Steamboat Ricky
WZCW's Living Legend
Read and comment and I will rep you. I really need to learn just to let these people win.
Her: From the smallest necessity to the highest religious abstraction, from the wheel to the skyscraper, everything we are and everything we have comes from one attribute of man - the function of his reasoning mind.
Me: Disagree button.
Her: I don't see how. Please refrain from using your reasoning mind to answer this, as this is what you have disagreed with....go!
Me: I will have to use reason to engage in a semi-debate. However, to say that "everything we are" is because of the reasoning mind fails to take into account experience and emotionality.
Her: Wouldn't you consider those to be part of reasoning? It varies with the individual. I reason to participate in this discussion: Why? Emotionally I was challenged. By experience I know I can debate philosophy, somewhat.
Me: No. They occur before reasoning. See what you did there? Let's look at this in order. 1. Emotionally....2. I was challenged. 1. By experience....2. I know.
Emotions and experience precede any function of the mind. Therefore, everything... that we have cannot be attributed to the reasoning mind.
Her: Ricky, I would first like to state that I am going to handle this debate as eloquently as if I did not know you, for you know I feel your logic is generally fallacious, at best, based on previous encounters. TO begin:
The definition of reaso...n is :
1. the mental powers concerned with forming conclusions, judgments, or inferences.
2. Logic . a premise of an argument.
3. the faculty or power of acquiring intellectual knowledge, either by direct understanding of first principles or by argument.
Reason is a mental faculty or ability found in humans, that is able to generate non-intuitive conclusions from assumptions or premises. It is amongst other things the means by which rational beings propose specific reasons, or explanations of cause and effect. Therefore, in contrast to reason as an abstract noun, a reason is a consideration which explains or justifies. Reason is associated with human nature, that which is unique and definitive about being human. It is contrasted with conclusions which are arrived at by habit or intuition, which is an ability humans share with other types of animal. There have been many ways of describing the essential difference between reason and intuition. Reason is generally described as more complex than habitual thinking.
Note that Ayn Rand says "his reasoning mind". This is not a generic profile of the word reason. She is saying that to the individual, they did something because they used their own reasoning. This allows variation to each individual event.
The emotional aspects, you refer to, are a truly Westernized look at logic. What you speak of is what people call rationalization. It is still part of reasoning. Philosophers such as Plato, Rousseau, Hume, Kierkegaard, and Nietzsche have combined both viewsmaking rational thinking not only a tool of desires, but also something privileged within the spectrum of desires, being itself desired, and not only because of its usefulness in satisfying other desires.
I think Rand is trying to say that all things, great and small, are done for a reason. Human reason is more than logic, requiring not just the possibility of associating perceptions of smoke, for example, with memories of fire, but also the ability to create and manipulate a system of symbols, as well as indices and icons, the symbols having only a nominal, though habitual, connection to either smoke or fire.
I hope this makes sense. I am excessively tired at the moment so if anything is unclear, feel free to ask or further explanation.
Me: I don't disagree with any bit of this last post. At the same time, and please correct me if I'm wrong, I see nothing in the post that would suggest that reasoning is nothing but a secondary function. In order for reasoning to take place, ...and other processes of the mind for that matter, some thing or some action must occur that NEEDS to be processed.
For example: I think that if a tree falls in the forest and no one is there to hear it...it still makes a sound. The sound would be the thing or action that needs to be processed, and hearing is the mind's way of processing. However, the laws of physics are not suspended simply because no one is there to witness it. I obviously have no way of proving that, because I would have to be present in some fashion to make sure that the laws of physics were still in tact at the time of the fall. So, it's mostly a matter of belief and choice...which is actually a matter of reasoning in the mind. Yet, something still precedes the reasoning as we infinitely regress...the dilemma. The dilemma as to whether or not the laws of physics are indeed suspended.
So no...I still do not think that everything we have, everything we are, and everything that is....is the function of the reasoning of the human mind. Because if that was the case...then nothing would exist...because there would be no need to process anything. And if there was nothing to process, then what would we be doing with ourselves? We would be vegetables...sitting around with no mental faculties. I cannot conceive of an existence where reason is primary.
Randomassdude: You're right Ricky. Reason is not the primary aspect of our existence. It is actually a concept that is very foreign to most individuals.
First we must understand what role emotions actually play in human reason.
Emotions are often times the ...primary driving factor in human actions. We eat spaghetti because we feel like it. We go to store to buy new clothes because we feel like changing our look. We obey laws often times because we feel that it is right even when it doesn't make sense. You notice the trend here? Feelings.
Emotion is a large part of the human experience.
Reason is a different factor entirely. Lets clarify that for this account by reason we mean logic/rationale. The reasoning mind is capable of rationale. Emotion alone is illogical and irrational. Emotion can catch things that cold logic alone may miss thus emotion is a valuable tool.
Radar is a great example;
Lets say you're captain of a battle ship. You see an incoming enemy stealth bomber. You didn't detect it on radar because it was cloaked but since you see it, you know its there. (Reason-Logic)
Now lets say you see nothing and the sky/water is clear but you detect an enemy sub approaching. You don't see it but your radar picked it up so you know its there but when you get within range you realize it was just a large rock/coral formation. (Emotion)
Now, lets address logic and the initial meaning of this quote.
Nothing within the bounds of great human achievement was the product of an irrational, emotional whim. A person never said, I wish <blank> existed and magically it was willed into being. It requires reason and rationale to conceive a means and it requires passion(emotion) to see it through.
Her: Well put randomassdude. Ricky, I suggest you tone your emotions down a bit. Overly emotional people are generally regarded as mentally unstable and therefore can not fathom reasoning.
Me: So, you like a post that affirms my opinion...and then criticize my opinion...in the same post? *head scratch
Her: Perhaps you missed the last paragraph. If you agreed with what randomassguy wrote then why are you debating the quote at all?
Me: I don't remember agreeing with him.
Me: And the last paragraph has to do with human achievement...things we do. Not...everything that we are or everything that is. Of course people reason and decide to do things.
randomassdude: People justify belief in God, right? They reason that it exists?
Me: Right...but the reason to believe PROceeds something else...often experience...which I don't think you disagree with.
Her: how does one have experience with God? I have never seen God. Have you? We were TAUGHT God exists by others, who most likely, have never experienced God's presence, as well.
randomassdude: Experience. I see what you're saying. Lets say a paranoid schizophrenic has experienced velociraptors gnawing at his ankles for the last 3 days so he decides not to try and walk for fear that his legs may give out. Or perhaps he experiences a tiny pink elephant that follows him everywhere he goes. Are his choices and decisions products of a reasoning mind?
Me: If you would consider an individual with paranoid schizophrenia to be reasonable, yes.
And no Her...I have not seen God. But others have claimed to do so. Who am I to discount that simply because I have not seen God?
randomassguy: Many a paranoid schizophrenic claims to have seen god as well.
Me: Right. But so have many non-schizophrenics.
Her: I can't comment to your statement, Ricky, using clean language... You, my friend, are a dumb ass.
randomassdude: Right, who are you to justify their credibility?
Me: I'm not justifying or unjustifying. Can't I just let it be?
And thanks Her. It would be great if everyone in the world had the same opinions.
randomassdude: Nope. You started this. You tried to discredit the value of the mind.
Me: Really? I missed that part. I think I placed it in an order of functioning. That it is secondary...like it comes SECOND...not in value...but kind of like dessert. You don't eat dessert before the steak...you eat the steak...then the pie.... One isn't better than the other, they simply have their order in the scheme.
I've been arguing the entire time that the basis of our existence cannot be the mind by itself because of order...not value.
Her: The statement never originally stated that reasoning stood alone... it just said reasoning was a key factor
randomassdude: The mind is the primary for all other aspects of existence. Existence does not exist without it.
If a tree falls in the forest and nobody is around to hear it sure it makes a sound. Why? Because it is perceived. There is still earth being mo...ved by the sound vibrations. There is still a downed tree. There are still animal habitats that have changed.
Here lies the real question. If a tree falls in the forest and goes unperceived does it makes sound?
The answer is no. Anything unperceived cannot exist. IF something is perceived it is through the mind and thus the primary basis for all of existence. Can a tree fall in the forest and go unperceived? No. This is not a possibility. There are always repercussions and ripples that stem forth from any occurrence and they are felt and perceived at some point in some manner.
Me: It would seem to me that the author of the line was singling out reason when he or she said, "Everything we are and everything that we have" could be attributed to the reasoning mind. But that's just me.
So Earth didn't exist before there were minds on it to perceive its existence? If so, at what point did it come into existence?
randomassdude: Nope, it did. We perceive it now which validates its history.
I'm off to do homework/eat. Prove to me without a doubt that you exist and I will bow to your philosophical superiority
