Is it right....

[Paradox]

Alright I posted something like this in the Cena thread, but got thinking that this is more than Cena. This idea goes to each and every wrestler, and to each and every fan. I am simply using Cena as an example. Now, I know that I will catch some type of heat for saying this. I know that many will say that I shouldn't be on a forum with this view. I just want to know what your views on this topic are.

Is it right for us to sit back and bash John Cena for being stale predicable after being with the same gimmick for 4 years. When Hulk Hogan had the same gimmick for more 10? Yes, I know that Cena isn't on the level on Hogan. Or is he? ( I'm playing Devil's advocate) This I know will get me a ton of heat, but hear me out. When we were growing up a majority of us watched Hogan, we loved him. We ate up his promos. "You better eat your vitamins and say your prayers." Anything involved with Hogan we adored. Now we realize that he wasn't the most talented in the ring. He was extremely limited at best. Though we would all tune in a watch each and everyone of his matches. Now that happened for years, and we never complained. Why should we? Even though it was the same each time. Same match we'd seen before. We loved wrestling and we took it all in. It was like to gladiators going to battle, and we would cheer for our favorite which was normally Hogan. Now Cena has had the same gimmick for just over 4 years, and we are screaming for him to change his gimmick. "He needs to be fresh." "change something about him." "He's just boring now." "I can predict his matches down to a tee." We could do that with Hogan. Now my favorite is, "OMG THEY NEED TO TURN CENA HEEL!!!" How many of us cared about Heel's when we were watching Hogan? I sure wasn't. Hogan, really I don't care about heel's until Hogan turned heel, in 96.

Then that all changed... It was when the Spectacle of wrestling became the Reality of Wrestling. When wrestling became real to all of us. Two word, two words changed the entire landscape of wrestling. The Attitude Era. It was by far the peak of wrestling. It also changed the way each and everyone of us look at, and watched wrestling. We think that it has to be edgy, guys calling each other sob's and flipping people of. Stunning the boss. It is my opinion that as great as the Attitude Era was. It ruined wrestling for my generation. How many of us now look back and think how great it was. You had Austin, The Rock, Triple H, Shawn Michael, Kurt Angle, UnderTaker, Kane. The list goes on. You had all of these great wrestlers, on what became a soap opera. This time instead of being in a suburb it was in a ring. Each week we were launched into these stories that were insane. Though they were real. We became more wrapped up in the story line then the wrestling. It wasn't so much about if Austin won the match, we were waiting to see if he would Stun Vince. Or if he lost what was his reaction going to be. Not only that, it was in that time that we saw blood. More than we normally saw. It was crazy. How many matches was Austin in that were First Blood matches? I count like 4 or 5. 2 in arrow. We ate it up. Now we are mad we don't see it. Yes blood, made it real, but it got to the point that if there wasn't blood we were mad. Now not to discredit any of those wrestlers. They were amazing. We loved how each of them was completely different. Though in my mind it completely destroyed wrestling. Why? Because no one we look at now can compare. The story lines aren't what they use to be. Then we complain about how we get no wrestling now, well there were times were raw didn't have that much wrestling either.

To be honest I don't have a problem with wrestling today. I find entertaining, though there are time when I wonder. Yet, many of us bash todays product. Cuz it's just for the kiddies. Well what do you think we grew up on? Those who don't think wrestling is on a cycle I give you this. When we grew up, we had an uber face in Hogan. Then we we got older we had a rebel in Austin. Teenager. Then we had those Two years of The Rock, Austin, and Triple h, right before Rock and Austin left. Now Were back to the uber face in Cena. Who the kids adore. We were there too. Yet, now Cena is hated, because he's "getting stale." I think there needs to be a medium, yes, I think there is now. We have cooler more wrestling based show in smackdown, and a more story lined based show on raw, though the story lines are awful.

Now with all of that said, I want ask a question. If we were able to go back in time. With the criticism that we have now about wrestling. How much would we bash Hogan? Would we scream that he's bland? That he needs to be a heel? Would we chant you can't wrestle? Yet, Hogan is remember as an all time great. Cena, he can't wrestle. What about Flair? We all know that he was amazing in the ring, and could put on a great match. As can Triple h, but Paul gets bashed all the time that he is a power hungry and just wants the belt so that he will be remembered as the best. Would we bash Flair as much as we do Triple h? Would we say that he needs to step back from the title picture? Let some of the new blood in? What about the likes of Savage? Warrior? Would we bash them, in how they never did anything in the ring? (Referring to Warrior) Or How Savage was to over the top.... Would we bash all of these men the way we bash wresting today? Or would we let them slide. Would we turn around at complain about how they need to change the story lines up, because we saw Hogan do this the last time he wrestled... You see what I'm getting at.

I don't think that it is right, because these men are going and working there asses of and all we do is bash them. Yet, twenty years ago we saw the same thing, and we loved it. The only difference is we are older.... The cycle has restarted. We aren't the ones that the product is projected to. Though we sure will bash them for their pg era. Wasn't WCW who was pg the whole time? Yet, they destroyed WWF there for awhile. I think that WWE can be good in pg. Very good, we just have to give it a chance, until we give it a chance we won't enjoy the product.

Well that's my two cents tell me what you think. If you agree of disagree, or if you think I'm nuts.....

 

[SSJPhenom]

Good question.

Simply put, if we knew as much about wrestling then that we do now, then yes, we would have bashed Hogan, Savage, definately Warrior, Flair and so on. I mean, it would be enevitable.

The reason that they were able to get away with it back then was because wrestling was still portrayed as real and there was no internet sites that would post the behind the scenes stories or spoilers or anything else like that. Also, we were kids and we got completely wrapped up in what was happening. We didn't criticize then because we just enjoyed the product.

I will tell you this. If I were this age in the early to mid 90's and I had the internet and resources that I have now, then I would have been the first to jump on Hogan. I would have bashed the shit out of Hogan. I would have talked about his ego, his in ring ability, his character. I would have covored all bases. We just didn't have those resources then and plus, we were kids.

When the kids of today grow up, they will talk about how great Cena, Orton, CM Punk, Hardy, and so on were and they will bash the shit out of their top stars. That is the cycle that is professional wrestling.

I do think that they work hard, but they can't satisfy everyone and they are always going to be criticized as long as fans have a forum (no pun intended) to do so. Do I think that it is right? Yes, because we are the paying customer and if we don't like it, we have a right to say we don't. Is it always fair? No, but thems the bricks.

 

[SJM12492]

I'm sure that there aren't that many people in these forums who dislike Cena, most of use enjoy his work, but really just have a problem with his moves and the fact that they are too predictable. I personally think Cena is great, he's a great champion, awesome with the mic, even though his wrestling skills do lack, he has more passion in the business then anyone.
Yeah, I think it's wrong that people disrespect after all he has contributed to the company that made him famous. Personally, I feel he is a great inspiration for kids and IS what Hogan was for you, or what Austin was for me (even though he's not that inspiring for kids, LOL).
Anyone who just says crap like "the WWE are only doing for the little kiddies" need to get their ass kicked.

 

[The Brain]

The main difference between then and now is overexposure of the product. When Hogan, Savage, and Warrior were on top we rarely saw them on tv. They were on ppv and the occasional Saturday Night's Main Event. Other than that you had to rent the old coliseum videos to see them wrestle. You would see them give interviews, but you hardly ever saw Hogan wrestle on Superstars or Prime Time. We see Cena wrestle every week on RAW and at least once a month on ppv. That is why he seems stale. Ever hear of too much of a good thing? I'm sure if we saw Hogan wrestle every single week back then people would have thought he was stale too. I personally don't think Cena is stale, but I'm sure the overexposure is why some people do.

 

[seven3too]

WELL DONE UNDERTAKER'S #1 FAN ..well you're right when you say too many of us bash today's product cause it's for kids. we all got too used to the attitude era, and i understand that turning the product to what it is today was a legit business move by Vince Mcmahon. so although we bash it and to us it was an unpopular move it gonna provide us with wwe product for years to come. because the alternative was to keep it like it was but then who knows what could've happened. the negative media attention due to consistantly raising the bar of over the top moves and content, coupled with the fact that wrestlers would gravitate to the competition because the schedule and work load is lighter.

ON THE OTHER HAND, yes, we bash the cena product because we've seen it before and to us it's been there, done that. plus, there are too many talented (more talented) superstars that will never get the chance to be the flagship for the wwe because there is a cena/hogan orange monster that monopolizes the brand and the attention. just look at raw now, its an on going HHH, cena, orton soap opera, and it's boring.

Years ago, during the wwf, nwa/wcw years the quality of wrestling was better dare i say. sure many of the guys in the nwa/wcw couldn't shine in a vince mcmahon mainstream spotlight. but they worked with what they had to make it a comparable product. case in point, wwf couldn't make ricky steamboat their champ because a run with hogan wasn't ever gonna sell out the garden consistantly. but who was a better wrestler? and 2 years after dumping the ic title, he was the wcw champ. magnum ta, bobby eaton, arn anderson, tully blanchard, barry windham all i loved to watch. but couldn't make it into a mainstream because Vince Mcmahon made the wwe/f product based on egos and auras and not pure 100% talent. even the ic title picture was always more entertaining because you saw a good wrestling match. the wwe/f title picture was the culmination of events and resembled the end of an ok movie at times.

the pg in nwa/wcw was great cause they could all wrestle. Flair was top dog and always put on a show as did sting, vader, the great muta, jushin liger..could we name somebody besides luger that couldn't really wrestle? but even he was fun to watch early on...the days of the stiff, charismatic but far less talented have to end soon. because its pulling further and further from "wrestling".

 

[Mitch Henessey]

I was way to young to remeber the golden days of Hulk Hogan. But as a kid, and unlike most kids, I liked the NWO version of Hogan. I was also a huge fan of Goldberg at that time. When, I was that young I didn't care or not if Goldberg was a great wrestler. All I wanted to see was him do was spear the shit of someone, and make his long entrance to the ring. Then as I grew older I started to learn more and more about pro wrestling. The internet and the many DVD sets i've seen, are the reason I know more about wrestling. So If I was going on the internet back when was a kid, yeah I would've proably bashed guys like Hogan. I would've proably wrote a three page rant on some forum, when Warrior won the WWE championship at Wrestlemania. I also would not have thought Goldberg was that great after all. But I didn't because I was kid, and I just wanted to enjoy wrestling, not study it. I have a tremndous amount of respect for pro wrestlers. They put their bodys through hell for us. But at the same time, we still can crtiticize them if we don't like them. Of course it's not fair, but life isn't fair.

 

[seven3too]

bunch of f'n juice heads that wanna be in movies and don't give a shit about titles and have no pride. all they want is a script to suburban commando 2.. i just saw magnum ta and ric flair wrestle for $1000 dollars!!!! and i think tony schivonne was the only one in attendance... you cant get any wrestler to do anything for you. much less "wrestle" for $1000 dollars. the belts would mean more if the wrestlers thought more of the sport. thankfully we still have the zigglers and the morrisons today

 

[DW16]

This is an interesting thread. I do find it a little wrong that us smarks bash Cena, HHH, etc & praised Hogan despite his in ring abilities being sub-par. But hey, age changed everything. If we had the technology we have now.... I agree with seven3too that we've seen the product too many times before & there are plenty better up & coming stars for the same wrestlers to take up t.v. time.

 

[Paradox]

Good question.

Simply put, if we knew as much about wrestling then that we do now, then yes, we would have bashed Hogan, Savage, definately Warrior, Flair and so on. I mean, it would be enevitable.

Something we agree on. My only problem is then, if we admit that we would. Why do we still praise them? That is what makes no sense to me. I've seen it happen were people say, "Hulk Hogan is the best of all time." Then someone said, "No he wasn't he was boring in the ring his matches were the same... Yeah, he could give a good promo, but other than nothing was that special." That person got blasted out of his mind. If we admit we would blast them for being the very thing we are mad at now. why do we still say their the best?

The reason that they were able to get away with it back then was because wrestling was still portrayed as real and there was no internet sites that would post the behind the scenes stories or spoilers or anything else like that. Also, we were kids and we got completely wrapped up in what was happening. We didn't criticize then because we just enjoyed the product.

Exactly my point. Why should that change? If we are going to critical of todays top stars should we not be just as critical of our "heros"?

I will tell you this. If I were this age in the early to mid 90's and I had the internet and resources that I have now, then I would have been the first to jump on Hogan. I would have bashed the shit out of Hogan. I would have talked about his ego, his in ring ability, his character. I would have covored all bases. We just didn't have those resources then and plus, we were kids.

So what's stopping you from doing so now? If you're going to blast Cena, blast Hogan. Isn't your opinion that Cena is doing a half rate job of what Hogan did?

When the kids of today grow up, they will talk about how great Cena, Orton, CM Punk, Hardy, and so on were and they will bash the shit out of their top stars. That is the cycle that is professional wrestling.

I agree with you.

I do think that they work hard, but they can't satisfy everyone and they are always going to be criticized as long as fans have a forum (no pun intended) to do so. Do I think that it is right? Yes, because we are the paying customer and if we don't like it, we have a right to say we don't. Is it always fair? No, but thems the bricks.

Once again I agree, do I think it should happen, no... Unless we are going to start holding everyone to a higher standard as we do todays stars. I just don't think we should Bash men like Triple h, and Cena, and turn around and say That Ric Flair and Hogan are the best.

 

[Paradox]

bunch of f'n juice heads that wanna be in movies and don't give a shit about titles and have no pride. all they want is a script to suburban commando 2.. i just saw magnum ta and ric flair wrestle for $1000 dollars!!!! and i think tony schivonne was the only one in attendance... you cant get any wrestler to do anything for you. much less "wrestle" for $1000 dollars. the belts would mean more if the wrestlers thought more of the sport. thankfully we still have the zigglers and the morrisons today

First, you didn't even answer the question at least not that I saw. Instead you just bashed the whole roster, besides Ziggler and Morrison.

Still I will respond...

What are you trying to say? That wrestlers today don't have respect for the business? If that's it then I turn you to Cena, he's done everything that has been asked of him. Whether it be appearances, signings, events, or wrestling. He does it all for the company. Much more than anyone else. Also as much as some hate it. Triple h is no slouch for working. He is doing a ton behind the scenes. Each wrestler does there part for the business. The aren't all as you put it"f'n juice heads that want to be in movies." They aren't, and it's ridiculous for you to say that!

 

[byrnside]

As much as I'm fighting biting a hole through my tongue right now. I don't really think that John Cena's character is stale.. I mean, It is to a lot of us, myself included.. But if we'd talked about this 15 years ago, I'm sure the smarks out there would've said the same thing about Hogan. But the kids love Cena, just like they/we loved Hogan.

 

[SSJPhenom]

Something we agree on. My only problem is then, if we admit that we would. Why do we still praise them? That is what makes no sense to me. I've seen it happen were people say, "Hulk Hogan is the best of all time." Then someone said, "No he wasn't he was boring in the ring his matches were the same... Yeah, he could give a good promo, but other than nothing was that special." That person got blasted out of his mind. If we admit we would blast them for being the very thing we are mad at now. why do we still say their the best?

I think that we do kind of blast them sometimes. I know Warrior get's blasted on here all the time. I think that we let them pass, however, because they were the first to do what they did and ultimately we do have a level of respect for those guys that brought the business to where it is today.

Exactly my point. Why should that change? If we are going to critical of todays top stars should we not be just as critical of our "heros"?

But what we are doing is comparing our top stars today to our, "heroes," as you said. When we make that comparison, they really don't match up.

So what's stopping you from doing so now? If you're going to blast Cena, blast Hogan. Isn't your opinion that Cena is doing a half rate job of what Hogan did?

I have blasted Hogan on here several times. Go check out some of the threads referring to Hogan coming back. I especially bash him for his work in WCW, as I think that while he was working some good angles in WCW he was actually having shit match after shit match after, legendarily shit match.

I agree with you.

It's about time!

Once again I agree, do I think it should happen, no... Unless we are going to start holding everyone to a higher standard as we do todays stars. I just don't think we should Bash men like Triple h, and Cena, and turn around and say That Ric Flair and Hogan are the best.

We hold our stars to a higher standard because, like someone has already said, they are pretty much trying to do what our heroes have already done. If we are going to see the same things that we seen 10 to 15 to 20 years ago, it better damn well be better than what was seen then. Sad fact is, however, it isn't.

 

[MaciniRocks]

I have had this discussion a few times with some friends of mine and the answer is always the same...

We love our heroes that we looked up to and it hurts to admit it... but HOGAN SUCKED. I admit to still marking for the man (as he was my childhood hero) but with age comes knowledge. I can look back on some matches that I loved as a younger version of me and realize that they were horrible. But at the same time those matches and programs were not meant for a mid-20s Macini but rather a 10 and under Macini.

I don't like Cena's in-ring, as well as some other guys who I'd probably get killed for naming *Cough* Jay Lethal *Cough* but I respect the hell out of them as people. Especially all that Cena has done outside of the business, he's a real human decent being and there aren't many of those left. So yes we bash him and brand him boring and predictable but this is just the cycle of life...

Anyone remember the cartoons and shows we watched as kids. These kids wouldn't watch them to save their lives (Power Rangers, exhibit one) and most of us would admit they were stupid (i give you James Bond Jr as exhibit two)... but they were marketed to the group at the time that they were for. Cartoons are all but dead in this day and age, taken over by Anime (which I love to watch btw)... but that's what the marketing area wants.

So yes, we should bash everything that deserves it forever... but we cannot take away our love and admiration for those who have come before us and made us BELIEVE...

 

[strike2216]

They have the perfect set-up to right a wrong. Have Goldust avenge Dusty's RKO. Have him come to Raw, challenge Orton, allow him to put on a meaningful match where it somehow looks like he COULD go over, BUT THEN, due to outside interference He get's kicked in the head. Then put him out a short time...Make his stupid ticks disappear, And bring him back, first with CLASSIC Goldust Titan tron promos interrupting whatever Orton happens to be doing on that Monday, Maybe somehow working a Diva in to chill with Goldust much like Marlana used to (Maybe with Orton doing something to the Diva prior to Goldust's return) and then set up a feud. I'm not saying Goldust needs the belt, but maybe somehow at a PPV where he's wrestling HBK, HHH, or Cena, Goldust plays some sort of mind game to cost Orton the Belt, Then in his rematch the next night on Raw he does something different to cost Orton the match. The mind game playing Goldust was so over in the 90s why not try it again? I have a feeling the writers are too lazy to come up with anything close to this or anything else somewhat entertaining for that matter.