NA & AA: Necessary, Or Waste Of Time?

[NSL]

I saw this debate raging in the Bar Room, and figured it deserved a place here, as I'm sure we all have our stances on the subject.

I for one, think that they're necessary. Growing up on the same street as one in Brooklyn, I saw people from all walks of life walking in, and it always seemed that it was for the better in the long run. After weeks and months, you could notice a change, and you could see how they made it through their ordeal.

I have a good friend who just put her boyfriend in NA, and after 2 weeks, she's already raving about how much he's changed, and how much "better" he is overall. He's enjoying life again, and that's the big problem most addicts have.

I think the best thing about these places, are that they're just there to help. They can show you the book on how to help yourself, but in the end, you still have to make the choices yourself. Too many other people think it's easy to quit an addiction, and for anyone that has ever had one, or has one, you know it's not that simple. If it were easy to put it down and walk away, it wouldn't be called an addiction.

So there's my two cents...What do you think?

 

[Razor]

NA and AA serve a great purpose. They are there to give someone who feels as if they're alone in their addiction a neutral place where there are many others just like them. Everyone there is trying to make their life better, and they can all lean on one another. That much I agree with.

However, I find fault in the 12 step program. I'll take the ones used for AA, simply for sake of ease on my part.

1. We admitted we were powerless over alcohol—that our lives had become unmanageable.
   
2. Came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity.
   
3. Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him.
   
4. Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves.
   
5. Admitted to God, to ourselves, and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs.
   
6. Were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character.
   
7. Humbly asked Him to remove our shortcomings.
   
8. Made a list of all persons we had harmed, and became willing to make amends to them all.
   
9. Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others.
   
10. Continued to take personal inventory and when we were wrong promptly admitted it.
    
11. Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with God as we understood Him, praying only for knowledge of His Will for us and the power to carry that out.
    
12. Having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these steps, we tried to carry this message to alcoholics, and to practice these principles in all our affairs.

I take serious alarm to the nature of these steps. This is basically a Christian conversion masked in the shape of helping alcoholics. Humbling yourself before God? Asking Him to remove your shortcomings? Admitting that only He can cure your illness? Developing a direct path through prayer to God to make sure he keeps your healthy? Bullshit.

People in AA or NA have become completely helpless. They need to learn that they are sources of their own strength, that they can do anything they want on their own. You can lean on a friend for advice, sure. You can get help from them as well. However, the point lies in finding a balance that communicates the awesome abilities present in yourself as a individual while at the same time going for help when needed. They don't need to learn that not only are they completely helpless with their drug of choice, but that they can not overcome said addiction without the help of an omnipotent being. This completely undermines the entire purpose. It creates a shell of a human that believes they can only do things with the help of God, as opposed to being someone who lives with God but can live his own life.

 

[X]

I take serious alarm to the nature of these steps. This is basically a Christian conversion masked in the shape of helping alcoholics. Humbling yourself before God? Asking Him to remove your shortcomings? Admitting that only He can cure your illness? Developing a direct path through prayer to God to make sure he keeps your healthy? Bullshit.

Well, sorry Razor, I love ya, but it's obvious you don't know very much about either program or that you've ever attended a meeting. Because A) the word God was replaced with "higher power" years ago, and B) Higher power is explained to those interested in the program as being anything that you recognize as having more power than yourself. It could be your governor. I remember a counselor telling me it could be a light bulb above your head if you wanted it to. All it means is admitting that you do not have complete control over everything in life really.

AA started off from religious roots, so of course there's going to be underlying themes of God, but the modern program is very, very non-religious, the only religious thing about it is that it's often held in church basements.

Seems like this topic was started solely for me honestly, eh NSL? I've spent most of my life involved in, surrounded by, or attending AA and to a lesser extent, NA meetings. Both of my parents were alcoholics, so from the age of 3 or 4 I was attending meetings with my father, and later my mother. For years and years I attended these meetings, my sister and I must have been to hundreds and hundreds as kids. Later on when I struggled with drugs and alcohol myself I turned to the program, and without it I have no doubt I'd still be lost in the despair of hard drugs. I still smoke pot and drink 1-3 times a week, but without AA I really don't think I'd even be alive right now. Honestly, without that program, I'd likely have died several years ago in some dirty alleyway. I can't explain just how important of a role the program played in the life of myself, my family, and several of my closest friends. Anyone who thinks addiction isn't a disease is a fucking idiot quite frankly.

Anyone who thinks AA or NA is a waste of time, I'd LOVE to hear an explanation for that. LOVE to. Because I'd love to hear how this program that has saved thousands upon thousands of lives is a "waste of time", I'd really love to. Trust me, without programs like AA and NA, there would be atleast double the amount of alcoholics and drug addicts we have in this country right now.

I thank my higher power every single day for the existence of this program. Without it, I'd be dead, of that I am almost certain.

 

[NSL]

Seems like this topic was started solely for me honestly, eh NSL?

Not just for you. I saw there was a debate, and figured this would be the right place for it, and also for anyone who doesn't frequent the Bar to have their say. It helps that it's a pretty big topic, and would incite some solid debate.

I thank my higher power every single day for the existence of this program. Without it, I'd be dead, of that I am almost certain.

I don't think it counts as a higher power for NA meetings, if you're higher power is weed

All kidding aside, I don't personally use religion to get me through anything, but I won't stop anyone else from doing so. If thinking that a "higher power" or god can save you does the trick, then by all means, do it. I think the gist of all of it is that you still end up making the changes yourself.

 

[X]

Not just for you. I saw there was a debate, and figured this would be the right place for it, and also for anyone who doesn't frequent the Bar to have their say. It helps that it's a pretty big topic, and would incite some solid debate.

Well I'm glad you did NSL, very good topic and one that obviously hits close to home for me.

I don't think it counts as a higher power for NA meetings, if you're higher power is weed

Haha, yeah, true. I'll freely admit that I'm not a completely clean and sober person, but the issues I had with one terrible drug in specific is what I refer to. I would never have been able to kick it without AA and NA. I do still smoke weed though, everyone knows that. It's about 10,000 times better than the shit I was doing before, trust me.

All kidding aside, I don't personally use religion to get me through anything, but I won't stop anyone else from doing so. If thinking that a "higher power" or god can save you does the trick, then by all means, do it. I think the gist of all of it is that you still end up making the changes yourself.

This is a common misconception about AA/NA though NSL, it's really not a religious program. You can be an Atheist and still be in AA, there's no problem there. All that step really means is admitting that you personally do not have control over everything in life, and you can't expect yourself to or attempt to.

 

[Razor]

Well, sorry Razor, I love ya, but it's obvious you don't know very much about either program or that you've ever attended a meeting. Because A) the word God was replaced with "higher power" years ago, and B) Higher power is explained to those interested in the program as being anything that you recognize as having more power than yourself. It could be your governor. I remember a counselor telling me it could be a light bulb above your head if you wanted it to. All it means is admitting that you do not have complete control over everything in life really.

I know about AA. I was working off of the old 12 steps though, I'm not going to lie. Either way, it teaches that you don't have the power to overcome....when I argue you do. The point of AA should be that you can overcome, not that you can't without help.

AA started off from religious roots, so of course there's going to be underlying themes of God, but the modern program is very, very non-religious, the only religious thing about it is that it's often held in church basements.

Okay then. Replace my "religious conversion" argument with my entire last paragraph. You shouldn't be saying you are helpless, but rather that you can beat your addiction. Use God as a moral guide, not as a bulldozer to push yourself through.

I can't explain just how important of a role the program played in the life of myself, my family, and several of my closest friends. Anyone who thinks addiction isn't a disease is a fucking idiot quite frankly.

That's nice. If only my mom's side of the family would partake. My grandfather died of liver and lung disease when I was little. Fucker was still smoking when he was in the hospital. My uncles are all alcoholics, and my aunt was once a heavy meth/coke addict. She was doing well...I hope she didn't relapse.

I thank my higher power every single day for the existence of this program. Without it, I'd be dead, of that I am almost certain.

Which is great. I argue you don't need that higher power to overcome the problem, though.

 

[X]

I know about AA. I was working off of the old 12 steps though, I'm not going to lie. Either way, it teaches that you don't have the power to overcome....when I argue you do. The point of AA should be that you can overcome, not that you can't without help.

For an alcoholic or drug addict to overcome their issues without any help or support, well that's about one of the hardest things humanly possible. Maybe 1 in 1 million addicts is able to do that Razor.

Okay then. Replace my "religious conversion" argument with my entire last paragraph. You shouldn't be saying you are helpless, but rather that you can beat your addiction. Use God as a moral guide, not as a bulldozer to push yourself through.

But the whole reason someone goes to AA or NA is because they've realized that they are helpless in the face of their addiction. Otherwise, they wouldn't be addicted would they? That's the nature of the beast; you are completely helpless to it, it controls your life completely, and you have to admit that it controls you before you can start down the path of ridding yourself of it.

That's nice. If only my mom's side of the family would partake. My grandfather died of liver and lung disease when I was little. Fucker was still smoking when he was in the hospital. My uncles are all alcoholics, and my aunt was once a heavy meth/coke addict. She was doing well...I hope she didn't relapse.

I wish all the best for them Razor man, drugs and alcohol have taken too many lives away.

Which is great. I argue you don't need that higher power to overcome the problem, though.

Like I said, AA isn't religious, and it doesn't tell you you need to believe in a God to be able to start down the path of recovery. It's simply admitting that you do not have control over things in life, the most obvious of which is your drug use. Your addiction could be your higher power if you wanted it to.

For me, I just use the term "higher power" to describe whatever mysterious force is behind this whole crazy universe. I'm a big critic of organized religion, but I do believe that there is some reason for this universe to exist, other than "we just exist...because." That to me is the height of absurdity. But, like I said, you can believe whatever you want in AA or NA, there are no religious texts or deities you must subscribe and bow to.

 

[stingerlegends]

To assume that one's own will is able to overcome everything is absurd. You cannot stop earthquakes with your will, you cannot stop yourself from catching the flu. You cannot get someone to like you, or give you a job. How is having a disease like addiction any different? The idea of AA and NA is to show people this. Most addicts feel they have power over their addiction, when that is obviously not true. I wish I had statistics, but it was proven that submitting to a higher power of your choice significantly increased the odds of gaining control over certain aspects of your life.
If you do not wish to believe in GOD, that's your choice, but you cannot possibly believe that all the world revolves around your own mind and will. Nature can be your higher power, if you wish. Substances have a profound effect on the body and mind of all individuals, regardless of whether you want it to or not.

 

[Razor]

For an alcoholic or drug addict to overcome their issues without any help or support, well that's about one of the hardest things humanly possible. Maybe 1 in 1 million addicts is able to do that Razor.

Not completely alone. Use God as a guide, use your friends as help, use your fellow AA members to get along. However, AA should be arguing that you have the power in yourself to stand up and keep the process going.

But the whole reason someone goes to AA or NA is because they've realized that they are helpless in the face of their addiction. Otherwise, they wouldn't be addicted would they? That's the nature of the beast; you are completely helpless to it, it controls your life completely, and you have to admit that it controls you before you can start down the path of ridding yourself of it.

And to start down that path you have to admit that you have the power to overcome.

Suppose I'm walking along. I come to a hill. This hill is mighty steep. On top of the hill is the car I've always wanted. I can either sit at the bottom of the hill and say "Well. That's really steep. I don't wanna climb." Or I can say "I will make that climb, I want that fucking car."

Replace car with sobriety and hill with the sobriety process. I argue that AA or NA should teach that you can do it yourself with the help of your friends, not that you have to go to a higher power for help or you won't succeed.

I wish all the best for them Razor man, drugs and alcohol have taken too many lives away.

Thanks. They're the uneducated hicks of my family, but damn it. I'd rather they not die.

Like I said, AA isn't religious, and it doesn't tell you you need to believe in a God to be able to start down the path of recovery. It's simply admitting that you do not have control over things in life, the most obvious of which is your drug use. Your addiction could be your higher power if you wanted it to.

I believe you should be taught that you do have power over the addiction. Otherwise, you wouldn't be getting help. You're already on that road to help over your addiction, might as well continue. The fact that you continue or quit shouldn't hinge on whether you believe a higher power is helping you or not.

For me, I just use the term "higher power" to describe whatever mysterious force is behind this whole crazy universe. I'm a big critic of organized religion, but I do believe that there is some reason for this universe to exist, other than "we just exist...because." That to me is the height of absurdity. But, like I said, you can believe whatever you want in AA or NA, there are no religious texts or deities you must subscribe and bow to.

Yeah, I'm a Deist. I prickle at outright subordination to a God. Especially considering I believe God has no physical effect on our lives.

To assume that one's own will is able to overcome everything is absurd.

1) Absurd? Rather strong language, there.

2) Not everything. Just the drug addiction you're getting help for.

You cannot stop earthquakes with your will, you cannot stop yourself from catching the flu. You cannot get someone to like you, or give you a job.

Completely different. Those are factors that will occur with or without your express consent. I'm getting into First and Second Order Volitions here, of which I have no time to explain. However, let it be established that a earthquake occurring is very much different from taking another hit of smack.

How is having a disease like addiction any different?

You can actively make up your mind to get help. That's what AA and NA is. From there is where I have the problem with completely subjugating yourself to a higher power.

The idea of AA and NA is to show people this. Most addicts feel they have power over their addiction, when that is obviously not true. I wish I had statistics, but it was proven that submitting to a higher power of your choice significantly increased the odds of gaining control over certain aspects of your life.

Okay. It works. However, doesn't mean it's right. You're teaching them to be subordinate to a higher being, and that's not healthy. It teaches them that they have to turn to that being for every action.

If you do not wish to believe in GOD, that's your choice, but you cannot possibly believe that all the world revolves around your own mind and will.

I never argued that, but I argue that something that is a illness of the mind can be overcome with the mind. Not that it's easy. Just that you don't absolutely have to have an outside power to help you.

Nature can be your higher power, if you wish. Substances have a profound effect on the body and mind of all individuals, regardless of whether you want it to or not.

Right. But your will can help you make that decision to overcome and look to friends for help. You shouldn't be taught that if you make the decision to change it's nothing without the help of an omnipotent God or higher being. You should be taught that your resolve and help from others is enough, and that you will get through this. Making God or a higher being necessary is just...unnecessary.

 

[X]

Not completely alone. Use God as a guide, use your friends as help, use your fellow AA members to get along. However, AA should be arguing that you have the power in yourself to stand up and keep the process going.

That is what it argues Razor. It's about support, both inside the meetings and out. It's not even slightly religious Razor.

And to start down that path you have to admit that you have the power to overcome.

...I know, that's a part of the program Razor.

Suppose I'm walking along. I come to a hill. This hill is mighty steep. On top of the hill is the car I've always wanted. I can either sit at the bottom of the hill and say "Well. That's really steep. I don't wanna climb." Or I can say "I will make that climb, I want that fucking car."

Replace car with sobriety and hill with the sobriety process. I argue that AA or NA should teach that you can do it yourself with the help of your friends, not that you have to go to a higher power for help or you won't succeed.

Again, you keep getting stuck up on the word higher power. Science is a higher power than man, correct? There you go, that can be your higher power. It's not about praying to a higher power Razor, it's about admitting that you do not have power over everything in life. Which is true.

I believe you should be taught that you do have power over the addiction.

But you don't. That's the definition of addiction, it's something that you do not have power over. You have the power to stop using the drugs, but the addiction is still there, it's something that stays with you for your entire life. The very fact that someone has enough of a drug problem to go to AA or NA proves that they don't have power over their addiction. Otherwise, they wouldn't be addicted, would they? They would just choose not to be.

Otherwise, you wouldn't be getting help. You're already on that road to help over your addiction, might as well continue. The fact that you continue or quit shouldn't hinge on whether you believe a higher power is helping you or not.

Again, you aren't understanding the higher power concept here Razor. It's not about some omnipotent power helping you. It's about admitting that there are higher powers than yourself, which there are (nature, for example). I don't think I can explain this any other way man, I've said it like 10 times now.

 

[stingerlegends]

I disagree with the idea that submitting to GOD or a higher power is unhealthy. There is NOTHING wrong with it. Just because someone doesn't believe that He exists, doesn't make it wrong, or untrue, or unhealthy.

Have you ever been addicted to anything? FACT: there are things in nature and that are man-made that "trick" your body into thinking that it needs it to "be normal". YOUR WILL DOES NOT CHANGE THAT FACT.

You DO have, and need, strong will to NOT take these substances. I agree 100%. But the urges can be OVERWHELMING at times, and there are numerous times during the day that you are alone, with no outside help from family or friends, nor can they ALWAYS be there for you. Plus they do not have access to your thoughts, EVER. By submitting to a higher power, you can have the feeling that you are NOT alone, even when you are. You use this higher power to borrow strength from, when you are on the fence.

 

[HBK-aholic]

How anyone would argue they're a waste of time is beyond me - if they've saved just one life the argument would become void. And as we've seen from people in this thread - they have saved/changed lives. Anyone who actively seeks help by attending a meeting like this shows that they DO want to change. I can't even empathise at how hard it must be overcoming an addiction, never having been there myself, but from what I've seen, I really think these types of things are necessary to help those at their weakest points. It seems fine to think that strength comes from within, but addiction beats down at that strength to a point where people will actively argue they couldn't have beaten it on their own because they felt so weak.