[Legend Tournament Final] Bret Hart Vs Ric Flair

[Hyorinmaru]

Bret Hart

Born into the famous Hart family of wrestling he more than lived up to the expectations. He is a 5x WWE Champion, a 2x WCW Champion, a 3x WWE World Tag Team Champion as a part of the Hart Foundation, a 1x WCW Tag Team Champion with Goldberg, a 4x WCW US Champion and a 2x WWE Intercontinental Champion. He also won the first King of The Ring PPV in '93 and is Co-winner of the '94 Royal Rumble Along with Lex Luger. IN addition to the 16 titles he held he also is a recipient of 16 different awards from both the PWI and WON.



Nature Boy Ric Flair

1I can't say much about Ric Flair that you guys don't already know. He's a 16 time World Champion holding the top titles in the NWA, WCW and WWE. He has held Tag Team Titles and other singles titles. he is one of the most charismatic Superstars in the history of Wrestling.
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[IrishCanadian25]

Well, this is a legends tournament, so I will be voting on who I feel is the bigger / greater legend in pro wrestling moreso than who the best wrestler actually is.

And that legend in Ric Flair.

Despite any criticism about his in-ring product, his attitude, or whatever, the man has won a myriad of titles from a who's who of pro wrestlers - Harley Race, Randy Savage, Vader, Dusty Rhodes, Sting, etc. Unlike other legends like Terry Funk, if you're talking Flair, he is synonymous with WWE, WCW, and NWA. That's an accomplishment unto itself.

The man has won major titles in 4 different decades with three huge promotions. He led the all-time difinitive stable in wrestling history. He mentored such greats as Randy Orton, Shawn Michaels, and Triple H. There is a reason everyone yells "Whoooooo!" when a knife-edge chop is performed.

The man is a legend through and through, and while I'd probably vote for Hart in any other tournament style in a head-to-head matchup with Flair, in this one I have to give Flair the nod. Bigger legend than Hart.

 

[WillYouStopIt!]

Ric Flair will probably win this final because he has mastered the art of making everyone on Earth for the past 30-40 yrs believe that he is the greatest pro wrestler of all time. Ric Flair, as mentioned by others in the great thread comparing Savage to Flair in the old school section, is the most overrated wrestler in the history of this great sport. I don't care what anyone says, nobody has been praised more for doing less in the ring. It's amazing that this man continues to get the attention he does when you really consider how mediocre he was in the ring. Bret Hart easily has Flair beat in every category with the exception of mic skills. He was a bigger draw worldwide, he had far better, and I mean FAR BETTER in ring ability than flair and he has had more legendary matches in his career than Flair has.

If Ric Flair is such a big legend then how come it took three WWF guys in Hall, Nash and Hogan to finally take the WCW to the top. If Ric Flair was as big a legend as he is made out to be then he should have been able to do that himself before bischoff and the ex-wwf crew came into the picture. I just don't know what it is about this guy that makes him so legendary, numerous wrestlers, including many that have already been eliminated in this tournament, have outdone him in almost every category.

My vote goes to the best there is, the best there was and the best there ever will be...Bret The Hitman Hart. All one has to do is look at this man's resume to see how truly great he was. I think people have to remember that we are discussing PRO-WRESTLING here. Wrestling is the key, not cutting promos, flashy clothing, or WHOOOOOOS. In the end we all watch this great sport because we love WRESTLING, and therefore nobody is more qualified to be called the greatest Legend of Wrestling than arguably the greatest wrestler and storyteller the squared-circle has ever seen.

 

[Emmet]

Bret Hart all the way.

I myself don't understand what the big fuss about Ric Flair, as Stu Hart and Bret Hart have both said about Flair matches 'if you have seen 1, you have seen them all'. He follows the same pattern in every match Ive ever watched of Flairs. I generally think chops is the most pointless move in wrestling. Like Bret said, the point in wrestling is your meant to make it look like you are hurting someone, not really hurting them like chops do. Flair wouldn't know wrestling psychology if it hit him in the face. Like Bret says about Flair 'he wrestles 20 minute non-stop non-psychology matches'

Flair was all style over substance IMO. All the flashy clothes and robes and whatnot, in the ring Bret Hart ate him alive. When it comes to technical ability, jesus there isn't even a comparision. Bret changed his matches due to the size of his opponent. Flair kept the same style of match no matter who the opponent. Whether it be Undertaker or HBK or Dusty Rhodes or whatever.

I dont think I need to talk about how brillant Hart was. Its already been said by everyone. But I could gurantee now as for a bigger legend between the two, if you went around the world asking who Bret Hart and Ric Flair was I would nearly bet my life on it that people would recognise Hart's name before Flair's.

Flair is vastly overrated. Hart is simply the best for me.

 

[Big Sexy]

as Stu Hart and Bret Hart have both said about Flair matches 'if you have seen 1, you have seen them all'

If that isn't the pot calling the kettle black then I don't know what is. Bret might have had better technical matches, but Flair had more entertaining matches. For every great match that Hart had, I can think of 2 or 3 that Flair had. Flair was also a much better entertainer outside of the ring. Flair is an icon who was successful in the NWA, WCW, and WWE. Bret Hart does not even belong in the finals. Flair should win this easily.

 

[My$terio_Fan]

So it comes down to the guy hated by most smarks and praised to no end from the WWE, against the guy smarks get fucking bonars from, but who the WWE could shit on?

Anyways, when your talking about who is the bigger legend there is no right or wrong answer. Bret Hart was an amazing talent who's wrestling skills could rival the best of them. He showed amazing amounts of passion for his craft, but the thing he will be remember most by many is the Screw Job which made him seem like a whiny, ass, bitch, who like any employee should have listen to their boss(although I don't nessacary agree).

Then you have Ric Flair. This man also showed amazing passion for the business. He was sucessful pretty much everywhere he went and has a huge following. The last couple of years made marks love Flair even more. He was given the reputation of being the best thing in wrestling history(although everyone knew Hogan was the bigger draw).

In the end for whatever reasons, Ric Flair is more known by the public and I think because of the WWE love he will go down as the bigger legend(even though Hogan is the biggest of all...like it or not)

 

[Mr. TM]

Ric Flair or Bret Hart.

Both are Legends. Both will always be remembered for their impact on the wrestling world. When one looks at these two and judged them on their careers, judges which one of these two will be remembered as the biggest Legend, it is almost too hard to fathom. To answer this question, we must define what a Legend is in professional wrestling. To understand that question, we must understand what it means to be a successful professional wrestler.

A title win. Titles are great to win by wrestlers. When a wrestler wins a title, that shows that they are in the good books of a company. How do you get in the good books? Either by being the best wrestler in said company at that role, or the infamous route of backstage politics. As far as we know, Bret Hart never did work his way up through the back. He had respect in the back, but he was never in the back pocket of the boss. Ric Flair, however true it may have been, could have been.

Success in a company. Ric Flair was successful in the NWA and the WCW during times when those two companies were dying or not fully started up. He had success, but it was not with the WWE. However, Bret Hart had success in the WWE on a bad drop in the cycle. I am not sure we can judge either wrestler on those points, having one over the other. equal amounts of highs in either company are matched.

Feuds. Ric Flair had hundreds. Usually with the four horsemen versus Dusty Rhodes. He had some of the best feuds ever in the WWE. Up until the 90s. That was when Bret Hart took over and had some great feuds of the time. His biggest would have been with Shawn Michaels, Owen Hart, and Stone Cold.

Matches. Ric Flair is often talked about having some of the best matches ever. Whoever was watching those matches either had the real wrestlers name mixed up, or were blind. Ric Flair typically had poor matches. I am not even judging his limited moveset (which all in all doesn't matter too much), or his matches in the last 15 years. Bret Hart on the other hand, has had some of the best matches. Bret got the best out of Stone Cold, Shawn Michaels, Davey Boy Smith, Chris Benoit and Owen Hart.

Charisma. Here is a point where Ric Flair does beat Bret Hart. He had more charisma then Bret. But charisma will only get you half way, and when the people want to see a great back and forth match, Bret has you beat.

Tarnishing of Legacy. Is this what happened to Hulk Hogan? He is a legend, but was it tarnished by what he has done after his career. Now we look at the two men we are talking about. Ric Flair and Bret Hart. Bret Hart left the WCW after a horrible injury ended his career. But since then, he has stayed away from the wrestling world, and in doing so, saved a great legacy. Ric Flair did not. He stayed 15 years or so too long, and ruined that legacy with horrible matches.

All in all, I vote for Bret Hart as the greatest Legend of them all. I would rather have Bret in the ring, I would rather have Bret represent my company outside the ring, and I would rather have Bret Hart's legacy to point to when I am talking about my company's legend.

 

[Big Sexy]

He had success, but it was not with the WWE

Actually Ric Flair had a great two year run in the early 90's with the WWE, becoming a two time heavyweight champion.

Ric Flair is often talked about having some of the best matches ever. Whoever was watching those matches either had the real wrestlers name mixed up, or were blind. Ric Flair typically had poor matches.

You are the one who is blind if you think he had horrible matches. Flair's job was always to make young guys look good, and he did that to perfection in his matches. Flair has had amazing matches with Dusty Rhodes, Ricky Steamboat, Sting, Luger, and Harley Race.

Bret got the best out of Stone Cold, Shawn Michaels, Davey Boy Smith, Chris Benoit and Owen Hart.

Bret had great matches with those guys but you can't say he got the best out of them. Those guys were all great performers and have had a lot of great matches without Hart.

He stayed 15 years or so too long, and ruined that legacy with horrible matches.

There's nothing wrong with wanting to keep being involved with the profession you love. And it's not like Flair was wrestling during this whole time. He had a great run with evolution where he rarely wrestled. He was also "part owner" of the WWE for a while. And he was still able to have some more great matches. His match with Taker at Mania 18 was very good.

 

[Mr. TM]

Actually Ric Flair had a great two year run in the early 90's with the WWE, becoming a two time heavyweight champion.

Khali could almost say the same thing.

You are the one who is blind if you think he had horrible matches. Flair's job was always to make young guys look good, and he did that to perfection in his matches. Flair has had amazing matches with Dusty Rhodes, Ricky Steamboat, Sting, Luger, and Harley Race.

...that was always his job? I think usually wrestlers try and make themselves look good as well. Flairs matches do not match up to Harts, no matter how you cute it.

Bret had great matches with those guys but you can't say he got the best out of them. Those guys were all great performers and have had a lot of great matches without Hart.

Stone Cold's best match was with Bret, Owens best match was with Bret, Daveys was with Bret, I would even say Michaels was with Bret.

There's nothing wrong with wanting to keep being involved with the profession you love. And it's not like Flair was wrestling during this whole time. He had a great run with evolution where he rarely wrestled. He was also "part owner" of the WWE for a while. And he was still able to have some more great matches. His match with Taker at Mania 18 was very good.

There is if you ruin chances for other wrestlers going for that spot. It is if you ruin the legacy you have created. He should have always stayed out of the ring. He could have been a great manager for Evolution. Instead he decided to get his saggy body back into the ring to make some money.

 

[Big Sexy]

Khali could almost say the same thing

Khali didn't win a Rumble and main event a Wrestlemania.

that was always his job? I think usually wrestlers try and make themselves look good as well. Flairs matches do not match up to Harts, no matter how you cute it.

For the majority of his career it was. Once he became a heel it was his job to make the young faces look strong against him.

Stone Cold's best match was with Bret, Owens best match was with Bret, Daveys was with Bret, I would even say Michaels was with Bret.

Owen and Bulldog yes, Stone Cold is debatable, and Shawn has had a lot of better matches. And Ric Flair has gotten the best out of guys like Dusty Rhodes, Sting, and Lex Luger.

There is if you ruin chances for other wrestlers going for that spot.

What spot did he have exactly? He wasn't in the main event scene. He wasn't winning Heavyweight titles. Flair has only won a heavyweight title twice since 1994, and his last reign was in 1999. When he was in the WWE he was a lot more helpful then hurtful. Flair helped a lot of young guys like Randy Orton and Batista, who happen to be two of the biggest stars in the WWE today.

 

[Mr. TM]

Khali didn't win a Rumble and main event a Wrestlemania.

I was just using Khali as a cheap example. If we are going by his successfullness during his time in WWE, there are probably 30 or so wrestlers higher up then him.

For the majority of his career it was. Once he became a heel it was his job to make the young faces look strong against him.

Only because for the majority of his career, he was past his prime.

Owen and Bulldog yes, Stone Cold is debatable, and Shawn has had a lot of better matches. And Ric Flair has gotten the best out of guys like Dusty Rhodes, Sting, and Lex Luger.

Dusty yes, Sting and Luger are highly debatable... if Luger ever had a good match for the most part.

What spot did he have exactly? He wasn't in the main event scene. He wasn't winning Heavyweight titles. Flair has only won a heavyweight title twice since 1994, and his last reign was in 1999. When he was in the WWE he was a lot more helpful then hurtful. Flair helped a lot of young guys like Randy Orton and Batista, who happen to be two of the biggest stars in the WWE today.

I was just saying, as a performer, the guy should have stayed out of the ring more often. He was horrid in it. Sure he was trying to put guys over, but at what cost? He could have started in his prime, and topped. If Kennedy beats the hell out of Flair, then that is not a big thing, just another win. Everytime Flair got the win, it hurt a wrestler. My example will be Carlito. He took the IC championship from him, and hurt his career significantly.

 

[Big Sexy]

I was just using Khali as a cheap example. If we are going by his successfullness during his time in WWE, there are probably 30 or so wrestlers higher up then him.

I really don't think there are 30 guys who were able to win a rumble, main event a Wrestlemania, and win the heavyweight title twice in just a year and a half.

Only because for the majority of his career, he was past his prime.

Late in his WCW career and his second run with the WWE he was past his prime. That is hardly the majority of his career. And even when he was past his prime he was still better then a lot of the young guys.

Everytime Flair got the win, it hurt a wrestler. My example will be Carlito. He took the IC championship from him, and hurt his career significantly.

Actually after Flair beat him for the ic title Carlito was propelled to the main event, when he took part in an elimination chamber for the Heavyweight title. In that match Carlito was the last person to be eliminated, so his career was not hurt at all at that point. It was the WWE that ended his push after that, and started putting him against guys like Rob Conway. It was when Carlito teamed with Ric Flair that kept his career from becoming completely irrelevant.

 

[Mr. TM]

I really don't think there are 30 guys who were able to win a rumble, main event a Wrestlemania, and win the heavyweight title twice in just a year and a half.

He did those things because Hogan didn't want to. He was under Hogan all that time. If he can't get over Hogan, then that means Hogan was probably better. Since Bret beat Hogan, then that makes him better than Flair.

Late in his WCW career and his second run with the WWE he was past his prime. That is hardly the majority of his career. And even when he was past his prime he was still better then a lot of the young guys.

How many years did that streak of him being past his prime last? The funny thing is, how does him being just as good as rookies make him the greatest legend in wrestling history?

Actually after Flair beat him for the ic title Carlito was propelled to the main event, when he took part in an elimination chamber for the Heavyweight title. In that match Carlito was the last person to be eliminated, so his career was not hurt at all at that point. It was the WWE that ended his push after that, and started putting him against guys like Rob Conway. It was when Carlito teamed with Ric Flair that kept his career from becoming completely irrelevant.

Carlito was doing fine as the IC champion, and would have made it to the Elimination chamber with or without Ric Flair. The problem is, after the Elimination Chamber, if he still had the IC belt, he could have gone further.

 

[Big Sexy]

He did those things because Hogan didn't want to.

I didn't know you had all of this inside information from the WWE in the early 90's.

Since Bret beat Hogan, then that makes him better than Flair.

Actually Bret isn't better then either.

The funny thing is, how does him being just as good as rookies make him the greatest legend in wrestling history?

Someone in their 50's holding their own with guys in their 20's and 30's is pretty impressive.

Carlito was doing fine as the IC champion, and would have made it to the Elimination chamber with or without Ric Flair. The problem is, after the Elimination Chamber, if he still had the IC belt, he could have gone further.

It's hard to get a main event push when you have a mid card title. Don't blame Flair for Carlito failing at the main event level. Carlito eliminated three guys in the elimination chamber match including Kane and HBK so he was given an opportunity to become more then just a mid card guy. Flair has nothing to do with Carlito not being pushed.

 

[Mr. TM]

I didn't know you had all of this inside information from the WWE in the early 90's.

it is a pretty recognized fact that Hogan controlled his own fate in the WWE in the early 90s.

Actually Bret isn't better then either.

Why is Bret in the finals beating Ric Flair then?

Someone in their 50's holding their own with guys in their 20's and 30's is pretty impressive.

Guys in their 30's that were green. Backland could have done it better even.

It's hard to get a main event push when you have a mid card title. Don't blame Flair for Carlito failing at the main event level. Carlito eliminated three guys in the elimination chamber match including Kane and HBK so he was given an opportunity to become more then just a mid card guy. Flair has nothing to do with Carlito not being pushed.

Maybe you should go watch Wrestlemania 6. Carlito did great at the Elimination Chamber match. I am talking about what happened afterwords, the man was left with nothing. Edge was now the champion, and John Cena faced him. Carlito did not get the chance to go for the title afterwords. Ric Flair got the IC championship from Carlito so he could be a triple crown winner. He did not have to be a triple crown champion, and all it did was hurt Carlito.

 

[Big Sexy]

Why is Bret in the finals beating Ric Flair then?

There's obviously a lot of Canadians on this forum, and most other people don't even care about the tournament, which is why there are only 20 total votes.

Backland could have done it better even.

That's laughable.

Maybe you should go watch Wrestlemania 6

Those are two completely different time periods. The IC title meant a lot more back in the early 90's.

Carlito did not get the chance to go for the title afterwords. Ric Flair got the IC championship from Carlito so he could be a triple crown winner. He did not have to be a triple crown champion, and all it did was hurt Carlito.

If the WWE wanted to push Carlito then they would have given him the title back, but they didn't. They gave it to Shelton Benjamin instead. Maybe it's because they weren't that high on Carlito, I really don't know. But to say it's all Flair's fault that Carlito became a permanent mid-carder is ridiculous.

 

[Mr. TM]

There's obviously a lot of Canadians on this forum, and most other people don't even care about the tournament, which is why there are only 20 total votes.

That is actually kind of racist. Just because someone is Canadian does not mean they would vote for Bret Hart. Look at Mysterio_fan, he is Canadian, and look... He voted for Ric Flair. That is like saying that Ric Flair one, because there are a lot of Americans on the board. There is a lot more Americans than Canadians, so that is a horrible reason. Also, the 20 votes is not anyones fault, if Hogan was a bigger legend... maybe more people would have come out to vote for him. In reality, Bret Hart has created a legacy across the world, so the worldwide vote would be for him.

That's laughable.

I am not going to debate with you if this is your only response. You sir, are a horrid debater.

Those are two completely different time periods. The IC title meant a lot more back in the early 90's.

The WWE title also meant a lot more back then.

If the WWE wanted to push Carlito then they would have given him the title back, but they didn't. They gave it to Shelton Benjamin instead. Maybe it's because they weren't that high on Carlito, I really don't know. But to say it's all Flair's fault that Carlito became a permanent mid-carder is ridiculous.

Sure they could have given it back to him, but then what would have been the reason to give it to Ric in the first place. Answer that question first. Why did Ric Flair get the IC title?

If you really want to persuade me to agree with your points, then actually prove to me how Ric Flair is a bigger Legend. all you have done really is combat points why Bret Hart shouldn't be the biggest Legend. Ric Flair is a Legend, show the world why people think so.

 

[Big Sexy]

Just because someone is Canadian does not mean they would vote for Bret Hart.

Not always, but most of the time it does. That's why when the WWE goes to Canada they boo all the American wrestlers and cheer all of the Canadian wrestlers. The only other reason I can think of is that people who are voting for Bret Hart don't know very much about wrestling.

I am not going to debate with you if this is your only response. You sir, are a horrid debater.

No, you are just making horrible points. I'm not going to debate about Flair being better then Backlund, that is a given.

The WWE title also meant a lot more back then.

How is that relevant? If anything you are just showing how much more impressive Flair's Heavyweight title reigns were in the WWE.

Sure they could have given it back to him, but then what would have been the reason to give it to Ric in the first place. Answer that question first. Why did Ric Flair get the IC title?

Nowadays in the WWE guys who are getting pushed to the main event usually drop the mid card title first. Jericho dropped the ic title before his reign, Jeff Hardy dropped the ic title before he was pushed to the main event. That's the way WWE does it now.

If you really want to persuade me to agree with your points, then actually prove to me how Ric Flair is a bigger Legend. all you have done really is combat points why Bret Hart shouldn't be the biggest Legend. Ric Flair is a Legend, show the world why people think so.

He had 16 world heavyweight title reigns, he carried the NWA/WCW for years. He has helped to make a number of huge stars such as Sting, Steamboat, Orton, and Batista. His influence on the wrestling business is seen on a daily basis in every wrestling promotion. There's a reason the fans say WHOOOOOO every time someone does a chop. He has cut some of the best, most memorable promos in Wrestling history. He was the leader of the greatest faction in wrestling history. Bret Hart, as great as he is, cannot compare to any of that.

 

[Mr. TM]

Not always, but most of the time it does. That's why when the WWE goes to Canada they boo all the American wrestlers and cheer all of the Canadian wrestlers. The only other reason I can think of is that people who are voting for Bret Hart don't know very much about wrestling.

They don't boo all the Americans... They boo Shawn Michaels, and that is because of the Bret Hart Legacy. When they are in Toronto they cheer Edge, because he is from Toronto. Same as when they are in St. Louis, they cheer Randy Orton like a baby face.

No, you are just making horrible points. I'm not going to debate about Flair being better then Backlund, that is a given.

I didn't say that he was better than Flair, I just said that Backalnd could wrestle the young guns into his 50s.

How is that relevant? If anything you are just showing how much more impressive Flair's Heavyweight title reigns were in the WWE.

The WWE title lost steam in the last few years. That means the Ric Flair and Bret Hart both have title reigns that mean a lot. I am not saying that Ric's do not, that is stupid. I am however saying Bret has the best Legacy.

Nowadays in the WWE guys who are getting pushed to the main event usually drop the mid card title first. Jericho dropped the ic title before his reign, Jeff Hardy dropped the ic title before he was pushed to the main event. That's the way WWE does it now.

Jericho and Hardy never should have had the IC title.

He had 16 world heavyweight title reigns, he carried the NWA/WCW for years. He has helped to make a number of huge stars such as Sting, Steamboat, Orton, and Batista. His influence on the wrestling business is seen on a daily basis in every wrestling promotion. There's a reason the fans say WHOOOOOO every time someone does a chop. He has cut some of the best, most memorable promos in Wrestling history. He was the leader of the greatest faction in wrestling history. Bret Hart, as great as he is, cannot compare to any of that.

That is nice, how many of those title reigns were very valuable? He carried the NWA/WCW when it was a show for southerners. Sting made himself big against Hogan. Sting was never as big until then. Orton didn't need Flair, Batista defiantly didn't need Flair. And Steamboat... well Steamboat is Steamboat.

A chop. not much to be proud of.

Now his Promos are good, when he isn't ranting uncontrollably. Lots are better in the industry. The Rock and Chris Jericho from modern times I would rank higher. NWO>4 Horsemen. Bret Hart's legacy is shown across this world, Ric Flairs is shown in the United States.

 

[Big Sexy]

Jericho and Hardy never should have had the IC title.

But they did win it. And then they lost it before going on to win the heavyweight title.

That is nice, how many of those title reigns were very valuable?

Most of them were, but even if only half of them were it would still be better then Bret Hart.

Sting made himself big against Hogan.

Sting was big well before he feuded with Hogan, and his match with Hogan was terrible so that hardly made him.

Orton didn't need Flair, Batista defiantly didn't need Flair

They may not have needed him but he definitely helped them.

NWO>4 Horsemen.

If the NWO would have stayed just Hogan, Hall, Nash, and a couple other guys then maybe, but they didn't. When guys like Scott Norton and Vincent are in your group that takes away a lot of credibility. Not to mention the horrible expansion into the Wolfpac and all of that mess.

Bret Hart's legacy is shown across this world, Ric Flairs is shown in the United States.

That argument has no merit. Ric Flair has won the NWA title in Japan, Singapore, and the Dominican Republic. He is a huge international star, definitely more so then Bret Hart.

 

[Mr. TM]

But they did win it. And then they lost it before going on to win the heavyweight title.

So? How many other main event, MAIN EVENT wrestlers have won the weak tag division titles while being in the main event. This means nothing.

Most of them were, but even if only half of them were it would still be better then Bret Hart.

Except Bret worked for everyone one of his.

Sting was big well before he feuded with Hogan, and his match with Hogan was terrible so that hardly made him.

Two things, are you actually saying that Sting was only big because of Ric Flair. Lets make this a point. Because that is bogus. Second, he wasn't that big of a star until Hogan. The match was horrible, I know that, but I said the feud was great, and no one will argue that it wasn't

They may not have needed him but he definitely helped them.

Fine, they were helped by Flair... Wow, Flair is the greatest legend now. He helped a couple guys out. That also means that Eugene is a Legend then.

If the NWO would have stayed just Hogan, Hall, Nash, and a couple other guys then maybe, but they didn't. When guys like Scott Norton and Vincent are in your group that takes away a lot of credibility. Not to mention the horrible expansion into the Wolfpac and all of that mess.

The concept of the NWO is much stronger than the Four Horsemen. A group that takes over an entire promotion. Better than four bullies.

That argument has no merit. Ric Flair has won the NWA title in Japan, Singapore, and the Dominican Republic. He is a huge international star, definitely more so then Bret Hart.

Bret is Bigger in Japan, he is incredibly massive in India, the future of professional wrestling. He is a legend in Canada, Great Britain, Germany, The Phillippeans, you name it. I am sorry, but I cannot keep this up with you if you are saying unbacked up lies. Like I said, Flair is a legend, I acknowledge that. Show me these points, and quit trying to show why Ric Flair is better at points than he isn't. It is obvious that Hart is the bigger International Star. Bring up something to do with charisma.

 

[Big Sexy]

Except Bret worked for everyone one of his.

And Ric Flair didn't? When guys have won as many titles as Flair and Hart have it's because they earned them. Flair won all of those heavyweight titles because at the time he was the best guy to carry the company. Flair was the one guy that the NWA/WCW knew could carry the company and that's why he was given the title so often. Just like Bret Hart who was given the title because he was the best guy to carry the WWE at the time. Hogan was gone, Savage was gone, Flair was gone, and Hart was really the only logical choice to be champion.

Two things, are you actually saying that Sting was only big because of Ric Flair. Lets make this a point. Because that is bogus. Second, he wasn't that big of a star until Hogan.

First off I'm not saying Flair is the only reason Sting is a big star, I'm saying that Flair was one of the main guys who helped to elevate him to that level. And to say that Sting was not a big star until his feud with Hogan is complete bullshit. His feud with Hogan helped to enhance his new character, but Sting was a big star well before his feud with Hogan was even thought of.

The concept of the NWO is much stronger than the Four Horsemen. A group that takes over an entire promotion. Better than four bullies.

The "concept" was better, but that doesn't mean shit, because the concept ended up failing and driving WCW out of business. And I think it's hilarious how you are calling the four horseman bullies, when the "concept" of the NWO was to bully people around.

Let's review what makes a legend.

Wrestling Ability- To be a great wrestler your matches have to tell a story and be entertaining. There are a lot of great technical wrestlers who no one cares about because they are bland as fuck. I'm not saying Hart is one of them, but when it comes to having entertaining matches that made both competitors look strong, Flair had more of those matches then Hart. That's is not to say that Hart wasn't great at it either, but he was not as good as Ric Flair.

Selling power- It's hard to judge this because they were in two different promotions and the WWE no matter who there champion was, would have bigger audiences overseas then the NWA/WCW. Maybe Hart was more popular overseas, but when it came to the United States the only guy who was known more then Flair is Hogan.

Promos- Flair, once again with the exception of Hogan and probably The Rock, is the most charismatic wrestler in history. The promos that he cut as part of the four horseman will always be remembered as some of the best ever. Bret Hart couldn't even come close to competing with Flair when it came to this.


I really am beginning to think that you have never watched a Flair match from the 80's, because if you had then there would be no argument that Flair is a bigger legend. I don't care how great Hart was, and he was great, there is no logical reasoning that proves he is a bigger legend then Flair. The only thing that I might be willing to give you is that Hart is a bigger international star, but once again a lot more of that has to do with the companies both guys were in during their primes. Everything else you have said has been nonsensical shit that I shouldn't have even acknowledged because of it's stupidity. Anybody with any real wrestling knowledge knows that Flair is a bigger legend then Bret Hart, so obviously you and everyone else who voted for Bret Hart to beat guys like Hogan and Flair know nothing.

 

[agentmichaelscarn]

Anybody with any real wrestling knowledge knows that Flair is a bigger legend then Bret Hart, so obviously you and everyone else who voted for Bret Hart to beat guys like Hogan and Flair know nothing.

Why is that? and where do you get that from? In the ring Bret Hart could wrestle circles around Ric Flair. Bret was a better technician, Bret sold better, Bret executed better, Bret had more variety of moves, and Bret had better psychology. I dont think there was a single thing in a wrestling ring that Flair did better than Hart.

And you cant even compare the popularity of the two men WORLDWIDE. Flair maybe bigger in the states especially now since Bret hasnt wrestled and only made a couple appearances in roughly a decade but worldwide its not even close. Bret Hart is god like in Canada, according to CBC.ca he is the 39th greatest Canadien of all time, thats not just wrestling or athletics thats Canadians period and Canada is a pretty big country. Over in Europe and the middle east he may have been the biggest drawing or most loved wrestler of all time, if not he was certainly up there. Not to mention he is still huge in the U.S. His DVD is the 2nd highest selling wrestling DVD of all time on Amazon, only behind WM22. His book is the top selling wrestling book there as well. And he did this without the WWE pushing either of them down our throats, particularly the book. He didnt make appearances on WWE TV to plug it, people just went out and bought it because they were that big of fan of his.

Now Im not gonna say my opinion is right and anybody that picks Flair is wrong but to say that somebody knows nothing about wrestling cause they think Bret is better than Flair is stupid and clearly not the case.

 

[Big Sexy]

I don't think there was a single thing in a wrestling ring that Flair did better than Hart.

Win matches. Put on entertaining matches. Those are two fairly important things, especially when you are talking about legends. Both guys had a lot of entertaining matches, but Flair had more. Both won a lot of titles, but Flair won more.

Bret Hart is god like in Canada

That's because he is from Canada, and the Canadian fans cheer all the Canadian wrestlers. Bret Hart is the biggest Canadian legend when it comes to wrestling, but as far as overall he is third place at best.

he is the 39th greatest Canadien of all time, thats not just wrestling or athletics thats Canadians period

Ric Flair has one of his robes in the Smithsonian.

And he did this without the WWE pushing either of them down our throats, particularly the book. He didnt make appearances on WWE TV to plug it, people just went out and bought it because they were that big of fan of his.

And the reasons they are big fans of his is because of everything that he accomplished in the WWE. All of the popularity he has is because of his time in the WWE.

to say that somebody knows nothing about wrestling cause they think Bret is better than Flair is stupid and clearly not the case.

Ok, maybe they know some things, but obviously not enough if they think Hart is a bigger legend then Flair

 

[Emmet]

Flair was charasmatic than Bret. Sure, I have no doubt in that. Bret has admitted himself he wasn't the most entertaining of wrestlers. Flair could talk the talk, and he was pretty damn good at it.

When it comes to actual westling, jesus christ its a whitewash. Flair is the biggest routine man ive ever seen. Followed closely nowadays by HHH. Wath a Bret Hart match vs Bam Bam, then watch one vs Owen Hart, completely 2 different styles. If Flair had wrestled these two, you could bet your bottom dollar it would be the exact same style of match (chops, upside down turnbuckle, all the usual Flair shit). Bret is so much better than Flair inside a wrestling ring it isnt even funny.

As for bigger status. Bret is far bigger in mainland Europe, the U.K., Ireland, India, Japan etc. Flair probably has it in USA but thats about it. Bret has easily a more bigger fllowing than Flair does. Easily