Is The Legacy Of Ricky Steamboat Overrated?

[ice82683]

Excellent post first and foremost, you have alot of people talking.

Secondly, I think this is one of those things that you just had to be there to witness the greatness.

I'm sure something similar was brought up in other replies (did not read all of them sorry).. but are you going to to tell me that because of the things someone like lebron james can do now or what albert pujols is doing now makes what Michael Jordan and Babe Ruth did any less special.

it's kind of the which came first the chicken or the egg. Sure looking back steamboat's stuff doesn't look as amazing when compared to what we've seen since, with the rey mysterio's flying around, and the jericho's and benoits, and hart's, and hbk's being able to put on a clinic. But you have to ask yourself, would they be able to do what they do, or even be inspired to do it if not for someone like steamboat.

Many like Jericho have said that the Steamboat/Savage match made them want to do this. That alone to me at least proves his legacy is not one based on being overrated.

 

[Davi323]

Ricky Steamboat's legacy is very well deserved. Look, when you have Ric Flair saying that you are the one guy he never had a bad match with, considering they must have wrestled each other a thousand times over their careers, I will take that level of praise any day of the week.

I am gonna be open and honest about my Ricky Steamboat fandom. I am not even close to being unbiased when it comes to him. But he earned every compliment he ever got. Not from me, but from all the other wrestlers. The guy was a pro's pro. If more wrestlers took the craft of creating a great wrestling match more like Steamboat did, the world of pro wrestling would be much better off.

 

[pyrusane]

Who gives a fuck? In listing this stuff, you're clearly missing the point...CLIP...Even if it were true that Steamboat is an all-time great, people's declarations of such coupled with the ignorance the masses have regarding Steamboat is what makes him overrated.

Coco, I like you, but you're wrong here. The "ignorance of the masses" means absolutely nothing in a discussion about Steamboat. I became a fan of wrestling because of Ricky Steamboat, and it was before WM3. Just because a large majority of younger fans are unaware of the majority of the mans work doesn't make that work invalid, it merely eliminates those fans' opinions from the discussion. So if we take away those opinions (since they are worthless) then what are we left with? The opinions of those who do know what the hell they are talking about.

Now, my opinion about professional wrestling may mean very little (although I am paid to write about it, therefore someone at least finds value in it) but I think the opinions of guys like Flair and Chris Jericho might carry a little bit of weight, and they both consider Steamboat to be an all-time great. Now you can argue all day long with the casual internet fan that the man is or is not over-rated, but I don't think you can discount the fact that one of the undisputed greatest of all time considers him the best opponent he ever faced, nor can you discount the fact that Jericho credits Steamboat with paving the way for smaller wrestlers like himself. If there had been no Steamboat, there would be no Jericho, no HBK, possible even no Bret Hart, at least not in the WWF/E. Without Steamboat showing that a smaller wrestler could be a legitimate contender, so many of the guys that are considered undisputed legends in the business would never have had a chance to show that they could carry the ball. Hardly what I would call over-rated. But I'm sure you will disagree.

 

[Davi323]

people's declarations of such coupled with the ignorance the masses have regarding Steamboat is what makes him overrated. I couldn't give a fuck less what accomplishments of his you list because those change nothing. To think they do is to be taking part in a different conversation than that which his just detractors are having.

Using that logic, Wayne Gretsky, Larry Bird, Magic Johnson, Joe Montana, Jerry Rice, Babe Ruth and Hank Aaron are all overrated too. These guys are all considered to be among the very best that ever played their sports...but how many of us have actually seen them play for an extended period of time? I never watched Ruth or Aaron. Does that mean that they are overrated? By the time I started to watch hockey, Wayne Gretsky was an LA King, not an Oiler, and his best days were clearly behind him. Today's young NBA fans are growing up with Kobe and LeBron, not Magic and Bird and Jordan. They have only heard about these players, not actually seen them play. Overrated? Have you ever watched Joe Montana or Jerry Rice throughout the course of a season, when they were in their primes? If not, then I guess they are overrated too. After all, we aren't giving a fuck about accomplishments, so mentioning Stanley Cups, World Series titles, NBA titles, Super Bowl wins, etc means nothing.

Besides, who the fuck are you to judge how ignorant the masses are? You assume that everyone who watches wrestling doesn't have a fucking clue as to who Steamboat is. Some of us are old enough to have watched his career in Mid South, the NWA and the WWF. Just because you are too damn young to remember it doesn't mean others are. Its the same thing with fucking morons who think that all Jerry Lawler has ever done is commentate for the WWF/E.

Ricky the Dragon Steamboat is one of the most respected wrestlers of all time. Respected by his peers, by the people that actually wrestled him. Their opinions matter a hell of a lot more than some dumb punk who thinks pro wrestling began with the Attitude era. Did you happen to miss his whole storyline with Chris Jericho a few years back? He showed that at his age, despite the injuries that cut his career short, he is still a better wrestler than 85% of the roster. Just because he wasn't flashy, wasn't cocky, wasn't flamboyant, do not mistake that for a lack of ability. Steamboat's entire career was about having a great match, not whipping up the fans into a frenzy, not seeing how many times he could hold championship gold, but about the art form of pro wrestling. The match itself was the beginning, the middle, and the end. Go buy the Steamboat DVD set. Watch it. Listen to all of the praise other wrestlers heap towards him. Then try to tell me Steamboat is overrated.

 

[Coco]

Coco, I like you, but you're wrong here. The "ignorance of the masses" means absolutely nothing in a discussion about Steamboat. I became a fan of wrestling because of Ricky Steamboat, and it was before WM3. Just because a large majority of younger fans are unaware of the majority of the mans work doesn't make that work invalid, it merely eliminates those fans' opinions from the discussion. So if we take away those opinions (since they are worthless) then what are we left with? The opinions of those who do know what the hell they are talking about.

But we really don't take away those opinions. Often times, some of the most boisterous, prominent voices in the crowd are those of ignorant children who desperately want to be cool in the eyes of adults. Ferbian, I know you're reading this. You read everything. Yes, I'm talking about your breed of poster. Some people feel the need to speak whether or not they have anything of value to add on a subject. And as people who were around to watch wrestling in Steamboat's prime dwindle in numbers, the ignorance grows. As such, very few wrestlers get to be ranked in a manner which carries with it any sort of validity.

Now, my opinion about professional wrestling may mean very little (although I am paid to write about it, therefore someone at least finds value in it) but I think the opinions of guys like Flair and Chris Jericho might carry a little bit of weight, and they both consider Steamboat to be an all-time great. Now you can argue all day long with the casual internet fan that the man is or is not over-rated, but I don't think you can discount the fact that one of the undisputed greatest of all time considers him the best opponent he ever faced, nor can you discount the fact that Jericho credits Steamboat with paving the way for smaller wrestlers like himself. If there had been no Steamboat, there would be no Jericho, no HBK, possible even no Bret Hart, at least not in the WWF/E. Without Steamboat showing that a smaller wrestler could be a legitimate contender, so many of the guys that are considered undisputed legends in the business would never have had a chance to show that they could carry the ball. Hardly what I would call over-rated. But I'm sure you will disagree.

I will disagree. First of all, Flair's invested in protecting Steamboat's legacy because in doing that, their matches in '89 remain a big deal and he keeps the massive feather in the cap that is his own legacy. Flair's opinion might carry weight with some and he might mean what he says, but he has far too much riding on Steamboat actually being a big deal for me to regard what he has as significant. To take his opinion into account risks biasing our ratings. I don't want to make this rating any less valid than it already is. Which is why I also can't take into account the nostalgic ramblings of Chris Jericho, a raving mark in this instance who just happens to be a wrestler.

All in all, you'd have to bend over backwards to convince me that any ranking for Steamboat is justified and even then I probably wouldn't buy it.

 

[byrnside]

I just have to say that, in my opinion (which I'm sure will probably get blasted), I don't think that guys like Flair, Savage, Hogan and even Steamboat are/were the best just because they say they were the best or their peers say they were the best, but it's also because the fans think they were the best. Personally, I'd put anyone of those 4 pretty damn close to the top of my Top 20 List of the Best Wrestlers of All-Time. (Which, as a side note, would be comprised of not just based on in-ring ability) I realize we're talking about a different level when comparing someone like a Steamboat or even a Savage to a Hogan or a Flair, because arguably Hogan and Flair are are probably two of the most popular wrestlers of all time.

But my question is really for CoCo, if you think Steamboat is overrated, who is underrated or better than Steamboat? I can see your point when you say "Flair is only interested in protecting his legacy/keeping himself relevant." I can understand that. But aside from what Flair says, why would someone as popular/respected as Jericho say that Steamboat is one of the best the business has had to offer?

 

[Davi323]

I will disagree. First of all, Flair's invested in protecting Steamboat's legacy because in doing that, their matches in '89 remain a big deal and he keeps the massive feather in the cap that is his own legacy. Flair's opinion might carry weight with some and he might mean what he says, but he has far too much riding on Steamboat actually being a big deal for me to regard what he has as significant.

Absolute bullshit. Ric Flair's legacy doesn't even remotely need the Steamboat rub. Do you seriously not have a fucking clue about all of the people Flair has wrestled over his career? If its about just protecting his own legacy, why isn't Flair saying he never had a bad match with Dusty Rhodes? Sting? Hogan? Savage? Nikita Koloff? Magnum TA? Harley Race? Any of the other countless wrestlers Flair has feuded with over the years? Flair had memorable feuds with lots of wrestlers. If he said him and Steamboat had a few stinkers, absolutely nothing would have changed. Ric Flair would have been Ric Flair without Steamboat, there is no reason for him to single out praise on Ricky to protect his legacy. Flair's legacy is untouchable, and he damn well knows it. The only reason Flair would praise Steamboat that much is if he felt he deserved it.

I completely reject your theory that Flair is artificially propping up Steamboat to protect his own legacy, as it is so ridiculous, that it isn't even laughable. It's sad that you have so little knowledge and respect for wrestling history that you actually believe the bullshit coming out of your mouth.

 

[Coco]

Absolute bullshit. Ric Flair's legacy doesn't even remotely need the Steamboat rub. Do you seriously not have a fucking clue about all of the people Flair has wrestled over his career? If its about just protecting his own legacy, why isn't Flair saying he never had a bad match with Dusty Rhodes? Sting? Hogan? Savage? Nikita Koloff? Magnum TA? Harley Race? Any of the other countless wrestlers Flair has feuded with over the years? Flair had memorable feuds with lots of wrestlers. If he said him and Steamboat had a few stinkers, absolutely nothing would have changed. Ric Flair would have been Ric Flair without Steamboat, there is no reason for him to single out praise on Ricky to protect his legacy. Flair's legacy is untouchable, and he damn well knows it. The only reason Flair would praise Steamboat that much is if he felt he deserved it.

I completely reject your theory that Flair is artificially propping up Steamboat to protect his own legacy, as it is so ridiculous, that it isn't even laughable. It's sad that you have so little knowledge and respect for wrestling history that you actually believe the bullshit coming out of your mouth.

What's really sad is that you're getting so bent out of shape that you refuse to open your eyes and realize that the two of them had a bad match together in 1993 where they absolutely failed to generate an iota of interest of the crowd. Motivation behind Flair's lie, exaggerated or not, is immaterial if he really said he never had a bad match with Steamboat because he clearly did. As such, doesn't that lie in and of itself support my earlier claim that he's overrated? I sure think it does.

As for Flair's legacy being rock solid, his repetitive ring work and refusal to step aside say otherwise. If he hasn't have returned to the WWE in 2001, I doubt people would think half as highly of him today as they do. But that's for another time. The important thing is that we've caught Flair in a lie where he's obviously overrating Steamboat. Thanks for aiding my "sad" argument.

 

[Davi323]

If he hasn't have returned to the WWE in 2001, I doubt people would think half as highly of him today as they do. But that's for another time. The important thing is that we've caught Flair in a lie where he's obviously overrating Steamboat. Thanks for aiding my "sad" argument.

What you mean is people under the age of 25 wouldn't. Those of us significantly older, who watched him in the NWA, WCW and WWF live, know better. Ric Flair was already one of the two most iconic wrestlers ever before rejoining the WWF/E. Again, it is obvious that you know very little about wrestling history, comments like yours would never be made by someone who watched him for the first two and a half decades of his career.

Curious, which match in 1993? You failed to give any specifics at all as to when this "bad" match happened. Further, you base it on lack of crowd reaction, not on any technical deficiency. Crowd reaction has nothing to do with in-ring ability, which, even if I blindly accept your statement that there was such a match, doesn't mean a thing. Fans get excited over matches that are technically horrible, and they sometimes fail to appreciate great wrestling. If the match was an absolute stinker, with botched moves, displayed a total lack of effort or something, that would be one thing.But you don't claim that...you only claim the crowd wasn't in to it.

How many of Flair's titles came before he rejoined the WWF/E in E2001? How many came after? Do a little research, look at everything Flair did prior to 2001, and then try to tell me that his post 2001 career is what made the Nature Boy a legend. I got news for you...Flair was already a guaranteed HOFer before 2001. Compared to the rest of his career, 2001-2011 absolutely pales in comparison. Its like trying to claim that without his return to the NBA as a Washington Wizard, that Michael Jordan wouldn't be the greatest basketball player ever.

 

[Little Jerry Lawler]

How many of Flair's titles came before he rejoined the WWF/E in E2001? How many came after? Do a little research, look at everything Flair did prior to 2001, and then try to tell me that his post 2001 career is what made the Nature Boy a legend. I got news for you...Flair was already a guaranteed HOFer before 2001. Compared to the rest of his career, 2001-2011 absolutely pales in comparison. Its like trying to claim that without his return to the NBA as a Washington Wizard, that Michael Jordan wouldn't be the greatest basketball player ever.

Of course his post 2001 career is what made him a legend because the WWE constantly told us that he's the "Dirtiest Player In The Game" and how Ric Flair's the greatest of all time. The same goes with Shawn Michaels as well. Revisionist history is always alive and well in the WWE and if they tell us so-and-so is the greatest over and over then that wrestler will be overrated when it's all said and done. If Flair retired fifteen years ago, he wouldn't be overrated as he is now.

Going off of Coco's post a little bit, why do you think Jericho always brings up the fact that he beat Stone Cold and The Rock in the same night? The reason is that is the one of the only things he can hold to and we can remember that exact thing about him. If he wasn't the first undisputed champion, what would we say about him in ten years? Great midcard wrestler and that's it.

 

[Davi323]

revisionist history? Are you fucking insane? The ignorance of some of today's wrestling fans is astounding. Do you seriously think that the WWE invented Ric Flair's accolades? Wow. You guys are morons. The Nature Boy was an all-time legend already 20 years ago. As in 1991. Not because the WWE told me, but because - fucking watched his career as it was happening. The WWE didn't need to invent a damn thing with Flair, he had already done everythng any wrestler could ever accomplish. That is why Coco's argument that Flair is just protecting his own legacy by praising Steamboat is such bullshit. Just because you idiots think wrestling was invented ten years ago doesn't mean it was. I challenge you to do the same thing I challenged Coco with: go research Flair's career, his ENTIRE career, look at what he did before 2001, and then try to tell me that he doesn't deserve all of the praise he gets, based only on what he did prior to ten years ago. The man has been wrestling since the 1970s, and was the standard bearer for all of the NWA territories for years. He doesn't have anything to prove to anyone, and hasn't had to for more than a decade. When he says Steamboat was the man, he says it because he means it, not because his legacy would be diminished if he didn't. Flair would be on the Mt. Rushmore of wrestling, and he doesn't need his feud with Steamboat to be there. He has nothing to gain by praising Steamboat, he already has it all.

 

[JaredJammer]

I've always thought Steamboat was one of the more overrated "legends." I know he had a great run with Savage in '87 and then Flair in '89, but too much of his career was spent outside of the main event for me to consider him a top-tier legend like so many else do. While he was great in the ring, I never found his character interesting in the least. He was the bland Mr. Family Man... *yawn*

In my opinion, he's more on the level of a Barry Windham or a Rick Rude than a Randy Savage or HBK, which is where many people seem to place him (P.W.I. Years Rankings: Savage #9, HBK #10, Steamboat #13, Windham #35, Rude #57).

 

[byrnside]

Of course his post 2001 career is what made him a legend because the WWE constantly told us that he's the "Dirtiest Player In The Game" and how Ric Flair's the greatest of all time. The same goes with Shawn Michaels as well. Revisionist history is always alive and well in the WWE and if they tell us so-and-so is the greatest over and over then that wrestler will be overrated when it's all said and done. If Flair retired fifteen years ago, he wouldn't be overrated as he is now.

Going off of Coco's post a little bit, why do you think Jericho always brings up the fact that he beat Stone Cold and The Rock in the same night? The reason is that is the one of the only things he can hold to and we can remember that exact thing about him. If he wasn't the first undisputed champion, what would we say about him in ten years? Great midcard wrestler and that's it.

Okay, here's where I'm drawing the line. This is where, even as a 25 year old, I am starting to feel old. Granted I've been watching the WWE since I was about 4 years old. HBK was probably 10 times the wrestler he was before he retired in '98 that he was after 2002. The fact that he returned from such a significant injury and was still as impressive says so much. Michaels was one of the most innovative in-ring performers of my generation, and he inspired an entirely new generation of wrestlers. He was probably the most significant wrestler to win a world title weighing less than 230 pounds. The fact that the WWE was constantly commenting on Michaels being one of the greatest is because it's true! When The Brooklyn Brawler makes an occasional appearance they certainly don't build him up to be some monumental legend, certainly not to the caliber of Shawn Michaels, nor do they for Sgt. Slaughter or probably even Ricky The Dragon for that matter.

The same is true for Ric Flair. Ric Flair was The Dirtiest Player in The Game long before 2001. Davi is right. Look at Flair's accomplishments, Hell, before 1995 and tell me he isn't one of the greatest the business has ever seen. Flair held all those world titles before it was commonplace to hold more than say, 5 world championships.. before holding a world title for 9 months was a record. It just wasn't that common for someone to win a World title in the 70s and even the 80s on multiple occasions. YouTube some of his matches against Harley Race or Dusty Rhodes from back in the day. One of the most memorable matches I have ever seen was his retirement match with HBK from 'Mania XXV. It certainly wasn't either man's best in-ring work, but the fact that someone at age 59 could go out there and still put on quality work is amazing.

 

[The Eighties]

I think Ricky Steamboat's legacy is rated exactly as it should be, he was never seen as one of the biggest draws ever but he is respected by both fans and more importantly his fellow workers as one of the very best in ring performers of all time and as one of the best pure babyface's of all time.

His match quality stands up well long after his active in ring days, and I'd say his trilogy with Flair is a benchmark as yet unmatched by any other series. His match with Savage at WrestleMania III is still one of the top 5 matches ever at the grandest show of them all and to this day many young wrestlers cite wanting to match it for quality if given the chance.

Other than Flair and Savage there is no other wrestler from the 80's who'd I'd rather go back and watch when I stick in a DVD of an old event.

 

[The Eighties]

What's really sad is that you're getting so bent out of shape that you refuse to open your eyes and realize that the two of them had a bad match together in 1993 where they absolutely failed to generate an iota of interest of the crowd. Motivation behind Flair's lie, exaggerated or not, is immaterial if he really said he never had a bad match with Steamboat because he clearly did. As such, doesn't that lie in and of itself support my earlier claim that he's overrated? I sure think it does.

I think the match you are referring to was at Spring Stampede 94.

 

[god-soldier]

Frankly I think this thread is B.S. Ricky Steamboat is one of the pioneers of in ring ability and putting on a worth wild match. I still believe that his match with Randy Savage @ WM III was the second best match in wrestlemaina history and probably one of the best singles matches for the I-C title ever. I think HBK is overrated and his matches @ WM are overrated sure he might have the best one with Bret Hart but that match was 60 minutes so it better be the best. Now if Savage n Steamboat had a 60 minute match for the WWE title than it would be the best.
Ricky Steamboat is a legend and a Hall of Famer, He is the only wrestler to be a fan favorite his whole career which means he can only be in there with great wrestlers or wrestler pushing to be great such as Steve Austin. Steamboat never gets credit because his main event status didn't last long the WWE would never give it to him n NWA relied on Steamboat to be in the main event and make guys main eventers. I'm tired of HBK he is so overrated as a in ring performer sure he could go for a longtime but so could Steamboat sure Michaels could make it look good taken a beating but so could Steamboat. Michael only has was that the WWE took time to make him big Steamboat couldn't get that in a racist WWE. Steamboat deserves his much earned respect as one of the best in ring competitors because there was only so far he could go in a predominately white business. Back then being NWA champion was bigger and better than WWE champion because it was given to the best wrestler not cartoon character style showman like Hogan. This means Steamboat has paid his dues and the accolades he receives from his peers and the fans is well deserved
and rating him as one of the best in-ring performers is where Steamboat needs to be no matter what B.S. story and references you come up with let the man be celebrated

 

[RickRockwell]

Wow, I can't believe some of you would say Steamboat's legacy is overrated. Even more shocking is saying that Flair's legacy is overrated... But since this is a Steamboat thread I will focus on him... Steamboat at age 50 is better than half the wrestlers in WWE right now which was proven by his feud with jericho.. I'm beginning to think that these message boards are full of wrestling fans who started watching wrestling post 1996 AUstin 3:16 era..