M.O.T.Y. - Hulk Hogan vs The Rock, 2002

[Dragonslayer]

Well, I guess the WM18 DVD was the first wrestling DVD I got, back in the day when Silvervision was just starting to bring the PPVs to DVDs again (and more importantly, also releasing them over here) - but that DVD I actually imported, just because I HAD to see that match.

And damn - it was sure worth it!

Now the (technical) wrestling purists can say what they want - that was hands down one of the greatest matches of all time.

See, back in the 80ies, Hogan was wrestling basically the same matches, and we all loved that stuff (well, those who were around back then, anyways ), and we all turned in to shows and PPVs; and many turned in JUST to see Hogan. Take WM3 - a match between Hogan and Andre The Giant; that could never possibly be a great technical match - not in the 1950ies, not in the 1980ies, and not past the year 2000 - but it still was a tremendous match a lot of people came to see; it was the match that sold out the Pontiac Silverdome with 93,000 people which by itself is an incredible feat.

Now we all loved that time, we (have to) acknowledge that it was that time that put wrestling on the map; that it was Hogan who put wrestling on the map - and it was those same matches with those epic proportions (such as Hogan vs Andre, Hogan vs Slaughter, Hogan vs Warrior), with tremendous drama, and history-making potential, the larger-than-life feeling to them, that defined the era, and defined wrestling as the thing we love so much today.

And how could one say then, that a match of that very same spectacular magnitude; with two of the biggest icons EVER, a match that really did not differ all that much from the matches Hogan had in the 80ies in terms of moves (simply because he just is not and never was a great technical wrestler), those matches we loved - that this later match, even though it had that same drama, that same history-making appeal, that same larger-than-life feeling, was not a great match?

In my opinion anyway, that was one of the single greatest matches ever, with a HUGE crowd reaction, the likes of which I can hardly remember (probably another Hogan reaction, back when he turned heel at Bash at the Beach to form the nWo) - for me, especially when I was growing up, wrestling was never about great technical matches (and back in those days, the matches just weren't as great as they are today either), but about great moments - and Hogan just had the greatest of them, second to none - not even Austin, Rock, Flair or HBK or whoever else you want.

Now the Attitude era had a different feeling to it altogether - that was a more down-to-earth, stick-it-to-the-man, no-nonsense feeling, away from those larger than life characters of the Hogan age. A different feeling, but also a decent appeal of its own. For me, though, as child of the 80ies, the larger than life-era will always be more appealing. For me, nothing will ever reach the significance of a match like Hogan vs Andre, or Hogan vs Warrior, Hogan vs Sting at Starrcade - or Hogan vs Rock (the latter only for the reason that they do indeed reflect that larger-than-life-spirit of the Hogan era)

Other matches are matches (if technically great matches) - but those matches, those showdowns, are MONUMENTS, simply for the emotional capacity of them. And after all it is that emotional involvement, the integration of storylines behind it, the drama around it, that differentiates wrestling from other ("real") sports - and wrestling can only survive by that emotional factor; and so this factor must define a great match just as great technical prowess can. I think both understandings of "great" matches need to be acknowledged; wrestling without characters ultimately just comes down to several half-naked guys clutching each other - and no matter how technically great those guys could pull of their matches, in the end they would just remain stale and ultimately, no one would give a damn about them anymore.

Take as good example what is often critisized about the wrestling business nowadays: that storylines are over too fast, belts don't mean a thing, angles are not interesting - and see that as a result, people just turn it off and ratings drop; and that EVEN THOUGH WWE still has quite a number of technically absolutely capable superstars; only, if they do not have that "character" to them, if they do not have that capability to emotionally involve people that men like Hogan, Rock or Austin had - all the pure wrestling talent in the world is to no avail.

I believe that right now, WWE is somehow "searching its soul" again. They had a clear vision in the 80ies, and it worked to put WWE on the map. Vince was forced to change that vision in the 90ies due to the fight with WCW, and found the "Attitude" era. And now once again a new era has come, but one that still lacks its specific feel, that still needs to find its clear-cut direction. And if they achieve that, then I do believe we can once again see great matches of epic proportions between great characters; for if you have a character, if you have a spectacle, if you have a story, if you have a hype - then the worst match can still be one for the ages.

I'm sure quite a number of people (maybe quite a large one, too) will remember the aforementioned Tag match between Angle/Benoit and Edge/Mysterio. But EVERYONE will remember Hogan vs Andre, or Hogan vs Rock.

 

[Davi323]

Very well said, Dragonslayer. Its not always the match itself, as it is sometimes the matchup, and who is involved in the match. Wrestlemania III has always been my favorite WWF/E PPV, because not only did it have the biggest match ever in the history of Pro wrestling, between Andre and Hogan, but it also had what in my mind, is the best technical match in all of North American wrestling, in Savage/Steamboat. But, for as good as Savage/Steamboat was, WMIII doesn't sell 93 thousand tickets because of it...It does sell because of Andre the Giant meeting Hulk Hogan...You are absolutely right about wrestling being about the moments...Which of us (well, those of us old enough to actually remember it) can still picture the iconic image of WWF Champion Hulk Hogan staring down WWF Intercontinental Champion Ultimate Warrior, for their showdown at Wrestlemania VI? That stare down is iconic, and will live on, despite the fact that neither Hogan or Warrior are strong technical wrestlers. Heading into Wrestlemania 18, we were supposed to HATE Hollywood Hulk Hogan, he was set up as the villain, with the Rock being the ultimate face...That's what was supposed to happen...cheer Rock, boo Hogan. Yet, once we actually get to the PPV, once Hulk Hogan appears at the curtain, at Wrestlemania...it was 1987 again, and Hulk Hogan was the freaking MAN! Instantly Hogan is the face, Rock the heel. The match itself wasn't technically proficient, but, when you add in the crowd reaction, the anticipation of the match, this match is one of the WWF/E's all time greatest moments.

 

[The Champ is here]

A pure wrestling fan loves this match because this is -or was- are old school vs. New school match up of which the entire industry has never seen. These two guys -Hogan and Rock did nothing in the ring for about 2 minutes, and every single person in the arena and at home were chanting The Rock or Hogan's name, and thats what sports entertainment is all about dispite the overall performance of the match.

Crowd interaction makes the WWE what it is, chanting for your hero and booing for the "bad guy".

One of my top 3 favorite matches of alltime is Hbk vs. HHH Sumerslam 2002. But the reason this was not the Match of the year was because -back then- this match could not draw non wrestleing fans to want to see this match because it was for pure wrestleing fans only unlike Hogan/Rock Which everybody in Sports period wanted to see.

My two other favorite matches are Rock/Austin WM17 and Either a match With Shawn michaels of the past or the next Shawn michaels well-done performance match.

 

[Fizzy]

yes it is by far the fans bassiclly said fuck u vince we are gonna see face hulk vs face rock even though most fans were on hulks side then the staredown god i got goosebumps it was awsome and the match was fucking amazing! i was suprised

 

[Y 2 Jake]

Personally I don't like to base my opinions on what other peoples reactions are. I'm sure it happens. Just not consciously. So If I was watching The Rock vs. Hulk Hogan at Wrestle Mania X8 I wouldn't be marking out because veryone else is. I'd be sitting there watching the match. I don't care if little Billy is having a good old time next to me. Good on him if he is. But I'd prefer to watch the match and then decide if I think it's good. Which is what I did at home. I watched it when it was on PPV. I didn't not enjoy it. But I wasn't jumping around all excited. I then bought the DVD, which i do with every WWE DVD. I then watched it like I always do. On mute, with music in the background. Part of this is because WWE commentary is awful, the other is because it's easier to asses a match if you aren't hearing other people have a great time. With some matches this doesn't make any difference. The natural quality of the match shines through. But with this one it doesn't, because nothing really happens.

Anyway. If Hogan/Austin ever happens (which it won't) then this match won't mean shit.

 

[vandam]

I was present in the "dome" for that match. I was in the bleeders at the top and the building was shaking.....it was the most bizarre feeling in the world. When Hogan locked up with rock and pushed him in the corner........the crowd went nuts.......It was a match that only the rock and Hogan could pull off......they are both so over and The Rock atheltism carried the wrestling part........but hogan played the crowd that nite better than anybody else in the history of wrestling. Watch the match on DVD to get the true appreciation of it,i remember the WWE being so pissed that during the Replay of mania they dubbed over the crowd completely marking out for Hogan. It was the match of the year......I don't care about some ordinary match with a bunch of high-spots.........nobody could get that type of reaction........even if someone went off a 100 foot ladder through 80 flamming tables the performers owned the nite and the buzz after that match was incredible nobody even cared about Y2J/HHH everyone was just talking about the history that was made!!!!

 

[Y 2 Jake]

It was a match that only the rock and Hogan could pull off

The Rock was never the wrestling star that Steve Austin was. Hogan vs. Austin was WWE's first choice for a reason. It would draw more, and would have got more of a reaction. Ok so The Rock wasn't a bad replacement. But Austin vs. Hogan would have been a hundred times more important.

but hogan played the crowd that nite better than anybody else in the history of wrestling. made!!!!

Hogan was a heel, but he acted like a face. He stole The Rocks heat when he shouldn't have. Not very professional.

 

[vandam]

The reason why i think Hogan/Rock was better because the rocks facial expressions sent the crowd into a frenzy........you think austin would of sold hogans power during the initial lock-up.......and the look on the rocks face when hogan "hulked-up" was priceless. In wrestling the crowd determines who the face and heels are not hogan,they both went with what they were given by the fans. Austin and Hogan would have been sloppy because both guys have countless injuries........The rock had to drag hogan to the end of the match because hogan broke a rib.....and the rock was a far better wrestler than austin and was pretty much the perfect choice for hogan to work with since hogan cant wrestle. Austin/Hogan could have happened and the rock couldve wrestled scott hall but i would never change that match it was the highlight of me being a wrestling fan.

How can hogan steal the rock's heat if hogan's acting like a face.......makes no sense.

 

[Y 2 Jake]

The reason why i think Hogan/Rock was better because the rocks facial expressions sent the crowd into a frenzy........you think austin would of sold hogans power during the initial lock-up.......and the look on the rocks face when hogan "hulked-up" was priceless.

Austin is the second biggest star in the history of moder wrestling for a reason. He can do everything. Austin could do anything The Rock could.

In wrestling the crowd determines who the face and heels are not hogan,they both went with what they were given by the fans.

No. The Rock did. He went out and did what he usually did. Hogan went out and acted like it was 1985 again. When in fact he should have been acting like it was 1996.

Austin and Hogan would have been sloppy because both guys have countless injuries........

It wouldn't have been sloppy. Because not enough would have happened for them to get sloppy. There would be no need for either to even leave their feet.

The rock had to drag hogan to the end of the match because hogan broke a rib.....

Didn't know he'd broken a rib. Did Hogan tell you this? He does tend to embellish a little.

and the rock was a far better wrestler than austin and was pretty much the perfect choice for hogan to work with since hogan cant wrestle.

That must be why they asked Austin first and he declined.

Austin/Hogan could have happened and the rock couldve wrestled scott hall but i would never change that match it was the highlight of me being a wrestling fan.

Well done.

How can hogan steal the rock's heat if hogan's acting like a face.......makes no sense.

Exactly. Why was Hogan acting like a face? He was a heel.

 

[Dragonslayer]

As will come to no surprise for those who read my earlier posts, I tend to disagree a bit with King Jake's opinion.

1) First off, I was a bit, let's say, intrigued by your "way" of watching wrestling, which by itself would naturally lead to a "negative" way of viewing the Hogan/Rock match. You stated that you watched it with the sound muted and music in the background, so you can focus on the wrestling, which of course is your choice and your right; however to me, that would be missing the point and the essence of what professional wrestling is about entirely.

Agreed, you focus on the "athletic" aspect apparently - however, in my opinion, pro wrestling just isn't at all about the athletic aspect; it is about the excitement, the drama, the almost kathargic effect first, and the athletic factor only a far second. How else could guys like Hogan, Andre, Kevin Nash, Goldberg etc... (basically any big man or guy who can't wrestle) ever have become as big draws as they did (some more so, some less), if not for the focus on the AWE-factor that pro wrestling really lives off.

Of course it is nice to see a good wrestling match in terms of athletic ability, storytelling, high spots etc... as it also provides for good entertainment, and can help establish those guys, who do not have that AWE-factor (be it for their size or look or whatever reason) naturally to create that factor, simply by illustrating how tough as competitors they are; but that does not take away from the fact that a "good" pro wrestler can be created simply by having the AWE factor beforehand as well, and be no less (and sometimes more) effective than the "great technical wrestler".

The only problem I see when determining a "great match" simply by their moves and the progression, and excluding something so vital to the entire concept as fan reactions (which were, hands down, simply what made Rock / Hogan just THAT great), is that pro wrestling at the end of the day, just is not a competitive sport. And this is really where the "technically great match" factor fails me, and this is where I think the fact that drama, awe-factor and spectacle just count that much more in pro wrestling is established.

So as others have said before me, I tend to say - there are two kinds of "greatest" matches; there are those great matches which provide in-ring excitment because of their storytelling, because of the workrate and the moves; and there are those great matches which are great because of the build up, the hype, the drama, the spectacle, which to my mind is the core of professional wrestling, the one ingredient without which the entire concept of pro wrestling would not work out, since it is not a "real", "competitive" sport.

But well, that's just my two cents, and of course it is your right to "assess" matches any way you want, just as I do; and the way you do it, of course Hogan / Rock (or basically any match involving Hogan) would not be a great match - simply because Hogan is not and never was a good technical wrestler.

2) As far as Hogan "acting unprofessional" by being "face" in that match; I personally didn't think Hogan really acted as a face; he did the back scratches, which have become vintage Hollywood Hogan, he did the weightlifter-belt whips which are too; he did eye gauges and all that stuff.

If anything, it was his "hulking up" at the end which was "face Hogan"; but he did never play with the crowd like Hulkamania Hogan would. If anything, it was Rock who decided to go out of his face character a little and be more "heelish" (which is not as clear cut a line with the Rock as with Hogan, since Rock's character by its "Attitude Era" origin is more edgy, more badass by nature than Hogans, and there is a WORLD difference between Hulkamania Hogan and Hollywood Hogan in terms of heel/face position, whereas there is only a comparatively minor tweak in "just a little more arrogance" between face Rock and heel Rock), as he actually retaliated the weightlifter belt whips with actually spitting on the belt and using it himself. The only real "face" action by Hogan was when he was hulking up AFTER the match, but that also only started off when Rock invited him - so I wouldn't say that was out of character for either, as that was most likely scripted and not spontaneous (correct me if I'm wrong). I think neither broke much character in that match; they merely took what the crowd gave them and played with the audience, but never to such extent that it would have meant a real breach of character for either; and that is something a pro wrestler needs to be able to do more than anything else, and those two guys could do it better than anybody else.

Agreed, Austin vs Hogan would probably have been even more exciting, given Austin's more important role for a longer period of time than the Rock's, as he had been basically the face of the Attitude Era, but Rock was definitely a very worthy substitute, and given the physical state Austin was in already at that time, it probably would have been an even worse encounter wrestling-wise, since neither Hogan nor Austin would have been able to take many bumps. But from the AWE-factor, Austin vs Hogan would probably have been a few steps above Rock/Hogan. But it never happened, so we gotta judge from Rock/Hogan, and that was, hands down, one of the greatest matches ever.

 

[Davi323]

Hogan did not come out of the back as a face. He came out as Hollywood Hogan, leader of the nWo, a heel. Rock came out of the back as the face. If you watch the beginning of the match, it is very clear that Hogan and Rock were just as surprised as everyone else was that the crowd rooted for Hogan instead of Rock. So, like the professionals they are, they went with it. The crowd essentially dictated who was who. Hulk Hogan at Wrestlemania CAN NEVER be the heel. Not truly. During any other PPV, maybe. But not Wrestlemania. The fans cheered, Hogan and Rock adapted to it. Even the Rock wanted to join in, it was obvious that he was trying to hold back the biggest grin ever. Rock understood the relationship between Hulk Hogan and Wrestlemania, Hulk Hogan understood the relationship between Hulk Hogan and Wrestlemania. It was the first time in years that a WWF/E crowd got to see Hogan at Wrestlemania. What did you think was going to happen?