Is Vince McMahon The Eric Bischoff Of This Era Of Wrestling?

[Low_Ki]

With wrestling as it is today, it comes across to me as though Vince McMahon seems ro be far more interested in making sure his ratings are better than TNA's. Now over the last month or so it seems as though TNA have been beating ECW (although a 3rd rate show, a WWE show non the less). Vince talked in an interview about how the WWE's ratings are trouncing TNA's. A 3.4 for RAW, not exactly trouncing.

Im a life long WWE fan but it just seems to me as though Vince is going down the same route as Eric Bishoff did before he started to lose control of WCW. Any comments? Do you think he is? Isn't?

 

[Ovaltine]

Vince has completely lost touch with the wrestling world. Yea, his shows still do good numbers and they sell tickets, but the show is so planed out that the angles (the few they ever have) are either completely transparent, or once they get going with an angle that seems to be good they run it straight into the ground. Less is more and this is something that Vince seems to have forgotten. If TNA had people that knew how to book their show Vince would be forced to be creative again, but he doesn't really have to worry about it because in TNA (despite have big names and amazing talent) they just don't know how to book anything over there. So, Vince will keep on doing what he does to entertain himself rather than entertain a new legion of fans. Meanwhile, the people who have given up watching will either get WWE on Demand so they don't have to watch the terrible state the wrestling is in or they will switch over to MMA. TNA and the WWE need to worry about having a good show. If the entire show is good- then the rating will rise. If the show is terrible with a few stupid gimmicks thrown in in the hopes that it will draw a good rating the shows will stangate- which is what they have been doing for years. As for the Bischoff commnet- WWE programing is way worse right now than durring any part of Bischoff's reign as head of WCW- the Vince Russo era of WCW- well, that's a different story

 

[Uncle Sam]

Bischoff lost control of WCW not because of bad booking, but because of the suits at Time Warner getting concerned with making the show less offensive and controversial.

You could draw parallels between WCW being forced to become more family friendly and the PG rating being made for the WWE, but I don't think that really works.

As it is, I don't think Vince is particularly concerned about competition, and I'll be amazed if they get properly beaten any time soon.

 

[finneycom1]

Well,
This is a very good question. I think Vince is a better business man than Bischoff is. Simply b/c I think Vince understands that competition is good for business. I think Vince wants WWE to beat TNA in ratings and try to deliver a better program.

However, on the other hand. If Vince thinks that competition is good for business, why the hell did he buy WCW? I think he had it in his mind that if he purchased WCW, that he would ultimately create the greatest organization in the history of the business. Even though, WWE is the biggest organization in the history of the business. It's the big time, the main event. The organization every up and comer strives to be a part of.

I think McMahon is too smart though, to let his business get out of hand. He doesnt wildly spend money on worthless shit(as you can see with the "every 6-month roster cuts.) Even though, alot of people think that the entertainment Vince has put on tv has been worthless, you still dont see things like $250,000 entrances(glacier), outrageous salaries(Hogan), etc. Vince controls his own money. He doesnt have a Ted Turner there that says "here ya go, do with it what you want. Oh, you need some more? Here ya go, have fun!!" If Vince was put in the position that Bischoff was in, he may go down the same path. But since it is his own money, I think he knows when enough is enough.

So to sum it up, the similarities between McMahon and Bischoff are uncanny. Both have great business minds but tend to be a little bit too concerned with "controversy creating cash" and way less concerned with pleasing the life-long fans. But, McMahon owns his company. Bischoff just worked for WCW. Huge difference!! I just dont see McMahon ever allowing things to go on in WWE like Bischoff did in WCW.

 

[Deviltaker95]

No way..The eric Bischoff of this era??? The only reason we think that Vince has lost touch w/ the product is due to the fact there is no competition for him. So he doesn't have to think of any great angles, he can have 3 ppv's in a row with the same guys in the main event, and bring out characters that nobody cares about...And why can he do this? Because we all go back and watch this crappy product hoping that it turns around....

We need 1 of 2 things to happen, either TNA starts learing how to book their shows and start coming on strong....or....the raw rating goes down to 2.0....

Thats the only way we can find out if Vince has lost his touch,,,Bischoff & Vince couldn't be any more different at those 2 time periods...To be honest with you i don't think Vince pays one bit of attention to TNA....The only thing McMahon and Bischoff have in common is they were great businessmen...Im just saying

 

[Chrisjeffers]

Vince bought out ECW.... He put his own wwf touch.... Instant replays... ECW died!
When WWE bought WCW.... He tried the whole invasion thing.... It didn't work!

So now he drops TNA talent that they would have sent to ECW back in the day....
WWE is kind of helping TNA to be competition....

And No!
Bischoff will always be the best! Vince is the best now only cause of the fact that WWE has been god-fathered in!
Ring of Honor is my pick for the next number one wrestling show!

 

[WOLFPACK0524]

I've been reading a lot of these forums now and this is the first one that I have had the chance to reply back to...

I've watched the WWE (F) for a long time. I hit 30 years old in May and remember watching before the first Wrestlemania. Vince has definitely changed since that time. The biggest change came at the KOTR with Austin declaring 3:16. The Attitude Era began the change because Vince knew he had competition and a marketing plan in Austin. Then the FCC came in and changed everything...language, stories, characters, etc. Vince also listened to the fans then too. We made who was good, bad, indifferent. Now with the acquisistion of ECW and WCW and the "new WCW" in TNA, the PG Era has brought in a senile Vince. He changes "fans" to a "universe" because he hates the word "fan." He makes the WWE Kids website and magazine. He's lost the fan of the Attitude Era and the "Audience of one" and his boys (HBK, HHH, Cena, Batista and Orton) have taken over. Raw will have no champion outside of the regulars for a long time.

The question of Vince being this era's Bischoff though: I'd say NO. Vince has the mind not to have David Arquette win the title.

 

[Chrisjeffers]

From what I can gather black and red was bischoff..... back and silver was russo....
When they started pushing jeff jerret that was russo.... thats why sting and david arquette beat jeff and russo..... so yeah...

 

[Slam Master]

Vince McMahon is Vince McMahon. The only thing Bischoff cared about was beating WWF in ratings. Period. Vince still makes new talent and pushes the guys. Vince might have made that remark so people like us would start wondering and conversing about it. Bischoff had wrestlers around him that were greedy, stubborn, and had more creative power with him. Contractual stipulations allowed them to make their own outcomes, and this resulted in lopsided booking with the same guys on top. They are both business giants and are talented in their own right, but Eric just didn't have the savvy to capitalize on the good things he had going.

The last 13 years has taken so much out of Vince. The company is huge, colossal now with so many guys on the roster and a creative team for each show, not to mention all the business obligations that resulted when the company went public. With all the stuff going on and with all the guys, he probably doesn't have the where-with-all that he used to. He definitely doesn't have the time to deal with every single creative situation and superstar that comes his way. He is burnt, no doubt, and he probably depends on others now more than ever to help with the product. Its not simple like it used to be with Vince, Pat Patterson, and a few agents calling all the shots. Everything is complicated. There are way too many heads in on the creative side of things, and now that his kids are fully involved I'm sure Vince caters to them more than anyone. The line of communication is so big that ideas get probably get totally morphed and changed before they get to Vince.

The product is what it is today for a few reasons. He's getting the little kids watching so they will continue to watch as they age. He will then gradually start going back to the edgier shows, like he did late 1996/early 1997 before going full-blown sleaze TV. He wants kids to bug their parents for merchandise and to order all the PPVs like I used to; the only difference is there was 5 back then. The real fans like us go out and buy the classic DVDs to get our dose of nostalgia and good wrestling since the show is what it is today (also a revenue stream). Another reason its PG today is to keep advertisers that don't mind being plugged into a wrestling show. They keep the revenue flowing.

Vince will get the point eventually with his core fanbase of guys like us giving up on the shows. I watch today because of the nostalgia value it provides me with but every week I watch RAW, the flagship show (apparently) it makes me cringe. Everyone claims he needs competition. TNA won't suffice, so we will be the competition. The ratings will eventually drop to embarrassing numbers and Vince will have the challenge of getting his core fans back into it. I know I went off on a tangent but there are a lot of factors around the Vince of today compared to mid-90s Vince. He is not the Eric Bishchoff of today in my opinion.

 

[Ambiguous Turd]

I have said a couple times now that today's WWE can, in many ways, be compared to WCW. It isn't even funny. To be specific, I view today's WWE as a cross between WCW and Ring of Honor.

But let's look at some of the similarities:

1) In WCW, Bischoff focused only on the Main Event when putting cards together, and essentially told his audience (indirectly) that "only the Main Event matters", while the rest was filler. In WWE today, Vince focuses only on the Main Event and essentially tells his audience that "only the Main Event matters", while the rest of the card is filler.

This is completely opposite of the Vince McMahon of old, who used to do an outstanding job building up the entire card of any show he produced. And WCW also had a problem in creating new Main Event stars because of this philosophy. And low and behold, WWE is having difficulty in creating new stars because of this philosophy.


2) To compliment #1, in WCW, they often waited until the very last minute to announce the entire PPV card for their shows. WWE used to have all cards pretty much finalized with the final matches at least 2 weeks in advance. Now, there are many times when Vince will wait until the very last week, and sometimes even wait and finalize his cards on WWE.com, hours before the PPV's.


3) Also complimenting #1, in WCW, Bischoff destroyed his Tag Team Division. In WWE, Vince has destroyed his Tag Team Division, as he doesn't feel Tag Teams sell.


4) In WCW, Eric Bischoff eliminated Face/Heel broadcast teams. When Bobby Heenan went to WCW, he is on record in later shoot interviews with Bischoff telling him that he no longer wanted Heenan to be "The Brain". Instead, he wanted Heenan to be like "John Madden" and simply put over the action. So at one point, WCW had literally no Heel announcers. Same with WWE today.

Overall, WCW's announcers were pretty bland, who simply focused on calling the action, or simply providing background into the matches. Today, WWE's announcers are bland, stale, and boring. But, make no mistake about it, that is the exactly the way Vince wants them to announce.


5) In WCW, often times their scripts would literally be finished right before the show started ... and often times, the shows would go on the air, without the script even being finished. In WWE, there are many times where the script does not get finished right up before the show starts, due to Vince McMahon constantly demanding things to be re-written.

Ironically enough, I found this statement from The Observer (interesting wording on Meltzer's part) -

There was "Nitro-like" vibe at the SmackDown/ECW tapings as the script for the show wasn't finalized until just before the show was about to go on the air. During the Nitro days, there were times when the show would start without the script being finished.

6) WCW typically featured awful storylines with very little thought and creativity put into them. In WWE, Vince has nearly eliminated storylines altogether, in favor of simply having two talents compete over the title, or #1 Contendership for a Title ... but the few storylines he does do anymore, are typically awful, and have very little effort put into them.


7) When WCW was up against WWE, WCW was the Family Friendly, PG organization. Today, WWE is the Family Friendly, PG organization.


8) Eric Bischoff made ratings the primary focus for measuring his product. Today, Vince McMahon makes ratings the primary focus for measuring his product.


9) In WCW, it was reported that they did not do very much long-term planning at all, while WWE used to plan things out tentatively for approximately 6 months. Today, WWE also does very little long-term planning with their product, as well. And that much is evident just from watching it.



There are a striking amount of similarities between today's WWE and WCW. For all the years Vince despised WCW, I never knew he secretly wanted his company to actually become like WCW.

 

[MisterRob]

With wrestling as it is today, it comes across to me as though Vince McMahon seems ro be far more interested in making sure his ratings are better than TNA's. Now over the last month or so it seems as though TNA have been beating ECW (although a 3rd rate show, a WWE show non the less). Vince talked in an interview about how the WWE's ratings are trouncing TNA's. A 3.4 for RAW, not exactly trouncing.

Im a life long WWE fan but it just seems to me as though Vince is going down the same route as Eric Bishoff did before he started to lose control of WCW. Any comments? Do you think he is? Isn't?

I personally think you're the one whose out of touch, not Vince McMahon. I don't think McMahon cares in any way about beating TNA's ratings, because its a given. TNA's not competition, they're not even an afterthough for Vince, and he doesn't have to think about it or struggle to beat them in the ratings. You're stretching so far its sad with that. And 3.4 isn't trouncing TNA's 1.2? That's three times the amount of viewers TNA gets. You're obviously not realizing how many actual viewers the difference is. It's taken TNA YEARS to get from a 1.0 to a 1.2, imagine how long it would take them to go 2.2 times in the ratings! it's taken them SEVEN years to go from a 0.8 to a 1.2... which is how much? That's right, 0.4.

You might be able to compare Vince McMahon and Eric Bischoff in other means, but I really don't see how there's much at all similar to McMahon and his position right now as Eric Bischoff during his "era". What exactly is similar? They both dye their hair to hide the white?

 

[Low_Ki]

I personally think you're the one whose out of touch, not Vince McMahon. I don't think McMahon cares in any way about beating TNA's ratings, because its a given. TNA's not competition, they're not even an afterthough for Vince, and he doesn't have to think about it or struggle to beat them in the ratings. You're stretching so far its sad with that. And 3.4 isn't trouncing TNA's 1.2? That's three times the amount of viewers TNA gets. You're obviously not realizing how many actual viewers the difference is. It's taken TNA YEARS to get from a 1.0 to a 1.2, imagine how long it would take them to go 2.2 times in the ratings! it's taken them SEVEN years to go from a 0.8 to a 1.2... which is how much? That's right, 0.4.

You might be able to compare Vince McMahon and Eric Bischoff in other means, but I really don't see how there's much at all similar to McMahon and his position right now as Eric Bischoff during his "era". What exactly is similar? They both dye their hair to hide the white?

The point I am trying to make is that the fact that Vince is talking in the media about 'trouncing' TNA in the ratings goes to prove that he cares more about ratings than he does the product. Does that, or does that not sound like Bischoff?

And ok sure a 3.4 is three times the audience that TNA has and your right, it has taken TNA years to get from the 1.0 to the 1.2 ratings, and although the 3.4 number is a solid number, I just feel that the WWE should be concentrating more on their product than the numbers. And lets face it, if TNA has better production and better writers, it may be just what TNA needs to break through the glass ceiling. I'm not out of touch, I love the WWE, I have for over 20 years, I just feel like its turning into a show full of insider jokes (i.e Santina/Jim Ross angle), I don't know, maybe its the times.

 

[Henry Hill]

Lord Sidious on the previous page outlines not only why wwe is now like wcw, but also why wwe is getting more and more similar to ufc, guys with no character, no heel/face wrestlers or announcers, its all a move to be more like mma than vince becoming like bischoff. if anything vince isn't like bischoff, he's more like turner, having everyone report to him and making decisions without being truly in touch with the wrestling audience at this point. i think eric bischoff had a good mind for the business and would do well running a company, especially now since he's probably learned a lot from his mistakes, whereas with vince you can't teach an old dog new tricks.

 

[pampero firpo]

TNA is horrible. its the minors leagues.
vince mcmahon needs to come up with some fresh ideas. wwe is so stale. eric bischoff was much more creative then vince mcmahon is.

 

[LMaruko]

There are a lot of issues here that give a balance between whether or not McMahon is a modern-day Eric Bischoff.

First off, like it is said above, McMahon bought out WCW because Bischoff's original partners had backed out of the deal. It would have been interesting to see where WCW would stand today, competition-wise, and where wrestlers could go in light of that fact. I mean, I don't even think TNA would exist if WCW's original buyers did complete the deal, due to Jarrett's loyalty to the WCW (by leaving the WWE), and by Vince's hatred toward Jarrett. Then again, with all the pending lawsuits that were pending with WCW kinda left it hanging in the balance. Jarrett and Bischoff should have became partners, seeing as though TNA was founded a year after WWE bought WCW.

Going back to topic, Bischoff, I think, was a desperate man, considering back during the Monday Night Wars when he gave away storylines and results to McMahon's product. McMahon seems in no particular way "desperate." Mind you, McMahon doesn't have the competition that he once had, but if EcW was McMahon's flagship show, maybe he might be one to turn foul. But I don't see McMahon giving away TNA storylines, or sabotaging the TNA roster by "buying" talent. Of course, people may believe that Bischoff had nothing to be desperate about, but I disagree. Giving away results is a desperate attack, regardless of the outcome.

Now, with the statement apparently made by McMahon about how competition is healthy, and buying out WCW and ECW... that was a horrible business move, IF "competition is healthy." Obviously, buying out the competition will send most of the competition his way, but what else can compete? TNA isn't even close to competing with RAW or Smackdown (shows Vince cares about). Bischoff and Hogan are thinking about creating a new wrestling federation (aside from that Celebrity crap) with TNA and WWE alumni, and I don't think that's even going to be ANY competition, even to TNA. I saw somewhere in the US laws that buying out your competition to become a monopoly is illegal. I highly believe that buying WCW and ECW (no matter how financially unstable they were) should have been considered illegal, and should have remained separate from the WWE.

As for the shows, yeah, I agree that they can be compared to WCW. But you have to think that a lot of WCW writers are working in WWE. You also have new writers who have bachelors and masters degrees who don't know shit about the product, pop culture, or anything else. Outside "writing experience" with the new writers does NOTHING for creative! For example, I was working for a marketing research company as a survey conductor for about six months. I was promoted to a supervisor who knew the work. My boss got caught embezzling a couple thousand dollars from the company, and he got the boot. I became general manager. I was 22, no degree except for my high school diploma, and I was making a nice little salary. I was then told by my district manager to find a assistant manager who was qualified to run the office while I was out. I find this guy who had a four year degree in marketing AND management (double major) who couldn't even manage his way out of a paper bag. Degrees pretty much mean squat to me, and should to anyone else. WWE needs writers who KNOW the product, who love it to where they wouldn't mind being paid as much as Vince's poolboy to write for them. The WWE needs people like us, obviously, to run a show and to make it better.

But I digress. McMahon isn't a modern-day Bischoff. Or at least I don't think so. He has nothing to fear until a couple of years goes on by when TNA picks up a lot of WWE rejects with a decent fan base (i.e., jobbers to the stars) and makes them huge. Kennedy comes to mind.

Hopefully McMahon does change back to the good ol' McMahon we love to hate.

 

[It's...Baylariat!]

With wrestling as it is today, it comes across to me as though Vince McMahon seems ro be far more interested in making sure his ratings are better than TNA's. Now over the last month or so it seems as though TNA have been beating ECW (although a 3rd rate show, a WWE show non the less). Vince talked in an interview about how the WWE's ratings are trouncing TNA's. A 3.4 for RAW, not exactly trouncing.

Im a life long WWE fan but it just seems to me as though Vince is going down the same route as Eric Bishoff did before he started to lose control of WCW. Any comments? Do you think he is? Isn't?

Vince does not care about his ratings. He cares about advertising to make him money. If he cared about the ratings, you wouldn't see them at the 3.4 level. You'd see them near 4 or 5. Trust me, I think Vinnie Mac has it on cruise control with no viable entity that can challenge his throne.

His ratings are plummeting and will continue the trend until he's nearly forced to make a drastic move and start shocking us again. Right now, TNA is so far from competing, there not even on the same element as the WWE is now. The WWE is publicly funded, and publicly ran and is a money making monster. With clothes, figures, advertisements, and PPV's, the WWE will always make money, until they do something so stupid to turn off wrestling fans from the product.

And right now, it's headed that way. He has Stephanie McMahon pretty much running the ship as far as writing is concerned hiring writers from sitcoms. Pure bullshit. And I'll say this, Vince doesn't have as much of a say as he used to. There's NO WAY he'd let some of the bullshit that goes on the air go if he had the last word.

Right now, Vince is in control and he's won the battle. Now, he's just trying to stay afloat.

 

[Ambiguous Turd]

Vince does not care about his ratings. He cares about advertising to make him money. If he cared about the ratings, you wouldn't see them at the 3.4 level. You'd see them near 4 or 5. Trust me, I think Vinnie Mac has it on cruise control with no viable entity that can challenge his throne.

With the only problem being that if he doesn't care about ratings, and only cares about advertising dollars (which I think he does somewhat care about ratings .... but make no mistake about it, advertising dollars comes first for him), then the lower the ratings go, the less attractive his product is going to be to advertisers, and therefore logic says that the less advertising dollars he will get. So, perhaps I am looking at it wrong, but logic seems to tell me that one has a direct impact on the other. The higher the rating, the more advertisers are willing to pay to have spots on his programs. The lower the rating, the less advertisers will pay to have spots on his programs.

And right now, it's headed that way. He has Stephanie McMahon pretty much running the ship as far as writing is concerned hiring writers from sitcoms. Pure bullshit. And I'll say this, Vince doesn't have as much of a say as he used to. There's NO WAY he'd let some of the bullshit that goes on the air go if he had the last word.

You see, I couldn't disagree more with that statement. And my opinion of this matter completely changed with the leadup to Wrestlemania, and how Vince was acting. That was when I realized that it wasn't really Stephanie in charge of the Creative team, but rather Vince McMahon who was in charge of the Creative team.

For as much as we have heard throughout the years, that it is Vince McMahon who is responsible for this, that, and the other thing ... and for as many people who have said that nothing goes on the air without his approval, and how he has his writers revise scripts, and revise and revise and revise them again until he is satisfied, there is no doubt that every single thing you see on Raw and Smackdown is the way Vince McMahon wants it.

My guess is that he doesn't pay as much attention to ECW and Superstars, however the shows still have the similar look and feel to the other programs.

Vince McMahon conducts virtually all the Creative meetings, according to the reports. For someone who is Chairman of the Board of the company, he is awfully involved in this one process. Same concept with the Ringside Commentators, and him screaming in their ears, telling them what he wants them to say. If Stephanie was the one truly in charge of the Creative team, you would think that she would be the one conducting all the Creative meetings, without Vince necessarily being in attendance, and dealing with the Commentary issue along with Kevin Dunn. You know whenever Vince is involved, he is going to immediately take over, because that is the way he is.

Right now, Vince is in control and he's won the battle. Now, he's just trying to stay afloat.

Vince won the battle against WCW. However, he still has another battle against him, in the form of disgruntled fans who are unhappy that Vince has changed the product the way he has ... fans that are either heading over to UFC or completely bolting all together.

Just because Vince has no competition at the moment, I think he is naive to think that people won't leave his product and simply go elsewhere, if he doesn't give them what they want to see. So I think his battle at the moment is keeping the fans who are losing interest in his product.