Moveset = Quality

[Slyfox696]

I have never understood the rationale of people who use the number of moves in a workers moveset as their sole judge of a wrestler's quality. How does that even begin to make sense? If I go out in my backyard right now, do 10 wrestling moves, am I now a great wrestler? Honestly, it's one of the stupidest reasons I can think of to use to determine quality, second only, perhaps, to rooting for someone because they're from the same country as you. It doesn't take into account the actual important things in wrestling.

Do me a favor. Raise your hand (aka, post here) if you think that the number of moves a wrestler uses has anything to do with the quality of a wrestler. Oh yeah, and don't spam.

 

[Little Jerry Lawler]

It's not about the number of moves you have that makes you a great wrestler. It's about making others look good as well as yourself, getting a great reaction out of the crowd, and performing to your best ability is what makes you great. I used to rag on Cena for doing only five moves but he does the above explanations so well like he did for Swagger is what makes him a great wrestler. I can't name five different moves Hogan ever did but he was one of the all-time greats because he was charismatic, did great promos, and got a reaction out of the crowd.

Wrestlers like Shelton Benjamin and John Morrison may know and use a lot of moves while wrestling, but they're not great. They don't get a reaction out of the crowd and don't perform to the best of their ability. I respect the legends like Hogan and Austin and current ones like Cena because they care about the business and do everything they can to entertain the fans because at the end of the day, it's all about who and how many are out there cheering or booing.

 

[Tastycles]

It is of no coincidence that some of the most over wrestlers of all time: Hogan, Cena, Warrior, Austin, Santo, etc. had some of the most limited movesets ever. I'm not saying that's why they are over, but people like familiarity. Personally, I like to see innovation in the ring, but I'm aware that isn't what most people want to see, and that is why Cena only does 5 moves. If you think Cena can only do five moves, you are a moron, He does five because the audience want him to do five. Warrior is probably the only one of those listed that actually was technically poor, but he was so good at milking reaction for the moves he could do, he should be revered for it.

However, while a big moveset is useless in determining the popularity of a wrestler, I do think that a moveset can get a wrestler over. Look at Evan Bourne, who was probably top 5 in pops at the TV tapings this week, but has zero mic time or character building, he is over for his moves. So in answer to the question, having a lot of moves doesn't make you good, but having a repetoire of exciting moves does make you entertaining, which in my book is what pro wrestlers should do.

 

[TwistofRKO]

I agree with all the points brought up. It's about being able to draw your attention for when the moment arises you see the big move connected. The entire match is built around your top 5 moves anyways, so regardless of whether or not you have more in your repertoire the damage in the end will be sold as less because it's being used during the filler portions of the match.

However, I believe over a certain period of time you should be expaning what you perform to avoid getting a certain staleness. This varies on a case by case basis, where some can go a very long time inbetween dubbing a newly used move and others need that extra spark. That's one thing I look at the Undertaker for and nod my head in respect. He's created a deep well of respected finishing moves, but more importantly added the submission angle to his game.

Good thread.

 

[WhiteMachismo]

Do me a favor. Raise your hand (aka, post here) if you think that the number of moves a wrestler uses has anything to do with the quality of a wrestler.

*Hand Raised

Hells yes I think a moveset has to do with the quality of a wrestler. More moves = more intersting matches. People want to see something new, or something big that tthey havnt seen before. Back in the day, sure you could get over as a 5 moveset kinda guy, but nowadays when people flick on wrestling you think they want to see 5 moves? and some punches? no friggen way.

Guys like Hogan could get "pop" back in the day because they were, huge, overly massive characters that people believed to be real. 20 years ago, people still thought wrestling was real, and or not so staged. Now that Vince has annoced to everyone that its a show, and its entertainment, people dont want to see 5 moves and some fists chucked.

Back in the day, people didnt care what hogan did, as long as he came out on to. He could punch, kick, scratch his balls, it didnt matter, the crowd came to see Hogan win, and thats what happened, and it created a pop from the crowds. When people saw the legdrop, they knew Hogan had the victory, and they popped for that reason, not because it was the most simply stunning move they had ever seen before. I mean come on, a leg drop, when people had body slams, and ddts...

Would people go see "The Marine" in theatres again? Hells no! Unless they were die hard fans like us wrasslezone peeps, they wouldnt go see it, because its been seen before, and it was only "decent".

With MMA around these days, people can see real fighting, real punches, and things such as a sort, so creativity and new moves are what is keeping the business thriving.

RoH and WsX caught my attention, cuz it was innovative, and interesting. I saw moves that over my 20 some years of watching pro wrestling, i still had not seen done before. New gimmicks, new moves, new finishes.

Wrestlers like Shelton Benjamin and John Morrison may know and use a lot of moves while wrestling, but they're not great.

Ummmmm, I'd prolly say that those 2 are two of the most solid, well rounded wrestlers in the biz today. Shelton can not only make himself look good, but he can sell any move, and his mic skills are always improving. I have watched countless matches with Shelton, and every one usually has me in awe. Expecially if you include a ladder. Since day one he looked good, even in Team Angle, where Angle was the major guy, I was watching Benjamin. As for J MO, its the same story.

I don't judge a wrestler poorly if they only use 5 moves....i just wont watch their matches. We all know, in order to be a Pro Wrestler, their must be something good about them, whether mic skills, wrasslin ability, they got to where they are because of some thing *(unless they were brought in cuz they could puke on command lol).

In conclusion, if your going to have an hour long match, or main event, there should be more then 5 moves, regardless of who is fighting.

 

[TwistofRKO]

*Hand Raised

Hells yes I think a moveset has to do with the quality of a wrestler. More moves = more intersting matches. People want to see something new, or something big that tthey havnt seen before. Back in the day, sure you could get over as a 5 moveset kinda guy, but nowadays when people flick on wrestling you think they want to see 5 moves? and some punches? no friggen way.

Guys like Hogan could get "pop" back in the day because they were, huge, overly massive characters that people believed to be real. 20 years ago, people still thought wrestling was real, and or not so staged. Now that Vince has annoced to everyone that its a show, and its entertainment, people dont want to see 5 moves and some fists chucked.

Back in the day, people didnt care what hogan did, as long as he came out on to. He could punch, kick, scratch his balls, it didnt matter, the crowd came to see Hogan win, and thats what happened, and it created a pop from the crowds. When people saw the legdrop, they knew Hogan had the victory, and they popped for that reason, not because it was the most simply stunning move they had ever seen before. I mean come on, a leg drop, when people had body slams, and ddts...

Would people go see "The Marine" in theatres again? Hells no! Unless they were die hard fans like us wrasslezone peeps, they wouldnt go see it, because its been seen before, and it was only "decent".

With MMA around these days, people can see real fighting, real punches, and things such as a sort, so creativity and new moves are what is keeping the business thriving.

RoH and WsX caught my attention, cuz it was innovative, and interesting. I saw moves that over my 20 some years of watching pro wrestling, i still had not seen done before. New gimmicks, new moves, new finishes.



Ummmmm, I'd prolly say that those 2 are two of the most solid, well rounded wrestlers in the biz today. Shelton can not only make himself look good, but he can sell any move, and his mic skills are always improving. I have watched countless matches with Shelton, and every one usually has me in awe. Expecially if you include a ladder. Since day one he looked good, even in Team Angle, where Angle was the major guy, I was watching Benjamin. As for J MO, its the same story.

I don't judge a wrestler poorly if they only use 5 moves....i just wont watch their matches. We all know, in order to be a Pro Wrestler, their must be something good about them, whether mic skills, wrasslin ability, they got to where they are because of some thing *(unless they were brought in cuz they could puke on command lol).

In conclusion, if your going to have an hour long match, or main event, there should be more then 5 moves, regardless of who is fighting.

You're wrong and completely miss the point.

It doesn't matter if you have more moves it matters how you sell the moves. Technically Shelton Benjamin and John Morrison may be two of the best performers, but they aren't better employees at the moment than those with fewer moves who can gain reaction with those moves.

 

[Murfish]

Alright I've thought about this and have come up with a reason why some people find a correlation between moveset and the quality of a worker. Now Slyfox has said many times that wrestling at heart is a story of good versus evil. That is the nature of this sport and that is what draws millions of people to the product. Now we need to consider which people see a direct correlation between moveset and quality. Who are they? Well the majority of wrestling fans are drawn in by wrestlers such as John Cena, who is often criticized for his perceived 'limited' moveset. The people that we're looking for are the minority and probably part of the IWC, where they can see wikipedia articles listing movesets and many arguments for the moveset theory. I believe that most of these people tend to see wrestling in different terms than 'good versus evil'. Instead I think they see wrestlers as embodiments of what they are and what they want to be. Now this is fine in and of itself, but we also need to consider the types of people that are part of the IWC. These people tend to feel that they are 'smart' to the business, and for the most part are probably a bit 'nerdy'. Now we have a group of people that probably feel a bit smart, may be slightly nerdy, and want to identify with wrestlers, according to my assumptions of course. Are they going to be prone to identifying with John Cena, a strong, built man that isn't usually portrayed as the smartest guy out there, or are they going to identify with a an indy wrestler that knows 25 moves? The indy wrestler is the best choice for a few reasons: finding this obscure indy wrestler shows the 'intelligence' needed to seek him out, he's probably atheletic and slim(closer to what they can achieve than a Cena physique), and the fact the the can learn oodles of moves shows a degree of 'smartness' which further facilitates the identification.

I may have rambled a little bit, but that's what I though of the other day.

I might be wrong for all I know, but I may be RIIIIGHT.

 

[Y 2 Jake]

If you've got a solid wrestler more moves equals more variety. If they've got good transition then I'm more intrested in watching them than somebody with great crowd working abilities and a simpler moveset.

 

[Shadowmancer]

Its not the amount of moves that a wrestler knows it is the application of those moves to a match that flows well. What Jake said about Transitions is important, the ability to use more moves within a moveset allows for greater match flexibility and therefore more of a story to be told. The use of more moves within a match as long as they are logical within the flow of the match doesn't detract match quality. Hogan has more moves than those he performed in the US. And his US matches are loved because people believe that they are supposed to love them, but they aren't the ones that are used for video reference as much as match's like Benoit vs. Regal from the tribute show that was done for Brian Pillman, the one that is on the Chris Benoit DVD. Greater Movesets also allow for the same story to be told differently over and over again, whereas now you get Same shit different day from Main Eventers.

 

[HBK-aholic]

I think people assume that because they're watching wrestling that is the most important thing. Now personally, I do like watching wrestlers who have a good technical ability as well as other things. Hence why my favourite wretler is Shawn Michaels - I think he has a good balance of technical wrestling ability with mic skills and charisma; he knows how to get a crowd worked up.

It's not important in the overall scheme of things. I mean, Cena isn't technically amazing yet he's arguably the biggest star in the company. Shelton Benjamin is, but he isn't anywhere near Cena's level and I doubt he ever will be.

 

[Spunky]

I'd rather watch a match full of technical wrestling than A JBL, Or a Big Show match, As the match in general flow's much better, And you aren't sitting there thinking "come on nail him", But you need a balance of everything like Becca said, It's no good it you have two great wrestler's, If they can't engage the crowd, As it kills the match.

 

[Cena's Little Helper]

Hmmm...this is a good question. A wrestler with a diverse and large moveset has the opportunities to work with different types of wrestlers and to never grow stale with the audience. Futhermore, it always adds to the realism of a match when you have a wrestler who adapts his moveset to the strengths and weaknesses of his opponent and to the environment in which he works (e.g., a conventional wrestling match in a four-sided ring, a steel cage match, etc.).

Now, of course, as can be seen by my previous statement, a large moveset is only to one's advantage when one knows how to use it right. Wrestlers like Jack Evans and Teddy Hart, although impressive from a technical standpoint, are boring as shit to watch in the ring precisely because all they do is go into the ring, do their moves, and exit. They have no idea how to strategize or interact with their opponents to make their matches more enjoyable.

A sure-fire test to determine whether a wrestler is doing his job right is to ask, "Why did he just win that match?" If you can't come up with anything more than, "Because they probably decided that it would be that way before they came out to the ring," then you shouldn't consider that wrestler to be proficient at his job.

In conclusion, a large moveset is an asset to any wrestler who knows how to "tell a story," or make transitions throughout his match, as Jake and Shadowmancer already mentioned. But, it doesn't mean anything if a wrestler doesn't have the foundation that is essential to be even remotely successful.