In Their Prime, or Old Age

[Saiquan]

We all sit back and talk about this guy and that guy retiring but the question is when should they and here is my statement:

As you know about 20 years ago ric flair was the greatest "wrestler" of all time. But when it was time for him to retire ric really couldn't wrestle like he could back at Bash at the Beach 1994. So that brings a question should Ric had retired 10 years ago when he could still put on a decent match?

Bret Hart was simply "the best there is, the best there was, and the best there ever will be." Bret was forced into a retirement due to a concussion at Starrcade 1999 after a mule kick from Goldberg in a beautiful World Heacyweight Championship. Bret Hart was still in his prime when he had to retire. Now once again ask yourself would you rather see Ric Flair or Bret Hart in a wrestling match?

All im asking is that becuse we have great wrestlers in WWE such as Shawn Michaels, The Undertaker, Rey Mysterio(even though he's only 33 he has been doing this since he was 16 his time is near), Batista, Chris Jericho, Triple H, etc. Should some of these guys retire now while they can still put on extrordinary matches(Taker,Shawn,Rey,Chris) or wait til there older with a legacy?

 

[Shawns#1 Fan]

first let me start by saying great thread man. But if i was a wrestler and had to choose i would choose in the prime. It makes since simply because when you retire in your prime you still got a little left if you want to make a return knida like Brock Lesnar. When he is 35 if he still knows how to wrestle can come back and put on a great match and have a lot of fan fare. Which i would rather see Bret Hart in a wrestling match besides Ric Flair or Hulk Hogan(unless its against Stone Cold Steve Austin), simply because his last match was good and its been awhile since he's wrestled

 

[HBK-aholic]

Wrestlers go through many periods in their career. Their prime is merely one of them. And just because a wrestler is not in their prime, doesn't mean they still aren't brilliant. There's the time leading up to their 'prime' and the time afterwards, where they're still putting on great matches but not to the extent many fans are used to. Then there's 'old age' as you put it, where the wrestler is getting by on their legacy alone, and are giving nothing new to the business.

Ric Flair should have retired before he did. I'm not one of those that say 10 years ago, but I think definitely 5. And I say this because people forget how good the wrestler was before they moved into this period, and they destroy what was otherwise a great legacy. People now, call Flair overrated. And that's because they have forgotten about how good he was. They remember his last few years, and then hear people calling him great. Those things obviously do not work together in the brain. It's saddening to see this happen. Flair won't be remembered as the great he was by ost of the fans watching today.

Because this thread is so far Shawn fans, I'll bring him into it. I'd be willing to say up until about a year ago the man was still in his 'prime'. Still putting on great matches and stealing the show, just as he always has. In the last year that's changed. And I'm not saying he still doesn't have great matches, because he does. I'm saying he's taken a back seat in the business. He's not really in the Main Event scene anymore, which is shown from Survivor Series and Raw, with his matches being the first on the show. However, this isn't to say he should retire now. He still has something in him, and he can still go out there and work that crowd. He can have them on their feet needing the Heartbreak Kid. And he delivers. People can usually only stay in this part of their career for a couple of years at the most. With that being said, he should be looking to retire in the next year or so. It's a terrible thought, but what happened to Flair cannot happen to him.

What I'm trying to say is I don't think wrestlers should wake up one day in the middle of their prime and think "I'm going to retire today so I'm remembered as great". But It hink they should know when to give up, and it's when they can no longer go out there and there's a chance they'll be the best on the show. Flair stopped doing that a few years ago. Shawn can still do it.

 

[Slyfox696]

First of all, I'd rather watch a Bret Hart match than a Ric Flair match, no matter when it was. Ric Flair is overrated.

Second of all, people who use the same avatar over and over annoy me. For example, the first three people in this thread have the same avatar. Try a little originality people.

Finally, and more on topic, a "prime" is not always what people think it is. Many people tend to think a wrestler's prime is that time where he is most athletic and putting on his best matches. It's not. A prime is that time where he is making his company the most money he will ever make for them. And thus, this age could be 28, like the Rock, of 38 like Triple H. Generally, a wrestling fan will never know a wrestler's prime until after the fact, because the wrestling business has a funny way of recreating itself all the time.

But, for argument's sake, let's say we know when a person's prime is. Should they retire in their prime? Why? For what reason? So people who take the wrestling business more seriously than they should will think good things about them? That's ridiculous. A wrestler should retire when HE wants to retire, assuming a wrestling company still wants him around. While Ric Flair was atrocious, there was still an audience for him, and the WWE still wanted him, so it made no sense to retire. On the other hand, someone like the Ultimate Warrior should have retired years ago, because there hasn't been an audience for him in 15 years, and no promoter really wants him.

So, should they retire, to serve our desires? Not a bit. They should retire when THEY want to.

 

[Saiquan]

Ric Flair should have retired before he did. I'm not one of those that say 10 years ago, but I think definitely 5. And I say this because people forget how good the wrestler was before they moved into this period, and they destroy what was otherwise a great legacy. People now, call Flair overrated. And that's because they have forgotten about how good he was. They remember his last few years, and then hear people calling him great. Those things obviously do not work together in the brain. It's saddening to see this happen. Flair won't be remembered as the great he was by ost of the fans watching today.

Because this thread is so far Shawn fans, I'll bring him into it. I'd be willing to say up until about a year ago the man was still in his 'prime'. Still putting on great matches and stealing the show, just as he always has. In the last year that's changed. And I'm not saying he still doesn't have great matches, because he does. I'm saying he's taken a back seat in the business. He's not really in the Main Event scene anymore, which is shown from Survivor Series and Raw, with his matches being the first on the show. However, this isn't to say he should retire now. He still has something in him, and he can still go out there and work that crowd. He can have them on their feet needing the Heartbreak Kid. And he delivers. People can usually only stay in this part of their career for a couple of years at the most. With that being said, he should be looking to retire in the next year or so. It's a terrible thought, but what happened to Flair cannot happen to him.

What I'm trying to say is I don't think wrestlers should wake up one day in the middle of their prime and think "I'm going to retire today so I'm remembered as great". But It hink they should know when to give up, and it's when they can no longer go out there and there's a chance they'll be the best on the show. Flair stopped doing that a few years ago. Shawn can still do it.

First let me start by saying that i love having these discussions with you. First im saying do you think wrestlers should retire when they can still put on decent matches are not. Flair should have retired atleast 5 or 7 years ago as you said.

As far as Shawn goes he still has alot of years left in him and he doesn't know it. I tell him that everytime i visit his house with my father. Shawn in my oppinion went first in Survivor Series beacuase he has to set the bar, and he did nothing topped his match wrestlin wise.

What i was trying to say is should a wrestler retire when a they can still put on decent matches such as... i was going to say shawn but wrestlin wise who can top him honestl but should they wait a few years

 

[Lee]

Lets get some different avatars in this thread ey?

How a thread about retiring in their prime has become a one about how 'great' HBK is, but as ever I digress. On topic...

Should a wrestler retire in his prime? It's a hard question to answer you have to look at it from a few ways;

1) The wrestler knows they are in their prime and wants to hang up their boots.

The perfect example of this is The Rock,he knew there wasn't much for him left to do in the ring,after all he was the most electrifying man in sports entertainment. So he went and did Hollywood, his next step and only time will tell whether he will return to the ring or not. Either way he will go down as a WWE legend.

2) The wrestler knows they are in their prime, but injury stops them.

Stone Cold Steve Austin is my example here, after the botch piledriver from Owen, it shortened his in ring career. Did this have an effect on his legacy? Know, again another legend, he'll ref at Cyber Sunday, occasionally stunner someone, he's retired from wrestling itself, but still shows his face.

3) The fans think the wrestler has peaked, but he himself knows he has not.

The prime example would be Triple H here,I remember about the time of the invasion, where people were saying after this HHH can't go any further really. Seven years later and he's still on top of the game, pun fully intended.

4) The one who just won't go away.

What I mean by this is the wrestler loves the business, they do it because they love it and they will retire when they want to even when they're in their sixties.

What I think is that as long as you love the business, and love wrestling, stay in until you can't physically go on. It's not about age, Batista's one of the 'new generation' and he's forty in 2 months time!

PS I think this should be in either old school or general wrestling...

 

[HBK-aholic]

First let me start by saying that i love having these discussions with you. First im saying do you think wrestlers should retire when they can still put on decent matches are not. Flair should have retired atleast 5 or 7 years ago as you said.

There's a difference between having decent matches and being in their prime, which was what my opening paragraph was discussing. Wrestlers shouldn't retire in their prime. Unless they have an injury that stops them e.g. Bret Hart. Wrestlers should stop when they know they can't go on and wrestle to the best of their ability. They should stop when they feel it's time to stop.

As far as Shawn goes he still has alot of years left in him and he doesn't know it.

"He doesn't know it" because he's the only person who knows the pain he feels when he's out there. Bad back, bad knees, and look at the amazing matches he still has. Imagine how much that takes out of him. And his children are his life, he doesn't want it to get to the stage he's too hurt to run around playing football with them, or can barely stand up from his back being too injured from wrestling longer than he should. He knows when he should give up, not us.

I tell him that everytime i visit his house with my father.

You have about 10 seconds to PM his address before I come to your house and torture it out of you.

Shawn in my oppinion went first in Survivor Series beacuase he has to set the bar, and he did nothing topped his match wrestlin wise.

Shawn didn't choose to go first. But I think him going first shows us that he's not bothered abotu being a main-eventer anymore. But it also shows a lot about the business. There is A LOT of talent in it, and card position means less than it did before. But also that there match wasn't as important as the others on paper. I'm in no way saying it was a bad match - it was one of the best matches of the night.

What i was trying to say is should a wrestler retire when a they can still put on decent matches such as... i was going to say shawn but wrestlin wise who can top him honestl but should they wait a few years

No one can, and will ever, top Shawn. But they should wait a few years after their prime, which as I said above, is different to putting on a decent match. Shawn is no longer in his prime, but as we agreed above, his match at SS was great.

 

[Danmen001]

Sly is right (should have seen that coming really). People should retire when they watn to retire. Simply, if someone still loves to get in the ring and some people still care for them, go for it.

Why not? For instance, some of us love watching wrestling. Now for me personally, especially being in an anti-wrestling community (erm, Australia FTW?), I put up with people making fun of wrestling all the time. Doesn't bother me, I'm still going to watch wrestling. I'm not going to stop doing something because some people don't think I should. Some people are still with me on that as well, so I'm not alone.

You could also think of someone like The Rock and say, should have he retired when he did? That brings in a whole other debate of course, but he still would have made money - he just wanted to bring in the dough elsewhere. He didn't have the passion, so he left. Everyone should be fine with his choice.

Basically, when they feel like it.

 

[Shocky]

I think when a wrestler stays around to long, it does tarnish their legacy, for a while anyway. I think in time after that Wrestler retire, we start forgetting about the bad matches they had the last, oh 5 to 15 years of their careers (Ric Flair), and start to remember them for what they were.

For me, I rremember wrestlers mostly from their primes, but their athletic primes. I don't care who makes the most money, I care who puts on the best matches. For me, someone like HBK was in his athletic prime when he was the Boy Toy up until 1995. After that, I haven't been too impressed with him. He's good, but his athletic prime was a decade and a half ago. Same with Bret, but I think his athletic prime and the time he was putting on his best matches was from 1991 - 1994, with a great year in 1997. For me, I remember Steve Austin from 1997, and that's the image I have. I didn't like 1998 or 99 Austin.

I think it comes down to the individual. I see people in different lights then others. I think a wrestler can stay around too long and ruin his career. Eventually though, I think people will begin to forget the bad years of a good wrestler and start to remember the good year smore.

 

[The Undercover Man]

I think these guys should retire when they personally feel they can't continue anymore or they can't keep up with the younger guys in the ring. Mark Callaway is one of these guys who has said that and by his recent matches and performances i can't see him retiring soon. Ric Flair i think was obviously way past his prime in his last few years in the WWE, does'nt this beg the question that all he was after was a little more cash? Or was he really helping put talent over and improving the brand he was on as a whole?

There is still plenty guys who in my opinion are still in their prime like Edge, Jericho and Cena. what would happen if they all suddenly said "i'm gonna retre now"? WWE would be a lesser show because of it and it just would'nt be logical for them to retire at their respetcive ages. I think retiring in "old age" is better then retiring in your Prime.

There is one problem with carrying on into old age, what if the wrestlers can't put on a match anymore and are just used for promos or mic segments? So say if we use Ric Flair for example, say if he was in WWE now. Would he be classed as "hogging the spotlight" as appose to putting young talent over? Its a very intresting subject that can have all types of answers.

 

[HBK-aholic]

Ric Flair i think was obviously way past his prime in his last few years in the WWE, does'nt this beg the question that all he was after was a little more cash? Or was he really helping put talent over and improving the brand he was on as a whole?

I think he just loved the business. Wrestling is all Flair had known, it's what his life revolved around. To take such a huige step and leave that would have been daunting. And I think that above all else was why it took him so long to do it, rather than being a financial reason.

There is one problem with carrying on into old age, what if the wrestlers can't put on a match anymore and are just used for promos or mic segments?

I think this is when they should know it's time to hang up their boots. I said in my first post they should know, and I think this would be a very clear hint that now's the time to leave and let someone else fill your shoes.

 

[My$terio_Fan]

To me there is no clear cut answer to this question, and neither would make the fans happy. You have guys like The Rock, Lesnar, Lashley, ect all leaving during their prime to do other things and all people are called sell outs and are treated like shit from fans. The other side you have guys like Flair, HBK, The Undertaker, ect all being bitch at for being out of their prime and being told they should get out. So really there is no correct answer either way fans are going to bitch and complain.

For me, I say stay in the WWE as long as you want as long as you have passion for the business, the fans want you, and you contribute something to the product. People bitch about HBK being passed his prime and sruff but the man can still put on better matches than half the roster, and also he can contribute to putting new stars over and help the younger guys out. He isn't always in the mainevent scene, and his will lose cleanly to people and is not hurting the product. So I say stay as long as you love wrestling and as long as you are brining something to the table. If your just here to make a paycheck and are hurting the overall show then leave please.

 

[Saiquan]

There's a difference between having decent matches and being in their prime, which was what my opening paragraph was discussing. Wrestlers shouldn't retire in their prime. Unless they have an injury that stops them e.g. Bret Hart. Wrestlers should stop when they know they can't go on and wrestle to the best of their ability. They should stop when they feel it's time to stop.

Why not? like someone said earlier that the rock retired in his prime and no matter how much you deny it you would love to see the rock in atleast one more match.

"He doesn't know it" because he's the only person who knows the pain he feels when he's out there. Bad back, bad knees, and look at the amazing matches he still has. Imagine how much that takes out of him. And his children are his life, he doesn't want it to get to the stage he's too hurt to run around playing football with them, or can barely stand up from his back being too injured from wrestling longer than he should. He knows when he should give up, not us.

First of all Shawn has doubted his self plenty of times when you talk to him about his matches. We know he can still put on a hell of a show but he sometime doubts himself. Plus he already limps around his own home and Cameron always says "My daddy is hurting know, come back tomorrow" Its relly cute.

You have about 10 seconds to PM his address before I come to your house and torture it out of you.

You know i've been to his like 12 times this year and i couldn't tell you his address. But i could tell you how to get there.

Shawn didn't choose to go first. But I think him going first shows us that he's not bothered abotu being a main-eventer anymore. But it also shows a lot about the business. There is A LOT of talent in it, and card position means less than it did before. But also that there match wasn't as important as the others on paper. I'm in no way saying it was a bad match - it was one of the best matches of the night.

Maybe your not sure what the Mainevent means as it can mean alot of things. In my eye the Mainevent is the show that everybody remembers. In my oppinion shawn has been the mainevent quite often this year

No one can, and will ever, top Shawn. But they should wait a few years after their prime, which as I said above, is different to putting on a decent match. Shawn is no longer in his prime, but as we agreed above, his match at SS was great.

While i will agree that Shawns prime past maybe 3 years ago he still puts on the best show and he shouldn't retire in his prime

 

[HBK-aholic]

Why not? like someone said earlier that the rock retired in his prime and no matter how much you deny it you would love to see the rock in atleast one more match.

I don't remember denying that. But The Rock could have gone further if he'd have stayed in the business. Hence my point.

First of all Shawn has doubted his self plenty of times when you talk to him about his matches. We know he can still put on a hell of a show but he sometime doubts himself. Plus he already limps around his own home and Cameron always says "My daddy is hurting know, come back tomorrow" Its relly cute.

God that kid is gorgeous. And I'm sure he has doubted himself. My point is, as huge Shawn fans of course we're going to say "He has years left in him" because we don't want him to leave. But yo proved my point in saying he limps around his house - he won't want to be like that forever. He's obviously in pain.

You know i've been to his like 12 times this year and i couldn't tell you his address. But i could tell you how to get there.

Why is my PM box still empty?

Maybe your not sure what the Mainevent means as it can mean alot of things. In my eye the Mainevent is the show that everybody remembers. In my oppinion shawn has been the mainevent quite often this year

The Main event of a show is generally the last show. The main event, recently with John Cena, is what the industry think of as the main event. While I agree people remember Shawns matches, he's not specifically in the main event.

While i will agree that Shawns prime past maybe 3 years ago he still puts on the best show and he shouldn't retire in his prime

...Which I've been saying all along.

 

[RBH]

Even though wrestling is an entertainment business.....wrestlers active lives are very similar to that of professional athletes in sports...they are newbies and unknowns when they start out still needing to tes out their wings. Then they get to the so called "prime age" which would be 25-32 in almost all sports. They make the most money and they are the most watched athletes. Then once they go over 32, they are still good but they are not as ferquently watched and many people overlook them. Look at the NFL's Kurt Warner and Kerry Collins, both are over 35 and having the best seasons of their careers. That goes to show just because you get older, doesn't necissarily mean you have to get worse.

 

[Tim]

They should retire when they feel like they can't do any more for the company, and when they feel like it's the right time to leave. If you continue when you cannot do any more, you are basically just holding others down, and taking up space in the company and on PPV's. Like Ric Flair did, because he couldn't really put anyone over near the end of his career, yet he still got spots on PPV's. There was no point to it. So you could go on and on about wrestlers that should've retired earlier, should've retired later, but the thing is that they felt that they had to leave, so they did.

 

[shingi]

I personaly think that whether you retire early depends on how you feel and what your physical condition is at the current time in the company.The Rock was an incredibly talented and charismatic individual and there were many opportunities for him thus he left and went to the movie business which he is doing fairly well in making some quality films.

Then you have guys like Steve Austin who sustain an injury just before their big push.But he knew that when Owen Hart botched that piledriver that his career would be shortened at his peak. And it did after he got his ass whooped at mania xix. But he was a great wrestler at his best.

Then you have people like flair who have so many great matches in his prime and are regarded as one of the best ever but carry on and have some terrible matches thus tarnishing his reputation.

And you also have guys like HBK who can still put on great matches but dismantle his body putting themselves on the line for the enjoyment of the fans but know that their time is coming.

 

[Bobdx]

People may say that flair looked bad in the last couple of years but the crowd and me still love the naich, and i think as long as the spirt is willing a wrestler can go to up to about 65ish, and it wont matter if they cant perform as well as they previosly did in their prime, if they still have that charimsa and love for the industry i say let them continue to do what they love best.

 

[agentmichaelscarn]

Personally I would prefer wrestlers retire when they're not too old because I dont like watching old guys that look sloppy and slow wrestle. Even though I prefer they dont I think in general as long as people still want to see you, still care about you and your not hurting the company at all then you should go as long as you want. Now if you're 60 years old and look crippled in the ring and are getting little to no reaction then you should probably hang it up. Or if you still want to be paid, booked and treated like you are 30 yet are 50 and look terrible then you should probably retire too.