Old School vs New School

[burnout4200]

I was reading a thread about The Most Overrated Wrestlers of All Time and it got me thinking. Is it the old school that are over rated or the new school? Hulk Hogan and The Ultimate Warrior have a limited move set but they were potrayed as being bigger or stronger than everyone else. How many punches does it take to knock you out? How many Big Boots? Press Slams? Not many. They don't even need to knock you out, they just need a three count. Are 20 minute matches with a vast array of moves even plausible?

This is a gamble but I'm gonna take it. I'd venture to say more people believed wrestling was real back in the "old school" days than they do now. Everyone blames the internet but I'm not so sure that's the case. Did The Old School do a better job of selling the product as a whole?

If a submission was put on people cringed at the pain someone was going through. Now if one of the "best" wrestlers is put in a submission an interesting reversal is expected. There isn't any fear that they're gonna lose due to that submission. The change in generations left open a gap that UFC possibly filled. If a submission gets locked in that guy is screwed and reversals are extremely rare. Once you try to go back to wrestling and watch the "best" wrestlers I see how it could make you roll your eyes or make you spit out the dreaded "fake" word.

What are your opinions? Do limited move sets actually make more sense? Did the great wrestlers of today ruin the mystique of wrestling that supposed crappy wrestlers worked so hard to build? I just found these thoughts interesting and I'm curious what others would have to say about it.

 

[Tenta]

At first, I was puzzled by the notion of this thread. However, I've had time to read it over, and I think I get the point of your thread. It's actually a pretty novel idea.... Rep for you, sir, if I can still rep at this point.

Now then, you hold a lot of validity in your statements that wrestlers worked more rugged, physical styles back in the olden days. Guys like Andre the Giant (pardon me, I'm on an Andre swing right now.) may have had limited movesets (which that isn't particularly true, only so much as he's limited compared to the wrestlers of today), but they did make their moves look more effective. I can't say how much the death of kayfabe affected the sport as we see it. It allowed for the audience to lose the sense of Aesthetic Distance from the characters, which made more characters personable, in my opinion. But the one thing it also did was reveal that wrestling was a show. Now, people didn't see wrestling as a sport; they saw it as entertainment. They weren't just wrestlers, they were entertainers. Thus, wrestlers had to learn to vary their movesets, as the actually matches no longer mattered. Rather, what mattered was the performance wrestlers put on, and getting the crowd to pop. The story of a match, I'm sad to say, was sacrificed for pops from the crowd.

Also, one must remember the new school had the old school to work off of. They had a hindisght vision that wasn't granted to the old school. They had the gift of timing, and being able to look at what the old school did, and build off it. What was once great to see wrestlers go to the top rope got modified by the new school, as they saw it worked, and was good. Soon, Planchas were prevalent in the states, and now you have guys bouncing off ropes into the air. The new school should consider themselves lucky, for without the old school, the new school would have nothing to build off of.

Anyway, those are my thoughts. Good post

 

[It's...Baylariat!]

I'll give you the best example of why the Old School is underrated these days. I'll compare a legitimate mid-carder from the 80's to one of today.

How about... lets say... Nikita Koloff vs. Mark Henry.

I compare these two because they're what I consider mid-card in their eras. We'll start with Nikita Koloff.

Koloff was a Russian Nightmare who was very athletic and intimidating. He held the NWA's TV title, Tag titles, and United States Titles. He was even in a few matches with Flair, but was mostly mid-card. He feuded with Magnum TA, Lex Luger, and the Four Horsemen. He was a great worker who probably worked nearly a WHOLE year, every day. Back then, house shows and TV Tapings ran back to back and never stopped. Sometimes, it was twice on Sundays. So Koloff worked a full schedule, defended prestigious belts and was way over with the crowd. But never held a major title.

Mark Henry was a member of the Nation of Domination and debuted as the World's Strongest Man. He was stale personality wise, but he was a good worker, won the European title, and had some memorable moments, but mostly with Mae Young. Since then, he's become the ECW Champion, which is a mid-card belt, and feuded with Tommy Dreamer, and numerous others. He recently had a match for the United States title on Raw, but lost. He's been in the biz for nearly 10 years and has done very little in his time.

Quite simply, the mid-carders of yesteryear were so much more over than they are now. They worked harder and were better wrestlers because they got to wrestle everyday. They worked a schedule that was brutal and caused careers to be shortened. Mark Henry and the other mid-carder's schedules aren't light, but lighter than the days of yesteryear. That's my comparison with Old School vs. New School.

Think about this. Mid-carders of the old days included Tully Blanchard, Ted Dibiase, Jake 'The Snake' Roberts, Tito Santana, Arn Anderson, Magnum TA, RODDY PIPER, Greg Valentine, and Owen Hart.

Now, you have Shelton Benjamin, Morrison, the Miz, Dolph Ziggler, Carlito, Christian, Chavo Guererro, MVP, Jack Swagger, Eric Young, and Jay Lethal.

There's really no comparison. Old School is very underrated.

 

[RicSpade]

I'll tell you right now what the main problem is when it comes to the era now, and the era then and it has to do with crowd expectation now. I want you to seriously look at what wrestlers of then and now do finish wise. There was a time where DDTs, Running Shoulder Blocks, Elbow Drops, Shoulder Breakers, Hell even a neck breaker or Back Suplex was considered a Finishing move, but by today's standards if the move isn't either an incredible move that catches someone off guard or doesn't look high impact marks just don't buy it anymore.

When HBK started his singles career his finisher was the back suplex, he used the super kick too, but it was his signature move as it were, it wasn't until sometime during his IC title run that someone said damn that kick sure does look better then the suplex because a swift kick in the face looked more devestating.

Really if you think about it, it doesn't really ruin what the old school had, it is in a way telling the story of the history of the business because it evolved from two larger than life men beating the hell out of each other, to a battle of big men vs little men, to showing that anyone on any given day can beat the other man. A John Cena can beat a giant, A Yoshi Tatsu can beat a Veteran, a Kevin Federline can beat a John Cena...

The only thing that Old School has over New School is Storylines, where a couple of guys could take a year to tell a story we get a new story every 3 weeks, is it fresh? Maybe but sometimes we as fans needed more depth, we don't get that build for Wrestlemania like we did years ago like when Hogan/Warrior had their showdown as WM 6. Hell even before WM 13 Austin and the Hitman had built this feud between each other starting with Survivor Series, The Rumble, The final Four, leading to WM13 and Continuing with the Hart Foundation reuniting it still lasted a good 7-8 months.

But now a decade later the really entertaining storyline I had seen was HBK and JBL and Punk/Hardy.

So take that into consideration when you examine the move sets that wrestlers use now compared to then there was a lot more to draw out getting a Leg lock and DDTs and things of that nature cause you needed to build upon the next several months where now we build it by burning people, going through tables, jumping them and hitting high impact moves just to settle a 6 week feud. (Pop in the 4 horsemen DVD and look at The Horsemens feud with Dusty, T.A., and the Road Warriors Vs. Dx and Legacy or Legacy and Kofi right now and you will understand what I am getting at)

 

[burnout4200]

Quite simply, the mid-carders of yesteryear were so much more over than they are now.

Excellent point. The mid carders from back then are now looked at as legends you cant say anything bad about. Today they still get better pops than the current rosters main eventers. Ted Dibiase, Mr. Perfect, Jimmy Snuka, Roddy Piper among others are looked at as if they were the best of the best at that point in time. They weren't at the top of the card ... the whole damn card was just that over.

The problem is the boundaries have changed. Anyone could go after the title and they were looked upon as credible. If The Mountie suddenly attacked Hulk Hogan noone would question it. The fight was on. Why can't they do that nowadays? That ruins kayfabe as well. Why can't Carlito (my favorite) just suddenly attack John Cena and hound him until he gets a title shot? There's nothing stopping him within the rules of professional wrestling. Orton never got punished for attacking Cena, technically he's fair game to any wrestler.

For anyone that still thinks wrestling is real what would that lead them to believe? For the past 6 years noones had the balls to step up to Orton, Cena, or Triple H while they have a title except each other? No wonder why the mid card isn't anywhere near over. They don't have the balls to make a move. They just sit around fighting each other while not daring to test the water with the big boys. That's another example of selling the product. Novel idea indeed, I could branch extremely far off this subject while staying on it.

 

[InterestingDrug]

Now then, you hold a lot of validity in your statements that wrestlers worked more rugged, physical styles back in the olden days.

Olden days?? Ack! When I think of the olden days, I'm thinking of Bruno holding the title. Not Hogan. The 80s are still seem semi fresh in my brain.

Today's wrestler is the total package. Speed, smarts, physique. I'll take an example: Tommy Rich. He could work and the crowd loved him. But put him in a WWE ring today with the same look, working the same type matches, giving the same promos? He wouldnt make it. He wouldnt even get on TV.

You just cant compare a previous generations wrestlers to today's wrestlers. It's like comparing the 1972 Miami Dolphins to the 2007 New England Patriots. It cant be done.

But Overrated? That's difficut. If you're saying the wrestling matches were overrated.. then yes. There were some sloppy, slow matches back then, but that's how it was designed. They didnt expect Steamboat/Savage at every show. Hogan/Bundy was a great match for it's time. We were pumped for it. Watching it now, it's just sickening to watch.. more for the burnout on Hogan than anything. But it worked back then and the match was satisfying. We expect much much more from our wrestlers nowadays.

 

[thetruthjg305]

you cant compare old school to new school at all ....the new school sucks its all controlled with crappy catch phrases (the miz) and guys who can't wrestle(john cena) then you got guys like aj styles who can wrestle but who should never be a main eventer(my opinion) beating legends like sting come on now these guys have no real character no little kid wants to be like aj styles its sad to say but its true...Then the true real heel does not exist any more there are no more rowdy pipers or ric flair's any more except maybe orton its like one month heel one month face its not realistic...guys like shawn michaels still got it is loved and still he has not had the belt since 02 and guys like batista john cena and randy orton get it every other month...the true face does not exist anymore either aside from cena there's no more hogans warriors savage's hitman's little kids look up to no more .....it will be a sad day in wrestling when the last of the old school hbk undertaker sting angle...guys with real character and real talent leave for good then will be stuck with the mid card guys running the circus ....On the other hand i love guys like john morrison christian cage matt morgan elijah burke ron killings mvp abyss guys like that are the present and the future and dont forget old school means tag teams where's the road warriors steiners rockers hart foundation bulldogs freebirds of this time they dont exist legacy sucks beermoney will never get put over and there great the guns are great and will never get the push they deserve jericho and big show never have any real challengers dx needs to go away before they kill the legacy they created and why the hell did tna not put over a guy like booker-t its beyond me i put my money on van dam to save wrestling wwe killed that dream i loved christian in tna they killed that as well and will carlito and chavo please quite before your its to late ......and for the wrestling fan who does not like the diva knockout matches your either gay or blind....lol just my opinion

 

[CaptainZaltan]

Neither is overrated, really. As you pointed out, when the old school guys wrestled, most of the fanbase believed the show was 'real'. It's a lot easier to get over as a heel when half the audience honestly believes you are an Arab shiek who detests America; much easier than trying to do it when you're a Canadian who lives in New York. In the same vein, when people believe the show is real, all it takes to get over as a face is to win a lot and beat up the heels. Of course it's not as though the old timers didn't have some major handicaps as well, such as a tougher schedule and fewer preventative measures to ensure their safety (evidenced by the sheer number that have died prematurely and continue to do so).

As for the young guys, yes they do have the benefit of being able to look at and build upon the foundation laid down by their predecessors, as well as a much safer work environment. But they also have to work around a 'smart' audience to get over, and this includes constantly coming up with new and exciting ideas and spots to draw in fans who are increasingly more desensitized to violence and more accustomed to over-the-top action. Two muscleheads fake punching each other doesen't cut it anymore...we can see that anywhere, probably right outside our front doors. And we have the UFC for 'real' fighting anyways. Wrestlers today have to do it all, or at least excel in one area. They need to be part stuntman, part daredevil, part fighter, and part actor.

That being said, I do have something else to say about the old timers. You have to consider the nostalgia factor when considering their relative abilities compared to today's generation. We (people) often tend to look back on things from our childhood's as being better than they actually were. This isn't just an opinion, it's pretty much a tested certified fact. That being said, do you honestly, without bias, think that if we were able to transplant John Cena into the 1980's WWF, that he wouldn't be far bigger than Hulk Hogan? I'm certainly no Cena fan, but as the Hogan equivalent of today, I think he is far better on the mic and in the ring than Hulk ever was. In all fairness though, Hogan would have had no means of reaching the level of someone like Cena; he simply didn't have the foundation to build from, or the need to reach that level in the first place (generally, we are only as good as our competition, and there were no 'Cenas' around back then). These are just some of the reasons why athletes from different generations generally aren't compared in terms of 'who was better' or 'who was worse'. Generally, we say 'who was better for their time?', because it's accepted as a given that athletes get better with each generation.

 

[Hulkamaniac]

I think a big problem that hasn't been mentioned with getting the midcard guys over is the structure of the product right now. In the older days, the TV shows would feature all the talent, even the midcarders, basically squashing jobbers. Remember Brooklyn Brawler/Barry Horowitz types? This way, everyone got their finisher over, everyone got to look like a dominator. They struggled against other stars of their level, but usually they weren't facing guys like that on TV, that was saved for special shows, like the PPV's.

Now, mainly thanks to the Monday Night Wars, the TV product constantly features all the big talent against each other, so nobody squashes anyone, nobody. People want PPV quality matches on TV, or else they won't tune in. It's pretty unfortunate.

That being said, I do have something else to say about the old timers. You have to consider the nostalgia factor when considering their relative abilities compared to today's generation. We (people) often tend to look back on things from our childhood's as being better than they actually were. This isn't just an opinion, it's pretty much a tested certified fact. That being said, do you honestly, without bias, think that if we were able to transplant John Cena into the 1980's WWF, that he wouldn't be far bigger than Hulk Hogan? I'm certainly no Cena fan, but as the Hogan equivalent of today, I think he is far better on the mic and in the ring than Hulk ever was. In all fairness though, Hogan would have had no means of reaching the level of someone like Cena; he simply didn't have the foundation to build from, or the need to reach that level in the first place (generally, we are only as good as our competition, and there were no 'Cenas' around back then). These are just some of the reasons why athletes from different generations generally aren't compared in terms of 'who was better' or 'who was worse'. Generally, we say 'who was better for their time?', because it's accepted as a given that athletes get better with each generation.

Good lord, are you crazy? Cena "far bigger than Hogan"? On what planet? Cena is a good wrestler, and gets hated on far more then he should by the IWC, but he would never even get on the same planet as Hogan. Cena is charismatic, but nowhere NEAR as charismatic as Hogan was. Cena is good on the mic, but nowhere near as good as Hogan (although maybe he'd be better if he weren't forced to read a script.) Nobody held a crowd in his hand like Hogan, nobody. Cena is also shorter then Savage was. He'd be pretty popular, but more on the Savage level then the Hogan level.

 

[CaptainZaltan]

Obviously that was an unbiased view, coming from "Hulkamaniac"

No offense intended, but I have genuinely never been entertained by a Hulk Hogan match, and never heard a Hulk Hogan promo that I didn't completely hate (or could even remotely understand). As for his charisma, I just don't see it. In other words, how Hogan ever became so popular is a complete mystery to me. As I said, it might have something to do with him being the top, unbeatable face at a time when many fans thought the product was real. Then again, the 80's was a wacky time. New Kids on the Block and too-much hairspray were pretty popular too. Anyways, Cena may be hated by the cynical so-called 'smart fans', but the kids worship him in SPITE of the hordes of adults booing the crap out of him. Hogan's popularity peaked when he slammed Andre the Giant; Cena could likely have FU'd him. I just don't see how a marketing machine like Cena could have failed to get over more than Hogan in that era with the same push, given that he is more coherent, more jacked up, physically stronger, has a better phsyique and look, and is about 20 times better in the ring.

In any case, to each their own. There's really no way of knowing for sure.

 

[theviolentmessiah]

I see where the original post is coming from but I think it's maybe the other way round. Maybe the spreading in the media and wrestling coming out as being "fake" forced people to up the anti to an unrealistic high. Once the word was out the old school style was dead and I dont think that's a bad thing, I'm fairly young but I've never been able to sit through a lot of old classics like Hogan.

 

[Big Nick Dudley]

I think it is easy for fans who didn't watch during the 80's to look back and say Hogan was terrible, Warrior stunk, and so on and so forth. But besides the dozens of wrestlers that could out perform either one of those guys night in and night out, you have to remember it was a different time. Watching wrestling back then was a different experience, it was more of a "show" and less of an actual competition. Showmanship was what made wrestling a national pass time. So when you watch matches like Hogan vs. Warrior, you automatically start to compare to today,a nd think of guys like Mysterio and Evan Bourne, and it just isn't fair. The wrestling business evolved in terms of the athletes it has, but storytelling has taken a hit, and it would be pretty hard to argue against that.

 

[Big Nick Dudley]

And just to elaborate a bit on what I started to talk about, and then moved on from, guys like Rick Rude, Bret Hart, Randy Savage, the Honky Tonk Man, Ted DiBiase, Mr. Perfect; those guys could compete today and put guys to shame, so along with great storytelling, they did have guys back then who wrestle with the best of them. Don't put the story of the entire generation in line with Hulkamania.

 

[King Douche]

I personally think wrestling, mainly WWE, should go back to how things was during the 1980s. You had meangingful promos, barely any comedy skits, and if you did it was actual entertaining, but mostly you had was great wrestling. Wrestling felt real and a sport which gave even more greatness to the 1980s era of wrestling. Main event scene was awesome, so was the midcard scene aswell. Championship belts were prestiges and not just props to get guys over. You actually gave a damn for the wrestlers and the storylines they were in was amazing.

 

[ChristianRivers]

When Vince bought out the old territories he essentially killed the old school way, for the new school to come up. So now there is a developmental territory but it's nothing like it use to be. Unless you have an old school mentality and want to travel all over the world in the independents before you get the call to TNA or WWE.

 

[King Douche]

No dude I mean wrestling should be like how it was in the Rock N Wrestling Era. Not the territory era, I know thats never ever gonna come back, maybe. But yeah I think wrestling should go back to that time period of professional wrestling. But sadly we have this holylwood crap going on right now so things will likely not change anytime soon.