Is The Legacy Of Ricky Steamboat Overrated?

[TUFFY54]

CALM DOWN. TAKE A DEEP BREATH. JUST HEAR ME OUT.

I want to talk about legacy of Ricky Steamboat. Steamboat is a legend in pro wrestling. He is a WWE Hall of Fame member and considered to be one of the greatest wrestlers of all time. I'm not really sure I agree with that last part. Steamboat certainly had great in ring skills and was popular for sure. But I just don't think that qualifies him for the legacy he is given. Lets take a look at a few of the things that come to mind with Ricky Steamboat.

He had a great match with Randy Savage at Wrestlemania 3
This is one of the two main things that people think of when they think of Steamboat. I've seen the match many times. It was fast paced, high flying, and a great match in 1987. Many people proclaimed it one of the best matches in the history of Wrestlemania, and it was for a few years. The thing that you have to remember about that match was that it was amazing for 87. It was one of the first technical, high flying, matches of its kind in the WWE, but many, many, Wrestlemania matches have been better. Here are a few:

Hogan vs. Andre (say what you want, it sold 90,000 tickets)
Flair vs. Savage
Razor Ramon vs. Shawn Michaels
Bret vs. Owen
Bret vs. Shawn
Bret vs. Austin
Undertaker vs. Kane
Austin vs. Rock I, II, and III
Austin vs. Shawn
TLC I and II
Angle vs. Benoit
Hogan vs. Rock (not a masterpiece, but almost no match since has had that excitement)
Shawn Michaels vs. Jericho
Angle vs. Lesnar
Benoit vs. Michaels vs. Triple H
Kurt Angle vs. Michaels
Money In The Bank
Shawn Michaels vs. Ric Flair
Shawn vs. Undertaker I and II

When compared to the others, Steamboat vs. Savage was just one in a number of great matches at Wrestlemania. You have to be fair in judging the past. That match was great for its time, but its time is long gone. Many people might think that's a stupid way to look at it, but it's the way we look at everything else in wrestling. For example, 30 years ago Bruno Sammartino and Pedro Morales would unquestionably be considered two of the greatest world champions of all time. Today, I've never seen them on anyone's top ten list. It's the same with looking at a match from 24 years ago. Some people might think there's a flaw in this logic because we still talk about how great Hogan and Flair were from the same time period. I disagree. We still talk about Hogan because, to this day, he's popularity has been surpassed by almost no one. We still talk about Flair because the promo's he gave 25 years ago are still some of the greatest promo's anyone has ever given. Savage and Steamboat had a great match, but it has been surpassed many times over.

His Feud With Ric Flair in 1989
This is the other main thing that people think of when the think of Steamboat. Steamboat beat Flair of the title, retained in the rematch, and lost the belt back to Flair in the third match. All three matches were classics. No one has ever said otherwise. The odd thing about it was that this epic feud only lasted three months. Many people call this the greatest rivalry ever, but it only last three matches. Anyone will tell you that Flair was Steamboats greatest opponent, but it would be hard to say the same for Flair. Flair has had amazing feuds with all the top names in wrestling. Other than Flair and Savage, can anyone think of another great feud Steamboat had? None seem to come to mind. Their have been many feuds better than the one Flair and Steamboat had. Here are a few:

Austin vs. Rock
Shawn vs. Undertaker
Lesnar vs. Angle
Benoit vs. Angle
NWO vs. WCW
Austin vs. McMahon
Hogan vs. Sting
Bret vs. Shawn
Sting vs. Flair
Dusty vs. Flair
Sting vs. Vader
Hogan vs. Flair
Hogan vs. Piper
Bret vs. Austin
Triple H vs. Rock
Triple H vs. Austin
Triple H vs. Shawn

Did Flair and Steamboat have great matches? Absolutely, but three great matches in three months doesn't account for the rest of an 18 year career. That's my biggest problem with that feud, Steamboat never had a great main event feud with anyone else. He had a few midcard feuds in early 90's WCW, but other than Flair in 89 and Savage in 87, he doesn't have one other legendary feud. You can't really uses the excuses that Steamboat and Flair had one of a kind chemistry. Flair had legendary feuds before and after 89. Steamboat didn't.

He Was An Amazing Wrestler
He was certainly great for his time, if not even ahead of it. However, there are many wrestlers who's in ring skill was just as good, if not better, than Steamboat's. Here are a few:

Shawn Michaels
Ric Flair
Kurt Angle
Chris Jericho
Chris Benoit
Eddie Guerrero
Kurt Angle
A J Styles
Sting
Bret Hart
Owen Hart
Dean Malenko
Brock Lesnar
Dynamite Kid

Again, you can't be selective in what you cherish from the past. 30 years ago Bob Backlund would have been considered one of the greatest wrestlers of all time. Today he wouldn't be on anyone's top 10 list. Steamboat was often considered to be a great high flyer, but he would hardly be considered spectacular compared to someone like Mysterio or A J Styles.

He Was Able To Stay A Face His Entire Career
This is true, but he didn't really do anything with it. He had three months on top in the smaller company. There were lots of guys in the 80's and 90's who were just as popular Steamboat. He certainly wasn't spectacular on the mic, and he didn't sell much merchandise. All of this things have to be taken into consideration when calling someone one of the all time greats.

Other Points
That covers most of the main Steamboat points, but their are a few other things that need to be addressed. Steamboat never really established himself anywhere. He spent the prime years of his career bouncing between companies. Shortly after becoming IC champ he asked for time off because his son was about to be born. I certainly won't criticize the man for wanting to be with his family, but it forced him to drop his title lose his push. He then quite the WWF over it. I don't blame the man for wanting to be with his wife and son, but he had to realize being off TV for a few months was going to hurt his momentum. Especially in the days when people held on to belts for long periods of time. He then went to WCW/NWA and had his feud with Flair. While a top player in the company, he didn't like his contract and left shortly after losing the belt back to Flair. He was actually only in WCW/NWA for about six months total during 89. He then went back to WWF in 1991 for a cup of coffee and quite them again after 5 months of being undefeated on TV. He spent the last three years of his career in WCW before injury forced him to retire. Now he certainly has the right to do whatever he wants with his career, but it's hard to be remembered as a legend when your constantly switching companies and don't have long term success anywhere.

A lot of people say that Steamboat could have done a lot more if his career hadn't been cut short by injury. I don't really believe this. While Steamboat was still good in the ring at the time of his injury, he was 41 and firmly in the mid card. Even if he hadn't gotten hurt, I just don't see his baby face character doing much in his mid 40's during the NWO and Attitude Era's in wrestling.

Final Thoughts
I like Ricky Steamboat. He was a great wrestler and one of the bigger names of the 80's. However, their are lots of guys that fit that description. My main problem with Steamboat is that he's know for a total of four matches in this career. One with Savage and three with Flair. They were all great matches, but that alone doesn't make you an all time great. Almost any other wrestler that people consider to be a legend has at least a dozen different amazing matches that people instantly think of. They would certainly have more than two great feuds people could think of off the top of their head. In the end, I think Steamboat is a legend and deserving of his spot in the Hall of Fame. However, I just don't think he has done enough to be considered one of the all time greats in professional wrestling.

 

[The_Gene_Genie]

An interesting and brave post, but a good one nonetheless.

Opinions on wrestlers vary dependant on the age and preferences of the fans watching. That's what makes this forum and debates like these successful.

My first experiences of Ricky Steamboat were with that horrible WWF inspired Dragon gimmick, with the man wearing a horrible dragon themed costume and breathing fire before his matches. Now at the time I thought it was cool. But the older I got and the more understanding I had of the world of wrestling and started to develop my own tastes and preferences, I could see that it was indeed pants.

But your question was 'Is the legacy of Ricky Steamboat overrated?' Well, does he deserve his legacy? I'm going to say yes.

A lot of what we do with debates like these is look back with hindsight and make comparisons to the wrestling product back in the day to that which we are subjected to today. To make that comparison in my eyes is unfair. Wrestling back in the 80's and even longer before that era was a totally different product to that which we watch regularly on our televisions today. At the time matches like Savage and Steamboat at Wrestlemania III were innovative and helped pave the way and the in ring styles of many a wrestler. Those more modern performers have taken the styles developed by the likes of Steamboat and taken them to a whole new level. A lot is harped on about how the older guys pathed the way for the new generation of wrestlers and about respect, and in some instances this really grips my s**t. But Ricky Steamboat was an inspirational performer, respected by his peers, colleagues and even the younger generation, both in and out of the ring. I often question whether the older performers, in their prime, could perform with the more risque and extreme wrestlers of recent history. That's for another debate.

You say that you don't believe Steamboat would have done much more in his career if it hadn't been cut short through injury. I beg to differ. I think he would have stayed a solid upper tier star within the mid-card at the very least, although a lot of success depends on booking and writing behind the scenes. He proved that even in his later years he could hang with and out perform the young guns, as displayed in his more recent matches against the younger Chris Jericho. Those performances came after nearly 15 years out of the ring. The chants of "You've still got it!" said it all really.

He does deserve his place in the Hall of Fame as you've agreed. But to be a Hall of Fame inductee, you must have some sort of legacy to even be considered (Koko B. Ware still bemuses me). The matches you've highlighted are arguably his best known in ring performances. Although you have omitted his other classic feuds with the likes of Jake Roberts, and his earlier tag team performances alongside Jay Youngblood. There is more to the man than a handful of performances, but that is down to individual and personal interpretation.

 

[luxferre]

When i saw the title i was ready to scream blue murder, but your well laid out argument really got me thinking and it's tough to disagree.

Would like to see more profile's laid out and questioned. Good work TUFFY54

 

[Agent J]

A wonderfully laid out topic that i must agree with. This topic would be great to turn into a series of posts on other wrestlers both new and old to determine their worthiness of their hype.

 

[MillionDollarMan]

I gave you rep for this post because it was so well thought out and detailed. Great job.

That said, I don't believe Steamboat's legacy or career have been overrated. He was one of the first wrestlers to show what a combination of mat wrestling and high-flying wrestling could do to excite a crowd. He pushed the limit which allowed teams like the Rockers to come to the WWE and an entirely new generation of human sized wrestlers to succeed in the land of giants.

Steamboat the wrestler rarely had a gimmick that accentuated his wrestling abilities as they preferred to play up his ethnicity. He had to work in those abilities within the construct of his character. Did he do this successfully to become regarded as a great wrestler?

Steamboat also, as you stated, restricted his own push multiple times due to injury or family. I cannot begrudge him for this any more than I can hold Terrell Davis' injuries in football from him becoming a Hall of Famer. You can only judge a man by how he performed in the era he was in and for however long he wrestled. Using these considerations, he was one of the best of his era. He helped advance wrestling into a form with Flair where others like Henning, Hart, Michaels, Benoit, Angle could succeed. His legacy is secure.

Now If you want to debate where he belongs on the totem pole of greatest pure wrestlers, that would be a fun post.

 

[Rampage Bentley]

"Overrated" is a very perspective thing, it relies not so much of the greatness of the individual in question, but the level of adoration given compared to level of greatness.

For example I think, hands down bar none, the most overrated wrestler of all time is Ric Flair. Not to say he wasn't good but the amount of praise he gets compared to his actual skills and abilities just doesn't match up.

I don't think Ricky Steamboat is overrated. It's true that he didn't have tons and tons of great feuds or matches, but you also have to realize that he was midcard for most of his career, and on top of that for some reason or another he never really crossed paths with Mr. Perfect, Rick Rude, or Ted Dibiase (he had matches and mini stuff here and there, but nothing extended or substantial.)

 

[legendkiller1979]

Ricky Steamboat is proof that wrestling talent is third on the priority list for getting over.
The first two being having a great character and/or being able to talk. The fact that you say that mania 3 was good for 1987 says to me that you weren't born when the match took place. Your list of matches that are better is pathetic. Anything involving a ladder is not better because the participants needed a prop to make the match good. Flair and Savage moved at a snail's pace, there wasn't any part of that match that can be considered classic. The Austin/Rock matches are considered so good because of who's involved. I'm not saying they weren't good, I'm just saying they don't hold a candle to Savage/Steamboat. There are some good matches on there but they aren't nearly as exciting. The match was so fast from beginning to end. There were many near falls to add to the excitement.

So my question is this. What makes an exciting match? Somebody risking their safety and possibly getting hurt? I would give your thread some credit but you said it yourself.
You started watching Steamboat when the WWF didn't even acknowledge his name.
he was simply the dragon.

I'm sure the next post will be that Hulk Hogan, the man responsible for wrestlemania and putting wrestling on the map, was good by 1987 standards but is completely overrated.

 

[UltimateHitman]

Sorry, Tuffy, think this is the first time I've disagreed w/one of your positions. Don't hate me now...

I have to disagree about Steamboat, as well as disagree w/the concept in general. You can't take away from accomplishments on the past simply because of logical progression. Ricky Steamboat was actively wrestling during the times cited. That was his prime, and to bring up people in a different time and place in the future that had not even been an idea or thought in people's heads just doesn't work.

It's kind of the same in all kinds of different areas of life. What about vehicles? You really can't compare the 50's and 60's classic automobiles to today's standards of technology. But you acknowledge the innovations they may have had at the time and they still definitely have worth and are still talked about.

Or what about movies, for that matter? You can say that with the different special effects present these days, the old movies aren't as good as people say. You could compare a movie like, oh, I don't know, the Wizard of Oz to Lord of the Rings. Sure, Wizard of Oz was innovative for that time but now why even bother acknowledging it since we have all the CGI, etc. technology of today? Why would people even still like it? Why would they still talk about how great it is when we've seen so much better since then?

What about Snuka? Does he deserve to be an afterthought because people are now doing suicide moonsaults off of Titantrons instead of just a splash off a cage? That's a crazy idea because, at the time, it was innovative and something that hadn't been done yet, i.e. memorable. Hogan? Yeah, sure he was charismatic and such, but now we have Cena who has charisma and can run circles around Hogan in-ring so let's just say he doesn't deserve his legacy anymore either. AWA, WCW, etc? They didn't stand the test of time, and were only big during a certain time, do we say they don't deserve their legacy because WWE has proven to be so much better and longer lasting? Last analogy is Babe Ruth. His records have been broken, there have been much better players and careers now. Heck, sports historians tout the 1927 Yankees line up. Should they just say "meh" about his contributions to his sport or dismiss what they consider one of the best team lineups because he's now just another ball player or they are now just another team in a long list of teams?

I also agree w/the above statement that he came back into the ring after doing nothing in it for many years to put on a 5 star match w/Jericho when even most of the talent they had on the roster couldn't have worked a match that good.

It's simply illogical to say that since things have changed after many, many years of technological advancement and many different changes in the business (and the world in general) that a person does not deserve the attention he or she gets for their accomplishments based on today's market or position. It was memorable many years after the fact based on the impact and mass enjoyment it created, and still creates (even if the impact is a little lower than it was in its heyday). Does this mean that years from now, when they have another "phenom" and he does things that Undertaker never did, or would have never thought of doing, in the ring that we dismiss Mark Calloway as "just another big man wrestler" who doesn't deserve his legacy?

 

[Hulk Hogan's Brother]

I think that when you are talking about the legacy of an individual you have to take into account the time period in which the superstar was active. Yes he was not a great mic worker, he was never the face of any company and he was never a heel but yet I have no hesitation in stating that Steamboat is one of the top 30 competitors of all time. In the period in which he competed, it was not neccesary for a wrestler to have great in ring skills or play a good face as well as a good heel to be considered a great wrestler.

As for making a case against the Flair vs Steamboat rivalry or the number of his great matches, it's something that can be done for any wrestler or for any rivalry. For example you have mentioned that Bret vs Shawn was a better rivalry. I can easily say that it was just an average rivalry on screen that has been overrated over the years by wrestling fans because of the personal differences between the two guys. I mean they also had just 3 matches. In the first of those in 1992 the winner was never in doubt while in the Ironman match was boring and nobody remembers anything about the Survivor Series match other than the controversial ending.

Also Steamboat had great matches in WCW in the 90's with the likes of Rick Rude and a young Steve Austin and Great Muta among others. It's all a part of his legacy. His matches with Savage and Flair are his best known matches and feuds but they aren't his only contribution to wrestling. That's a bit like saying that the Austin/ McMahon feud is the only thing Austin did for wrestling. That's his most known feud but you cannot say that that is the only thing Austin ever did. Everything that Austin did right from WCW to ECW and finally WWF is a part of his career.

In short, I'd like to say that the case you made for Steamboat can be made for any wrestler if someone wants to. The thing is Steamboat was a great wrestler who has contributed quite a lot to wrestling with more than just four great matches and more than just a couple of feuds and can be very easily considered as an all time great.

 

[TUFFY54]

Ricky Steamboat is proof that wrestling talent is third on the priority list for getting over.
The first two being having a great character and/or being able to talk. The fact that you say that mania 3 was good for 1987 says to me that you weren't born when the match took place. Your list of matches that are better is pathetic. Anything involving a ladder is not better because the participants needed a prop to make the match good. Flair and Savage moved at a snail's pace, there wasn't any part of that match that can be considered classic. The Austin/Rock matches are considered so good because of who's involved. I'm not saying they weren't good, I'm just saying they don't hold a candle to Savage/Steamboat. There are some good matches on there but they aren't nearly as exciting. The match was so fast from beginning to end. There were many near falls to add to the excitement.

So my question is this. What makes an exciting match? Somebody risking their safety and possibly getting hurt? I would give your thread some credit but you said it yourself.
You started watching Steamboat when the WWF didn't even acknowledge his name.
he was simply the dragon.

I'm sure the next post will be that Hulk Hogan, the man responsible for wrestlemania and putting wrestling on the map, was good by 1987 standards but is completely overrated.

Yeah, I was born when that match happened. Your response is very short sided. I listed about 23 matches that I thought were as good as Savage-Steamboat, but you pointed out 3 that you disagreed with and called the list pathetic. Maybe you don't agree with a few of them, but I don't see how you can call HBK-Taker, Austin-Hart, and HBK-Hart pathetic matches. I also don't remember saying I started watching wrestling when he was simply The Dragon. I remember going to Vision Video and renting the Chi Town Heat tape as soon as it came out.

Your certainly entitled to your opinion, but the only thing I have a problem with is what you said about Hogan. I clearly pointed in the thread the difference between Steamboat and guys like Hogan and Flair. I'll say it again. To this day, arguably only one person (Austin) has ever been more popular than Hogan. I personally don't think anyone has been better on the mic than Ric Flair. Many matches have been as good or better than Savage-Steamboat. Hell, I put Hogan-Andre at the top of the list because it was the biggest match of the 80's.

Plus, you can probably look at the picture next to my name and tell that I'm not about to call Hogan overrated.

 

[The Brain]

CALM DOWN. TAKE A DEEP BREATH. JUST HEAR ME OUT.

I want to talk about legacy of Ricky Steamboat. Steamboat is a legend in pro wrestling. He is a WWE Hall of Fame member and considered to be one of the greatest wrestlers of all time. I'm not really sure I agree with that last part. Steamboat certainly had great in ring skills and was popular for sure. But I just don't think that qualifies him for the legacy he is given. Lets take a look at a few of the things that come to mind with Ricky Steamboat.

I think Steamboat is very deserving of the legacy he has. He is considered one of the greatest in ring workers of his time. It's hard to argue against that. I never hear anyone comparing him to Hogan, Rock, or Austin in terms in popularity or drawing power. Nobody ever says Steamboat is the reason tickets or ppvs were sold. Nobody ever credits Steamboat for the financial success of a promotion. They recognize his ability to put on a great match, which he usually did.

He had a great match with Randy Savage at Wrestlemania 3
This is one of the two main things that people think of when they think of Steamboat. I've seen the match many times. It was fast paced, high flying, and a great match in 1987. Many people proclaimed it one of the best matches in the history of Wrestlemania, and it was for a few years. The thing that you have to remember about that match was that it was amazing for 87. It was one of the first technical, high flying, matches of its kind in the WWE, but many, many, Wrestlemania matches have been better. Here are a few:

Hogan vs. Andre (say what you want, it sold 90,000 tickets)
Flair vs. Savage
Razor Ramon vs. Shawn Michaels
Bret vs. Owen
Bret vs. Shawn
Bret vs. Austin
Undertaker vs. Kane
Austin vs. Rock I, II, and III
Austin vs. Shawn
TLC I and II
Angle vs. Benoit
Hogan vs. Rock (not a masterpiece, but almost no match since has had that excitement)
Shawn Michaels vs. Jericho
Angle vs. Lesnar
Benoit vs. Michaels vs. Triple H
Kurt Angle vs. Michaels
Money In The Bank
Shawn Michaels vs. Ric Flair
Shawn vs. Undertaker I and II

When compared to the others, Steamboat vs. Savage was just one in a number of great matches at Wrestlemania. You have to be fair in judging the past. That match was great for its time, but its time is long gone. Many people might think that's a stupid way to look at it, but it's the way we look at everything else in wrestling. For example, 30 years ago Bruno Sammartino and Pedro Morales would unquestionably be considered two of the greatest world champions of all time. Today, I've never seen them on anyone's top ten list. It's the same with looking at a match from 24 years ago. Some people might think there's a flaw in this logic because we still talk about how great Hogan and Flair were from the same time period. I disagree. We still talk about Hogan because, to this day, he's popularity has been surpassed by almost no one. We still talk about Flair because the promo's he gave 25 years ago are still some of the greatest promo's anyone has ever given. Savage and Steamboat had a great match, but it has been surpassed many times over.

I know the forum is for posting opinions, but you seem to be presenting your list of better matches as fact. It's all subjective. In my opinion Steamboat vs. Savage was a better match than many that you've listed.

His Feud With Ric Flair in 1989
This is the other main thing that people think of when the think of Steamboat. Steamboat beat Flair of the title, retained in the rematch, and lost the belt back to Flair in the third match. All three matches were classics. No one has ever said otherwise. The odd thing about it was that this epic feud only lasted three months. Many people call this the greatest rivalry ever, but it only last three matches. Anyone will tell you that Flair was Steamboats greatest opponent, but it would be hard to say the same for Flair. Flair has had amazing feuds with all the top names in wrestling. Other than Flair and Savage, can anyone think of another great feud Steamboat had? None seem to come to mind. Their have been many feuds better than the one Flair and Steamboat had. Here are a few:

Austin vs. Rock
Shawn vs. Undertaker
Lesnar vs. Angle
Benoit vs. Angle
NWO vs. WCW
Austin vs. McMahon
Hogan vs. Sting
Bret vs. Shawn
Sting vs. Flair
Dusty vs. Flair
Sting vs. Vader
Hogan vs. Flair
Hogan vs. Piper
Bret vs. Austin
Triple H vs. Rock
Triple H vs. Austin
Triple H vs. Shawn

Did Flair and Steamboat have great matches? Absolutely, but three great matches in three months doesn't account for the rest of an 18 year career. That's my biggest problem with that feud, Steamboat never had a great main event feud with anyone else. He had a few midcard feuds in early 90's WCW, but other than Flair in 89 and Savage in 87, he doesn't have one other legendary feud. You can't really uses the excuses that Steamboat and Flair had one of a kind chemistry. Flair had legendary feuds before and after 89. Steamboat didn't.

My previous comments about applies here too. In my opinion Steamboat vs. Flair was a better feud than some of the ones you've listed. By the way, Ric Flair himself has called Steamboat his best opponent ever. They also feuded in the 70s, early 80s, and had a couple matches in the 90s.

He Was An Amazing Wrestler
He was certainly great for his time, if not even ahead of it. However, there are many wrestlers who's in ring skill was just as good, if not better, than Steamboat's. Here are a few:

Shawn Michaels
Ric Flair
Kurt Angle
Chris Jericho
Chris Benoit
Eddie Guerrero
Kurt Angle
A J Styles
Sting
Bret Hart
Owen Hart
Dean Malenko
Brock Lesnar
Dynamite Kid

Again, you can't be selective in what you cherish from the past. 30 years ago Bob Backlund would have been considered one of the greatest wrestlers of all time. Today he wouldn't be on anyone's top 10 list. Steamboat was often considered to be a great high flyer, but he would hardly be considered spectacular compared to someone like Mysterio or A J Styles.

I don't know that any of the guys you listed deserve to be ranked ahead of Steamboat. During his time Steamboat always put on the best match of the night. His combination of mat wrestling, martial arts, and high flying was innovative and Steamboat never disappointed. He sold better than anybody. When Steamboat was receiving punishment you really believed it. He was great at getting sympathy from the crowd which made his comeback more exciting.

He Was Able To Stay A Face His Entire Career
This is true, but he didn't really do anything with it. He had three months on top in the smaller company. There were lots of guys in the 80's and 90's who were just as popular Steamboat. He certainly wasn't spectacular on the mic, and he didn't sell much merchandise. All of this things have to be taken into consideration when calling someone one of the all time greats.

Staying face for an entire career is pretty unique. Not many can make that claim. Keep in mind the Hulk Hogan, the most popular wrestler ever, turned heel because the fans were turning against him. The fans never turned on Steamboat. They never tired of him.

That covers most of the main Steamboat points, but their are a few other things that need to be addressed. Steamboat never really established himself anywhere. He spent the prime years of his career bouncing between companies. Shortly after becoming IC champ he asked for time off because his son was about to be born. I certainly won't criticize the man for wanting to be with his family, but it forced him to drop his title lose his push. He then quite the WWF over it. I don't blame the man for wanting to be with his wife and son, but he had to realize being off TV for a few months was going to hurt his momentum. Especially in the days when people held on to belts for long periods of time. He then went to WCW/NWA and had his feud with Flair. While a top player in the company, he didn't like his contract and left shortly after losing the belt back to Flair. He was actually only in WCW/NWA for about six months total during 89. He then went back to WWF in 1991 for a cup of coffee and quite them again after 5 months of being undefeated on TV. He spent the last three years of his career in WCW before injury forced him to retire. Now he certainly has the right to do whatever he wants with his career, but it's hard to be remembered as a legend when your constantly switching companies and don't have long term success anywhere.
A lot of people say that Steamboat could have done a lot more if his career hadn't been cut short by injury. I don't really believe this. While Steamboat was still good in the ring at the time of his injury, he was 41 and firmly in the mid card. Even if he hadn't gotten hurt, I just don't see his baby face character doing much in his mid 40's during the NWO and Attitude Era's in wrestling.

I agree Steamboat probably wouldn't have done much more if his career continued. He probably wouldn't have fit well in the attitude era or nwo era. That doesn't take away what he did accomplish during his active years.

Final Thoughts
I like Ricky Steamboat. He was a great wrestler and one of the bigger names of the 80's. However, their are lots of guys that fit that description. My main problem with Steamboat is that he's know for a total of four matches in this career. One with Savage and three with Flair. They were all great matches, but that alone doesn't make you an all time great. Almost any other wrestler that people consider to be a legend has at least a dozen different amazing matches that people instantly think of. They would certainly have more than two great feuds people could think of off the top of their head. In the end, I think Steamboat is a legend and deserving of his spot in the Hall of Fame. However, I just don't think he has done enough to be considered one of the all time greats in professional wrestling.

When questioning Steamboat's legacy it's important to know what his legacy is. He is looked at as one of the greatest in ring performers of his generation. That's nearly impossible to argue. No one said he sold tickets like Hogan. No one ever said he sold merchandise like Austin. No one ever said he controled the crowd like Rock. He is recognized as an excellent in ring performer because that's what he was.

 

[THTRobtaylor]

A good argument, but I have to say he isn't overrated at all...

The list of matches you give are all considered good matches, but WM3 is considered by most people in the wrestling business to be in the top 3 matches... not just fans. Steamboat said in an interview recently he DID ask to be heel and to go against Hogan but due to timing it never came off.

Steamboat's dropkick is still one of the best ever, his armdrag has never been bettered... His in ring execution is easily still in the top 10 of all time.

Some people will say that Steamboat wasn't on top long enough... it's immaterial, the fact he was on top at all in those days is telling as so few people got a World or IC title reign. Compare it to today where everyone and their dog gets a title reign at least once and you have a real legacy.

 

[pyrusane]

I am going to list two reasons why Ricky Steamboat is not over-rated that will address two of your reasons why he is.

The WrestleMania 3 match with Randy Savage isn't just considered one of the greatest matches of all time by fans, but also by the wrestlers themselves. You have to consider what professional wrestling was like back in 1987. That match wasn't just a great match, it changed the way matches were wrestled. The psychology and story-telling in that match, while formulaic by today's standards, was fresh and new at that time. In fact, you could say that this one match wrote the formula that is so commonplace today. I met Steamboat recently, and during the brief conversation I had with him he mentioned that that one match is the match that he is asked about most often, not by fans, but by the young wrestlers backstage. As he put it, if there had been a manual for how to go out and have a great match, Steamboat and Savage threw out that manual and wrote a new one that night.

The Ric Flair feud. I think this is part of the reason that someone questioned your age in an earlier post. Steamboat's feud with Flair in 89 isn't the "classic" Steamboat-Flair rivalry that everyone talks about when they discuss his career. That short feud was the revival of a rivalry that they continued for eight years in the Mid-Atlantic region that eventually became WCW. They feuded from 1977-1984, prior to Steamboat going to the then WWF. In fact, Flair was recently on the local sports radio show here in Charlotte talking about the Bobcats and Nascar, and one of the hosts asked him what his favorite match and favorite opponent of his career was. His favorite match was the retirement match against HBK, his favorite opponent was Ricky Steamboat during any of their feuds. This is from Flair himself.

Steamboat's legacy is not just drawn from the impact he had on his fans, but also the impact he had on his peers, and in the business itself.

 

[UnBEARaBULLfan]

Awsome thread, Ricky Steamboat has always been a favorite of mine but you bring up alot of valid points, I think you have to consider him one of the greats for his time late 70's the 80's and early 90's wrestling has changed so much sence those years and so have the qualities of what makes a great match so for his time no I wouldn't consider him overrated, plus there is more to his fued with Ric Flair than just those three months they have had a long history with each other dateing back before he ever went to wwf/e they fueded over the united states title and I think they were tag partners at one time, and if I recall he had a good fued with Don Muraco.

 

[Tech N9ne]

Ricky

Steamboat

Overrated

I never thought I would hear (read) those words in a serious post. I am not going to rip the OP because to be honest, I respect the balls it takes to make such a bold statement. Plus, everyone has an opinion and is MORE than entitled to it.

Normally, when a post pisses me off, I would write a 100 paragraph post backing up my particular opinion on the topic and back it up with facts explaining my side.

But, when it comes to this, I think it is much easier to state my opinion by getting right to the point.

The Dragon's legacy is simple. He is known for being fantastic in the ring. He was an innovator and could hang with anyone. Including the guy that is considered by most to be the best ever in the ring, Ric Flair.

Steamboat will not go down as the biggest draw ever. Though, it should be noted that if he would have been in the WWF when he was battling Flair, he might have been a bigger draw than what he became in the NWA. The guy was not just a high flyer, he was great all around and more than anything, could tell a story while in the ring. He was, in my opinion, GREAT on the mic as well. He had/has a tremendous amount of charisma and doesn't get enough credit for that.

I think if anything, Steamboat if underrated. He had every tool possibly to be one of the biggest stars ever. Though he did made a return to WWE in the early 90's, I do not think he was used right. He had a stupid costume and was blowing fire. I think they went way overboard with his "Dragon" gimmick. I feel like he wasn't taken serious enough when he came back. But, the WWF was known for doing that to guys that would come over from WCW or NWA. Guys like Steamboat, Dusty Rhodes, Tully Blanchard and many more were kind of made into different characters then what they were generally known for.

The OP was a good post, I can't deny that. But I do NOT agree with it at all.

 

[byrnside]

Nothing personal. Good thread that's gotten some people talking, but I absolutely have a hard time agreeing with any of this. As The Brain said, most of the stuff you listed doesn't necessarily rank any higher than anything particular of Steamboat's because it's speculation and opinion. Say what you will about his match with Savage at 'Mania III, it is still one of the best matches I have ever seen. The pace they kept up in that match could still rival most matches or wrestlers today given the same amount of time and build up.

 

[The Crock]

No way dude, not a chance. Steamboat is a legend. Steamboat is an innovator. He deserves every single damn bit of praise he gets. It's sad to think that a guy that did that much for the business can actually even be close to considered "overrated." Especially since Steamboat literally did stuff that nobody had ever done before. Steamboat was different, he didn't fit the mold of that "traditional" wrestler, but he used it to his advantage. That's probably what makes him so good, the fact that he was just so out there compared to anything else going on during his time. He was actually probably years AHEAD of his time.

 

[Coco]

Yes, Steamboat is horrendously overrated. That's not to say that I don't like Steamboat, but the masses at large worship at his alter because of less than a handful of classic matches. Most people who go out of their way to praise him these days haven't the faintest idea who Ricky Steamboat was beyond three matches with Ric Flair and a huge blow off with Randy Savage. When most people's off the top of their head knowledge of a wrestler is limited to four matches total yet he receives ubiquitous praise, I don't see how anyone can suggest he's rated properly. People's ignorance about him prevents that from being possible. I'm absolutely with this. People have been toeing the smark line on Steamboat for years, but I simply can't abide by it when most people don't know enough about him to be worthy of a voice in this conversation. He's a legend, but he's not rated anywhere near where he should be.

 

[FunKay the Inevitable]

Yes Ricky Steamboat is overrated. Ricky is one of the best ring performers there ever was, but the man wasn't the complete package. He could wrestle, but he lacked the overall ability to catapult him into mega-stardom, that's why he was more often than not left in the midcard, except for the Flair series. Ricky's also overrated, like Coco said, because people have practically zero knowledge of his outside of his series with Flair and the WrestleMania 3 match. People aren't really aware of Steamboat's other runs, either in WWF or in WCW/NWA, and while that's a shame, it's also the conclusive proof that Steamboat is overrated.

 

[Calderownz]

Well thought out. However, I simply think you're wrong.

ACCOMPLISHMENTS:
- First (if not, one of the very first) Asian-American World Heavyweight Champions.
- WWE Hall Of Famer (2009).
- Worked his entire career as a babyface (virtually, anyway).
- Professional Wrestling Hall Of Fame (2002).
- SEVERAL Match Of The Year winners and candidates.
- WCW/NWA Grand Slam Champion. (World, United States, Television, Tag Team.)
- Mid-Atlantic Heavyweight Champion.
- Over a decade at or near the top.

Now, that alone is a solid list of accomplishments. However, you also have to give him credit for some of the things that he got done that are harder to document. He was a innovative, graceful worker that helped revolutionize the way that slicker workers worked.

He also got all of this done while taking a lot of time off for creative differences and body building. He also had to technically retire earlier than he had expected. Still, having gotten all of that done.

Classic matches with Ric Flair and Randy Savage. Not to mention Jake Roberts and Tully Blanchard. He also was involved in a great tag team that feuded with the Brisco Brothers and the Anderson's in some great matches. Hard to be a great singles and tag partner and he got that done.

Was also pretty big in Japan and feuded with The Great Muta, involving some good matches as well. With all this talk about how great Shawn Michaels is at WrestleMania, the best match at all is possibly Steamboat-Savage at WM III.

Pretty hard to overrate that.

EDIT: Let's not forget two of the most important things of all. Fans loved him and his work and wrestlers talk about him like a God. If the workers think this highly of him, it's a bit hard to disagree. I defy someone to show me a wrestler that would say something bad about the man, PERIOD, let alone about his in-ring work.

 

[Coco]

Well thought out. However, I simply think you're wrong.

ACCOMPLISHMENTS:
- First (if not, one of the very first) Asian-American World Heavyweight Champions.
- WWE Hall Of Famer (2009).
- Worked his entire career as a babyface (virtually, anyway).
- Professional Wrestling Hall Of Fame (2002).
- SEVERAL Match Of The Year winners and candidates.
- WCW/NWA Grand Slam Champion. (World, United States, Television, Tag Team.)
- Mid-Atlantic Heavyweight Champion.
- Over a decade at or near the top.

Who gives a fuck? In listing this stuff, you're clearly missing the point.

Being one of the very first Asian-American World Heavyweight Champions isn't something the majority of people judge Steamboat on. Nor is his induction into multiple Hall of Fames, his runs with midcard and tag belts, his run with a territories top title, or his longevity. Most people judge him on four matches and then proceed to call him one of the all time greats. Even if it were true that Steamboat is an all-time great, people's declarations of such coupled with the ignorance the masses have regarding Steamboat is what makes him overrated. I couldn't give a fuck less what accomplishments of his you list because those change nothing. To think they do is to be taking part in a different conversation than that which his just detractors are having.

 

[longlivetheBrood]

I think that other wrestlers' opinion of Steamboat makes him worthy of his legendary status and reputation as a great worker and performer. However, I will say this, at the time I viewed Steamboat vs. Savage at WMIII as the best match ever and I saw it that way for years to come. Upon re-watching it more recently though I see it in a different light, which is to say that it was big at the time because it was the culmination of the face chasing the heel's title and it was exciting because of a few high-flying spots and dozens of two-counts (near falls). Matches nowadays have what seems like endless two-counts and its par for the course, the same with the high-flying spots. His matches with Flair in the late '80s/early '90s were amazing, I'll give you that, but they seemed short-lived and the fued felt like it was unfinished to me. In the end though, his ability to come back after...what...12 or so years away from the ring and perform to the level that he did was a-m-a-z-i-n-g. He put on a hell of a show, overshadowing many of the people in that match and going miles above anything the current Legends do in the ring.

 

[fraserbee]

I first started watching American wrestling in late 89 - just after Steamboat had left WCW, however I was a huge WCW fan during his final run with the company from 1991 to 1994 and was amazed the sheer number of really good matches he had with so many different opponents. Ones that spring to mind for me would be Steamboat vs Austin, Vader, Rude, Orndorff, Cactus, Regal, Flair and Scott Steiner. In fact his matches with Rude from Superbrawl II and Beach Blast 92 are two of my all time favourites.

In later years I've been able to see much more of his earlier work, both in the NWA and WWF and it has been a career and sure enough there are tons of very good Steamboat matches against all manner of opponents both in singles and as a tagteam with Jay Youngblood.

It is hard to think of a wrestler with the exception of Flair, who has such a large body of very good matches with so many opponents over such a long time period.

As great as he was in the ring however, his character was such that Steamboat was never a consistent main eventer. He also put his family before wrestling on at least three occasions, stepping away from the spotlight when it was beginning to shine on him very brightly, in 84, 87 and 89. Does this take away from his 'greatness'? I would say no. There are many examples of wrestlers who were fantastic in the ring and who should be recognised for that even though they never really sat fully in a main event throne. Guys like Owen Hart, Dynamite Kid, Chris Benoit, Eddie Guerrero, Brian Pillman, Bobby Eaton, Barry Windham and the list goes on and on. Steamboat is at least as good as these guys and so, in my mind, deserves to be labelled an all time great.

 

[CRob44]

he is what he is. Not a top 20 wrestler but a very good all around wrestler. If he was in his prime now he would be wwe champion for sure.

 

[FitFinlay4Life]

A simple reason why I disagree, I only saw the matches you mentioned in the last couple of years and yet Rick was already one of my favourites all time. American wrestling wasn't covered in the UK, we had World of Sport. When people tired of comedy champ Big Daddy beating people with his belly, the WWF made a short run on terrestrial TV - I stopped watching, Hogan's superhero schtick didn't feel great when I'd watched guys like Mark Rocco and Dave Finlay. Then Rupert Murdock started Sky, bought the rights to WWF and ITV lost Saturday afternoon wrestling... but no, they started showing NWA/ WCW and here was a show that was less razzle dazzle and inflated physiques - I became a fan. My greatest memories of a Dragon feud either directly or indirectly involved Steve Austin, whether it was feuding with the Dangerous Alliance (featuring Austin), the Hollywood Blonds (featuring Austin) or just straight out one on one with Austin.

[YOUTUBE]Qm8anSG0ceE[/YOUTUBE]
[YOUTUBE]Mmq68rq8aOE&feature=related[/YOUTUBE]​

I've never quite figured out why Austin's legacy as a wrestler only covers his Stone Cold era, he had sterling matches in WCW and just because Easy E was to short sighted to see it doesn't mean that we have to be as well. I would imagine that, if he was asked, Steve would give Ricky great plaudits for helping his development - the matches between the two must have been a great set up for facing guys like Bret and Shawn.