Lariat's Shoot Interview Series: Booking the Invasion angle with Vince Russo

It's...Baylariat!

Team Finnley Baylor
Kayfabe Commentaries has a lot of great shoot interview series. One of my favorites is called "Guest Booker". That's when a booker from the past lays out matches and angles during a certain era of pro wrestling. In this review, I'll summarize Vince Russo booking the WCW Invasion after they went out of business. I'll go over the main points Russo touched on and what he would have done.

  1. Russo would have wanted a WCW Tribute Show instead of Shane McMahon showing up on Nitro. He would have had Schiavone simply announce that WCW is closing its doors because the owners of Turner Broadcasting wanted to go in a different direction that doesn't involve professional wrestling. Basically, no mention of the WWE purchasing the product and simply make the final episode of Nitro about WCW, not WWE purchasing the promotion.
  2. Russo would have only had Scott Hall, Kevin Nash and Hulk Hogan for the first few weeks of broadcasts on WWE Raw.
  3. The storyline would start with Scott Hall coming through the crowd as he did on that fateful episode of WCW Nitro. Russo says this is the logical thing to do at this point as it's poetic in that WCW nearly put WWE out of business due to the groundbreaking angle of Hall and Nash invading WCW.
  4. Hall would 'shoot' about his troubles and wanting to get a 'fresh start'. Basically, Hall begs for his job back, which leads Vince McMahon coming to the ring with security not far behind him.
  5. Vince then proceeds to 'shoot' on Hall and bury him for jumping ship and being apart of the most stressful years of his life and being a primary cause of that stress. After Vince is done insulting and burying Hall, Hall then says 'that's all well and good, but I'm coming back. And I'm not coming alone...' Then the show fades to black.
  6. Next week, Nash shows up with Hall, same thing happens, only Vince targets Nash in his 'shoot' and buries Nash for being apart of that group and denying him a job, also.
  7. The next week, Hogan joins the group and the same thing happens, only Hogan's the target instead of Hall and Nash. In this case, Vince goes too far and draws the ire of Hall, Nash, and Hogan who vow to make Vince's life miserable.
  8. After that, a week or two passes, then a WWE main eventer's layed out backstage. Russo says no one sees who it is and he'd prefer the person be Kurt Angle as he was either the WWE champion at the time or considered a major part of the company.
  9. The next week, Russo has Austin attacked in the same fashion, only he's not beaten as badly and now wonders who's behind it. Mind you, Russo wants NO mention of the NWO and wants fans to believe this is simply a WWE storyline and nothing to do with the NWO.
  10. The next week, The Rock is flat on his back in agony after another attack, but now, he rolls over and we see 'NWO' spraypainted on his back. Now we get a clear indicator this is an NWO attack on all the WWE superstars.
  11. The next week on Raw, another familar face comes through the crowd and interrupts Vince during a promo about how he's going to sue and have the NWO arrested if they trespass again. That person's Eric Bischoff, then the show goes to black.
  12. Next week, Bischoff makes his case and Vince gives him 60 days and limited resources to rid the WWE of the NWO. This leads Bischoff to bring in Goldberg, Flair, Sting, and Booker T.
  13. The NWO gets wind of this and 'hacks' the TitanTron to announce that they're going to take out a member of McMahon's family at Summerslam. This ends up being Shane McMahon.
  14. Down the road, Russo says this will lead to a swerve where Bischoff gets Vince to put a stipulation on the line to get the NWO in a match saying that if the NWO loses, they're done and can't come on WWE programming ever again, but if the NWO wins, they'll get contracts to be in the WWE. In this matchup which has the NWO vs Goldberg, Sting, and Booker T with Flair at ringside, NWO wins and Booker T takes the fall.
  15. This leads Vince to take matters into his own hands and have his superstars try to take out the NWO, which then leads to a swerve where the WCW guys turn on Vince and Bischoff, the NWO, Goldberg, Sting, Flair, and Booker are all in on a plot to earn WWE contracts and make life miserable for the WWE superstars.
  16. The conclusion is ultimately the WWE would come out on top and then you'd continue to use certain folks if necessary. This storyline would take a year, according to Russo.

This looks very interesting as it could lead to some great interactions and some great matches down the line. Thing is, Russo mentions this storyline wouldn't be a 'wrestling angle' and he didn't want it to become one until it absolutely had to be. Another interesting tidbit is that after the WWE's done with WCW, we wait a few weeks and who comes through the crowd to interrupt Raw? PAUL ... HEYMAN. Russo says that can be the start of another year-long story arc.

So what are your thoughts on Russo's booking? Would you watch it? Would you do anything different? Still think Russo's the Antichrist of wrestling?
 
Why would Bischoff help out Vince?

I liked the start of it, then it just fell apart. I think the way WWE booked it was very good, except for the lack of WCW star power. That was the only thing that was needed. I also don't feel the whole Alliance thing was necessary. It really should have just been WWF vs. WCW.
 
Russo's version relies on fans choosing to go along with the story being told (refuse to act like the nWo existed) and it also relies on Vince electing to not capitalize on nWo-related merchandise. Neither would actually happen, since in the WWE merchandise sales are a huge factor. It's also based on Vince operating with an open checkbook who bought out Nash, Hall, Hogan, Goldberg, Sting, etc. As we know, this wasn't the case. However, it would have been a cool approach. Definitely more watchable than the original invasion.
 
I've only got one small question in regards to Russo's idea: What about everyone else from WCW, everyone besides the big names? The Morruses, the Awesomes, the Storms, the Natural Born Thrillers, Billy Kidman, etc... Where do they fit in in this year-long storyline?
 
Why would Bischoff help out Vince?

I liked the start of it, then it just fell apart. I think the way WWE booked it was very good, except for the lack of WCW star power. That was the only thing that was needed. I also don't feel the whole Alliance thing was necessary. It really should have just been WWF vs. WCW.

The reason is Bischoff needs work and will do anything to get into the WWE's doors to earn a paycheck. That's what Russo wants to sell, anyway.

Russo's version relies on fans choosing to go along with the story being told (refuse to act like the nWo existed) and it also relies on Vince electing to not capitalize on nWo-related merchandise. Neither would actually happen, since in the WWE merchandise sales are a huge factor. It's also based on Vince operating with an open checkbook who bought out Nash, Hall, Hogan, Goldberg, Sting, etc. As we know, this wasn't the case. However, it would have been a cool approach. Definitely more watchable than the original invasion.

Agreed. It's as if Russo's given second in command to Vince McMahon and is able to make this happen. That's what's fun about these things. Jim Cornette did one, too.

I've only got one small question in regards to Russo's idea: What about everyone else from WCW, everyone besides the big names? The Morruses, the Awesomes, the Storms, the Natural Born Thrillers, Billy Kidman, etc... Where do they fit in in this year-long storyline?

Russo wanted to keep as few of the wrestlers off the roster as possible during that time. The logical thing Russo wanted to accomplish is have Vince not care about most of the WCW's roster. I'm sure some would have been worked in during that time, but the core of this storyline were mainstays in WCW.
 
I don't think it would have worked for several reasons. To begin with, anyone with an internet connection at the time knew that Vince bought WCW. And after the Monday Night Wars, it was expected that the McMahons would end up on WCW tv for the last episode. Vince won the war and that was his celebration. To not have Vince and Shane show up on WCW tv would have been strange.
The NWO concept was broken by that point and I don't think anything would have made it work again. WCW tried to make it work again, and so did WWE but it was something that was cool and hip and worked magic for it's time but by the time of WCW's demise it wasn't cool anymore and never would be again.
Then there is the problem of the WWE Universe. They wanted Hogan back, and if he had shown up he would have been a face. We all saw what happened when the NWO came in against the Rock. Hogan was cheered, and nothing would have changed that. If Hogan showed up now he would be cheered. The fans associate Hogan with WWF/E and it will always be that way and he will always be cheered there.
But let's say it got past all those blocks to Bischoff showing up to "rid" the 'E of the NWO by bringing in a bunch of WCW guys. It would be saying, no one in the 'E, either individually or as a group could stand up to the NWO, a WCW creation, and only WCW guys could do it. It would make the WWE roster look exceptionally weak and Vince would never have that. I think that was a big problem with the real Invasion angle. Vince didn't want the WWE roster to look weak and it caused the WCW guys to look third rate.
Just my opinion though.
 
it's a good idea from Vince Russo, but the issue was/is that almost everyone of the guys mentioned either didnt want to go to WWE at that time due to personal feelings (like Bischoff) or didnt go due to injury or didnt go because of personal feelings AND they had huge contracts and didnt want to take a pay cut so they just took their money. if those issues didnt happen and guys like Hogan, Nash, Hall, Goldberg, Bischoff and others all came to WWE for the Invasion, then i believe the invasion story would've been great.
 
Looking back, I could have booked that angle better; so Russo taking a stab at it WILL look decent.


Now it is all well and good but the one problem I have is with booking Goldberg. You can't make Goldberg just one of the wrestlers. You can't just turn him heel and not have a solid, unique reason for him individually. Booker T, Flair, maybe bring in Steiner and them turning on Vince is good, for Goldberg it has to be a reluctant cause. Goldberg as an unstoppable face was not dead buried just yet.

Remember Randy on Foley's team last year? The reluctant team player, the loner willing to play ball. It has to be like that. Goldberg, if brought in 2001 was money. He could've generated a lot of revenue and turning him into just 'one' of the guys would hamper his appeal greatly.
 
Criticism of the Invasion is one of my single biggest pet peeves. Russo's fantasy booking is what it is: fantasy. Here are just a few factors that Russo and others simply glance over:

1) Contracts. Kevin Nash has spoken at some length about this. Nash, Hogan, Hall, Sting, Flair, Goldberg were signed to personal services contracts with AOL/Time Warner. WWE did not have the option of simply taking these contracts with their purchase of WCW. WWE would have had to get these guys to breach their existing deals and sign WWE deals.

For argument's sake, let's just say each guy was due $2 million from AOL/Time Warner, so in order to get 6, Vince needs $12 million. But that's only to meet their current deal. Why would any of those 6 guys give up $2 million to do nothing, in order to work for $2 million? The point is that Vince would have to guarantee the full amount of their existing deals PLUS a WWE deal commensurate with what each guy believed themselves to be worth.

So now imagine you're a top WWE guy: You see that Vince has signed 6 guys from a company whose ass you've been kicking in the ratings for HUGE guaranteed money PLUS the type of money you're making...or maybe not making if suddenly those guys are working in top spots. Are you not going to knock on Vince's door and demand MORE than what the 6 FAILED WCW guys are getting? And if you don't get it, do you go home or just do everything you can to bury Vince's 6 new golden boys?

People need to understand that if you're Vince, you see what would essentially be signing WCW type contracts as opening Pandora's box to all of WCW's financial problems. The money Vince would be on the hook for would be big money to not only get WCW guys, but to keep his existing guys happy.

2) WCW went out of business. Let's remember that WCW was so valuable that Vince bought them for a song. The WCW brand had been decimated by 2001 and the names on the marquee during WCW's fall are the exact same names that Vince would be spending all that money to sign. Imagine you own WWE, a public company, which means your personal wealth is directly tied to price per share.

Are you really going to splash a ton of money on wrestlers who could not draw only months and years earlier on the promise that rehashing their thoroughly played out WCW characters and stories on WWE TV will show a return on this massive investment? Would you not recall that it was the stagnation of character and story alike that helped make WCW a worthless brand that you paid virtually nothing for? Would you not think that spending your money based on angles that would have been huge 3-4 years earlier, rather than based on what those angles are worth in 2001 might be unwise and the move of a fan, rather than a businessman? What reason would you have to believe that you could ever grow WWE's business to even greater heights (which were at already previously unimaginable levels) and ultimately both recoup the massive investment and make even greater profits?

3) WWE was doing amazing business in 2001. From Rock to Austin to HHH to Foley to Jericho to Taker to The Hardy's to Edge and Christian to The Dudley's, WWE had great wrestlers, great stories, great characters. These guys and other were responsible not just for killing WCW and winning the war, they were responsible for driving WWE business to such earth shattering highs that Wall Street decided they wanted to be in the wrestling business.

Why would Vince really want to take any time or attention away from those who were making him a billionaire in the baseless hope that he could revive guys that were largely killed alongside WCW, especially when those guys were more expensive than the winners he already had?

Imagine if you own Coca Cola and after years of competition, Pepsi is on their last legs. You see they're up for sale but the cost is too high. Then they lose all their distributorships and the sale price plummets to next to nothing. So you buy them...as much to make sure nobody else buys Pepsi and revives them to compete with you (which I believe was Vince's motivation, far more than using WCW or the library).

Now you own Coca Cola and Pepsi. You have every intention of continuing to leave Pepsi, Sierra Mist, Dr. Pepper, and all the other Pepsi soda's on the market, with some increased backing from the Coke team. You call a meeting with your team to come up with a plan moving forward. It's then that your production and marketing department reminds you that even though you now have access to all of Pespi's brand, your resources for making and pushing each soda remains the same. There are still the same amount of facilities, trucks, commercials, print ads, billboards, etc as before.

So with that in mind, do you decide to make and push Pepsi and Coke, Sprite and Sierra Mist, etc equally, ignoring the fact that Coke and Sprite kicked Pepsi and Sierra Mist's ass to the point you got them for nothing...or do decide that you'll only make enough Pepsi and Sierra Mist to meet it current demand in the marketplace, while keeping Coke and Sprite to as close to normal levels at possible and give the Pepsi products a fraction of the push from marketing compared to Coke products?

I'd choose the latter and take a wait and see approach. Maybe my my developers can improve the taste of Pepsi products and maybe marketing can find a way to package Pepsi products better. If they start selling better, then I'd revisit my initial decision. That's pretty much what Vince did.

He wanted to put Nitro on TV and keep WCW separate...like continuing to make Pepsi for Pepsi's existing audience. Then when USA put the kybosh on Nitro, he signed affordable talent and brought them to the WWE production team under the WCW banner...like continuing to tinker with Pepsi behind the scenes to see if you can make it better. The WCW talent that Vince kept past the Invasion angle were those deemed worthy of further investment...like Pepsi after the Coke team made them over.

At the end of the day, if you're going to fantasy book The Invasion, you have to substantively address all these issues and questions. It's not enough to just say "I'd pay whatever it took to get WCW's top guys and I'd tell the WWE guys to shut up and get over it" or "WCW was awesome once and having dream matches against WWE guys would have made a gazillion dollars" or "The WCW guys would have made more money and been bigger stars than the existing WWE guys, so of course I'd give them equal TV time and even in some cases make them look stronger than they guys I had been using to make HUGE money."

In closing, I'd check out Jim Cornette's Guest Booking of the Invasion, as his is completely grounded in business reality. There are still issues with it and it's not awesome...but he understands why WWE couldn't get the top WCW guys, which Russo either doesn't understand or just chooses to ignore for entertainment purposes. I do tend to think the former, as he spends part of this shoot teasing that he has this secret, brilliant plan that would save wrestling...but he'll only share it once somebody pays him. Like they say, once a con man, always a con man...
 
Cornette's angle really seemed grounded to me. He made some sense on things - while other decisions that were made didn't make much sense at all. He books a 16 match WrestleMania card to determine which brand will stand when it's all said and done.

Both viewpoints are interesting, but the point of an Invasion - in my opinion - is to give the fans dream matches such as Sting vs Undertaker, Goldberg vs Austin, Flair vs Hogan, The Outsiders vs DX, etc. And they didn't accomplish that at all.
 
Criticism of the Invasion is one of my single biggest pet peeves. Russo's fantasy booking is what it is: fantasy. Here are just a few factors that Russo and others simply glance over:

1) Contracts. Kevin Nash has spoken at some length about this. Nash, Hogan, Hall, Sting, Flair, Goldberg were signed to personal services contracts with AOL/Time Warner. WWE did not have the option of simply taking these contracts with their purchase of WCW. WWE would have had to get these guys to breach their existing deals and sign WWE deals.

For argument's sake, let's just say each guy was due $2 million from AOL/Time Warner, so in order to get 6, Vince needs $12 million. But that's only to meet their current deal. Why would any of those 6 guys give up $2 million to do nothing, in order to work for $2 million? The point is that Vince would have to guarantee the full amount of their existing deals PLUS a WWE deal commensurate with what each guy believed themselves to be worth.

So now imagine you're a top WWE guy: You see that Vince has signed 6 guys from a company whose ass you've been kicking in the ratings for HUGE guaranteed money PLUS the type of money you're making...or maybe not making if suddenly those guys are working in top spots. Are you not going to knock on Vince's door and demand MORE than what the 6 FAILED WCW guys are getting? And if you don't get it, do you go home or just do everything you can to bury Vince's 6 new golden boys?

People need to understand that if you're Vince, you see what would essentially be signing WCW type contracts as opening Pandora's box to all of WCW's financial problems. The money Vince would be on the hook for would be big money to not only get WCW guys, but to keep his existing guys happy.

2) WCW went out of business. Let's remember that WCW was so valuable that Vince bought them for a song. The WCW brand had been decimated by 2001 and the names on the marquee during WCW's fall are the exact same names that Vince would be spending all that money to sign. Imagine you own WWE, a public company, which means your personal wealth is directly tied to price per share.

Are you really going to splash a ton of money on wrestlers who could not draw only months and years earlier on the promise that rehashing their thoroughly played out WCW characters and stories on WWE TV will show a return on this massive investment? Would you not recall that it was the stagnation of character and story alike that helped make WCW a worthless brand that you paid virtually nothing for? Would you not think that spending your money based on angles that would have been huge 3-4 years earlier, rather than based on what those angles are worth in 2001 might be unwise and the move of a fan, rather than a businessman? What reason would you have to believe that you could ever grow WWE's business to even greater heights (which were at already previously unimaginable levels) and ultimately both recoup the massive investment and make even greater profits?

3) WWE was doing amazing business in 2001. From Rock to Austin to HHH to Foley to Jericho to Taker to The Hardy's to Edge and Christian to The Dudley's, WWE had great wrestlers, great stories, great characters. These guys and other were responsible not just for killing WCW and winning the war, they were responsible for driving WWE business to such earth shattering highs that Wall Street decided they wanted to be in the wrestling business.

Why would Vince really want to take any time or attention away from those who were making him a billionaire in the baseless hope that he could revive guys that were largely killed alongside WCW, especially when those guys were more expensive than the winners he already had?

Imagine if you own Coca Cola and after years of competition, Pepsi is on their last legs. You see they're up for sale but the cost is too high. Then they lose all their distributorships and the sale price plummets to next to nothing. So you buy them...as much to make sure nobody else buys Pepsi and revives them to compete with you (which I believe was Vince's motivation, far more than using WCW or the library).

Now you own Coca Cola and Pepsi. You have every intention of continuing to leave Pepsi, Sierra Mist, Dr. Pepper, and all the other Pepsi soda's on the market, with some increased backing from the Coke team. You call a meeting with your team to come up with a plan moving forward. It's then that your production and marketing department reminds you that even though you now have access to all of Pespi's brand, your resources for making and pushing each soda remains the same. There are still the same amount of facilities, trucks, commercials, print ads, billboards, etc as before.

So with that in mind, do you decide to make and push Pepsi and Coke, Sprite and Sierra Mist, etc equally, ignoring the fact that Coke and Sprite kicked Pepsi and Sierra Mist's ass to the point you got them for nothing...or do decide that you'll only make enough Pepsi and Sierra Mist to meet it current demand in the marketplace, while keeping Coke and Sprite to as close to normal levels at possible and give the Pepsi products a fraction of the push from marketing compared to Coke products?

I'd choose the latter and take a wait and see approach. Maybe my my developers can improve the taste of Pepsi products and maybe marketing can find a way to package Pepsi products better. If they start selling better, then I'd revisit my initial decision. That's pretty much what Vince did.

He wanted to put Nitro on TV and keep WCW separate...like continuing to make Pepsi for Pepsi's existing audience. Then when USA put the kybosh on Nitro, he signed affordable talent and brought them to the WWE production team under the WCW banner...like continuing to tinker with Pepsi behind the scenes to see if you can make it better. The WCW talent that Vince kept past the Invasion angle were those deemed worthy of further investment...like Pepsi after the Coke team made them over.

At the end of the day, if you're going to fantasy book The Invasion, you have to substantively address all these issues and questions. It's not enough to just say "I'd pay whatever it took to get WCW's top guys and I'd tell the WWE guys to shut up and get over it" or "WCW was awesome once and having dream matches against WWE guys would have made a gazillion dollars" or "The WCW guys would have made more money and been bigger stars than the existing WWE guys, so of course I'd give them equal TV time and even in some cases make them look stronger than they guys I had been using to make HUGE money."

In closing, I'd check out Jim Cornette's Guest Booking of the Invasion, as his is completely grounded in business reality. There are still issues with it and it's not awesome...but he understands why WWE couldn't get the top WCW guys, which Russo either doesn't understand or just chooses to ignore for entertainment purposes. I do tend to think the former, as he spends part of this shoot teasing that he has this secret, brilliant plan that would save wrestling...but he'll only share it once somebody pays him. Like they say, once a con man, always a con man...


Ye but the problem is, it wasn't just WCW, there was ECW there too and it was played off as the guys who wanted to kill WWF. Flair was on board, but not used until after SSeries 2001. If you look at the Alliance team from SS, it was stupid. Now from the AOL contracts if you get just 2 guys, Sting and Goldberg than that is feasible and the boys would get it as well. Sting has always been respected by his peers, and Goldberg was still minting back then. Couple them with the ECW guys like RVD and Taz( who SHOULD have been there), along with Booker T and Flair. You have a solid-ass team, and you know what, I would have them win at Survivor Series

That would give the Invasion legs like never before. Would WWF have come out on top eventually? Sure, but at Mania X8. By Feb 2002 the nWo is free from their AOL contacts and then you get them involved when the Alliance maybe getting their ass kicked by the WWF...and you STILL get Hogan vs Rock at Mania.
 
The most disappointed I've ever been when it comes to the WWE is how badly they messed up the Invasion angle. I even debate whether it should have been done in the first place if the best they could do was what we ended up with.

It was feasible to bring over guys like Sting, Flair, Luger, and some known WCW faces to help make the Invasion seem legit. It was just not done very well and seemed as if it needed to be something that was swept under a rug as opposed to building to something epic.
 
Criticism of the Invasion is one of my single biggest pet peeves.

Why would it be!? The 'Invasion' angle is widely recognized as the most screwed up angle of all time.
Vinnie Mac squandered millions of dollars and the opportunity to book the most exciting and lucrative Wrestling angle of all time.

The fact that you fail to see this and become offended when the 'Invasion' is put under the microscope for what it really was, shows you haven't been watching Wrestling all that long and certainly not during Dubya-See-Dubya's heyday.

The solid fact remains, Vince and Kevin Dunn's insecurities and ego's got in the way of Pro Wrestling's version of Utopia!
As a then 15 year old in 2001, I was almost literally salivating at the mouth at the seemingly endless possibilities and opportunities the WWF buyout of WCW offered.

To this day, as a Wrestling fan of more than twenty-four years, I will never fully understand just how Vinnie Mac and Co. allowed themselves to systematically destroy what should have been the hottest angle of all time.

Russo's fantasy booking is what it is: fantasy.

Precisely, and Vinnie Ru alludes to this several times throughout the feature.

Here are just a few factors that Russo and others simply glance over:

1) Contracts. Kevin Nash has spoken at some length about this. Nash, Hogan, Hall, Sting, Flair, Goldberg were signed to personal services contracts with AOL/Time Warner. WWE did not have the option of simply taking these contracts with their purchase of WCW. WWE would have had to get these guys to breach their existing deals and sign WWE deals.

This is true to a certain extent, However headliner's such as Nash, Flair, Sting etc...were all offered roughly 50 cents in the dollar on the remaining value of their Time Warner contracts.

Obviously, most of the big WCW players chose to sit home and collect on their Time Warner deals and then open negotiations with WWFE once every last cent was deposited into their bulging accounts. Fair enough.

However, there was no legal clause at any stage that prevented any WCW star from negotiating with the WWF post March 2001.
In fact, Time Warner would have been thrilled for more to accept early buyouts from their deals for glaringly obvious reasons.

For argument's sake, let's just say each guy was due $2 million from AOL/Time Warner, so in order to get 6, Vince needs $12 million. But that's only to meet their current deal. Why would any of those 6 guys give up $2 million to do nothing, in order to work for $2 million? The point is that Vince would have to guarantee the full amount of their existing deals PLUS a WWE deal commensurate with what each guy believed themselves to be worth.

One of the most consistent and believable rumors of that time of why Vince didn't pull the trigger on signing the Goldberg's, Nash's and Steiner's etc. initially was due to the likely uproar from his existing talent pissing and moaning over pay.

At that time, Goldberg, Nash, Sting and so on would have been worth EVERY penny you paid them in 2001. For starters, at that time, Goldberg would have paid for his contract in full and then some after just one PPV appearance!

However, it's worth noting when Goldie, Nash, Hall etc. all did eventually sign with the 'E, they all accepted huge pay cuts from what they'd become accustomed to in WCW.
Nash for instance, by the time WCW folded, was on roughly US$1.625 Million per annum guaranteed.
When He signed with the WWF in November 2001, it was for US$750 000 guaranteed.
Bottom line is, at the time of the 'Invasion', the WWF was drawing very regular sell-outs wherever they went and the Nielsen's were still strong. He could have afforded them all no problem.

So now imagine you're a top WWE guy: You see that Vince has signed 6 guys from a company whose ass you've been kicking in the ratings for HUGE guaranteed money PLUS the type of money you're making...or maybe not making if suddenly those guys are working in top spots. Are you not going to knock on Vince's door and demand MORE than what the 6 FAILED WCW guys are getting? And if you don't get it, do you go home or just do everything you can to bury Vince's 6 new golden boys?

This is a valid point. But in my opinion, the fault would lie with Vince and his lieutenants.
There has always been an unwritten rule, especially in the WWF/E, that if a Wrestler has a big money contract, He should be pushed to the moon whether or not He could draw or perform at that high level (I.E. Kevin Nash circa. 2003)

Having said that, business is business and eventually, all would have gotten with the program.

People need to understand that if you're Vince, you see what would essentially be signing WCW type contracts as opening Pandora's box to all of WCW's financial problems. The money Vince would be on the hook for would be big money to not only get WCW guys, but to keep his existing guys happy.

Not really...

WCW's financial problems ran far deeper than just bloated contracts.

Flying in over two hundred guys each week for TV, Creative control given to most of the headline crew and the nonchalant attitude WCW executives clearly espoused when the product took the u-turn into the shitter in the spring of '99 to name but a few.

As stated above, the WWF/E coffers were overflowing with cash at that time, and knowing the figures that guys such as Goldie and Nash did eventually sign on the dotted line for, shows the financial strain to be almost non-existent.

Also, it's worth noting that when Vince did finally get the signatures He wanted, He not only signed them a year or more too late, But also booked ALL of them so damn poorly that those discounted deals did become a liability in the end. Totally avoidable in my opinion.

2) WCW went out of business.

Well...technically...no it didn't. It was heading that way though.

In actuality, Time Warner/AOL suit Jamie Kellner is the one man who "killed" WCW.
By removing it's product from the Turner owned stations after the merger with AOL.
It's also worth mentioning, that even when WCW was the number one Wrestling Promotion in the entire world (1997) and was making pots of dough, it was still the black sheep of the Turner family in the view of many Turner bigwigs.

Also, the then impending sale of the company in January 2001 to Eric Bischoff and his associates from Fusient Media Ventures filled many with a glimmer of hope at the time. That is, until Kellner's announcement put that plan to rest.

Let's remember that WCW was so valuable that Vince bought them for a song. The WCW brand had been decimated by 2001 and the names on the marquee during WCW's fall are the exact same names that Vince would be spending all that money to sign. Imagine you own WWE, a public company, which means your personal wealth is directly tied to price per share.

Vince and the WWFE purchased WCW, the contracts of 24 under card performers and the WCW videotape library for a paltry US$2.2 Million plus fees and legal costs.

Whereas, just over one year earlier, WCW had been valued at US$350-$400 Million. The loss of TV (Kellner) hurt WCW's asking price dramatically.
But I'll also concede that yes, WCW through it's mistakes, devalued itself a great deal too.

Are you really going to splash a ton of money on wrestlers who could not draw only months and years earlier on the promise that rehashing their thoroughly played out WCW characters and stories on WWE TV will show a return on this massive investment?

Well, erm...yes. The allure of a legit WCW vs WWF feud at that point in history was astronomical!

With the assistance of WCW's tape library the angle could have been huge!
Remember, Nitro as it was approaching some of it's lowest numbers in the Nielsen's, still had as many North American viewers as WWE receives Today!

The total combined audiences for WCW and the WWF as well as the actual dream matches that such a feud had the potential to yield could have and would have been enormously successful.

To state that it wouldn't, or to even have concerns that if booked correctly that it couldn't deliver, sound very much like the ramblings of a WWE spoon-fed mark who has acquired any Wrestling knowledge directly from biased WWE DVD/Book releases.

Would you not recall that it was the stagnation of character and story alike that helped make WCW a worthless brand that you paid virtually nothing for? Would you not think that spending your money based on angles that would have been huge 3-4 years earlier, rather than based on what those angles are worth in 2001 might be unwise and the move of a fan, rather than a businessman? What reason would you have to believe that you could ever grow WWE's business to even greater heights (which were at already previously unimaginable levels) and ultimately both recoup the massive investment and make even greater profits?

Once again, the fall from grace that many WCW stars suffered during it's fairly rapid decline are in no way indicative of person A or person B's ability to draw if handled correctly.

WCW's headline crew (who spent much of WCW's final year in business inactive anyway) still had huge name value in 2001.

Especially in dream scenarios opposing the WWF's elite.


3) WWE was doing amazing business in 2001. From Rock to Austin to HHH to Foley to Jericho to Taker to The Hardy's to Edge and Christian to The Dudley's, WWE had great wrestlers, great stories, great characters. These guys and other were responsible not just for killing WCW and winning the war, they were responsible for driving WWE business to such earth shattering highs that Wall Street decided they wanted to be in the wrestling business.

Why would Vince really want to take any time or attention away from those who were making him a billionaire in the baseless hope that he could revive guys that were largely killed alongside WCW, especially when those guys were more expensive than the winners he already had?

Yet again, true to an extent. Sure, the WWF was doing incredible business into the early part of 2001.

But by April 2001, ratings began to crash and the WWF/E entered a decline in business in which it never recovered and is literally still ongoing Today.

The matches and feuds which felt fresh and new in 2000 started turning sour in 2001. Jericho and Benoit clashed over and over...Austin and 'Taker resumed their done to death feud in April/May 2001.

The Dudley's, Hardy's and E&C rivalry had run it's course by mid-2001 and new and fresh concepts, along with new and fresh matches seemed in short supply in 2001.

The numbers reflect that.

I can see though, if someone wasn't watching the product back then, when viewed Today against the utter disgrace that is WWE TV in 2013, I can see how someone can be of the opinion that 2001 was great year....when it wasn't.

The WWF and Vinnie Mac rode that wave of fan goodwill and popularity for just over a year after Vinnie Ru bailed.

Imagine if you own Coca Cola and after years of competition, Pepsi is on their last legs. You see they're up for sale but the cost is too high. Then they lose all their distributorships and the sale price plummets to next to nothing. So you buy them...as much to make sure nobody else buys Pepsi and revives them to compete with you (which I believe was Vince's motivation, far more than using WCW or the library).

Now you own Coca Cola and Pepsi. You have every intention of continuing to leave Pepsi, Sierra Mist, Dr. Pepper, and all the other Pepsi soda's on the market, with some increased backing from the Coke team. You call a meeting with your team to come up with a plan moving forward. It's then that your production and marketing department reminds you that even though you now have access to all of Pespi's brand, your resources for making and pushing each soda remains the same. There are still the same amount of facilities, trucks, commercials, print ads, billboards, etc as before.

So with that in mind, do you decide to make and push Pepsi and Coke, Sprite and Sierra Mist, etc equally, ignoring the fact that Coke and Sprite kicked Pepsi and Sierra Mist's ass to the point you got them for nothing...or do decide that you'll only make enough Pepsi and Sierra Mist to meet it current demand in the marketplace, while keeping Coke and Sprite to as close to normal levels at possible and give the Pepsi products a fraction of the push from marketing compared to Coke products?

I'd choose the latter and take a wait and see approach. Maybe my my developers can improve the taste of Pepsi products and maybe marketing can find a way to package Pepsi products better. If they start selling better, then I'd revisit my initial decision. That's pretty much what Vince did.

Decent analogy used to get across the point you're trying to make. To cut a long story short, Vince didn't do a damn thing to help WCW reclaim any past glory. Just about every initial WCW signing in early 2001 were booked into oblivion and needlessly squashed.

Underwear-taker's then-Wife Sara Calloway pinned DDP on Raw, also let's not forget how Page was brought in, stalking Sara who resembled a toad when one glance at Page's then Wife Kimberly shows it just didn't add up.
It was stupid.

Guys who were stars in WCW became almost unrecognizable from their prior selves.
With intro themes altered and/or changed entirely, to being given characters and angles that were destined to fail.
Few were given any real chance.

He wanted to put Nitro on TV and keep WCW separate...like continuing to make Pepsi for Pepsi's existing audience. Then when USA put the kybosh on Nitro, he signed affordable talent and brought them to the WWE production team under the WCW banner...like continuing to tinker with Pepsi behind the scenes to see if you can make it better. The WCW talent that Vince kept past the Invasion angle were those deemed worthy of further investment...like Pepsi after the Coke team made them over.

I believe the original plan was to start shooting WCW TV within weeks of the buyout. The first WCW taping was set for June 9th, 2001 in Fairfax, Virginia.

The reason this never happened had nothing to do with the USA network...To put it simply, the frosty reception WWF fans greeted Booker T and Buff Bagwell with on the July 2nd, 2001 Raw broadcast was the catalyst for McMahon and Dunn to pull the plug on the proposed WCW re-launch.

Even if McMahon had stuck with that plan and kept WCW and the WWF separate, which would have required patience...He could have promoted a once a year extravaganza with WCW facing off against the WWF.

However, the post Vince Russo WWF I feel wouldn't have been able to make even that work in all likelihood.

At the end of the day, if you're going to fantasy book The Invasion, you have to substantively address all these issues and questions. It's not enough to just say "I'd pay whatever it took to get WCW's top guys and I'd tell the WWE guys to shut up and get over it" or "WCW was awesome once and having dream matches against WWE guys would have made a gazillion dollars" or "The WCW guys would have made more money and been bigger stars than the existing WWE guys, so of course I'd give them equal TV time and even in some cases make them look stronger than they guys I had been using to make HUGE money."

The fact is, a proper WCW vs WWF feud and all the dream bouts that spawn out out of it WOULD have "drawn a gazillion" dollars! For years and years, fans clamored for an interpromotional in-ring war between the two sides.

Knowing, in the back of your mind it just wasn't possible. Then, all of a sudden, here we are...the potential for the greatest angle in all of Wrestling history is handed to Vinnie Mac on a silver platter! Wrestling fans dreams were about to become a reality! But...we all know how it turned out.


In closing, I'd check out Jim Cornette's Guest Booking of the Invasion, as his is completely grounded in business reality. There are still issues with it and it's not awesome...but he understands why WWE couldn't get the top WCW guys, which Russo either doesn't understand or just chooses to ignore for entertainment purposes. I do tend to think the former, as he spends part of this shoot teasing that he has this secret, brilliant plan that would save wrestling...but he'll only share it once somebody pays him. Like they say, once a con man, always a con man...

Ugh...James. E. Cornette.

The man who is heralded by fellow hillbillies as some kind of Creative Genius. Let's look at the facts here:

Jim's baby, Smokey Mountain Wrestling...In it's entire existence never drew a dime. Even with a working agreement with the WWF, which made Cornette then envy of nearly every Wrestling promoter at the time. He still couldn't draw flies to a shit factory.

An agreement which saw mega stars such as 'Taker and 'HBK' appear on SMW events to little or no reward for fans and may as well have never happened.

Jim Cornette is the master of self-promotion and isn't nearly as great as he thinks he is.
Any Promoter that has been silly enough to give him the pencil has paid dearly for it. With the most recent example being the long-suffering executives at ROH/Sinclair Broadcasting Group and everything Corny put them through.

I will admit to enjoying Corny's on-screen work in the WWF over the years. He was gold alongside Yoko and Fuji and Owen and the Bulldog. Also, the angles he worked opposite Shawn Michaels and Jose Lothario in '96 were entertaining too.

When it comes to creative though...Cornette is just awful. He has always been jealous of Russo for overshadowing him in creative meetings in '96 and going on to reinvent the entire business with his 'Attitude' campaign and taking the WWF to previously unimaginable heights.

Corny has no such glowing references on his Curriculum Vitae. Just failed stints booking in WCW, SMW, the WWF and finally ROH.
 
Here are just a few factors that Russo and others simply glance over:
1) Contracts. Kevin Nash has spoken at some length about this. Nash, Hogan, Hall, Sting, Flair, Goldberg were signed to personal services contracts with AOL/Time Warner. WWE did not have the option of simply taking these contracts with their purchase of WCW. WWE would have had to get these guys to breach their existing deals and sign WWE deals. Why would any of those 6 guys give up $2 million to do nothing, in order to work for $2 million?
uh, this factor i dont think anyone glanced over. they likely are like me and said if these guys had buyouts or if WWE had buyouts (which they wouldnt for the BIG stars). and why would any of those guys give up 2 million to do nothing...well ask J.R. why he took less money to work with WWF than get paid doing nothing from WCW. honestly, they could've joined in if healthy and if they wanted too, all they had to do was do some deal with Time Warner. Sting was even offered a contract to WWF (reportedly) and he turned them down, but he turned them down out of fear about what Vince would do to the Sting character.
2) WCW went out of business. Let's remember that WCW was so valuable that Vince bought them for a song.
WCW was sold cheaply because it wasnt worth anything after they had NO TV Time. that's why Bischoff's people backed out of the deal. WCW was only worth money if they had a TV Deal and when Jamie said, no TV Time for Nitro on TNT, Bischoff's people backed out and Vince bought it for very cheap.
 
I do like what Vince Russo for here. I think if Vince McMahon had less of an ego and more time to think about it, a combination of what happened and what could have happen would have been perfect. In a dream world, I think Vince should have went all out and brought everyone in. I’m talking about Eric Bischoff, Vince Russo, Paul Heyman (who was brought in), Jim Cornette, and any one I may have missed. McMahon’s version lasted for about 5 months, Russo was going for 2 years, but I say this storyline could still be running today. If the IWC today makes up the “10%”, then the IWC back in 2001 had to have made up only “2%”. Who cares if people knew WWF bought WCW and financially backed ECW?? The “90%”, or in this case, the “98%” wouldn’t give a $#!+ anyway, and with the “Four Horsemen” (Bischoff, Russo, Heyman, and Cornette) doing the writing / booking, of course, with McMahons’s final say, and pretty much every Wrestler at their disposal, I think we would have seen something special. Oh well!!
 
I think they could've made the Invasion angle work by going to just two or three guys, and they wouldn't have been Hogan, Nash or Hall. The nWo idea was bankrupt by that point, and Russo's idea showcases his one-track thinking. Booker T was the lynchpin of the Invasion for the WCW side, but was booked weak, and required the addition of Steve Austin to make the angle work at all. If the entire angle had been booked around a core of Sting, Flair, Goldberg and Booker, the dynamic changes entirely.
 
I saw this just because I wanted to compare it to Cornette's Guest Booker of the same topic. The fact that he kept stressing that this shouldn't be a wrestling angle turned me off. I didn't like it. Bischoff siding with Vince against the NWO is almost(if not more) lame than them hugging when Bischoff debuted for real.

Russo does say something at the end of the Guest Booker that I really agree with and I'm sure you guys will too. With the way wrestling is structured today, the people that run the big wrestling companies have turned something that's so simple and made it so hard. Nowadays there is so many people on a writing team that you have to go through so many layers to get an idea across. In the late 90s only 3 people were writing wwe so it was simpler to get ideas to go through. Now so many different people on the wwe creative team of sitcom writers have different opinions and it's just a mess.
 
it's a good idea from Vince Russo, but the issue was/is that almost everyone of the guys mentioned either didnt want to go to WWE at that time due to personal feelings (like Bischoff) or didnt go due to injury or didnt go because of personal feelings AND they had huge contracts and didnt want to take a pay cut so they just took their money. if those issues didnt happen and guys like Hogan, Nash, Hall, Goldberg, Bischoff and others all came to WWE for the Invasion, then i believe the invasion story would've been great.

This right here. For Russo's idea to work we would have to assume that all of that talent was available, and it has been discussed over and over and over and over that the talent was just not available for Vince to use. The had huge contracts and chose to sit at home and collect them. Anyone would have done the same exact thing. I actually like Russo's idea, but for him to say that is how he would have done it just doesn't work out due to contracts. I didn't hate the Invasion angle as much as most, and of course it could have been done better, but I think Vince did it ok with what he had. Let's face it he was never going to make WCW look any better than he did due to his ego.
 

Users who are viewing this thread

Members online

No members online now.

Forum statistics

Threads
174,842
Messages
3,300,779
Members
21,726
Latest member
chrisxenforo
Back
Top