Is Jericho putting you over a good thing?

[NegativeFeedback]

WWE likes to use Chris Jericho as a stepping stone. Every time he returns, he puts over someone who is currently in a big push, and then he goes away while that person becomes an even bigger star... Or at least that's the idea. In practice, things don't work out like that.

Here are the last people Chris Jericho put over:
• Wade Barrett on March 18 Raw
• Jack Swagger on March 15 Smackdown
• Fandango @ WrestleMania 28
• Dolph Ziggler on April 12 Smackdown & April 22 Raw
• CM Punk @ Payback
• Ryback @ Money in the Bank
• Curtis Axel @ last match on SD before leaving the company

Look at all those names. Almost immediately after getting put over by the greatest of all time, these guys' pushes were over.

Wade Barrett beat Jericho in an IC title match, he was then left off Mania, and then his push came to a screeching halt, losing it to Curtis Axel. Curtis beat Jericho a couple of times and then dropped the IC title, lost Paul Heyman, and became a tag team jobber. Same goes for Ryback. Jericho was his last big win.

Dolph and Jack were both in the World title scene when they went over Jericho. Then they were buried down the card. Jack rebounded much later in the year with a tag team run, but he lost most of his matches. Dolph has yet to rebound from the purgatory he's stuck in.

As for Punk, he was definitely protected throughout the year, but at the time when he beat Jericho, he was in the main event scene. He was stuck in the midcard treading it out with Ryback and Curtis for the rest of the year before calling it quits.

The only names I left out from the list are Rob Van Dam and The Big Show. Jericho put both of them over, but they're too established already to be buried. They both ended up getting a PPV world title match after beating Jericho, although they both pretty much disappeared after that.

So what do you guys think? Is it just a coincidence that all these guys got buried after beating Jericho or is there something more to this connection?

 

[FickMoley]

Well let's break it down. You were thorough by listing all of Jericho's recent matches, but right away let's throw away Axel, Ryback and Swagger. Those are 3 guys whom the WWE wanted to make into stars, but all 3 have multiple, seriously major flaws. Bigger names than even Jericho have tried to make those 3 look good and it just didn't land. Knowing what we know about Axel's blandness, there is no way today that he would defeat and concuss HHH as part of a major story line. Beating Jericho or not, these 3 would need Jim Carrey's mask from "The Mask" to transform into anything but utility guys.

Fandango was in line to become Intercontinental Champion after WM 29. He suffered one of many unfortunate WWE concussions in 2013 and lost his opportunity to the aforementioned charisma-machine Axel. At that time, Fandango was still getting special entrances and double segments. Obviously, when Fandango healed they didn't push him as hard as originally planned but he fills a role that goes under appreciated by a lot of hardcore fans, particularly the 13-25 crowd. I get a kick out of Fandango and enjoy his stuff with Santino. If I was still in that 13-25 group I probably wouldn't allow myself to enjoy it. Fandango isn't thought of very highly because of his "place on the card" and his win/loss record and all that, as though his career is suffering. But he is on a reality show often, he usually wrestles in a prime spot somewhere between 8:30 to 9:30, he has merchandise and even his valets are feuding over him (which is a nice throwback angle, by the way). You can't measure Fandango's success by traditional means. Think of Brock and Orton as heavily leaning "Sports" guys, and Fandango and Santino as heavily leaning "Entertainment." Don't worry if he's "being perceived as a legitimate threat," Fandango in reality is much more successful than people make him out to be.

Ziggler and Barrett are by far the most interesting names on your list and likely, one or both is the true inspiration for this thread. The type of people who post on WZ are likely to be a big fan of one or both of these guys. Myself? I love Bad News Barrett and he can hardly do any wrong in my eyes. I can't separate him from ADR though. He is around the same size as Alberto del Rio, same physical "technical brawler" style, the same international flavor. And yet the smaller, less charismatic, inarticulate del Rio is the 4 time World champ with multiple PPV title matches? Seems like they had the wrong career, can we get them a Freaky Friday switch or something?

Ziggler = Rachel Leigh Cook from She's All That. It's infuriating that all he needs are some minor cosmetic details to be perceived in a new way. He needs to let his hair grow in its normal color, stop wearing shorts that say "OVER IT" but look like "QUER IT" on TV, knock off the "slimy Floridian grease ball + Miami Vice-styled douche from Hollywood, Florida" kind of veneer that is holding him back, and by God get the guy another hot valet. His most memorable and successful run in recent history was authored alongside AJ Lee. Losing her, Big E and getting concussed in about one month just derailed him. I don't think he'll ever be a main event mainstay though. I don't think Vince sees him as more virile than him, so that's that.

 

[Jack-Hammer]

So because those guys have either been buried at one point or demoted down the card is an indicator that losing to Jericho is part of some sinister conspiracy? Or that Jericho putting you over is something along the lines of a career kiss of death?

Chris Jericho is widely known as one of the most unselfish big name stars in the business. The fact that he's also been one of the top overall pro wrestlers of his generation with quality work on the mic and in the ring has helped keep him popular and relevant. He also has a unique gift/niche of being able to frequently lose matches while not losing any of his star power or popularity with fans. When you have all those qualities in one worker, you have yourself an extremely valuable asset.

Putting other guys over isn't some guarantee that their career is gonna skyrocket or that it means only good things from now on. When it's all said & done, Jericho's a cog in the wheel. There are any number of factors that can lead to a career downfall ranging from garnering heat backstage by behaving like a world class prick, committing a crime that results in you being arrested, personal issues that get in the way of your job including marriage problems & drug use, sometimes the powers that be lose faith in a wrestler if they feel he/she isn't able to deliver at the level that executives feel they should, etc.

 

[Dynamitekid2012]

I don't buy into Y2J being that unselfish. Everyone puts over everyone in the wrestling business, minus a select few who are being marks for themselves. Movie stars take roles knowing they are going to die in the end of the film; it's their job to do so. Wrestling is the same way. It's their job to lose and put people over. I don't understand when people say things like this and commend someone for doing their job. We certainly don't say that about people when they die in movies at the expense of another character, why would we say that about wrestling? Again, IT'S THEIR JOB TO DO THAT!

Back on topic... As it was previously mentioned, so many factors play into who gets what. Additionally, timing is a huge factor. Being the right person, in the right position, at the right time makes a huge difference. It this was circa 1993, Daniel Bryan would have never received the push he got. Likewise, forcing someone down our throats simply because he's a BIG guy won't work in today's era.

 

[George Steele's Barber]

You can't put someone over when two-thirds of the audience thinks you are there to put a guy over. Jericho is ultimately there to fill time, entertain, and draw. If a guy gets over in the process terrific but for the last few years Jericho has lost his ability to put guys over. That doesn't mean he has no value because he is still able to fill time, entertain, and draw but ultimately no one is moving any further up the card because they topped Jericho in a match or feud.

 

[NegativeFeedback]

So because those guys have either been buried at one point or demoted down the card is an indicator that losing to Jericho is part of some sinister conspiracy? Or that Jericho putting you over is something along the lines of a career kiss of death?

I wouldn't go so far as to call it a sinister conspiracy, but there's definitely a correlation here.

My guess is this. When WWE is pushing guys, they are either behind you 100% (Bray Wyatt, Roman Reigns, etc.) or they are lukewarm and really don't know how much legs their push is going to get.

When they are behind you 100%, you get to work with the big dogs. You have guys like Randy Orton and Daniel Bryan putting you over.

But when they still don't know if you're at that level, they put you over Chris Jericho. That's why guys like Barrett and Ziggler got to go over Chris, but still jobbed out to everybody else and then got buried down the card.

It's not that there's a sinister conspiracy. It's just that going over Chris Jericho is not a big deal in the writers' eyes. They want you to go over a "safe" opponent with credibility, but not as much starpower to actually give you a great push.

By all means I think Jericho deserves better. Going over Chris Jericho should be a really big deal. But WWE has no qualms with bringing back Jericho, having him job to Bo Dallas at SummerSlam, and then change their minds and bury Bo a month later. If Bo was going over Batista however, his push would have more legs.

 

[shafe_41]

Of course going over Jericho is a good thing. But it's creative's job to come up with something for you after that. You can't just be thrown at Jericho and expect something else to come out of it. The only reason Jericho is perfect to use in that situation is because with his part-time schedule, he's quite unlikely to hold a world title. So Jericho gets the gift of getting into somewhat random feuds with superstars, having good matches, and moving on to someone else. It's an honor to get into the ring with him. But just because you go over him, doesn't mean you're going to be successful for the remainder of your career. Nothing guarantees that. Especially when you are winning/losing random matches on Raw and Smackdown because WWE has to fill TV time for the week.

Matches on those shows mean next to nothing anymore with the amount of programming WWE puts out on a weekly basis. So those are discounted completely in my opinion. You could find a million examples of those because nobody remembers them. They're used 95% to enhance and progress storylines with run-ins, cheating, interference, etc... I might be able to remember 20 memorable Raw/Smackdown matches over the last 20 years. And those you mentioned... I recall none of them.

As for Ryback, Punk, and Fandango... Ryback isn't that good. His career got derailed by a terrible heel turn, a bad attitude, and having people say he was sort of dangerous to work with. I've never liked Ryback. Punk shouldn't even be mentioned in the same sentence. As much as I don't want to hear Punk's name ever by anybody until he stands in a WWE ring again (which I also don't care to see), he worked a personal feud against Heyman/Axel that wasn't terrible. It was a last ditch effort to try to make Axel interesting. There are just some careers Heyman can't save... Axel is one of them. He's as interesting as a 2x4. Then Punk went on to work with Bryan and the Wyatts before he took his ball and went home. Punk quit. He didn't get derailed by a program with Jericho six months prior. Awful example. As for Fandango... as much as I was into the post-Mania wave of people singing his music, he's also not that interesting because end of the day... his gimmick is a ballroom dancer. It's terrible. Love his music. But his gimmick will get him nowhere. Jericho has nothing to do with an awful gimmick.

 

[ADLegend21]

Jericho is one of those guys that likes to help the Younger talent by getting them over. same goes with Big Show who OP mentioned on that list. He put over Fandango because that gimmick was partially his brain child to mock himself for being on dancing with the Stars. Fandango was SUPER OVER in NY/NJ as evidence of Fandango'ing but that came down from the high and he sort of fell off because of it. Axel was harmed by being involved in the Heyman v Punk storyline because there's no way the IC champ could beat a former 5 time World champ clean unless he was being pushed to the moon and said former world champ was on the way down. Barrett just had his gimmick redone to get him BACK to the IC title and he apparently had Visa issues.

Jericho can only do so much and he does what he can to make you look good and tell people in the back how good you are. When he faced Daniel Bryan on NXT he went straight to Vince and said "This guy is good and can go places" and look at him now. If I was a young guy in the WWE I'd definitely want Jericho or Big Show to put me over.

 

[Dragon Chief]

Chris Jericho putting over young talent is never bad a thing for them, it is however a bad thing for him seeing how poorly these wrestlers do after beat Jericho. In the long run, sure all it does is tarnish his legacy every time he loses to a low card talent like Fandango. However at the time these wrestlers were in the middle of push, so it is understandable for Jericho put them over if WWE sees potential in them. I think when or if Jericho returns this time around he should be more cautious on who he puts over because short term fame for these guys is not worth the long term pain for the legacy Jericho worked so hard to create.

If these guys can't get over after getting put over by a major talent like Y2J, then they are to blame not anybody else. Simple as that.

 

[THTRobtaylor]

The issue with Jericho was eventually it became diminishing returns and as Gorilla would say "going to the well once to often"... in his great period with Bryan, Punk etc he had not that long been World champ and won the title, so he had had success albiet surprise success. More recently he had lost and lost and lost until he didn't "seem" that special any more, the great match out of Fandango would have been better if he'd won some big matches closer to it... if the rumors of him being in MITB are true then that is the time to recharge that well... give him the win, give him the Briefcase or the title... hell even give him the 10th IC belt and have him invoke #1 contendership... he can then win some matches, lose some, but he has that big win to tide him over and make him seem important.

It;s the same thing that made it hard to believe as recently as Mania that Kane was a "big win" cos he'd lost and been *****fied so often...

Jericho isn't unselfish and I am sure he feels that while he has done "all he needs to" he has to also get something creatively out of it...and it's also perhaps the same issue that Punk had and I think a big reason he walked... they made him put over Ryback and then ditched him same for Jericho and Fandango... If he's gonna do it, he wants to know it "means something" cos that's when the well runs dry, when it's just putting people over for the sake of it.

 

[kadroan]

Yeah, it's a good thing Jericho put talent over. However, it's up to the talent and creative on where they go next.

Creative has been inconsistent with Barrett for the longest. Royal Rumble 2013, they make it seem like he's replicating the Undertaker/Maven storyline from 2002 with Bo Dallas but it didn't last long. Next, he's used in Miz's push when he aligned with Flair, however, he won the title back the day after WM. Axel was another person they liked a lot and pushed but like Miz, they couldn't connect to the crowd. I thought they would have had him as the muscle of The Authority last summer since he was facing Bryan quite a bit but they dropped that quick.

 

[PeterSellersSTL]

would love to see Jericho comeback and work a feud with Bo Dallas. Dallas reminds me of WCW Lionheart Chris Jericho and he could probably pick a thing or two or 1004 working with Jericho.

 

[NegativeFeedback]

If Bray Wyatt is buried after working with Jericho, we'll know my theory is correct.

 

[TWJC: The Beginning]

What is "putting over" or "buried"?

At this point does it really matter? "Buried is over used". The only way someone gets buried is if they lose a squash and are never seen again. Losing isn't burying.

So, win or lose, a feud with Jericho is good. It brings more eyeballs to your segments. If you perform, you will get more over after, because you will convert some fans. If you suck, win or lose, you won't get more over.

 

[NegativeFeedback]

What is "putting over" or "buried"?

At this point does it really matter? "Buried is over used". The only way someone gets buried is if they lose a squash and are never seen again. Losing isn't burying.

So, win or lose, a feud with Jericho is good. It brings more eyeballs to your segments. If you perform, you will get more over after, because you will convert some fans. If you suck, win or lose, you won't get more over.

Buried would be pushed down the pecking order. When someone goes from constant main events to working the midcard or tag teams. CM Punk was buried after his first World title reign. Ryback was buried after his main event push. Dolph was buried after his cash-in last year, etc.

Going from midcarder to jobber would also be considered buried (Sandow, Ryder, Fandango, etc.) If you were at a certain position in the pecking order, and ended up in a drastically lower one, you were buried. As simple as that.

If Bray Wyatt beats Jericho at Battleground and loses a US title match to Sheamus at SummerSlam, and then working comedy segments with Santino and Khali, I'd consider his push officially buried.

 

[TWJC: The Beginning]

Buried would be pushed down the pecking order. When someone goes from constant main events to working the midcard or tag teams. CM Punk was buried after his first World title reign. Ryback was buried after his main event push. Dolph was buried after his cash-in last year, etc.

Going from midcarder to jobber would also be considered buried (Sandow, Ryder, Fandango, etc.) If you were at a certain position in the pecking order, and ended up in a drastically lower one, you were buried. As simple as that.

If Bray Wyatt beats Jericho at Battleground and loses a US title match to Sheamus at SummerSlam, and then working comedy segments with Santino and Khali, I'd consider his push officially buried.

In all of those situations, the guy didn't get anymore over. That's not getting buried, that's failing your job and getting demoted back down until you can prove yourself.

I really hate this idea that it's WWE's fault when someone doesn't get over and the wrestler's when he does and WWE needs to work magical programs to get guys over. No. They give you a shot, if you don't get over, your push stops and it's time for someone else. They have little time to squander.

If Wyatt beats Jericho at Battleground and loses a US title match to Sheamus at Summerslam (already a demotion in that case) then works comedy segments, it'd be because he didn't get over. Vince likes to make money. Looking as objectively as you can, this is usually the way the programs are booked. Remember when Daniel Bryan was hot shotted into the Sheamus/Del Rio feud after he lost in 18 seconds? That was booking to the money.

 

[Anti-IWC-Marks]

Look at all those names. Almost immediately after getting put over by the greatest of all time, these guys' pushes were over.

Did you just call Chris Jericho the "greatest of all time"? Wow, you're a complete mark.

So what do you guys think? Is it just a coincidence that all these guys got buried after beating Jericho or is there something more to this connection?

Probably because Jericho is somewhat stale and nobody views beating him as a big deal.

 

[NegativeFeedback]

In all of those situations, the guy didn't get anymore over. That's not getting buried, that's failing your job and getting demoted back down until you can prove yourself.

I really hate this idea that it's WWE's fault when someone doesn't get over and the wrestler's when he does and WWE needs to work magical programs to get guys over. No. They give you a shot, if you don't get over, your push stops and it's time for someone else. They have little time to squander.

If Wyatt beats Jericho at Battleground and loses a US title match to Sheamus at Summerslam (already a demotion in that case) then works comedy segments, it'd be because he didn't get over. Vince likes to make money. Looking as objectively as you can, this is usually the way the programs are booked. Remember when Daniel Bryan was hot shotted into the Sheamus/Del Rio feud after he lost in 18 seconds? That was booking to the money.

That's just horse-shit man, come on. I remember reading reports that CM Punk was selling tons of merchandise and that WWE was very surprised. He got huge pops when he was World Champ. But they didn't book him to beat ANYBODY. He needed help to beat JBL on Raw his first night as champion. They put him against Batista at The Bash, and they had it end in a non-finish because they didn't want Punk beating anybody. It was total bullshit booking.

Zack Ryder was ridiculously over, people were chanting his name during Rock promos. But WWE had him drop the US title, put him in a wheelchair, and had Kane push him off the stage. His burial was completely deliberate.

Dolph was also REALLY hot. In fact, they had just turned him face because of all the pops when his burial began. WWE shoved him out of the title picture and moved him into a bogus feud with Big E. It was b.s. Dolph's popularity didn't swindle until months after the burial was put in motion.

The fact is that crowds will follow whoever is pushed, as simple as that. That's why I don't blame Jericho for all these people being de-pushed after he puts them over. Him putting them over helps these guys. It's WWE who immediately jobs them out after the wins over Jericho that ruins it.

The curse is that the writing team loves to bury guys who Jericho put over, not that Jericho himself is cursed.