Is Death Really Our Bitch Lover?

[Tenta]

As we're all aware of, there's been a recent rash of celebrities whom have passed away. Of course, we're all saddened to have heard the news of such names as Farrah Fawcett, MJ, Steve McNair, etc. I have found myself mourning these loses in my own separate way. We all have reacted in such different manners to the news in which someone has passed away. Whether we were close to the person, or we never knew the departed on a personal level, we all have our ways of mourning the dead. It's always a sad experience, and even more so when we were close to the unfortunate soul.

However, over the past few days, I've noted something that, to me, is a somewhat curious phenomenon. Though I particularly hold no issue over the matter, I couldn't help but notice that, in the report of Steve McNair's passing, graphic details become the norm. The channel made a concerted effort to allow us all of the details in the matter; down to the gory details in how many times Steve was shot. As I watch footage of the matter, I can't help but notice that a large group surrounded the area, trying to peak in to a scene in which I can only assume they must have heard on the radio, or on TV. I myself am not one for blood or gore, so I wouldn't exactly attempt to steal a peak at the crime scene. However, there seemed to a congregation of individuals who were looking, hoping to see some evidence in the site to put the pieces together for themselves. I myself noted the extreme nature of the scenario, and concluded that I might have glanced at the police investigation. However, I then began to consider all events that seem to attract people in masses. Death scenes in horror films, horrendous car accidents, things of that matter which tend to draw our attention, and cause us to fixate on the scene. Hell, even as "fake" as psychics who channel the dead may seem, we're extremely fascinated by the matter. For some reason, we have to watch the scene, and allow ourselves to be swept away in the state of those around us, all staring at the morbid situation we have placed in front of us.

I then also read an article in which a Michael Jackson memorial is being planned in Staples Center. The event is sold out, and the free tickets that were passed out to get into the actual arena are scarcer to find than water in the desert. I've heard of people that will fly, and even drive, cross country just for a chance to be there that Monday. While I understand how big of a deal Michael was, and I myself admit I mourned his passing, I can't picture myself driving cross country for a memorial. I feel that, for me, it makes more sense to mourn the departed in my own way, be it at Church, listening to the man's music, or perhaps even a discussion with my family. Still, I couldn't even fathom placing all of the time and effort that I've heard certain people plan, simply to go to a memorial. To the best of my understanding, the body won't even be at The Staples Center, and hopefully will have been buried away from the millions of people that seem hell-bent on getting themselves to Los Angeles. And even more perplexing to me, some of the people I know who are going to this weren't even fans of his music. As a matter of fact, certain people (I wouldn't exactly call them "friends") were Jackson detractors for a good portion of their adult lives. I know that we always say we hate funerals, yet when the time comes, we're right there. Now, granted, family and friends are a completely different matter, and I wouldn't even begin to try to tell you how to mourn friends or family. Still, even when a big name passes away, though we might have never known the person personally, we have our tickets, and will even go cross country to witness the event.

Have you ever been to The Haunted Mansion at either Disneyland or Disney World? I merely see it as a decent dark ride, with a bit of dark humor thrown in. Still, people line up from across the block just to go on a ride that's not too exciting, and is one of the most antiquated rides in the park. What is so thrilling on the concept of Death that makes us so intrigued? Hell, look at a man in which most will say is our favorite wrestler, in The Undertaker? Quite a depressing chum by nature, isn't he? Yet, we're extremely fascinated by this character. So fascinated, in fact, that such a character has been around for thirteen years, and in the other portions of his career in which he was not the full "Deadman" gimmick, we either

A. Don't remember one bit.
B. Yearned for him to return to his "Deadman" ways.

Which brings me to this question; is the species of man, Homo sapiens, fixated on the concept of death? What brings us to watch these reports on CNN, even through the gritty details, and hear the grisly details of one's demise? And it doesn't even have to be a celebrity; newscasts report on deaths/murders within our own communities, and though we might be horrified by the idea that a murderer lives close by, we still watch, to understand the untimely demise of individuals. Is there something about death that, while it frightens us, we are somewhat attracted to? Do we have an instinctual fascination to the paranormal, and to the disembodied?

My theory is simple; that we, as human beings, are curious creatures. We have already explored most of what there is to this world, from a physical standpoint, and have already conquered each mountain and ocean the world has to offer us. Remember when climbing Mt. Everest was such a huge deal? I mean, granted, it still is, but people rarely take it in the same manner in which we do now. Anyway, this physical world has been charted, discovered, and mapped for a good portion of the 16th Century. Still, however, there is an entire world in which we have yet to establish a meaningful form of contact with, and a universe in which we have yet to charter. I understand that you can't exactly charter Death in a physical matter, yet for centuries, humans have desired to reach contact with the paranormal universe. My argument is that it's based upon our nature to be utterly fascinated by that in which he have yet to discover. While man cannot discover death from a physical standpoint, there still stands to reason that we may be able to reach another world, and make contact with the dead. And until the period in which we are allowed to make said contact, we will always be fascinated by that in which we can't discover. And due to this reasoning, while we may hold a deep fear for death, I feel that we're strangely attracted to the concept of death, and that we always will be, until our own dying day.

Perhaps the topic is a bit macabre, but I simply have two questions:

Are we, as human beings, fixated upon the concept of Death?

If so, then why is this the case?

(Actually, I'll throw one out for those that say we aren't fascinated by death. That being, why do we perform such customs upon one's death, especially in relation to how the media portrays death)

 

[Nate DaMac]

Ok well this is my first journey into The Cigar Lounge, so I will do my best to not come off as an idiot. I will admit, I am one who is fascinated with death. Be it real or a drama like Law And Order, I get hooked. It's almost unexplainable, but I never pass up the opportunity to learn the gritty details. I want to know what happened when someone in my neighborhood is murdered, I wanna know what was going on in McNair's house before the police arrived. I'm not into blood and gore, but more into gathering the facts behind the event. You couldn't keep me away from a computer after the Beniot incident. I guess in my case it is the subject of murder more than death itself. I just cannot comprehend what must be going on in a person's life to resort to the lowest of solutions. So I watch and surf the web in search for a way to understand the mindset it takes to take another human beings life.

 

[Tenta]

And admittedly, this is something I struggle with, as well. It's something that is extremely macabre to admit, but I'm just like anyone else that has to see what a car crash looks like, even if it means I'm bottling up traffic from the beginning of I-95. It's a depressing way to look at it, but we are fascinated by death.

And Nate, you just brought up an amazing point, which I neglected to mention ealier in my post. For us, the more grisly the death is, the more we are interested. Consider Chris Benoit, or the OJ Trial. The OJ Simpson Trial was a headline for about a year for newspapers, and everything about the murder story just absolutely fascinated us. It may have horrified us to no lengths, and we may have never wished this upon anybody, but we still watched intently, and continued to do so for a good portion of the time.

So to throw out another question... Why is this the case?

 

[X]

Our culture, and really all cultures over the course of human civilization has been obsessed with death because of it's uncertainty. It's one of the very few remaining variables of life of which human beings are completely clueless, and will always be.

The fascination with death has as much to do with a questioning of the afterlife as it does with the actual failure of the body. Thousands of religions and philosophies have attempted to atleast attempt to give an answer to the question of the afterlife, but none of them can ever truly be proven right or wrong. It's the uncertainty that peaks our interest in death.

As for the media's obsession with death and it's gorey details, you can't really blame them. They're only doing their jobs, and I feel that the public has a right to know everything, and not just have certain facts ommitted because they're deemed to be "too much" for our weak and feeble little minds. I'll decide what is and isn't appropriate for myself, thank you very much.

Very interesting topic Tentzilla, and a very deep and introspective one at that. This may or may not descend into a discussion of the afterlife before you know it.

 

[Tenta]

Ah yes, my friend X. He who is of profound thought, and yet a face of beer. Actually, a discussion on the afterlife may be exactly the way to take this son of a gun. So let's give it a shot, shall we? I want to highlight specifically two things you've said

Our culture, and really all cultures over the course of human civilization has been obsessed with death because of it's uncertainty. It's one of the very few remaining variables of life of which human beings are completely clueless, and will always be.

That's actually an outstanding theory, X, and may force me to mend my beliefs a bit on our obsession with the paranormal. I also feel that, to some extent, it does come from the somewhat flippant nature of death. However, we as humans also have the basic need to protect ourselves, even from such external forces such as death. Which leads me to a theory I've also weighed in and out.

Namely, that we also look to the after life, as a way to warn us of coming danger. Truly, those that have perished have met some hand of fate, in which even as random as it is, experiencing this hand of fate provides us with an eternal knowledge the likes of which we can not know in this mortal life. Be it God, Buddha, Moses, Pee Wee Herman, I really don't know exactly what everyone believes in. Yet, we yearn for some type of discovery of the hand of fate, so that we may protect ourselves from the dangers that arise from fate's hand. Again, this theory heavily indulges the subconscious, and Freud would probably have a field day with my theory. However, I believe there's sort of a desire on man's part to understand the ways of fate and Death, as they alone make us so fascinated, yet also bring us to the mercy of whatever these powers choose

The fascination with death has as much to do with a questioning of the afterlife as it does with the actual failure of the body. Thousands of religions and philosophies have attempted to atleast attempt to give an answer to the question of the afterlife, but none of them can ever truly be proven right or wrong. It's the uncertainty that peaks our interest in death.

Which brings us to this ultimate question; Can we possibly understand the afterlife?

At heart, I myself am a bit of an Epicurean, and feel that one can only know of something when one senses it. Namely, one can not know of death until has experienced death on a first hand basis. However, since we can not reflect on these theorems of Death, due to us... Well, dying... We seek some sort of assistance in understanding the wonders of Death. And with this concept in mind, we find ourselves looking for assistance from those that have passed away, in the dire hope of understanding death.

This will probably get into a discussion on the after life, but I don't want anyone forgetting the main subject of this little discussion. I look forward to hearing X's ideas.

 

[Shadowmancer]

I am pretty sure that both Shockey and I have a fairly strong understanding of older cultures, Shockey with his degree and me with my Ancient History and History degree. effectively most cultures that we know of have viewed death in slightly different ways but there is a fascination with it in some ways.

Greeks viewed the afterlife with there being generally speaking 2/3 areas, something similar to what Catholics believe and is probably where a majority of those ideas come from, Tartarus- Not a good place to go. And the Elysian Fields where the Heroes of the Greeks went, I put in the third bit because I am not sure what it was for the ordinary people. But there were beliefs about there being places where you could enter the underworld. you can see the culture that surrounds death such as the payment of the ferryman Charon through the application of coins on the eyelids of the dead. Though they also had a fear of zombies so they cremated the people which leads to one of my favourite Greek stories about Tyrants, Periander the Tyrant of Corinth's wife died, he had hidden his money, he needed to find it to pay off debts to another power, so he summoned his wife to find out where he hid it, to prove it was her, she said that Periander had put his loaves in a cold oven, she wouldn't tell him where the gold was because she was cold and naked in the afterlife because she was not burned with clothes on. So Periander has an idea he gets all the women in Corinth to come to the "palace" he then ordered them all to strip down and put all their clothes in a pile, he then burned them and then found out where he had hid his gold. There is more to the story and that can be read in Herodotus, But it does show a belief in the way in which the dead were treated in Greece.

In Rome it was illegal to bury someone within the city walls but there is so much archaeological evidence coming out of central latium to show how the latins treated their dead though it is iffy on what it does tell us due to poorer people generally putting more in graves to make people out as important, but in graves from a certain age, which at this point I can't remember off the top of my head, think it is the 2nd latial age, but important foreign items were being found alongside the dead not just the previous stuff of pottery and miniature weapons.

Other cultures had other things, Celts had the throwing of weapons(that had been ceremonially broken) into water as an offering to the gods of the underworld for safe passage. Egyptian Pharohs were buried with a lot of their shit as were a lot of other cultures.

Victorian Gothic literature has a strong connection with the macabre and death. Edgar Allen Poe's work is rife with it.

x said it when he said it is to do with the uncertainty of what happens after.

 

[LigerBomb]

Question 1 Answer: Yea, for the most part we are...

Question 2 Answer: There's no real deep secret to this; We are the only creatures who can perceive the concept of linear progressive time and the finality of death, that we all (will) have a past, present, future and ultimately a corresponding death. Once we die we've no concrete factual evidence of what (if anything) comes next. Toss those two facts into a bag, shake it up, and boom you have a species that for the most part is fascinated with the concept of death, and the drive to understand it, come to terms with the eventuality of it -for ourselves and everyone/thing we've ever known and loved-, and try to stave it off for as long as possible or eliminate it outright.

 

[SK]

Are we, as human beings, fixated upon the concept of Death?

If so, then why is this the case?

(Actually, I'll throw one out for those that say we aren't fascinated by death. That being, why do we perform such customs upon one's death, especially in relation to how the media portrays death)

Good topic, i'd have to say yes, we as humans are fixated by death, this is because death is one of the most mysterious and uncertain aspects of our lives. See a lot of things in life can be predicted, controlled and have fixed aspect. For the majority of us this includes, love, education, work and socialisation. We have control over most of these aspects of our lives and when they happen, or don't happen.

However, the difference with death is that no-one knows what will happen afterwards, and it's impossible to know, and this is what fascinates people the most, it's what keeps people in fear of death, and its probably the biggest reason why people think about death. This is because if people knew what happened after we died, there would be no need to worry or wonder, but this is different with for example, work, we know what happens if we quit our job or get fired, or love, we know what happens after a divorce or seperation and we have some extent of control over these aspects, so there is no need be fixated.

So overall I think the answer to your second question is, we are so fixated on death because we have no control over it and we don't know for sure what will happen after you die, this is why people think about it, because it is such a universal experience, yet it is still unknown and unavoidable.

 

[Nate DaMac]

Ok then. I love reading this thread. My respect for Shadow just multiplied ten fold. A lot of intelligent discussion. That being said, I really don't have much of an opinion on the afterlife. I completely understand people's beliefs and desire to know what happens when we pass, but I just don't believe in anything supernatural. Call me close minded, but I have never seen any evidence to lead me to believe anything to the contrary. I have always taken the theory of evolution to carry more weight than any religion. On the subject of death again, after thinking about my previous stance, I thought of something else to add. There is one side of the spectrum I am not capable of looking into. And that would be the murder of a child. Be it real or fake, I have no interest in it. In my eyes, there is absolutely no reason behind it at all, so unlike other cases, I do not follow up on cases like these. It makes my stomache turn. Nothing appealing to me to try to understand the mindset of a person who could kill a child.

 

[Azrael Cain]

The answers to your questions are simple ones, sir.

1. Yes, we are fixated upon the concept of death (but we are fixated only when it impacts us in any way at all); and
2. we are fixated so because it's in our self interest to do so.

No one wants to die because no one knows what is after life. And as rational (although that can be debated can it not?) creatures and beings blessed with the ability to reason, try hard as we might, we cannot figure out what life is, how it works, why it ends and what occurs after. And we fear what we do not understand....

Some fixate heavily, and develop phobias and never leave the house.
Others fixate when it is convenient for them, so to speak, when they are reminded of their own mortality (such as when someone close to them dies, or something of a more personal nature).

For the remainder of the time, most people do not think about the fact that somewhere, someone is dying (or being born) right at this moment. That is a "heavy" (for lack of better terms) thought to consider, to allow to enter into one's consciousness. People, for the most part, concern themselves with themselves, not others. It is only when the suffering of others impedes "My" pleasure, and only then, do I try and do something.

The death of Michael Jackson had no effect on me whatsoever. True, I was saddened at the loss of a great musical talent, and it reminded me yet again that all things and people die, but I did not know him nor he me, and therefore it meant nothing. Death is a part of life, but human being value [their] life so much that we fixate on maintaining our pleasure as long as possible, blocking out any and all unpleasantness.

And when we are reminded of our mortality, we celebrate the person who reminded us, hoping it somehow adds to our lifespan. Which is, of course, ludicrous.

 

[JenovasWitness]

Human beings are aware that they come with an expiry date. I think that this can be a driving force for one to make an impact while they have time left as no one really wants to become just another statistic.

Death is a mystery as no one truly knows what happens when they get there. Some people choose to take a leap of faith and believe that there is something beyond the grave, be it Heaven, Hell, Reincarnation or Purgatory. Others believe that it is a period at the end of a run on sentence. Either way, human beings are trying to avoid it, prolong the inevitability of it, study it, hypothesize about it. No one will be able to tell what really happens...until it happens.