Is Modern Hardcore/Garbage Wrestling Too Much?

[thecruiser]

Hardcore/Garbage wrestling has been in existence since the late 80s/early 90s. It originated from Japan and Mexico's extreme deathmatches that pulled in audiences in from around the world. When Paul Heyman discovered it and used it to turn Eastern Championship Wrestling to Extreme Championship Wrestling, it brought a whole new side of wrestling to the US and Canada.

Although it mostly had hardcore, Anywhere Falls, and barbed wire matches, it also focused on the great technical wrestlers from around the world. It shot names like Chris Jericho, Chris Benoit, Eddy Guerrero, and Rey Misterio Jr. to the big leagues of WCW and WWE.

Stealing talent from ECW gave WWE and WCW the opportunity to create their own Hardcore divisions, but were eventually turned into jokes. Finally, when the WWE bought ECW and WCW, mainstream hardcore wrestling was slowly phased out. Until XPW came along.

XPW was run by porn actress Lizzy Borden and porn distributor Rob Black. It incorporated brutal violence into the matches, which included light tubes, barbed wire, fire, and HUGE high spots. Since the former ECW wrestlers had no jobs, most of them were hired by XPW to give the promotion a "big-name" feel.

When the promotion folded due to obscenity lawsuits on Borden and Black's porn distribution company Extreme Associates, many of the XPW stars were left without jobs. So many of them moved to Combat Zone Wrestling.

CZW was started in 1999 by John Zandig, Nick Gage, Lobo, Rick Blade, and Justice Pain. CZW called their style of hardcore wrestling "Ultraviolent". However, they are like ECW in that while a lot of their matches are "Ultraviolent", they also have many technical wrestling matches on their cards. CZW's hardcore matches are different though; some are very disturbing. An example is a video I saw of CZW's Tournament of Death 3 between Sexxxy Eddy and The Arsenal, where they threw each other into several hundred light tubes. At the end of the match, the two men were COVERED in blood, but Sexxxy Eddy got the worst of it - he sliced an artery in his arm, but instead of going to the hospital, he began to drink the blood. Now, I've seen some gross stuff (2girls1cup or BME Pain Olympics, anyone?), but that was extremely disgusting. Please share your thoughts on MODERN hardcore/garbage wrestling and if you think it has gone too far as of late.

 

[blackhart07]

Ya i agree Modern harcore/garbage wrestling is to much. Its not even really wrestling anymore just some guy throwing another person threw 1932098 lightubes thats not wrestling. The way ECW (except for a few ex. New jack) alot of the wrestlers used the hardcore style and still used actually wrestling moves. Like Rob Van Dam, Taz, Rhyno, Sabu, Cactus Jack. All those guys could still put on a hell of a match without using weapons. Like when XPW had those scaffold matches its not wrestling if New Jack throws Grimes off it. That just a crazy guy willing to take a huge bump. Even when MTV had that promotion Wrestling Society X it was complete BS i remember watching some show where some guy had his head dumped in a tank with paranas. Some good Hardcore matches i like that still stay true to wrestling are Kurt Angle/ Shane Mcmahon KOTR 2001, Most the TLC mathces, The street fight at RR 2000, and 1999. As for ECW the Jerry lynn/ Rob Van Dam show downs were perfect examples of hardcore wrestling done well. Same with the Taz/Sabu at Barelly Legall.

 

[thecruiser]

Even when MTV had that promotion Wrestling Society X it was complete BS i remember watching some show where some guy had his head dumped in a tank with paranas.

But, I respected WSX for that, because they were going back to the roots of hardcore wrestling. When hardcore wrestling first started in Japan and Mexico, they had CRAZY matches, like a Circus Deathmatch, Crocodile Deathmatch, Firestone Deathmatch, C4 Deathmatch, etc. Also, they didn't use it in a shocking way like hardcore matches in XPW and CZW. They just used it as a passive stipulation. That show tried very hard to bring the legacy of Japanese and Mexican deathmatches to the US, but, unfortunately, failed miserably.

 

[blackhart07]

You do have a good point there and i think in Mexico and Japan it is more accepted. I like the garbage/hardcore style that Japan brings like the C4 deathmatches, i havnt herd of any of the others. It just seems like CZW and XPW tried way to hard to be hardcore. Like the Vic Grimes/New Jack match, New jack admitted he tried to kill Vic by trying to throw him on the steel post. I really dont know to much about Japan/Mexican hardcore matches only a couple. I like a promotion that can pull off great wrestling and hardcore matches like ECW, WWE (when they want to actually do it), even TNA has had some good matches like the Monsters ball. It just something about CZW i dont like it seems to much of a spotfest.

 

[Shocky]

Well there is a reason you refer to it as garbage wrestling, because thats all it is. When you're talking about XPW, CZW or any WSX, you have to realize it's niche programming. Hell, I'm not even willing to lump ECW in with those shitty companies that try to pretend they are a wrestling promotion. ECW has produced matches that actually resemble wrestling matchups.

ECW was hardcore, but for the most part, they weren't hardcore for the sake of being hardcore. It was logical progression of feuds and storylines that built up to barbwire, or cages, or chair or flaming tables. This shit like CZW with House of 1000 tubes is just garbage.

I'm sure bleeding gallons of blood impresses the 200 customers that may or may not have paid, and then they will go home and tell everyone how great of a wrestler and how hardcore they were, and so the "legends" are created. Being able to incapacitate oneself is not wrestling. Smashing someone with light bulbs is not wrestling. It's the lowest form of entertainment people in society can enjoy before they are feeding Christians to Lions.

If you want to watch real hardcore wrestling, watch a Mick Foley matchup. And no, not the garbage King of the Deathmatch crap, watch Mick Foley this decade. This decade alone he has had 4 hardcore matches in retirement that no one that claims to be hardcore can touch. Street Fight vs. Triple H, Street Fight vs. Orton, Street Fight vs. Edge, and Extreme Rules match with Edge vs. Tommy Dreamer and Terry Funk. Any of these matches are better then anything that CZW, XPW, or WSX could ever dream of making.

Hardcore wrestling for the sake of being hardcore is boring, stupid, and comical. The shame is, people think that this is legit wrestling. If this was legit wrestling, wrestling would be out of business. If you want to see worthless bloodshed and violence for the sake of violence, go rent a bad movie like Hostel, just give me the wrestling.

 

[Y 2 Jake]

Hitting somebody with a light tube isnt wrestling. It's being stupid. It isn't even fighting. I'm not sure what it is. It's something that anybody can do. But not many people can do well. Moving from spot to spot is all that garbage wrestling is. That form of wrestling will get more and more extreme. But it's pointless. Because The Miz could get 100x more of a reaction by doing his little catchphrase.

 

[Uncle Sam]

Totally agree with Jake and Conspicuous. All that "let's jump off something so high we'll be paraplegics at the bottom" and "I'm going to throw you onto broken lightbulbs" bullshit it just that - bullshit. It requires, as has already been said, little to no skill, unless you can get a PHD in killing yourself just to get a reaction from a small crowd of "rebellious" high school dropouts. I doubt the wrestlers in these promotions even get paid that much, so it's beyond me how they even exist. I'd rather be a trained wrestler and work for peanuts than some moron that thinks they can do a powerbomb (from videos, most of them can't) killing himself for peanuts.

It's just ridiculous in every possible sense.

 

[Y 2 Jake]

Most of the people who do that sort of wrestling have watch Foley & Funk in the King Of The Deathmatch. Which is garbage wrestling at it's lowest form. It's a terrible show, which has legendary status for some unknown reason. They've seen that Foley became a big star and Funk is a legend and they think the same will happen to them. They don't seem to understand that Foley is great in other areas and Funk wrestles that style because he can't work anymore.

 

[thecruiser]

Most of the people who do that sort of wrestling have watch Foley & Funk in the King Of The Deathmatch. Which is garbage wrestling at it's lowest form. It's a terrible show, which has legendary status for some unknown reason. They've seen that Foley became a big star and Funk is a legend and they think the same will happen to them. They don't seem to understand that Foley is great in other areas and Funk wrestles that style because he can't work anymore.

You are absolutely right. They don't realize how good Foley and Funk are at working a match. Both men can work a perfectly fine WRESTLING match (well, Funk cant any more because his back is fucked) without using weapons. I would ONCE like to see these idiots in CZW (Nick Gage, Sexxxy Eddy, Necro Butcher, just to name a few) work a match without so much as use a steel chair. The match would be a spotfest to the max. there wouldn't be any selling, just "O shit, he just jumped on me, now to make the fans like me, I've gotta jump higher than him". It would be one of the worst matches ever, because these guys weren't trained how to work a good WRESTLING match. They were just trained to take huge bumps and how to protect themselves when hitting each other with light tubes.

 

[IAmDoogie]

I believe that hardcore wrestling should have died for the most part at the end of the original ECW. Don't get me wrong, I love Hardcore stuff, but seeing Zandig and Mondo jump off of a building (in a shitty slam that resembles a botched death valley driver...or perhaps a botched powerslam) thru 5 tables with 50 lighttubes stacked on top, just to land on the paved parking lot below is just rediclulous. CZW doesnt have good workers, with the exception of a few, all it is, is a bunch of lighttubes and guys hitting eachother with shit. ECW atleast had a real match behind the Dudleys putting Balls Mahoney thru a flaming table with tacks on it, and its the match behind it that makes the hardcore stuff look better. Basically, the hardcore shit sucks now a days because there is no build up in the match to make the hardcore spots special.

 

[thecruiser]

The WWE's hardcore matches are where the good shit lies. They stretch out the times between each hardcore match and build them up SO much. They also usually get two fairly good workers to do the match, and it gets the two over HUGE. For example, at WrestleMania 22, Edge vs. Mick Foley. At the time, nobody really saw Edge as a threat to Cena's title, which is why creative took it off him three weeks after New Years Revolution, on TV nevertheless. But after Foley and Edge's hardcore match at 'Mania, all Edge has been in is main event matches. At this point in his career, he wouldn't be able to go down to the mid-card, because he's too over, and it's all thanks to that match. This is different from CZW, where the guys destroy each other every night just so the crowd of rednecks and idiots chants "THIS IS AWESOME". The matches there don't mean anything, therefore not putting the workers in those matches over.

 

[KyleCobra]

I truely beleive the only people that like that clusterfuck wrestling are slightly overwieght teens wearing ICP sweaters....really. The only people.

I will never be able to fathom why or how kids can think that is wrestling. Its as bad as bum fights...but less athletically inclined. Those bums are athletes. Jobless athletes.

It truely is the LOWEST form of entertainment, right next to Jerry Springer and right above the Real World. Sorry Miz.

 

[SpiralHands]

ECW knew how to do hardcore wrestling tastefully and decently they could pull it off with the talent they had. CZW has no talent although I enjoy watching some bumps and stuff on youtube eveynow and then for a laugh, its awful and has destroyed the market really for hardcore wrestling. Now its just seen as garbage wrestling because of CZW if there was a promotion around that could pull it off like ECW did now then maybe it could come to the big companys again but to be honest I dont think anyones interested in it any more and will be along time before its seen again like it was in the 90's.

 

[PWAQfan]

Okay i am kinda shitted off at the fact nobody has come to the aid of CZW so i am going to have to do it.

Yeah CZW has alot of "ultraviolent" wrestling, but seriously? ultraviolent is a warning enough it took brutality to the limit and for all you wrestling smarks you will know that CZW only does 2-3 max ultraviolent bouts a show due to laws and the rest are generally really well done matches.

I've stated before in other threads that in strong style kind of matches, no selling is a thing done often to show the intensity in the match and stuff. but you CANNOT say that CZW is garbage wrestling...hell here's an example. Zandig vs Nate Webb - Tournament Of Death 2, Zandig and nate webb fought back and forth to try put eachother thru some of the glass panels, high impact moves were used, punches were thrown but eventually Zandig was got with the nabrasken tumbleweed and then the chairsault that went through glass, continuing into a few minutes later Zandig hit a falcon arrow from nowhere and then perfomed a massive powerbomb into the corner glass panel...winning the match.

or just look at a Drake Younger Vs Brain Damage, it was violent but involved alot of suplexes, piledrivers, holds, kicks etc

you can't say ECW was the only Hardcore brand, for fucks sake Japan and Mexico have been doing it way longer, btw complain about no selling? never ever watch Mexican wrestling, i love that stuff for the technical prowess and cool funky storylines, but they are the worlds largest no sellers and over sellers


ANYWHO, your all entitled to your opinion but don't complain about it if you already knew it was 'ultraviolent' go tell Chris Hero or Eddie Kingston you think they are just garbage wrestling, how about a visit to Sick Nick Mondo or Nick Gage?

 

[Shadowmancer]

OK you want my opinion on CZW. They had talent when they had the likes of Chris Sabin, Alex Shelley, Sonjay Dutt and Chris Hero working for them on a regular basis. Now who is there to stop it from being something incredibly stupid Like the Lighttubes taped to skateboard match. It is stupid they look cool it doesn't mean that it is smart.

And as for the fact that people are calling ECW the only hardcore brand that is because ECW made it to a degree that Noone gave a rats ass if the spot with weapons was needed. It added to the moment if anything. And that combined with the fact that most of the people on this board do not watch Puro or Lucha. But some of the Death matches in Japan are beyond stupid and just by reading Foley's first book you get the feeling that he thought so to.

Ultraviolence serves no point in today's wrestling as it is too over the top for people to suspend disbelief, Lucha and Puro you look at and it portrays different things. But they work different styles that fit with the nature of both the people that watch it and the culture of the country it is in. Puro for example has a strong basis in the Strong Style with the King's Road Style main Events that occurred and still do so in Noah. So where does Ultraviolence fit into American culture, the Fifth Amendment?(Whatever one it is that gives them the right to bear Arms) The history of violence due to gun violence in the Historical setting (eg. The Killing of Native Americans, The American Civil war, Hiroshima and Nagasaki) Or is it a reflection of City life(Murder rates and drive by shootings in Detroit, New York, Los Angeles and other places) If those aren't where the concept of Ultraviolence fits into American society than it does not fulfill a part in a positive society, therefore why should Ultraviolence be accepted. Violence is fine and is human nature. I praise the work of Foley in the Hardcore realms. The match with Edge at Wrestlemania 22 is an example of this, but it was built to and made sense that Mick Foley wanted to win and have his WrestleMania moment. He showed that by making Edge desperate to win. As opposed to the same type of matches that you see in CZW now, there is no point to the violence simple as that.

 

[sigep111482]

Ah first time poster here, I feel that Hardcode Wrestling has its place, I just don't like when it is overdone & causes a bunch of unnecessary injuries just to please the crowd. I like how the old ECW did it where you had the hardcode stuff, but you also had a variety of other things that made it work such as great wrestlers & storylines.

 

[PWAQfan]

i respect what the guy said about it not serving any purpose but the purpose is the limit and also if you guys are talking about lightubes and crap and just pointless crap.
Look at say...the Joker Vs Ruckus world title match, pure wrestling.
Btw, you can't judge a company on what big names it used to have, but what kind of talent they are putting out now, if all you care about it big names then you dont like Indys you like the "Class Acts" who everyone else lieks, not who you see has potential or who you think could aspire to things....take that on board.