NJPW Wrestle Kingdom 11 Hype Thread

[Papa Pillman]

The reason I say that is because Okada is one of the 3 or 4 best performers in the entire world, and if you only watched that one match you would think Omega was head and shoulders better than him. So to totally outshine somebody of that magnitude shows that you put forth an unbelievable performance. That match is what makes wrestling so good!

Just curious for your breakdown, could you possibly elaborate on why you thought Kenny's performance was so superior to Okada's in the match?

 

[agentmichaelscarn]

Just curious for your breakdown, could you possibly elaborate on why you thought Kenny's performance was so superior to Okada's in the match?

I thought Omega was the one that controlled the entire match. Really it wasn't till the final 10 minutes where Okada took control. For the most part it was Omega doing the high spots, whether it was the moonsault from the top over the barricade, the double leg stomp on the table from the apron, the dragon suplex from the top, the drop kick to the back of the head, the insane back body drop onto the table.

Like I said Okada was unbelievable for the last 5-10 minutes of the match but I think for the rest of it Kenny was the one that really shined and for a lack of a better word carried the match.

 

[Papa Pillman]

I thought Omega was the one that controlled the entire match. Really it wasn't till the final 10 minutes where Okada took control. For the most part it was Omega doing the high spots, whether it was the moonsault from the top over the barricade, the double leg stomp on the table from the apron, the dragon suplex from the top, the drop kick to the back of the head, the insane back body drop onto the table.

Like I said Okada was unbelievable for the last 5-10 minutes of the match but I think for the rest of it Kenny was the one that really shined and for a lack of a better word carried the match.

I can see where you're coming from. And agree that Kenny landed most of the memorable offense in the first 75% of the match.

I did still feel though that Okada was the one who was leading the dance as far as dictating how the match flowed and steadying the pace. I just felt a lot like Kenny ceded to Okada's Tokyo Dome main event experience and let him decide how they would control and keep the crowd strung along throughout. Its possible I could see it differently on re-watch though.

 

[agentmichaelscarn]

I can see where you're coming from. And agree that Kenny landed most of the memorable offense in the first 75% of the match.

I did still feel though that Okada was the one who was leading the dance as far as dictating how the match flowed and steadying the pace. I just felt a lot like Kenny ceded to Okada's Tokyo Dome main event experience and let him decide how they would control and keep the crowd strung along throughout. Its possible I could see it differently on re-watch though.

Ditto, my opinion may and likely change if I re-watched it myself. On first viewing I thought that not only did Omega do the high spots but he was the one to use some psychology by isolating the lower back/core for a good portion of the middle of the match. I didn't see much offense like that from Okada.

 

[Tsunaru]

What a hell of a show to make my first trip for. Especially if Omega does in fact end up leaving the company and making the jump over to WWE (which I honestly doubt, but the possibility exists), then I'm glad the last performance of my favorite wrestler that I'll see is quite possibly the greatest match of all time, and that I got to see it in person (since unfortunately, even him in WWE won't get me to watch the product). At least until he realizes that he's better than what the company will give him to work and he makes his return to New Japan.

I had a different seating arrangement from Mr. Hugh (Floor seats to the left of the ring from the hard camera, the advantages of knowing your way through the Japanese ticket booking sites and having a good idea of when they launched were very beneficial) with mostly locals and very few foreigners around. I had almost as interesting of an experience being among them as I did watching the show itself.

Did surprisingly poorly with my predictions of the show, going only 5-6 (0.454), though if I'd known Elgin was going to be returning for the Rumble I would have probably picked him over Nakanishi. Was really hoping for a stronger Bullet Club performance, but I guess by this point they've pretty much run their course, so expecting them to be dominantly booked is probably a thing of the past now.

Glad to see I'm not the only one that had tears in their eyes in that main event though XD

 

[Bagpipes]

I can see where you're coming from. And agree that Kenny landed most of the memorable offense in the first 75% of the match.

I did still feel though that Okada was the one who was leading the dance as far as dictating how the match flowed and steadying the pace. I just felt a lot like Kenny ceded to Okada's Tokyo Dome main event experience and let him decide how they would control and keep the crowd strung along throughout. Its possible I could see it differently on re-watch though.

Those running knees that Omega was spamming in the last 10 minutes or so of the match were awesome and looked like they hurt like hell.

Okada seems to be the perfect "carrier" in these big matches, if that makes sense. When he has an opponent with a strong, fluid offensive style (Omega, Tanahashi, Naito, etc) he never seems to be out of place or to bail out of spots. I give him alot of credit for finding a way to bide his time to get his stuff in by putting the other guy over throughout the majority of the match, even if he's the one to ultimately get the win.

 

[ヒュー　G.　レックション]

Okada seems to be the perfect "carrier" in these big matches, if that makes sense. When he has an opponent with a strong, fluid offensive style (Omega, Tanahashi, Naito, etc) he never seems to be out of place or to bail out of spots. I give him alot of credit for finding a way to bide his time to get his stuff in by putting the other guy over throughout the majority of the match, even if he's the one to ultimately get the win.

Really good analysis, and really it's an ideal trait to have for Ace of the company. He elevates others along with himself!

What a hell of a show to make my first trip for. Especially if Omega does in fact end up leaving the company and making the jump over to WWE (which I honestly doubt, but the possibility exists), then I'm glad the last performance of my favorite wrestler that I'll see is quite possibly the greatest match of all time, and that I got to see it in person (since unfortunately, even him in WWE won't get me to watch the product).

You can bet your ass I'll be attending next year's! I'll be getting better seats too for sure. I kind of bought the ticket for this one on a whim quite a bit after selling had started, I had seen next to nothing of the product for some time but I was browsing one day and thought "Hey... I'm in Japan. I can actually attend this!"

But I'm back to being a full fledged fan again. So a couple of post WK things. First, New Year's Dash. Suzuki-gun! Very happy with this. Always enjoyed Suzuki and KES. But LIJ dropping the 6 man belts was tragic. Why oh why did they do this? Only logical reason I can think of is if Evil and Sanada get put into the heavyweight tag scene. That would be really good.

The second... Omega's tweet. I am pretty annoyed by this. I'm certain it's a work but I really don't want him to leave, considering how much faith New Japan put in him, and seeing all of these IWC people begging him to come to WWE irks me.

 

[Bagpipes]

But I'm back to being a full fledged fan again. So a couple of post WK things. First, New Year's Dash. Suzuki-gun! Very happy with this. Always enjoyed Suzuki and KES. But LIJ dropping the 6 man belts was tragic. Why oh why did they do this? Only logical reason I can think of is if Evil and Sanada get put into the heavyweight tag scene. That would be really good.

I kind of like switching the 6 man belts for one simple reason: progressing Tanahashi's new gimmick.

It seems to me like Tana is taking somewhat of a slight heel turn, at least in his ring work because let's face it, most Japanese fans will never turn on him regardless of what he does.

But that WK match against Naito, Tanahashi worked a heel style throughout. Grabbing holds, holding onto them for longer than necessary, kind of smirking at the crowd when they got restless with it.

Then his overreaction to winning the 6 man belts, gloating to the crowd, shaking hands and kissing fans, it was priceless.

If they continue with this type of gimmick progression, Tanahashi being the old vet who still thinks he's better, or more important to the company, than he actually is, and not being willing to give up his spot at the top, I think it'll work really well to eventually give someone another big rub like he gave Naito at WK.

Keep Tanahashi strong, have him continue to beat everyone below the top 3 or 4 guys on the roster all year long, give him a good showing in the G1, let him feud with a young guy (my guess would be SANADA), and let him put someone else over at WK next year.

 

[Jack-Hammer]

I'll probably get raked over the coals for this but I just watched Okada vs. Omega via YouTube and while it was a great match, I simply don't see it as this gamechanging match. I certainly don't see this "6 star" match that Dave Meltzer has been shooting his load about all week.

Don't get me wrong, it was an extremely good match and I'm not bashing New Japan, Omega or Okada in this, I just don't see what all the hubbub's about. Whenever I hear people gushing about some match in New Japan, especially dirt sheet writers, I always try to catch it on YouTube just as I did with this one and I keep waiting to see some something monumentally special, something that's just so over the top above everyone and everything else that it changes the game entirely and I've yet to see that. Whether it's been Okada vs. Tanahashi, Styles vs. Okada, Styles vs. Tanahashi, Nakamura vs. Tanahashi, Omega vs. Naito, etc. and I just keep hoping to see some perspective changing match like so many of these has been hyped to be and it's just not there.

Again, it was a high quality match with two very high quality guys. Commentary from Kevin Kelly & Steve Corino was quality and I thought Omega flat out carried the match with great athleticism and smoothness that was flawless. I thought Okada's biggest contribution was excellently selling Omega's offense, it may have been a bit much at times but I prefer overselling to underselling. I also really liked how they teased the use of the table at various points throughout the match before delivering a very satisfying payoff with a great spot as Omega took a long backdrop over the top through the table. The upraised platform around the ring was kinda hazardous, in my opinion, as was the steel security railing around the ring. I also thought the spot from the top with Omega hitting a full nelson suplex was really dangerous and sloppy. Okada landed right on his head and it really came off, to me, as a dangerously unnecessary spot.

For me, I thought the match was about 4.5 stars, damn near as good as it can get overall. One thing that helped it, in my view, was that the match itself went about 45 minutes and I think World Championship matches should be of an epic length every so often.

 

[Wald]

I really enjoyed the match but, given I don't watch NJPW regularly, without the storyline behind it it was just another very good match for me. I don't think it will end up as my match of the year as I'm firmly in the pro-wrestling is more about storytelling camp and without that backstory I don't think you can fully appreciate what the two guys (or girls) in the ring are trying to do.

Only criticisms I have (cause every loves to bitch) are that I thought Kelly and Corino were woeful on commentary. It was like sitting me in the booth and asking me to call to it as they clearly didn't know what either men were about, particularly in forgetting the name of Omega's finisher. The second criticism is that both finishers are rubbish. I'm sorry but they are. The Rainmaker is a poor version of Jake Roberts' set up move and its utterly stupid that Okada used a spinning tombstone as a set up for it. Omega's finisher just looks too awkward in its set up to me as well, one of those wrestling moves that take you out of the match because you realise that the only way it can happen is with the co-operation of the opponent.

Great match though overall, really enjoyed it so I don't mean the above to take anything away from it.

 

[Jack-Hammer]

The second criticism is that both finishers are rubbish. I'm sorry but they are. The Rainmaker is a poor version of Jake Roberts' set up move and its utterly stupid that Okada used a spinning tombstone as a set up for it.

Yeah, I was pretty disappointed the first time I saw Okada's finisher. The way some fans gushed on it and the way some writers praised it, I was expecting some complicated, technical move that required a lot of skill and/or athleticism, that it generated a lot of impact or was just impressive to see; however, it's nothing more than a short armed clothesline and a clothesline that doesn't even look all that impactful to be perfectly honest. I've seen Okada pull off moves, in just this match with Omega, that were visually far more impressive for a finisher. I actually laughed a little when I read that it'd won Dave Meltzer's WON award Best Wrestling Maneuver for 2012 and 2013.

 

[Papa Pillman]

Omega's finisher just looks too awkward in its set up to me as well, one of those wrestling moves that take you out of the match because you realise that the only way it can happen is with the co-operation of the opponent.

In what way is the other wrestler required to do anything more during the One Winged Angel than during any other move??

Its very simple- just a one handed electric chair driver. All he has to do is get the guy up in electric chair position(seated on his shoulders) and then reach up and grab their neck with one arm and pull them down in front of him for a seated driver? How is that complicated or in need of any unusual level of cooperation that isn't needed in any other average finishing move?

Its also Damo's finisher, so its very likely that you're going to see it as regular WWE finisher in the near future, even if Omega never jumps to Stamford land.

 

[Bagpipes]

The Rainmaker is highly dependent on who's taking it to really look like a devastating finisher. Clearly, smaller, more agile guys like Omega, Naito, etc. are able to pull off pretty devastating looking bumps off of the clothesline, whereas bigger, less mobile guys like Ishii or Makabe are pretty much forced to take as hard a flat back bump as they can to give it somewhat of a devastating effect.

I've seen Ishii make it look really good, but I've also seen him basically just fold to it. I do like the move, but it's really dependent on the ensuing bump.

 

[Tsunaru]

Its also Damo's finisher, so its very likely that you're going to see it as regular WWE finisher in the near future, even if Omega never jumps to Stamford land.

Its already made the jump to the videogame series, hasnt it? Unless they've brought the "Create-a-finisher" back, I'm pretty sure it was included in one of the DLC packs.

 

[ヒュー　G.　レックション]

Yeah, I was pretty disappointed the first time I saw Okada's finisher. The way some fans gushed on it and the way some writers praised it, I was expecting some complicated, technical move that required a lot of skill and/or athleticism, that it generated a lot of impact or was just impressive to see; however, it's nothing more than a short armed clothesline and a clothesline that doesn't even look all that impactful to be perfectly honest.

It's my favourite finisher! The beauty of it is in it's simplicity. Like the stunner, or Sweet Chin Music. He can hit it on anybody and most of the time it looks fucking awesome. To me anyway haha. I love the "ripcord" effect.

I've seen my fair share of Okada matches and I can think of only two times it didn't look great. Once against Yoshihashi (when Okada himself was a little rough around the edges and had recently debuted the rainmaker gimmick) the second being against Tenzan (that speaks for itself lol)

I actually laughed a little when I read that it'd won Dave Meltzer's WON award Best Wrestling Maneuver for 2012 and 2013.

I think it's completely deserving. The move was at that time (and still is) damn over, it always gets a massive pop, also the move was protected very well (remember Heyman on Austin's podcast talking about finishers); and again because of its simplicity, the amount of teases, variations, counters and creative stuff you can do with it is a lot. Much like the RKO I suppose. Naito even created a new finisher specifically to counter the Rainmaker (Destino) at least that's what I believe!

 

[Tsunaru]

Its definitely a polarizing finisher. The ripcord-snap before the clothesline is what sets it apart and makes it one I can dig, but a lot of my friends absolutely hate it.

You can't deny it looks a lot more effective when the ripcord is followed by the V-Trigger though. That was absolutely sick looking.

 

[ShinChan]

Okay, I watched Shibata Vs. Goto at Wrestle Kingdom 11.

What the hell was up with the constant no-selling? That was too bad according to me. Just like when Kyle O'Reilly didn't sell even a chair shot at last year's Final Battle.

As much as I hated the no-selling of various moves, I loved the ending. Shibata's physical condition was used perfectly at numerous times but also used horribly at few times.

The match could've been a lot better if not for the no-selling.

 

[ヒュー　G.　レックション]

The match could've been a lot better if not for the no-selling.

I like to think of it more as "delayed selling" haha. I think Shibata and Goto in 2013 started doing this kinda spot and usually been a staple of Shibata matches ever since. I can remember reading an excerpt from Tanahashi's book where he hated on it calling it the "McDonaldisation" of wrestling.

I don't mind when it's perceived tough guys like Shibata or Ishii but recently Hiromu and Dragon Lee did it at New Beginning and it didn't feel right to me.

 

[ShinChan]

I like to think of it more as "delayed selling" haha. I think Shibata and Goto in 2013 started doing this kinda spot and usually been a staple of Shibata matches ever since. I can remember reading an excerpt from Tanahashi's book where he hated on it calling it the "McDonaldisation" of wrestling.

I don't mind when it's perceived tough guys like Shibata or Ishii but recently Hiromu and Dragon Lee did it at New Beginning and it didn't feel right to me.

I recently rewatched this match. And I still think that if not for some ridiculous no-selling, the match would've been a good one.

Moves like German Suplex should be sold well because unlike superkicks (thanks to Young Bucks), these moves still possess significant credibility as in they can hurt enough. I can't watch so much no-selling as it makes me believe that they ain't fighting each other, rather faking a fight.