Martin Luther King/Robert E. Lee Day?

Xemmy

of the Le'beau family
On November 2, 1983 President Reagan signed a bill that made Martin Luther King, Jr. into a federal holiday.

Over the years there has been alot of reluctance to observe this national holiday for one reason or another. Jesse Helms claimed King wasn't important enough to recieve the honor due to his opposition of the Vietnam War, and because he believed him to be espousing "action-oriented Marxism".
Reagan himself also opposed the holiday, worried about cost concerns. He signed the measure only after Congress passed it with an overwhelming veto-proof majority.

States such as Virginia, Arizona, and Mississipi were in strong opposition to the federal holiday. Virginia had Lee–Jackson–King Day until the year 2000, which celebrated Confederate generals along with King. Arizona seriously opposed it, but eventually caved.

Mississipi on the other hand...

...still shares this co-celebration of Martin Luther King, Jr.'s birthday and Robert E. Lee's birthday on the third Monday of January.

To this day it is known as Martin Luther King/Robert E. Lee day.

Thoughts?

Do you think it's right to have a state's holiday be such an insultingly contridiction?

Do you think they should be forced to change by the Federal government? Or is it their right to have barely disguised racism in the form of a national holiday?

And on a slightly humorious note, should Robert E. Lee have his own day?
 
Do you think it's right to have a state's holiday be such an insultingly contridiction?

Actually, I wouldn't say it was contridicting at all. General Lee and the south wanted sucession. They were simply fighting for their independence. A lot of people seem to think the civil war was fought over slavery which isn't exactly correct. General Lee wasn't a bad person really. In fact, he did say he would free his slaves if it would prevent war with the North. Do I think its wrong for their "days" to be celebrated on the same day? No. Not really.
Do you think they should be forced to change by the Federal government? Or is it their right to have barely disguised racism in the form of a national holiday?

No they shouldn't be forced to change. Its the state's decision on deciding things like this, it has little to nothing to do with the federal government.

And on a slightly humorious note, should Robert E. Lee have his own day?

If someone wants to celebrate him, go for it. We can't really stop him. Stoping someone from celebrating a certain day goes against everything our Constitution stands for. Celebrting the racist a lot of people think he was, is wrong. But celebrating a "hero" who simply tried to lead his army and people to succession isn't.
 
Actually, I wouldn't say it was contridicting at all. General Lee and the south wanted sucession. They were simply fighting for their independence. A lot of people seem to think the civil war was fought over slavery which isn't exactly correct. General Lee wasn't a bad person really. In fact, he did say he would free his slaves if it would prevent war with the North. Do I think its wrong for their "days" to be celebrated on the same day? No. Not really.
Damn decent of Lee. And I apologize for not knowing that about him. However to say they were "simply" fighting for their independence is ludicrous. The Civil War's largest cause was slavery. Without the slavery, there would have been no American Civil War, and the Confederacy is a symbol of slavery. It's still quite contridictory. If it was his home state of Virginia then it would be easier to see it your way, but Mississipi had no other reason to split the holiday, other than to spite it.

No they shouldn't be forced to change. Its the state's decision on deciding things like this, it has little to nothing to do with the federal government.
Good. No argument there.

If someone wants to celebrate him, go for it. We can't really stop him. Stoping someone from celebrating a certain day goes against everything our Constitution stands for. Celebrting the racist a lot of people think he was, is wrong. But celebrating a "hero" who simply tried to lead his army and people to succession isn't.

Agreed.
 
I'm staunchly opposed to a Martin Luther King Jr. Day, for the sole reason being to say the only people who have had to fight for civil rights is black people is incredibly ignorant. There have been all sorts of groups who have fought, and still fight, for equality under the eyes of the law (the biggest currently being the Gay and Lesbian community). Having a day just to celebrate black people being given equal rights is just insulting to every group who has fought for equality over the years.

With that said, what's wrong with having a Robert E. Lee day? How is that an insulting contradiction? Robert E. Lee was the Confederate general, and a man who was incredibly torn over the decision to become the Confederate general, as he was against the idea of secession in the first place. However, like many people of the time, he was more loyal to his state than his country, and so that's the reason he led the Confederate forces. Furthermore, as has been stated, there is plenty of evidence to suggest Robert E. Lee was not in favor of slavery.

Robert E. Lee is not someone who should be looked back upon as an evil man, he was just someone who did what he felt was right.

However to say they were "simply" fighting for their independence is ludicrous. The Civil War's largest cause was slavery. Without the slavery, there would have been no American Civil War, and the Confederacy is a symbol of slavery.
This is completely inaccurate. Slavery wasn't the lone cause, in fact, it was merely an example of the cause. The Civil War was fought over secession, not slavery. The North didn't invade the South because they had slaves, they invaded because they were trying to break away from the Union. In fact, the widely heralded Emancipation Proclamation did not free slaves, it just freed the slaves in territories under Confederate control (think about how ridiculous that is for a second). Slaves in the states held by Union forces were not freed.

To say the Civil War was fought because of slavery is the winner's revisionist spin which morally validates their invasion of the Confederate states. It most certainly was not the "largest cause". Thing such as the economical differences between the North and South (and the regulations which stemmed from those differences), as well as the issue of State vs. Federal rights were far more important for the states which wound up seceding from the Union.
 
I'm staunchly opposed to a Martin Luther King Jr. Day, for the sole reason being to say the only people who have had to fight for civil rights is black people is incredibly ignorant. There have been all sorts of groups who have fought, and still fight, for equality under the eyes of the law (the biggest currently being the Gay and Lesbian community). Having a day just to celebrate black people being given equal rights is just insulting to every group who has fought for equality over the years.

MLK Day isn't about black people. It was about what Martin Luther King Jr. himself did to strengthen civil rights during his time. Just because he's black doesn't mean he embodied the only type of person to fight for civil rights. This day recognizes EVERYONE who fought for civil rights during the movement, whether it be black, white, Hispanic, Asian, etc.

If you think the movement was his way of advancing black people, and black people only, then you have certainly missed his point.
 
This is completely inaccurate. Slavery wasn't the lone cause, in fact, it was merely an example of the cause. The Civil War was fought over secession, not slavery. The North didn't invade the South because they had slaves, they invaded because they were trying to break away from the Union. In fact, the widely heralded Emancipation Proclamation did not free slaves, it just freed the slaves in territories under Confederate control (think about how ridiculous that is for a second). Slaves in the states held by Union forces were not freed.
I said "largest", not lone. Lincoln was against the expansion of slavery, it was his biggest campaign point. The secessions would not have happened without that issue- that's a pretty safe bet. The other reasons for secession were minor inconvienences in comparison. And the EP wasn't ridiculous. Lincoln made it a war goal to raise moral. And the Slaves were freed immediately AFTER the Civil War. So what if they weren't freed during the war?

To say the Civil War was fought because of slavery is the winner's revisionist spin which morally validates their invasion of the Confederate states. It most certainly was not the "largest cause". Thing such as the economical differences between the North and South (and the regulations which stemmed from those differences), as well as the issue of State vs. Federal rights were far more important for the states which wound up seceding from the Union.
The economic differences of the North and South? That's what we're going to call it? Let's look at that a bit. What was the economic difference?- South had more farm land. The South used slaves for that farm land. The North had industry, which didn't take slaves. Why would economy difference be an issue to fight a war, and what regulations would be stemmed from that? It would mostly have something to do with slavery wouldn't it? As for the State vs. Federal rights. Everyone agreed that states had certain rights—but did those rights carry over when a citizen left that state? The Southern position was that citizens of every state had the right to take their property anywhere in the U.S. and not have it taken away—specifically they could bring their slaves anywhere and they would remain slaves. Northerners rejected this "right" because it would violate the right of a free state to outlaw slavery within its borders.

All the things you mentioned were HEAVILY mixed in with Slavery.
 
Lincoln was against the expansion of slavery, it was his biggest campaign point.

I'm going to have to disagree with you on this one, dudeman. He was pushing a no-slavery act to gain the votes of abolishionists, and to fuck with the South after they were telling anyone that would listen about seceding from the Union. Lincoln was trying to win the war, not free the slaves.
 
I'm going to have to disagree with you on this one, dudeman. He was pushing a no-slavery act to gain the votes of abolishionists, and to fuck with the South after they were telling anyone that would listen about seceding from the Union. Lincoln was trying to win the war, not free the slaves.

I never said he was. But he was trying limit anymore slave states from coming in. So what if it was to gain votes and fuck with the South? It was still his biggest campaign point.

And are you trying to tell me that Lincoln was trying to start a war before he was in office?
 
I never said he was. But he was trying limit anymore slave states from coming in. So what if it was to gain votes and fuck with the South? It was still his biggest campaign point.

I'm pretty sure he didn't actually care if the slaves were freed or not. He did it so he can wound the south while they were trying to secede.

And are you trying to tell me that Lincoln was trying to start a war before he was in office?

Uh, no? Where did you even get that from?
 
I'm pretty sure he didn't actually care if the slaves were freed or not. He did it so he can wound the south while they were trying to secede.
I never made mention of WHY Lincoln did what he did. Just that he did it.

Uh, no? Where did you even get that from?

The end of your post seemed to imply it, I was probably just reading it wrong.....nevermind forget it.
 
MLK Day isn't about black people.
Correction..it SHOULDN'T be about black people. It SHOULD be about civil rights only.

It was about what Martin Luther King Jr. himself did to strengthen civil rights during his time.
Which is absurd. Millions of people have fought for civil rights in this country's history. Why do we give one day for one man who was merely a private citizen? Because he was black and he was shot. To say otherwise is silly.

Just because he's black doesn't mean he embodied the only type of person to fight for civil rights. This day recognizes EVERYONE who fought for civil rights during the movement, whether it be black, white, Hispanic, Asian, etc.
But it doesn't, now does it?

Martin Luther King Jr. day should be removed, and instead it should be called "Civil Rights Day". And if you don't think Martin Luther King day represents a "black equality day", then change the name of the holiday, and see how much support you get from the black community.

I said "largest", not lone.
Which is still wrong. :shrug:

Lincoln was against the expansion of slavery
Abraham Lincoln said:
I understand a proposed amendment to the Constitution—which amendment, however, I have not seen—has passed Congress, to the effect that the Federal Government shall never interfere with the domestic institutions of the States, including that of persons held to service. To avoid misconstruction of what I have said, I depart from my purpose not to speak of particular amendments so far as to say that, holding such a provision to now be implied constitutional law, I have no objection to its being made express and irrevocable.
http://www.bartleby.com/124/pres31.html

Oh yeah?

The secessions would not have happened without that issue- that's a pretty safe bet.
This is what's called a fallacy, and this case, you are most likely wrong. You cannot say what would have happened without that issue, but given the differences in the way the country was set up, it is far more likely secession would have occurred than not.

The other reasons for secession were minor inconvienences in comparison.
Good to see your high school education outweighs the collective opinions of the majority of historians. :rolleyes:

And the EP wasn't ridiculous.
Logically, it was. The point of it was to convince the rebellious states to come back to the Union. The idea was that if slavery was legal in the North, then a state who wanted to preserve the institution of slavery would throw down their arms and rejoin the Union.

You can see how well that worked out.

Lincoln made it a war goal to raise moral.
No, he didn't. He made it a political tool to rally support for his presidency, and to undermine the combined strength of the Confederacy.

And the Slaves were freed immediately AFTER the Civil War. So what if they weren't freed during the war?
What do you mean "so what"? The fact they weren't freed during the war proves the Civil War wasn't fought to free slaves, because the North didn't free the slaves until the 13th Amendment.

The war was fought over secession. Had the South not seceded, there would have been no war. To say otherwise is simply stupid, as slavery had existed since the birth of our country.

The economic differences of the North and South? That's what we're going to call it? Let's look at that a bit. What was the economic difference?- South had more farm land. The South used slaves for that farm land. The North had industry, which didn't take slaves. Why would economy difference be an issue to fight a war, and what regulations would be stemmed from that? It would mostly have something to do with slavery wouldn't it?
Not really. The northern states were transitioning towards an industry/factory based economy, whereas the southern states were content to remain an agricultural economy. Thus, you had two regions of the country who saw each other, and themselves, as different from one another. Of course, just like today, both regions fought to better their position, however partly due to the way the party system worked at the time as well as the greater population of the northern states, the northern states passed more and more laws and regulations which protected their interests, and put southern interests further and further towards the back. Southern states resented these taxes and trade regulations, as they worked against their way of life.

The reality is that many many of the people in the southern states couldn't afford slaves.

As for the State vs. Federal rights. Everyone agreed that states had certain rights—but did those rights carry over when a citizen left that state? The Southern position was that citizens of every state had the right to take their property anywhere in the U.S. and not have it taken away—specifically they could bring their slaves anywhere and they would remain slaves. Northerners rejected this "right" because it would violate the right of a free state to outlaw slavery within its borders.

All the things you mentioned were HEAVILY mixed in with Slavery.
That's such a narrow view of the situation as it existed. State vs. Federal rights was an argument that existed almost from the moment our Constitution was signed. The example I gave earlier about tariffs protecting northern interests is a great representation of one of the main arguments for state rights.

In all honesty, the northern states in general were not that concerned with slavery, as the examples I have given you have shown. The political issue of slavery was far more heated than the feelings of the general populace. However, due to the policies which were enacted which supported northern industries to the detriment of southern agriculture, southerners were, in many cases, misled into thinking the northern states would try and ruin their way of life.


To sum everything up, it's really simple. Had the Confederate states not seceded, there would have been no Civil War. In fact, it is entirely possible that had there not been a Civil War, the institution of slavery may have existed for many decades longer than it did. To equate it to a more understandable example, slavery was like vomiting. Vomiting sucks, but it's not the reason you are sick. Having the stomach flu causes you to throw up. Slavery wasn't the reason for secession or the Civil War, it was merely the most visible issue dealing with the subject.
 
Correction..it SHOULDN'T be about black people. It SHOULD be about civil rights only.

Martin Luther King Jr. lived in a time where the main victim of civil inequality were black people. To say that he didn't support anything else just because his main focus was on the advancement of equality in black people is silly. Reading ANY of his speeches could tell you that he supported civil equality, you know, equally.

Which is absurd. Millions of people have fought for civil rights in this country's history. Why do we give one day for one man who was merely a private citizen? Because he was black and he was shot. To say otherwise is silly.

He led the civil rights movement and was by far the most well known. His name was a household term then, and it is now. He brought most of the attention to the movement, and he deserves the recognition he gets.

But it doesn't, now does it?

Martin Luther King Jr. day should be removed, and instead it should be called "Civil Rights Day". And if you don't think Martin Luther King day represents a "black equality day", then change the name of the holiday, and see how much support you get from the black community.

Okay, I should have clarified. It represents the person who led the struggle that led to one of the biggest revolutions in equality during the 20th century, since the slaves were freed.
 
Martin Luther King Jr. lived in a time where the main victim of civil inequality were black people. To say that he didn't support anything else just because his main focus was on the advancement of equality in black people is silly. Reading ANY of his speeches could tell you that he supported civil equality, you know, equally.



He led the civil rights movement and was by far the most well known. His name was a household term then, and it is now. He brought most of the attention to the movement, and he deserves the recognition he gets.



Okay, I should have clarified. It represents the person who led the struggle that led to one of the biggest revolutions in equality during the 20th century, since the slaves were freed.

You do know the civil rights movement has been going on for centuries all the way back to before the Revolutionary War. Crispus Attucks, William Lloyd Garrison, Frederick Douglas, Harriet Tubman, Rosa Parks, Malcolm X, Medgar EVers, etc. were all part of the movement and they should be recognized just as much as Martin Luther King Jr. is. I did a bibliography on Jews and the civil rights movement freshman year and they were just an intrical part as well. I just rather have the day be called "Civil Rights Day" and not exclude others as the current name appears to do.
 
Martin Luther King Jr. lived in a time where the main victim of civil inequality were black people. To say that he didn't support anything else just because his main focus was on the advancement of equality in black people is silly. Reading ANY of his speeches could tell you that he supported civil equality, you know, equally.
I never said that HE didn't support the rights of other people, what I said is that the day has come to represent equality for black people, while pushing aside all other groups which have fought for equality.

He led the civil rights movement and was by far the most well known. His name was a household term then, and it is now. He brought most of the attention to the movement, and he deserves the recognition he gets.
The holiday was named after him because he was black and he was shot.

To say otherwise is just false. Hell, the legislation for Martin Luther King day began FOUR DAYS after his assassination. He was black and he was killed...that's how he got a holiday named after him.

Okay, I should have clarified. It represents the person who led the struggle that led to one of the biggest revolutions in equality during the 20th century, since the slaves were freed.
Why should we bother representing one person? Why not represent the millions of people who worked for equality and civil rights? Why does the symbol of civil rights have to be an assassinated black man?

Why not, instead, have "Civil Rights Day"? This way you honor ALL people who have worked for civil rights. That's what we should have, not a Martin Luther King day. I'm firmly opposed to Martin Luther King day.
 
You do know the civil rights movement has been going on for centuries all the way back to before the Revolutionary War. Crispus Attucks, William Lloyd Garrison, Frederick Douglas, Harriet Tubman, Rosa Parks, Malcolm X, Medgar EVers, etc. were all part of the movement and they should be recognized just as much as Martin Luther King Jr. is. I did a bibliography on Jews and the civil rights movement freshman year and they were just an intrical part as well. I just rather have the day be called "Civil Rights Day" and not exclude others as the current name appears to do.

That's fine. But like I said, he led the biggest revolution in equality in the 20th century, and was the leader of the movement during his era.

Malcolm X didn't have a message everyone really agreed with, as he supported separation between black and white people for a long time, as well as black nationalism.

Harriet Tubman was of the previous generation.

The others aren't generally recognized names during the civil rights movement.

The fact is, Martin Luther King, Jr. is one of the strongest, if not THE strongest name in civil rights history.

--------

I never said that HE didn't support the rights of other people, what I said is that the day has come to represent equality for black people, while pushing aside all other groups which have fought for equality.

The holiday was named after him because he was black and he was shot.

To say otherwise is just false. Hell, the legislation for Martin Luther King day began FOUR DAYS after his assassination. He was black and he was killed...that's how he got a holiday named after him.

If you think that him being shot was the only thing worthy of recognition out of Martin Luther King, Jr., then there's really not much more to talk about. I can't convince you that his leadership during the civil rights struggle was worthy.

Why should we bother representing one person? Why not represent the millions of people who worked for equality and civil rights? Why does the symbol of civil rights have to be an assassinated black man?

Why not, instead, have "Civil Rights Day"? This way you honor ALL people who have worked for civil rights. That's what we should have, not a Martin Luther King day. I'm firmly opposed to Martin Luther King day.

Uh, there's an entire month for black history, that generally centers itself around both the Harlem Renaissance as well as the civil rights movement. Martin Luther King day is a memorial for him that falls on his birthday, that is well deserved simply because of his efforts.

Also for Hispanic History. And Native American history.
 

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