen the real Once Upon a Time in America. The REAL Once Upon a Time in America is a sweeping epic, that takes it's time and tells the story in a way that it needed to be told.

Very rarely do we see a gritty crime drama as deep as this one. Even The Godfather doesn't dig this deep into its main characters like this. The Godfather required two more parts to fully flesh out the Corleone family.

I hesitate to rank different movies ahead of each other. I much rather prefer having discussions about multiple films at once, and compare and contrast their strengths and weaknesses. But I have to say, if I'm going to put gangster films in rank and file order, then Once Upon a Time in America easily ranks in the top 5, right alongside the first two godfathers, The Public Enemy, and the original 1932 Scarface.

It easily Sergio Leone's masterpiece, everything so meticulously shot and edited and pieced together into one epic tragedy.

Anyone who is going to have an intelligent conversation about the genre, HAS to bring up this film. And then mock Carlito's Way.

 

[The Roid Rage]

I am absolutely shocked that as you have all talked about these great gangster flicks not one of you has mentioned The Untouchables. How could you overlook that one?

I have to say Mr. Ecko and some of you others, I am impressed. I didn't know anyone else on the planet had ever seen Once Upon A Time In America. Not just that, but that anyone besides me would like that kind of a movie with that kind of length too. No one else I know has seen it, and I have never heard anyone else mention it on a forum or otherwise. I too thought after watching the 4 hour version it was easily ONE of the best gangster movies ever. I like pretty much all of them, they are all great to me. I couldn't necessarily say it is THE best, but a very strong argument can be and has been made for it.

 

[X]

Well you see guys the reason I like to think of it as the greatest "gangster" film ever made, is because of something that Papa Shango specifically mentioned, and that's how deeply Sergio Leono delves into the psyches of the two main characters of the film, DeNiro and Woods. Never before have I seen a crime/gangster film that so meticulously delved into the roots of what made these boys turn into men and to a life of crime, what their actual motivations are for what they do and what turned them into the men they are. No other crime film has ever properly shown the roots of what led the main characters to a life of crime quite like Once Upon a Time in America in my opinion.

That, and I absolutely love open-for-interpretation endings. The closing shot of Noodles' smiling opium-induced face is one of my very favorites. Glad to see so many other people have seen this film.

 

[jmt225]

Finally got around to watching this today.

There is a period in this film, from when Noodles and Max are kids all the way up to right before Noodles date with Deborah, where the movie is absolutely brilliant. That hour and a half or so is just incredible, and I loved every single second of it.

The rest of the movie, however, I did not like at all, I hate to admit.

The beginning had some cool, brutal shit, but nobody has any idea what the fuck is going on. Of course we understand later, but for that first 30 minutes or so you're sitting there confused and at some points down right bored since nothing's happening other than people walking around. When the movie FINALLY gets to De Niro's childhood, it then really picks up.

However, all that steam gets lost once Noodles goes on a date with Deborah. That date was just way too long, and while I understood the rape scene, meh... I don't know, that entire sequence just didn't sit well with me. First of all, the actress who was playing Deborah was just terrible. Jennifer Connelly as the child version was MUCH better than her, which is a shame. Secondly, it just dragged on far too long, and other than the little sequence on the boat, nothing was said of any meaning.

Now, past that, we get one more incredible scene when Noodles arrives back to Max's establishment. Great, hilarious part where Max kicks out his girlfriend to prove a point. I loved it, but after that... the movie goes right back downhill.

All of the sudden, for no reason, Max is "crazy" and he will explode on you if you call him crazy. WTF? I guess you could argue that was just a part of him setting up Noodles, to make sure he phones in the police, but still... that was fucking stupid and came out of nowhere. Plus, since Max is crazy at the end of the movie, that hurts the argument as well.

Then, the whole final act was just atrocious. First of all, like I mentioned, the Deborah character was completely a miscast. How could anyone ever suspend disbelief with that actress playing her is supposed to be over 60-years-old? She has chubby baby cheeks for fucks sake. So, I had trouble getting over that. And to make matter worse, the scene with her and Noodles in her dressing room was over long and nothing of any meaning was said.

And the whole Max is still alive and it was all a set up, "Kill me" crap... that was just stupid to me. And while Max jumping into the garbage truck was kind of a cool way for him to commit suicide, it still made hardly any sense and was completely unnecessary.

X, you say in your last post that:

Never before have I seen a crime/gangster film that so meticulously delved into the roots of what made these boys turn into men and to a life of crime, what their actual motivations are for what they do and what turned them into the men they are. No other crime film has ever properly shown the roots of what led the main characters to a life of crime quite like Once Upon a Time in America in my opinion.

I didn't see that at all, man. We didn't get into these characters heads, and we don't even know why they turned out the way they did. At no point is it addressed Things just go with the flow, which I don't mind sometimes, but I have to disagree man that we ever get a true feel of what's going on in these characters heads and what their motivations are.

Also, X... you like the last scene of De Niro smiling as he gets high, because that means the whole sequence when he was older could have been a dream of his. Well, I would have liked it more if Noodles could have come up with a better dream, because all that shit sucked, man.

All in all, for the flashes of brilliance in this movie, it gets a solid 7/10 from me. Like I said, I LOVED a good half of it, but unfortunately... I just wasn't feeling the rest. In my opinion, this movie is nothing compared to The Godfather Part II (in my opinion, this is the greatest gangster movie ever made), Goodfellas, Casino, The Departed, and even the first Godfather (which I feel is sort of overrated, but it's still a great movie regardless).

 

[X]

The beginning had some cool, brutal shit, but nobody has any idea what the fuck is going on. Of course we understand later, but for that first 30 minutes or so you're sitting there confused and at some points down right bored since nothing's happening other than people walking around. When the movie FINALLY gets to De Niro's childhood, it then really picks up.

However, all that steam gets lost once Noodles goes on a date with Deborah. That date was just way too long, and while I understood the rape scene, meh... I don't know, that entire sequence just didn't sit well with me. First of all, the actress who was playing Deborah was just terrible. Jennifer Connelly as the child version was MUCH better than her, which is a shame. Secondly, it just dragged on far too long, and other than the little sequence on the boat, nothing was said of any meaning.

That rape scnee is the most important scene in the entire film though JMT, because that's the point where you as the viewer realize that Robert De Niro's character is in fact not a "good guy" or even the lovable anti-hero like Pacino or Ray Liotta played in Godfather and Goodfellas, those characters, while showing you the brutal side of the mafia, were ALWAYS still seen as sympathetic characters for the viewer to connect with and root for. The rape scene takes all of that away in one quick swift motion and shows us for what De Niro's character really is---which is an ignorant, brutal thug. And THAT is what I love about this film JMT---it doesn't give us this sentimental bullshit that the Scorsese mob films do trying to make you root for these men while they commit horrible crimes like murder/robbery/extortion etc, no, Sergio Leone shows us that you have to be tough and brutal to survive in that world on the streets during that time, and that these men are not good people or even likable people. They're thugs That's the POINT. That scene is just brilliant because of how Leone manipulates the viewer. She is the one thing that is connecting Robert De Niro to his nostalgic whimsical childhood that the viewer has just witnessed (and enjoyed) and to living a "normal" life, and when she refuses his advances he does the only thing that he knows how to do---he takes her by force. That's his own twisted idea of love, like she owes him something. In that scene we see Robert De Niro's character for who he truly is, and we see EXACTLY why his life has turned out how it has JMT. That's what I mean when I say that like no other film this show us the true motivations of these criminals/gangsters. These aren't good men, these aren't respectable men, they're criminals, liars, thiefs, and murderers and Leone doesn't glamorize that for a second like Copolla and Scorsese do in their mob films.

All of the sudden, for no reason, Max is "crazy" and he will explode on you if you call him crazy. WTF? I guess you could argue that was just a part of him setting up Noodles, to make sure he phones in the police, but still... that was fucking stupid and came out of nowhere. Plus, since Max is crazy at the end of the movie, that hurts the argument as well.

Not sure what you're saying here. Max is suspicious and paranoid of those around him, and rightfully so. He's not "crazy" JMT, neither is Noodles. That's the point here, they aren't "crazy", they're emotionally stunted children. They're both still the scared little street kids that they start off the film as and this in itself helps explain why these men are led to lives of organized crime---because they know nothing else.

Then, the whole final act was just atrocious. First of all, like I mentioned, the Deborah character was completely a miscast. How could anyone ever suspend disbelief with that actress playing her is supposed to be over 60-years-old? She has chubby baby cheeks for fucks sake. So, I had trouble getting over that. And to make matter worse, the scene with her and Noodles in her dressing room was over long and nothing of any meaning was said.

I agree a few scenes in the film run overrlong, no doubt about that, Leone wasn't exactly prone to making short and succinct films. I enjoyed these scenes though because we got to see Noodles begin to understand the life he could have had with Deborah but that he ruined with his own ignorant brutality. We finally see Noodle starting to reflect on himself, something he's never done before.

And the whole Max is still alive and it was all a set up, "Kill me" crap... that was just stupid to me. And while Max jumping into the garbage truck was kind of a cool way for him to commit suicide, it still made hardly any sense and was completely unnecessary.

That's if you believe that's what happened there JMT. The ending is REALLY wide open to interpretation, I'd advise going over to IMDB and checking out some of the threads on the the peoples thoughts and views on the ending.

X, you say in your last post that:



I didn't see that at all, man. We didn't get into these characters heads, and we don't even know why they turned out the way they did. At no point is it addressed Things just go with the flow, which I don't mind sometimes, but I have to disagree man that we ever get a true feel of what's going on in these characters heads and what their motivations are.

I absolutely disagree for reasons I explained in the first part of my post here. That rape scene in particular is the biggest example of the introspection we see of these characters and their motivations. Don't you see what I mean JMT? That rape scene pretty much contains the entire message and theme of the film---that these men are not to be glamorized and looked upon almost like heroes and idols like all other mafia films to with their protagonists, this is the only REAL AUTHENTIC film I've seen to date that featured real fleshed out human characters and not caricatures from a book like you get with Goodfellas and all of it's zany and one-dimensional characters. Casino did a better job in that department when to Scorsese's work, specficially Joe Pesci's character. But the Godfather films and many of the Scorsese mafia films are just too prone to sensationalism and glamourizing these men and their crimes, when that should not be the case. The mafia is not a happy, fun, or "cool" organization, it's brutal and merciless and cutthroat, and Leone shows us that.

That's why I love the film so much. It's real, it's authentic, the characters are human and have flaws and are multi-layered. Sorry you didn't enjoy it like I did man, oh well, to each his own brother. Always fun to discuss film with you though, always.

 

[lostsoulforever]

I found it dull to be honest, far too long.

Miller's Crossing is my favourite gangster movie, that's a masterpiece. I'm not a great fan of the genre, I like Goodfellas, don't love it. The first two Godfather movies are very good, but I never really get the urge to re-watch them.

 

[jmt225]

That rape scnee is the most important scene in the entire film though JMT, because that's the point where you as the viewer realize that Robert De Niro's character is in fact not a "good guy" or even the lovable anti-hero like Pacino or Ray Liotta played in Godfather and Goodfellas, those characters, while showing you the brutal side of the mafia, were ALWAYS still seen as sympathetic characters for the viewer to connect with and root for. The rape scene takes all of that away in one quick swift motion and shows us for what De Niro's character really is---which is an ignorant, brutal thug. And THAT is what I love about this film JMT---it doesn't give us this sentimental bullshit that the Scorsese mob films do trying to make you root for these men while they commit horrible crimes like murder/robbery/extortion etc, no, Sergio Leone shows us that you have to be tough and brutal to survive in that world on the streets during that time, and that these men are not good people or even likable people. They're thugs That's the POINT. That scene is just brilliant because of how Leone manipulates the viewer. She is the one thing that is connecting Robert De Niro to his nostalgic whimsical childhood that the viewer has just witnessed (and enjoyed) and to living a "normal" life, and when she refuses his advances he does the only thing that he knows how to do---he takes her by force. That's his own twisted idea of love, like she owes him something. In that scene we see Robert De Niro's character for who he truly is, and we see EXACTLY why his life has turned out how it has JMT. That's what I mean when I say that like no other film this show us the true motivations of these criminals/gangsters.

I understand your logic here, X. I really do. I just thought that "date" went on far too long and ruined the pace of he movie, which was going tremendously to that point (even after the painfully slow start). And the actress playing Deborah was atrocious, like I mentioned; I could not get over at how bad she was. But, you have explained the point very well and I do understand it. However, I disagree big time with the following:

These aren't good men, these aren't respectable men, they're criminals, liars, thiefs, and murderers and Leone doesn't glamorize that for a second like Copolla and Scorsese do in their mob films.

I absolutely do not think they glamorize the genre, X. With The Godfather, they showed how mob families can be so close nit, while still doing what they do. In the Godfather 2, Michael absolutely came off as a heartless scumbag. Absolutely. They did not try to justify his actions, especially the killing of his brother, which haunted Michael the rest of his life, as shown in The Godfather Part 3.

As far as Scorsese's stuff... look man, it's not glamorizes as much as it is portraying the fact that evil men can still be extremely charismatic (a good majority of high class criminals are like that), which is why a lot of them go so long with getting away with so many things. And the fact is, charismatic people are likable. That's just how it is.

Not sure what you're saying here. Max is suspicious and paranoid of those around him, and rightfully so. He's not "crazy" JMT, neither is Noodles. That's the point here, they aren't "crazy", they're emotionally stunted children. They're both still the scared little street kids that they start off the film as and this in itself helps explain why these men are led to lives of organized crime---because they know nothing else.

Well, obviously that's what they were trying to tell us. Noodles thought Max was crazy, and so did Max's girlfriend. And he did act nutty a few times in the movie, man. I mean, really... throwing himself into a garbage truck? That's not crazy to you, X?

That's if you believe that's what happened there JMT. The ending is REALLY wide open to interpretation, I'd advise going over to IMDB and checking out some of the threads on the the peoples thoughts and views on the ending.

Will do.

I absolutely disagree for reasons I explained in the first part of my post here. That rape scene in particular is the biggest example of the introspection we see of these characters and their motivations. Don't you see what I mean JMT? That rape scene pretty much contains the entire message and theme of the film---that these men are not to be glamorized and looked upon almost like heroes and idols like all other mafia films to with their protagonists, this is the only REAL AUTHENTIC film I've seen to date that featured real fleshed out human characters and not caricatures from a book like you get with Goodfellas and all of it's zany and one-dimensional characters. Casino did a better job in that department when to Scorsese's work, specficially Joe Pesci's character. But the Godfather films and many of the Scorsese mafia films are just too prone to sensationalism and glamourizing these men and their crimes, when that should not be the case. The mafia is not a happy, fun, or "cool" organization, it's brutal and merciless and cutthroat, and Leone shows us that.

I understand what you're saying X, and it's a very good reason to admire the film. But for me personally, while there were some parts I loved as I mentioned in my last post, I thought the rest of the movie did not live up to the parts I loved, and ended up being very disappointed with it as a whole.

That's why I love the film so much. It's real, it's authentic, the characters are human and have flaws and are multi-layered. Sorry you didn't enjoy it like I did man, oh well, to each his own brother. Always fun to discuss film with you though, always.

Same here man, for sure. And I have to say I'm very glad I watched it. I never would have without this thread, so thank you for that.