Is it our fault selling is dead?

[ghost94]

So many wrestlers todays idea of selling is lay down and act dead for a minute, then get up and act like nothing happened or get hit with the same move 50 times and get back up every time. That's not selling. What was the point of laying down and acting dead in the first place if you can get right back up from it and be fine? If the bump you took didn't hurt you and you won't sell it?

Fans today are smartened up to the business and some argue that kayfabe is dead, but it seems like we have to suspend more disbelief than ever before. You watch a match today and see the horrible psychology, storytelling and selling, and it can't suck you in, it has no credibility, no believability, we know it's 'sports entertainment' and it's not real, but we can go back and watch a match between Bret and Shawn and it suddenly becomes more believable. Why? Because of the selling that was going on. It's like today's wrestling just takes for granted that we're being completely 'sold' on what's going on in the ring. For us to be sold, wrestlers have to sell. Great workers in the business know that the suspension of disbelief can't be taken for granted and you have to work and sell the match. But, when it comes to fans and it comes down to it, I think we as fans want the same thing we wanted 30 years ago when we didn't know the business was a work: we want to have our voices heard, our opinions heard and have an impact on what's going on inside of the ring, whether it's us cheering for Ricky Steamboat to beat Ric Flair or Daniel Bryan to beat Triple H. But with that being said, us cheering for a dozen suplexes in a row from Brock Lesnar, someone to get hit in the head with a sledgehammer and get back up and everything else going on where it's so fast paced, no selling, no psychology being used.

Have we gotten what we wanted and killed selling?

 

[Jeff Deliverer of Mail]

I think one of the biggest problems for -selling- now a days is what the commentary team are selling us. There is a monstrous difference in what J.R was screaming and what we have now. There is hope with Mauro and Graves, but nothing really tops good ol J.R with his,"GOOD GAWD ALMIGHTY AS GAWD AS MY WITNESS HE'S BROKEN IN HALF!!" or "ITS THAT SUM BITCH AUSTIN! THAT RATTLESNAKE STRIKES AGAIN!!".

You get my point, J.R sold the product better than anyone, he'd make Big Show vs Kane match sound exciting in today's wrestling.

 

[ghost94]

I think one of the biggest problems for -selling- now a days is what the commentary team are selling us. There is a monstrous difference in what J.R was screaming and what we have now. There is hope with Mauro and Graves, but nothing really tops good ol J.R with his,"GOOD GAWD ALMIGHTY AS GAWD AS MY WITNESS HE'S BROKEN IN HALF!!" or "ITS THAT SUM BITCH AUSTIN! THAT RATTLESNAKE STRIKES AGAIN!!".

You get my point, J.R sold the product better than anyone, he'd make Big Show vs Kane match sound exciting in today's wrestling.

I definitely agree that commentary needs a boost and needs to focus more on what's going on inside of the ring, it's where the audiences eyes and minds are, not on social media and promoting. There's a time and place for that and it's not during a wrestling match.

But to play devil's advocate, how do you feel when an announcer is talking up a wrestler's injury, that he has a bad knee, an injured knee and... inside the ring the wrestlers aren't telling that story, they're not working a knee, they're just going through the script, doing their moves, getting all their stuff in, and again not selling? Does the focus need to be equally distributed between the wrestlers in the ring selling and the commentary team? Or is one more important than the other at this point in time?

 

[supaman5279]

I did notice you didn't talk about over-selling. Ziggler out there flopping around like a fish. Then there's the super kick issue. To be fair wrestlers in the 60s won matches with basic suplexes and now they've become common use to everyone. But I think the super kick needs to be protected more as it is considered a knockout blow(Kick to the head works in kayfabe as well as real life). As far as the commentary issue I think the problem is the guy with the script. The key problem being the script. If the commentators cannot keep up with the action then it hurts the product and vice versa

 

[dsotm5150]

The art of selling died when matches started dwindling down from 15-20 minutes to 6-8 minutes. When you have to pack 18 minutes worth of wrestling into 8 minutes you dont have time to sell. In a way fans are to blame because we want to see all the big spots make it into a match or you feel cheated right? Well when you don't get the feel that the power moves or even respiration moves do any damage you lose the crowd.

You need the sell to get fans into a match, the tag team match from bash at the beach '96 comes to mind when I think of a good example of how much selling can heat up a crowd....Scott Hall has Sting in a submission hold(I can't think of the name of it, watch the match back you'll know what I'm talking about) they're in the heel corner and Scott is using Nash for leverage while Sting is "blacking out" and macho man is beating the hell out of the turnbuckle and rallying the crowd. The ref raises Sting's arm to see if hes still conscious and every time that arm drops the crowd just gets louder and louder as his arm drops limply 1...2....but on the third drop he saves it last minute and explodes back to life and the roof blows off the building.

 

[agentmichaelscarn]

Yes it's our fault. The crowd nowadays needs action non stop or else they chant "This is boring", they wouldn't know a good story if it hit them in the head. They need action non stop, which is an absolute joke.

 

[Stonz]

When you watch TNA - which I enjoy - there's about 8 people cheering or booing. That whole crowd is just coming in to get out of the sun at Disney. Most of them have NO IDEA what is going on! Not to mention with their tapings those people may see the same guys coming out 2 or 3 times in a day in a few hours, which when you watch it on TV those "2 or 3 times a day" are actually (to us) this week, and next week, and the week after that, etc. if you get the whole taping thing.

That's one thing...... we'll get away from that.

ROH wrestlers probably do the best job at selling than any other show/company. They show on average about 3 matches per hour. THOSE guys still put on the show! WWE and TNA (like mentioned) throw a match out there that lasts about 3-5 minutes - so there's no TIME to sell. ROH, in MY eyes, is the only company that still adheres to the old-school mentality of "selling". I actually enjoy watching that 15-20 min. match from ROH, but I find myself fast-forwarding that 3-6 minute match from WWE on the DVR............. and even then I can tell the wife "Here comes the shitty ending." - and I will stop the FF and watch from that point.

I'm usually right, too. So - tip one up to ROH for keeping that '80's wrestling' theme alive. Too bad no one else does.

Yeah WWE has a 3-hour show and they can have a "long match", but it doesn't tell the story and sell moves like ROH does.

 

[nwocongo]

Yes it's our fault. The crowd nowadays needs action non stop or else they chant "This is boring", they wouldn't know a good story if it hit them in the head. They need action non stop, which is an absolute joke.

Bingo. I won't call them out by name but someone on a Bray Wyatt thread said something along the lines of, "I don't want to see a rest hold, followed by Bray laughing and walking around, you guys call it psychology but that's wrong! It's boring as shit". It's not copy and pasted but that's an accurate paraphrase of what this goober said, so basically as you said, if there isn't non stop high spots it's boring to some "fans". Bray's "walking around and laughing" is playing to the crowd while his opponent SELLS.

I can agree with what dsotm said about the length of matches contributing to lack of selling but there are still occasionally your 25+ minute matches, not nearly as often however.
This raises the question, has the average match length dwindled due to the ADD generation fans who can't watch 3 minutes of amateur style wrestling without chanting some obnoxious bullshit or pulling out their phones to watch a top 10 countdown, or is it just the evolution of the tv programs having an increased focus on 30 minute McMahon/talking segments and various obligatory plugs and promotions?

I also agree with Jeff's point about the commentary, Smackdown is at least 3 times more watchable due to Mauro. I realize Michael Cole has Vince in his ear telling him what to say and to plug the network incessantly but he could at least give the illusion that he's remotely excited by what's happening in the ring.

I tend to place the majority of the blame on the ADD fans though because i like picking on them. I just don't understand what kind of person pays to go to events and spends time watching a PRO WRESTLING program if wrestling holds and in ring psychology are boring. You want nonstop train wrecks and entertainment tailor made for your picky ass? go watch a fucking movie or stick to what you probably do best, playing video games and jerkin your gherkin at your parent's house.

 

[Mantaur Rodeo Clown]

Selling isn't dead.

Watch a Sami Zayn match, who is one of the better sellers I've ever seen. It's no surprise then that Sami's matches are also some of the most compelling and entertaining in wrestling.

 

[Poop Master Flex]

Wrestling has went less realistic and more entertainment, that's just the fact of the matter and because of that the more you overthink and over analyze the more you don't like what you're watching. So many of wrestling's tricks have been exposed over time and because of that it has made many fans think they know everything when in actuality they know little-to-nothing.

To give an example about 9 years ago I started hanging out with a bunch of people who were huge wrestling fans and more or less stuck to the indies. For months they were ranting and raving about a triple threat between Jack Evans vs. Teddy Hart vs. Petey Williams, telling me this is the best match they've ever seen. After a while I ended up watching it and I thought it was complete crap, it was a spot fest with no story and no psychology, it was like they got together and said "lets show off our signatures and finishers tonight" and it got to a point where it was like you weren't really watching a match anymore, you were watching an exhibition of 3 guys doing cool moves, no ones going for pins, no one is selling and there was nothing about it that made it seem like a legit competition. Granted, that was my thoughts on the match but to the other 20+ guys they thought it was the greatest thing ever and unfortunately a lot of wrestling fans have gotten to that point where they just want to see insane shit and not a match.

With that said there are still plenty of fans out there that like a competitive match that has good psychology that tells a good story, I still feel these types of fans are the majority but in this day and age at least 15% (most likely another 5-10% higher) of them fall into that non stop action category that just want to see insanity. Unfortunately though a huge number of that 15% spends a ton of money on wrestling, they're often the ones that end up at live events, they're often the ones that spend money on merchandise and they're often the one's bitching and moaning every time they watch WWE television. Even if 75-80% of the fans are more traditional fans the 20-25% on the other side is a HUGE number and they go to much greater lengths to ensure their voices are heard.

Overall though, even though we have plenty of wrestlers that placate to that non-stop action with little to no psychology theory (way too many if you ask me) there are still a ton out there like Cena, AJ, American Alpha, Bayley, Owens, Zayn, Nakamura, Joe, ect. that can still wrestle a competitive match, that can still tell a story (often by doing very simple and easy things) and know how to think in a ring to get their match and their story over. The non-stop wrestlers will always have their place in this day and age but from what I've seen the main eventers and the higher on the card wrestlers still rely on telling a good story rather than just throwing something at the audience every 5-10 seconds and honestly, I don't see that type of wrestling going by the wayside.

 

[nwocongo]

With that said there are still plenty of fans out there that like a competitive match that has good psychology that tells a good story, I still feel these types of fans are the majority but in this day and age at least 15% (most likely another 5-10% higher) of them fall into that non stop action category that just want to see insanity. Unfortunately though a huge number of that 15% spends a ton of money on wrestling, they're often the ones that end up at live events, they're often the ones that spend money on merchandise and they're often the one's bitching and moaning every time they watch WWE television. Even if 75-80% of the fans are more traditional fans the 20-25% on the other side is a HUGE number and they go to much greater lengths to ensure their voices are heard.

Good point, the lengths these people go to have their insignificant voices heard insures that no one respects them or takes them seriously. People who continue to buy a product that they constantly complain about is in the same line of logic of going back to a restaurant where the food sucked and the waiter told you that you were an insignificant tool who didn't deserve good service.

They can complain all they want, if they still attend shows and subscribe to the Network, Vince has no incentive to cater to their bitching, that seems to be what these dunces don't grasp.

I forget who, it may have been talk is Jericho or another podcast one program that had one of those dirtsheet guests like Wade Keller or someone who was talking about the difference between house show and tv crowds and basically said the majority of the people who come to the Raw events are people that the WWE doesn't really want there anyway.

I thought KO's comment about the Indy/chanting hipster crowds was funny as hell, there was that incident where one of these crowds pretty much disrespected or legitimately didn't know who Paul Ellering was and Owens said something like "that's why I'm so happy I don't have to perform for those people anymore"

While reading your post I thought about the guys who you said who still tell a decent story and sell a bit, these are also guys/girls who deliver decent promos. Could this be because these are experienced performers who let their personalities shine through instead of trying to memorize stuff the scripted stuff the writers come up with? just something that crossed my mind while reading.

 

[Just Do It]

"Fight Forever"

Enough said. The mentality of some fans is absurd. The fact some wrestlers feed into this, even more scary. I'm glad "this is awesome" was never a thing during the Bret Hart / Stone Cold era either. I prefer 90's wrestling fans. Cheers, boos - as it should be.

Don't get me started on "we are awesome" lol

 

[Psykohurricane55]

I think the selling issue is mostly an issue on the indy's like roh and pwg then in wwe and tna since it's not the same type of crowd. I look at a match like aj styles vs roman reigns at payback which was all about selling and telling a story and I was interested with that match because of the psychology in the match. On the other and, they're the much publicize match between richochet and will osprey that even through the match was good, had no psychology or selling and I lost interest after 5 minutes.

The fact is that most indy wrestlers think that the more spot the do the more over they will be and that if they do great moves they don't need to learn psychology is bad because telling a story is the bases of pro wrestling. As far as commentary is concern, I think that it's more a question of wwe having to plug a million thing on raw and smackdown because if you compare this version of micheal cole to 2004's version of micheal cole, the difference is night and day. Back in 2004, cole was a great play by play guy that was able to sell the story in the ring, just watch the kidman vs paul london match from no mercy 200 as an exemple of cole telling the story in the ring. Now the guy is handcuffed because he need to plug everything wwe as to sell and It take away from the matches.