Lack of stars or jobbers the problem?

[Straightfromthehart]

When exactly did jobbers disappear from wwe?

During the eighties and early 90s they were many, they really did have an important role, to build the reputation of the legit "stars" and get them winning run so to speak, this would build the reputation of the wrestlers and create the stars, it also made ppv matches much more significant and important as this is when we would see the genuine big matches between the stars.

It's different now. There seems a trend of part time jobber part time star. They try to build a new name, when they dont get over as they would have wished the then become a jobber. There are so many who one month get a push the next they job. Rite now look at the likes of kofi Kingston, jack swagger, Cody Rhodes, dolph ziggler, I feel for these guys because it seems to me wwe have no idea what they want to do with them. They get an angle one month and the next they job. These guys are guys they promote to an extent and then give up on and have them there just to put other guys over. I'll give an example which I think is inevitable, Rusev...rite now the guy is getting the big "super power" push, he is "crushing" his opponents, the likes of Kingston, r truth, Ryder and big e, but mark my word in 6 months time he'll be having back and forth matches with the likes of kofi, and he'll end up putting over the cenas, Bryan's and ortons of this world on a weekly basis. There seems to be no real long term planning to build guys.

There are a few obvious exceptions in the likes of bray wyatt (best character in the company at the moment), the shield and cesaro. Apart from these guys the quality in numbers is lacking.

The product is poor at the moment, really poor. And I feel this is mainly down to lack of star power, is this down to actual lack of stars? Or failure to build more? And could the return of old school no entrance no theme lose every match jobbers help to build more future stars and get more guys up onto the top of the ladder?

 

[whoopin' ass]

I don't think it is the lack of jobbers, it is the lack of good writing. One problem with jobbers is that they are usually nobodies. Would you care if Cena put his title on the line every week but it was against Santino and Slater? In any match, you need to think that either person could win otherwise what's the point? There is no problem with using guys like Kofi and Ziggler as jobbers for main eventers as long as those guys get pushed later. But wwe has created a problem - they have brought in guys like Sheamus and instead of having them work up the ladder, they have quick pushed them to the main event. They have jumped over people that should have been pushed which creates all kinds of problems.

There is nothing wrong with hotshotting someone if they click with the audience but wwe seems to do this too often with guys who don't deserve it. They need to build guys up like they did Edge and that will fix a lot of the problems.

 

[Stingersplash89]

The job guys went away in the Monday night war era because people wanted to see competitive matches instead of just squashes. There's pros and cons to both sides of the coin but I prefer to not have the squash matches around

 

[Slash-LN]

It fell out during the Monday night wars.
When the two companies were in battle with each other they started airing match ups that you would normally only see on pay per view so you would be more likely to watch their show instead of the other show. I may be wrong but I believe WCW started doing it first then WWF followed suit.

Now with having shows like Main Event and Superstars WWE can pretty much showcase wrestlers that would normally be jobbers on Raw and Smackdown and they can continue to use more well known wrestlers on Raw and Smackdown to make the shows more interesting.

 

[Softcore Holly]

Eh, it's kinda weird now that I think about it. On the one hand nothing changes the channel faster for me than seeing some nameless dude I've never heard of and will never see again. On the other, it's does really suck seeing so many full-time guys job so much that you know the outcome of the match the second you hear their music. Personally I think there needs to be a better balance for the mid-carders since as mentioned in the OP, most of the time you're either a future hopeful star or a jobber, with a few rare exceptions in between. There will always be jobbers of course but they don't need to turn so much of the roster into them.

As for stars, they feel like they're low since they still rely heavily on guys that's been on top for many years like Cena, Orton and HHH, along with part timers like Brock/Rock for the events. But they are pushing the younger guys like the former Shield members, Bray, Cesaro, so there's hope for the future there. Add in a returning DB when he recovers, hopefully BNB can regain his momentum when he recovers too, a Sheamus heel turn/push, possibly push some of the other mid-card guys and they'll have a good number of stars.

 

[Creepy Old Man]

In WWE you're either John Cena, a main-eventer (far below being Cena, see: Orton, Sheamus, Punk etc. barely headlining as as champion), or nothing.

 

[theblasterkid]

This reminds me of an article saying that Scott Hall said the WWE needs more jobbers. It seems that a lot of their talent (Kofi, Sandow, Santino, Ziggler, etc.,) have become jobbers because they are good in-ring workers. The IC championship needs to be that stepping stone once again. And they should replace Survivor Series with King of the Ring and have the winner face the WWE Champion at Royal Rumble (my opinion).

 

[Catacomb]

I don't think it is the lack of jobbers, it is the lack of good writing. One problem with jobbers is that they are usually nobodies. Would you care if Cena put his title on the line every week but it was against Santino and Slater? In any match, you need to think that either person could win otherwise what's the point? There is no problem with using guys like Kofi and Ziggler as jobbers for main eventers as long as those guys get pushed later. But wwe has created a problem - they have brought in guys like Sheamus and instead of having them work up the ladder, they have quick pushed them to the main event. They have jumped over people that should have been pushed which creates all kinds of problems.

There is nothing wrong with hotshotting someone if they click with the audience but wwe seems to do this too often with guys who don't deserve it. They need to build guys up like they did Edge and that will fix a lot of the problems.

that was exactly the point of jobbers. if the job guys were still around you may not think heath slater could beat cena, but youd think hed have a chance in an ic or us title match.
wwe still has jobbers today, just its more the 1995 jobbers with a gimmick (the goon, etc) and not the 1990 no name job guys.
in my opinion used sparingly no name local indy job guys could help build a star, get his gimmick and moves over, like how wwe built ryback

 

[Trill Co$by]

Sean Waltman... Colin Delaney... Evan Bourne....

I could list more and more, but for now those names will do. Why? Because when they first burst onto the WWE screens, people didn't know who they were. Hell, Sean Waltman had a different name every time he wrestled. But believe it or not, people got behind these guys. Why? Because they were underdogs. They were guys that you KNEW would lose the match, but still you watched in hopes that one day they would get their victory.

Does anyone here remember when 1 2 3 Kid shocked the world and pinned the (I think) unbeaten Razor Ramone? Or when Colin Delaney got his first win over Armando Estrada to keep his job in ECW? Or when Mick Foley won the WWF World Heavyweight Championship from The Rock? These are moments people remember, and why do they remember them? It's not because they were some mid-card guys who got pushed the next night. It's because they were nobodies, the hopeless, who were able to get that one quick win and then sore on to new heights. Hell, 1 2 3 Kid would go on to become the Second in Command for DX 2.0.

Hell, when two-thirds of 3MB were released; people instantly began wondering if that meant Slater was going to be pushed. Why? Because we love seeing jobbers get something going. I don't think WWE should have a lot of jobbers, by any means... but I think that if they properly booked these jobbers then they could become something big.

Plus, it was a nice way of saying "Hey kid, you finally made it through the hardships, now get ready for the big reward." Kind of like earning your keep.

 

[bioshock]

Since wrestling is owned by WWE on Mondays, they should bring back the jobbers. If anything they made a huge star out of a jobber > 1..2..3 Kid. Plus if you watch those squash matches from Raw in 1993 they really made the heels like impressive. Watch some of those Head Shrinkers tag matches from around June to August 1993, very brutal against jobbers, it really put them over. WWE could use that on a regular basis.

I mean imagine jobber tag teams so teams like Ryback & Axle could get impressive quick wins every week on Raw, ones like Ryback had when he first came on the scene. Or jobbers that can put Ziggler over allowing him to do more offensive than just be on the defensive and losing to guys like Del Rio. Or a jobber to guys like Kofi are winning matches.

Builds up the idea of watching a PPV with stars vs stars, and the idea of watching guys who haven't wrestled on Raw already or guys who are both on winning streaks. Of course they still mix in regular matches on Raw like we see now, just not as many.

 

[mmmmbeer]

Sean Waltman... Colin Delaney... Evan Bourne....

I could list more and more, but for now those names will do. Why? Because when they first burst onto the WWE screens, people didn't know who they were. Hell, Sean Waltman had a different name every time he wrestled. But believe it or not, people got behind these guys. Why? Because they were underdogs. They were guys that you KNEW would lose the match, but still you watched in hopes that one day they would get their victory.

Does anyone here remember when 1 2 3 Kid shocked the world and pinned the (I think) unbeaten Razor Ramone? Or when Colin Delaney got his first win over Armando Estrada to keep his job in ECW? Or when Mick Foley won the WWF World Heavyweight Championship from The Rock? These are moments people remember, and why do they remember them? It's not because they were some mid-card guys who got pushed the next night. It's because they were nobodies, the hopeless, who were able to get that one quick win and then sore on to new heights. Hell, 1 2 3 Kid would go on to become the Second in Command for DX 2.0.

Hell, when two-thirds of 3MB were released; people instantly began wondering if that meant Slater was going to be pushed. Why? Because we love seeing jobbers get something going. I don't think WWE should have a lot of jobbers, by any means... but I think that if they properly booked these jobbers then they could become something big.

Plus, it was a nice way of saying "Hey kid, you finally made it through the hardships, now get ready for the big reward." Kind of like earning your keep.

Exactly this...

I think this goes a bit to the writing issue. I recall a while back when there were a handful of 'jobber goes unexpectedly over' moments that were angles in themselves. If you do this once in a while without signposting it, it makes the 'jobber' matches a bit more watchable. Not sure everyone feels this way, but WWE has been extremely formulaic.

One other point, is that if a large amount of the roster (Sandow, Ziggler, Kofi) weren't jobbing, they wouldn't be in WWE, because there isn't enough airtime or interest to build everyone. Not sure if it is good or bad, but from WWE's perspective it keeps guys who might do very well outside of WWE similar to Christian (e.g. Ziggler) out ofthe hands of other promotions.

 

[theblasterkid]

Since wrestling is owned by WWE on Mondays, they should bring back the jobbers. If anything they made a huge star out of a jobber > 1..2..3 Kid. Plus if you watch those squash matches from Raw in 1993 they really made the heels like impressive. Watch some of those Head Shrinkers tag matches from around June to August 1993, very brutal against jobbers, it really put them over. WWE could use that on a regular basis.

I mean imagine jobber tag teams so teams like Ryback & Axle could get impressive quick wins every week on Raw, ones like Ryback had when he first came on the scene. Or jobbers that can put Ziggler over allowing him to do more offensive than just be on the defensive and losing to guys like Del Rio. Or a jobber to guys like Kofi are winning matches.

Builds up the idea of watching a PPV with stars vs stars, and the idea of watching guys who haven't wrestled on Raw already or guys who are both on winning streaks. Of course they still mix in regular matches on Raw like we see now, just not as many.

Yeah, it makes them look strong when they give them a push. Instead of using guys like Ryder (who they could repackage). Interesting enough though, NXT has some.

 

[Mudlup50]

I definitely think the problem is not enough jobbers! You hear Kofi's music you know he's gonna lose. Think about the MitB match, we could predict that it pretty much had to be a Shield guy to win because mostly everybody else was a jobber!

And my guess as to when it happened would be about 2007. When WCW and ECW ended you had an influx of talent and guys who WWE wanted to put over or make jobbers. 2006 you had guys like Santino and the Spirit Squad members who alone would lose a match.

Nowadays basically the jobbers are the guys who could be main eventing or at the very least midcarders. As people have mentioned it's basically, push or you're a jobber at this point. Unless you have a storyline you're a jobber. Perfect example, the Rhodes brothers! When they had no story, they lost week in and out. Now that they're building to a match between them, they're winning matches against Rybaxel who should be getting built up as a tag team! ><

Also it does come down to writing also, being as I don't think it's that impressive when you're a Randy Orton level character and you beat Kofi Kingston..or Evan Bourne, it just seems boring. Maybe they sneak a win but that means it's because a storyline is in effect.

 

[MrMojoRisin]

Jobbers create winners. Winners become stars.

The lack of jobbers in my mind absolutely makes it harder to create stars.

It used to be that you'd watch wrestling on a Saturday or Sunday morning, and you'd know of course who was winning each match, but that didn't matter. You got to see what the guys getting pushed could do. You got to see their finishers as the dominant, match ending moves that they're supposed to be. You saw more guys as household names because of how they could be portrayed, and you saw more guys as viable threats to the championships.

Plus, when they would throw in a competitive match, it felt special... and they could draw feuds out longer so things always seemed more fresh, and it didn't seem like everyone who'd spent any length of time in the company had fought each other a million times already. Case in point. Ted Dibiase and Bret Hart were both in the WWF together for many years. In singles at the same time. In tags at the same time. On the opposite side of the dressing room some of the time. There was plenty of opportunity to have these guys paired off, and it would have made for an amazing program. In todays WWE, this one would have been done to death by now. Back then... they rarely ever worked together, and never had an actual program together that lasted longer than a night. The fact that you had jobbers back then is a reason why guys like them not only weren't needed to work together, but didn't have to work together to the point that no one wanted to see it anymore.

It'd be hard to go back to that model now though, as it's been so long that they've given away full shows of competitive matches for free. Just the responses in this thread are enough of an example that it would be a hard sell to go back to that. But something was lost when they moved away from that model, and it's the mid-card guys who can't get over because of how much they lose that suffer because of it.

 

[THTRobtaylor]

The jobber thing died in 1995 when they brought in the SMW roster and a few others as "Enhancement Talents" rather than pure jobbers. Guys like Louie Spicoli, Johnny Gunn, Tony Anthony, Tracey Smothers were all brought in to be jobbers, but under insipid gimmicks designed to create the illusion of "bigger stars" as the faces were perhaps more recognisable but still be jobbers.

The magic of the jobbers of the past was that they in a sense were working tryouts. Many of the last eras stars started there, guys like Mick Foley, Shane Douglas, Shawn Michaels, Bret Hart and more in between went through that phase of being a WWF jobber in their home town or on the road. They were hungry for success, for a chance and some did get theirs. Others had real potential, the late "Quick Draw" McGraw, Jim Powers and Paul Roma were guys who could have done more and would be akin to Zack Ryder today. When they got chances they took them and progressed but after that went back to where they were before...fodder.

By the time the late 90's came then developmental was in place, so jobbers weren't needed you'd just bring up someone from OVW or DSW. The last of the "true jobbers" I remember was someone like Brakkus/Achim Albrecht... he was brought in but just fed to guys despite having "the look".

Jobbers also came in all shapes and sizes in the 80's... you had a monster, you could feed them 2 skinny guys ala Bundy or find a larger guy to make them look bigger. You're putting Bret Hart in a televised singles match, then you could find one a similar size or close enough to make him look "ripped".

Where it went wrong was guaranteed deals for all... and it's going to be a very harsh awakening for a lot of guys in the next few months on the WWE roster that their deals won't be renewed as they are and some of them are going to become "jobbers" on Pay per Apperance deals once more.

Once everyone from Austin to Taka and Funaki were on guaranteed deals then the incentive to "hustle" and work hard disappeared and the element of pay or play was part of the business... How long did JTG get paid to sit at home? While I am sure he would like to be working, he certainly wasn't returning his checks either. Those older guys like Iron Mike Sharpe, SD Jones, Rocky Johnson were intent on working cos they didn't get on the card, they didn't get paid. They worked harder and made the talent they put over look better by doing so.

Once the genie was out with the contracts, so was the term "jobber". It was out there from Vince's gambit to avoid the commissions so now jobber was not only a "thing", but a "thing" no one wanted to be when the reality is for many, even today good "losers" can be with the company for years, where as "winners" can have very short spanned careers there.

Take Steve Lombardi, no one's definition of a great wrestler by any stretch but a regular on WWF TV for getting on for 10 years, never moved above jobber position although got a couple of gimmicks which was rare...HE'S STILL THERE TODAY! Cos he accepted his lot, didn't jump ship to WCW when Eric was throwing contracts around like confetti and worked hard to make others look good his whole career... some did leave but under the WWF "umbrella" like Al Snow, they sent him to ECW to come up with something they could use and he did... "Head" and Al was a fun "jobber to the stars" gimmick but before that he was just an out and out jobber.

The good thing is this era IS coming back, it has to economically. The competition is now too great from NXT talent and the Indy's for anyone who isn't above mid card level to be comfortable...Drew was the warning shot... holding an IC and or tag titles title means nothing...

WWE is beginning to have a dedicated stream of guys ready to step in at a moments notice for their "shot" NXT is in essence the "jobber's show" and once they move to the main roster they become either jobbers again or new stars... Look at Xavier Woods, jobber in NXT, good at it, jobber on the main roster but likely to remain employed for some time in that role. Guys like Ziggler complaining all the time about not being pushed could quickly find themselves told, take this "jobber deal" or walk... and have to negotiate the indy scene or TNA (god forbid) to avoid it. Many will take the WWE deal rather than want to risk it, cos being a jobber on the roster and on NXT regularly to help bring on the younger talents is perhaps preferable to handling all your own bookings, working with promoters who may or may not be as advertised or just cos they hope to "get back" after all, if Goldust (another who started life as a WWF jobber in 89-90) can do it, they can.

n the early 90's WWF Magazine would announce when someone became a jobber... they would do a "news article" or mention it in another article that they had "signed an open contract". Virgil, Tito Santana, Jim Neidhart, Rick Martel, The Barbarian were all among the once pushed stars who suffered that indignity. Can you imagine WWE.com saying that "Dolph Ziggler/The Miz etc" has signed an open contract? Cos I can...

 

[chicagokmc]

WWE like so much of the world lives in an environment of succeed right away or we'll move on to the next thing. new wrestlers dont get a chance to spend a year developing. they have to show right away they should be in wwe or its back down to nxt or maybe out. one of the best ways to do that is to have the newbies beat established talent, not established jobbers. fandango isn't going to waste time fighting the likes of an iron mike sharpe or brooklyn brawler, he's going to fight chris jericho right away at wrestlemania and win. instead of russev fighting 2 on 1s and 3 on 1s for months he already has clean wins over r-truth, big e, rvd and soon jack swagger.

also, there are just so many wrestlers on the roster. hard to justify giving a jobber tv time to get squashed at the expense of an established mid carder seeing no tv time at all.

 

[Straightfromthehart]

one of the best ways to do that is to have the newbies beat established talent, not established jobbers. fandango isn't going to waste time fighting the likes of an iron mike sharpe or brooklyn brawler, he's going to fight chris jericho right away at wrestlemania and win. instead of russev fighting 2 on 1s and 3 on 1s for months he already has clean wins over r-truth, big e, rvd and soon jack swagger.

also, there are just so many wrestlers on the roster. hard to justify giving a jobber tv time to get squashed at the expense of an established mid carder seeing no tv time at all.

The problem with this approach is it turns the likes of truth, big e, rvd into jobbers themselves...thus ending any push or build that these guys may have had themselves.

Look at kofi Kingston he's had two wins over cesaro the last two weeks. That is cesaro getting put over by a jobber, before that kofi had lost 10 matches in a row. Rusev walked over him and even Bo Dallas beat him so where does that put cesaro in the standings?

Like has been already said it seems your either in a program(storyline) or your a jobber, and it just doesn't help develop a roster of stars.

 

[THTRobtaylor]

The problem with this approach is it turns the likes of truth, big e, rvd into jobbers themselves...thus ending any push or build that these guys may have had themselves.

Look at kofi Kingston he's had two wins over cesaro the last two weeks. That is cesaro getting put over by a jobber, before that kofi had lost 10 matches in a row. Rusev walked over him and even Bo Dallas beat him so where does that put cesaro in the standings?

Like has been already said it seems your either in a program(storyline) or your a jobber, and it just doesn't help develop a roster of stars.

But that was always the nature of the business... like I mentioned, featured talent would then become jobbers at the appropriate time. Tito Santana was a main eventer and 2 time IC champion in the boom times, he was a major draw but when the time came he was putting EVERYONE over. Sgt Slaughter, Virgil, Yokozuna, Ziggler they have their "run" however short or long and then become the jobbers at the appropriate time when a replacement is available. Only the top, top guys avoid that and even then...Big Show and Kane have done their fair share of being a jobber, so has Jericho and so did Scott Steiner, Booker, even Benoit...

Once a guys time is done at the top then they either have to leave like Goldberg and not come back or move down the card, it's been that way for 50 years. Just as Harley Race and Terry and Dory Funk, even Dan Severn were once NWA champs, they eventually ended up jobbers in the WWF, not (just) cos Vince wanted to bury all NWA guys but because their skill and respect meant that one of his guys would gain far more from beating them than they would beating his guys... Sadly Vince picked the wrong guys in a log of cases... but Savage came out of that Rhodes feud the top heel in the company... Dusty jobbing out did it's erm... job...