Illmatic vs. Reasonable Doubt

[SK]

When it comes to hip hop albums, there's always disagreements, but one of the biggest, is the argument as to which is better, Nas' Illmatic or Jay-Z's Reasonable Doubt.

Both albums are classics and most people would agree the best work from each artist. Both albums were debut albums and have great critical acclaim, they were released within 2 years of each other and both artists were young up and comers from New York. We all know the past history between Jay & Nas, they were at war for years and were both fighting to become the king of New York. However, neither artist has managed to live up to their respective debut albums, but which album was better?

Note: I don’t want this thread to delve into the argument that Jay has sold out and therefore this album gets discredited, your opinion should come purely from the music on each album, imagine nothing else happened or was released after each of their albums, try and have an objective opinion. There is nothing worse than people using this argument to discredit Reasonable Doubt.

Now, lets have a quick look at each album;

Nas - Illmatic (1994);

1. The Genesis
2. N.Y. State of Mind
3. Life's a Bitch
4. World Is Yours, The
5. Halftime
6. Memory Lane (Sittin' in da Park)
7. One Love
8. One Time 4 Your Mind
9. Represent
10. It Ain't Hard to Tell

Illmatic, one of the most acclaimed albums in the hip hop world, Nas demonstrated great multi syllabic lyrics here, rapping about life on the streets of New York. This album gave us such great songs as; N.Y. State of Mind, Memory Lane and The World is Yours (which even got sampled by Jay-Z himself). Without a doubt this album will always be ranked highly for it’s powerful street driven lyrics, with every song on this album being quotable and memorable.

Jay-Z - Reasonable Doubt (1996);

1. Can't Knock the Hustle - (remix)
2. Politics as Usual
3. Brooklyn's Finest - (featuring The Notorious B.I.G.)
4. Dead Presidents II
5. Feelin' It - (featuring Mecca)
6. D'Evils
7. 22 Two's
8. Can I Live
9. Ain't No ***** - (featuring Foxy Brown)
10. Friend or Foe
11. Coming of Age - (featuring Memphis Bleek)
12. Cashmere Thoughts
13. Bring It On - (featuring Big Jaz/Sauce Money)
14. Regrets
15. Can I Live II - (bonus track, featuring Memphis Bleek)

Reasonable Doubt, easily Jay-Z’s finest album, met with critical acclaim despite it’s poor chart performance (compared to his other albums). This album focussed heavily on Jay’s rise to the top, the struggles he faced and the dark side of the life he was living. This album gave us some classics tracks in; Can I Live, Dead Presidents II and Brooklyn’s Finest. This album showed that Jay-z was set for big things with his great Mafioso style of rapping, focusing on his travel to the top and his desire for material gain. This album will also be considered one of the best hip hop albums ever beause it showed that Jay-z could hang with Notorious, he could freestyle, give a good mainstream effort whilst deliver some gritty lyrical masterpieces.


Every hip hop fan knows these albums through and through and knows that they are classics and I like most love both albums. However, I am going to choose Reasonable Doubt. For me this is the essential hip hop album, it’s got the mix of underground and mainstream perfectly, it has great good mainstream songs like Can't Knock the Hustle and Feelin' It, but it’s also got the more gritty better lyrical songs in D’Evils, Dead Presidents II and Regrets. Jay-Z showed he could hang with Notorious on the mic in ‘Brooklyn’s Finest’, showed his restyling ability in ‘22 Two’s’ and gave me my favourite song in ‘Can I Live’. And for these reasons, Reasonable Doubt just beats Illmatic for me.
I’m not discrediting Illmatic in any way, but I just feel Reasonable Doubt has more to offer, I think Jay-Z’s delivery and lyrics on Reasonable Doubt are just slightly better than Nas on Illmatic.

Remember, no spam, give your opinions and back them up, also feel free to debate any of my points. Anyway, what do you think is the better album, Illmatic or Reasonable Doubt?

 

[X]

Great thread, but unfortunately I completely disagree with you here SK. Mainly because Jay-Z has to be the most overrated rapper in the history of hip-hop. He's really just not very good. That said, Reasonable Doubt is a damn good album. There are quite a few good songs on there.

Unfortunately, it just doesn't compare to Illmatic. At all. Perhaps I'm biased in my love for Nas, but to me Illmatic isn't just a great hip-hop album, it's a serious contender to be the greatest hip-hop album ever made. Nas proved himself to be not only one of the best new rappers in the game, but potentially the best in the game. That's right, I rank Nas right alongside Biggie and Tupac. He's simply that talented. Seriously, sit back and listen to the man's rhymes for a second. He rips the track apart on almost every single song. Reasonable Doubt is good, but it's not great. It's certainly nowhere near Illmatic in my mind, Jay-Z has never and likely will never release an album that good (personally I don't even think Reasonable Doubt is Jay-Z's best album; I prefer The Black Album). Shit, Jay-Z even sampled Illmatic on Reasonable Doubt!

Seriously, find me a single Jay-Z song that even touches this one:

[youtube]UKjj4hk0pV4[/youtube]​

That song right there is how I fell in love with Nas. And it's most likely the greatest rap song ever made. Nothing Jay-Z has ever done even touches that single track, nothing.

Illmatic For the Mother Fucking Win.​

 

[Ty Burna]

Wow...Jay-Z? Really??!?! Everyone is on his jock strap like he's some legend or some shit. He's overrated as all hell and he's as bad as Puffy in skewering Biggie's name in order to make his bigger. "Oh Biggie did a song with me, I'm the true heir to the King of NY title". I call severe bullshit on that. Jigga has put out one great album in Vol. 2 Hard Knock Life, at least as far as I'm concerned. As far as Reasonable Doubts goes, it was a decent little album I'll give it that much.

But the fact remains Jay-Z has never been as strong of a lyricist as Nas is. There's no comparison. Illmatic is one of the all time greatest hip hop albums to ever be released. It is also looked upon as one of the most influential hip hop albums to be released in the 1990's. Reasonable Doubts was nothing more than an independent album that had some good songs on it, but was known mostly for the Biggie guest appearance.

Illmatic was by far the superior album, there is no question about it. I don't know how you could say that Jay-Z, who's not close to Nas's capabilities, releasing an independent album which isn't even his best album, is better than an all time hip hop classic album in Illmatic. There's no comparison.

 

[SK]

Wow...Jay-Z? Really??!?! Everyone is on his jock strap like he's some legend or some shit. He's overrated as all hell and he's as bad as Puffy in skewering Biggie's name in order to make his bigger. "Oh Biggie did a song with me, I'm the true heir to the King of NY title". I call severe bullshit on that. Jigga has put out one great album in Vol. 2 Hard Knock Life, at least as far as I'm concerned. As far as Reasonable Doubts goes, it was a decent little album I'll give it that much.

Are you kidding? All Jay-Z gets is criticism for apparently 'selling out'. People constantly discredit his early work because of his more recent albums. You cannot compare Jay to Puffy in the using Biggie stakes, Puffy's on a whole different level of BIG exploitation. Maybe you don't like Jay-Z, fair enough but I think you seriously underrate Reasonable Doubt, but that's just my opinion.

But the fact remains Jay-Z has never been as strong of a lyricist as Nas is. There's no comparison. Illmatic is one of the all time greatest hip hop albums to ever be released. It is also looked upon as one of the most influential hip hop albums to be released in the 1990's. Reasonable Doubts was nothing more than an independent album that had some good songs on it, but was known mostly for the Biggie guest appearance.

I agree, Nas has been a stronger lyricist, but on Illmatic, I didn't think there was enough variety of lyricism, but that's just personal opinion.

Wow, you really don't give Reasonable Doubt enough credit, your clearly blinded by Jay-Z hate. The majority of hip hop fan and critics can admit that RD was an influential album, whilst I can appreciate that you may rate Illmatic higher, I think your being naive about the quality of RD.

Illmatic was by far the superior album, there is no question about it. I don't know how you could say that Jay-Z, who's not close to Nas's capabilities, releasing an independent album which isn't even his best album, is better than an all time hip hop classic album in Illmatic. There's no comparison.

Actually the question wasn't Jay-Z or Nas as rappers, it was Reasonable Doubt vs Illmatic, and I preferred RD. Over the years Nas is obviously the better rapper and better lyrically, but out of these two albums, I just thought RD was more well rounded. Personally, I felt that Jay gave more variety on RD and thats why I consider it better, he's got lyrics and songs to please everyone.

 

[Ty Burna]

Are you kidding? All Jay-Z gets is criticism for apparently 'selling out'. People constantly discredit his early work because of his more recent albums. You cannot compare Jay to Puffy in the using Biggie stakes, Puffy's on a whole different level of BIG exploitation. Maybe you don't like Jay-Z, fair enough but I think you seriously underrate Reasonable Doubt, but that's just my opinion.

I don't give a fuck if he sold out or not to be honest. Let's get this straight right off the bat, Jay was one of the first rappers I got into when I started listening to hip hop. I loved Vol. 1 and Vol. 2, they were great albums in my opinion. Maybe I do underrate Reasonable Doubt, but I don't see it as being better than Vol. 1 and Vol. 2. See when his Life and Times of S. Carter album came out is when I started to dislike Jay-Z. It wasn't his selling out, it's the fact that his music turned to shit save Big Pimpin, which of course was because of the great group UGK. I criticize Jay-Z based on the fact his music turned to shit, and with the exception of a few songs, has continued to be shit. I don't see him as a legend, and I"m sorry if you feel he his, but he's not in my book. Two good albums does not make you a legend unless you get shot like Biggie.

I agree, Nas has been a stronger lyricist, but on Illmatic, I didn't think there was enough variety of lyricism, but that's just personal opinion.

Yep because Jay right from the get go couldn't help but damn near steal Biggie's material. Read the lyrics from some of Reasonable Doubt's songs, money, blunts, expensive clothes, hoes, blah blah blah. Didn't Biggie already do that like 2 years prior to RD getting released? At least Nas kept it more true to the gritty side of New York, kept it to the streets and talked about the struggle. So you wanna talk variety? Jay-Z had less variety in his by far, considering most of the songs off RD was essentially taking a Biggie song and rewriting it.

Wow, you really don't give Reasonable Doubt enough credit, your clearly blinded by Jay-Z hate. The majority of hip hop fan and critics can admit that RD was an influential album, whilst I can appreciate that you may rate Illmatic higher, I think your being naive about the quality of RD.

RD influential how? To show how to rip off Biggie in the most blatant way possible? Like I said, RD wasn't a bad album, it really wasn't, but again it wasn't even Jay-Z's best album. Illmatic was Nas's best ablum, it can't be argued otherwise. Even if RD was influential in the East Coast Hip Hop scene, it isn't nearly as influential as Illmatic was. If we go to the hip hop thread and ask everyone to make an essential list of hip hop albums to have, what's going to show up more? RD or Illmatic? Take a guess, no in fact I will give you three.

Actually the question wasn't Jay-Z or Nas as rappers, it was Reasonable Doubt vs Illmatic, and I preferred RD. Over the years Nas is obviously the better rapper and better lyrically, but out of these two albums, I just thought RD was more well rounded. Personally, I felt that Jay gave more variety on RD and thats why I consider it better, he's got lyrics and songs to please everyone.

Again with the variety, look at the songs, LISTEN to the motherfucking songs. It's the same shit over and over and over again with Jay on RD. It's about money, shinin, clothes, etc, a few songs that may be introspective or Jay just spoutin bullshit out about his "enemies". You know, following exactly the formula Ready To Die went with. So while Jay may not have exploited Biggie's name as unabashed as Puffy did, he basically stole everything else from Biggie when it came to make albums and the material he used for his songs.

Illmatic meanwhile, was a grittier album, more true to the New York state of hip hop. It wasn't supposed to be smooth, it was supposed to smash you in your face and keep hitting hard until the very last song. You can prefer RD, but you can't say that it was the better album of the two. No way in motherfucking hell could it be said. Nas created a masterpiece with Illmatic, before The Source turned to shit and was influential, it gave Illmatic one of the few 5 Mic ratings to it, a huge and rare feat for that time period. Illmatic stands the test of time and is still relevant as far as social and politic issues, what does RD stay relevant as? An album that is starting to sound more and more like the shit rappers talking about nothing more than money clothes and hoes.

 

[SK]

I don't give a fuck if he sold out or not to be honest. Let's get this straight right off the bat, Jay was one of the first rappers I got into when I started listening to hip hop. I loved Vol. 1 and Vol. 2, they were great albums in my opinion. Maybe I do underrate Reasonable Doubt, but I don't see it as being better than Vol. 1 and Vol. 2. See when his Life and Times of S. Carter album came out is when I started to dislike Jay-Z. It wasn't his selling out, it's the fact that his music turned to shit save Big Pimpin, which of course was because of the great group UGK. I criticize Jay-Z based on the fact his music turned to shit, and with the exception of a few songs, has continued to be shit. I don't see him as a legend, and I"m sorry if you feel he his, but he's not in my book. Two good albums does not make you a legend unless you get shot like Biggie.

That's cool, at least your not a blind Jay-Z hater like most. I don't know whether I'd class Jay-Z as a legend, but I'd class RD as a classic album. His music may have turned to shit, but that doesn't make RD any less of a classic to me.

Yep because Jay right from the get go couldn't help but damn near steal Biggie's material. Read the lyrics from some of Reasonable Doubt's songs, money, blunts, expensive clothes, hoes, blah blah blah. Didn't Biggie already do that like 2 years prior to RD getting released? At least Nas kept it more true to the gritty side of New York, kept it to the streets and talked about the struggle. So you wanna talk variety? Jay-Z had less variety in his by far, considering most of the songs off RD was essentially taking a Biggie song and rewriting it.

Oh, because I don't know the lyrics to one of my favourite albums... So what, I prefer lyrical content about "money, blunts, expensive clothes, hoes" I don't care if Biggie rapped about the same thing, the majority of rappers talk about that, Nas talks about similar things. Anyway, that's not all Jigga talked about on RD, what about Dead Presidents, Politics As Usual, Regrets? All were deeper songs compared to Feelin It, Can't Knock The Hustle and Brooklyn's Finest.

RD influential how? To show how to rip off Biggie in the most blatant way possible? Like I said, RD wasn't a bad album, it really wasn't, but again it wasn't even Jay-Z's best album. Illmatic was Nas's best ablum, it can't be argued otherwise. Even if RD was influential in the East Coast Hip Hop scene, it isn't nearly as influential as Illmatic was. If we go to the hip hop thread and ask everyone to make an essential list of hip hop albums to have, what's going to show up more? RD or Illmatic? Take a guess, no in fact I will give you three.

How about it was influential because it sparked a huge rise in Mafioso rap and has been sampled as many times as Illmatic, if you think it ripped off Big, that's your opinion, but I don't think he did.

And if you did ask everyone to make an essential list of hip hop albums to have, I would presume and expect both Illmatic and Reasonable Doubt to appear in that list.

Again with the variety, look at the songs, LISTEN to the motherfucking songs. It's the same shit over and over and over again with Jay on RD. It's about money, shinin, clothes, etc, a few songs that may be introspective or Jay just spoutin bullshit out about his "enemies". You know, following exactly the formula Ready To Die went with. So while Jay may not have exploited Biggie's name as unabashed as Puffy did, he basically stole everything else from Biggie when it came to make albums and the material he used for his songs.

Look, there's no need to disrespect me, I have LISTENED to the songs, it's not at all the same shit over and over again. You can in no way compare Dead Presidents to D'Evils or Can I Live and if you think they are just the same songs I think it's you who needs to listen. He followed a similar formula as Ready To Die, but what's wrong with that RTD was an obvious classic and just because Jay raps in a similar style, it doesn't mean he's 'stealing' neither does it discredit RD.

Illmatic meanwhile, was a grittier album, more true to the New York state of hip hop. It wasn't supposed to be smooth, it was supposed to smash you in your face and keep hitting hard until the very last song. You can prefer RD, but you can't say that it was the better album of the two. No way in motherfucking hell could it be said. Nas created a masterpiece with Illmatic, before The Source turned to shit and was influential, it gave Illmatic one of the few 5 Mic ratings to it, a huge and rare feat for that time period. Illmatic stands the test of time and is still relevant as far as social and politic issues, what does RD stay relevant as? An album that is starting to sound more and more like the shit rappers talking about nothing more than money clothes and hoes.

Illmatic was a grittier album, I've already said that, but god forgive me if I want a smoother more well rounded (in my opinion) album.
I do think RD was a better album, but that's opinion and nothing you could say would make me change my mind, you could get Shawn Carter himself to say it and I would disagree. Also RD made it onto The Sources top 100 rap albums along with RD, Vol 1 and 2 didn't, so if were going off Source ratings then RD is obviously better than Vol 1 & 2 (I'm not saying that, I'm just saying, you can't go by everything The Source did).

We obviously disagree and that's fine, I don't want everybody to agree with me, that's the opposite of what I wanted. But don't treat me like an idiot for my opinion, I respect your opinion even though I don't agree and telling me shit like listen to the lyrics is a bit disrespectful when I'm just giving my personal opinion. I'm happy to agree to disagree, I preferred Reasonable Doubt, you preferred Illmatic, that's cool.

 

[X]

How about it was influential because it sparked a huge rise in Mafioso rap and has been sampled as many times as Illmatic, if you think it ripped off Big, that's your opinion, but I don't think he did.

Woah woah woah now, don't get me wrong I've got some respect for Jay-Z (I don't think he's one of the best ever or even close, but he's certainly above average, his verse on Big L's "Da Graveyard" is one of the sickest I've ever heard), but let's not say something that just isn't true, like Jay-Z sparking Mafioso rap, because that's simply false.

Aren't we forgetting someone here?

Only Built 4 Cuban Linx by Raekwon started mafioso rap, and he did it better than Jay-Z could ever have dreamed to.

 

[SK]

Woah woah woah now, don't get me wrong I've got some respect for Jay-Z (I don't think he's one of the best ever or even close, but he's certainly above average, his verse on Big L's "Da Graveyard" is one of the sickest I've ever heard), but let's not say something that just isn't true, like Jay-Z sparking Mafioso rap, because that's simply false.

Aren't we forgetting someone here?

Only Built 4 Cuban Linx by Raekwon started mafioso rap, and he did it better than Jay-Z could ever have dreamed to.

WOAH WOAH WOAH X! I said that it influenced Mafioso rap, but I would never say that it started it, OB4CL easily holds that title, well along with AZ's Doe or Die. Let me repeat that because I don't want to get mistaken for saying something like that!

Reasonable Doubt did NOT start Mafioso rap, however he did help popularise it and influence others to make Mafioso rap.

I also obviously agree that OB4CL & Raekwon are better than Reasonable Doubt and Jay-Z. But if your looking at Mafioso you have to include Only Built 4 Cuban Links, Doe or Die and Reasonable Doubt and I think you can agree that OB4CL & Do or Die pioneered Mafioso but Reasonable Doubt definitely popularised it.

 

[Ty Burna]

That's cool, at least your not a blind Jay-Z hater like most. I don't know whether I'd class Jay-Z as a legend, but I'd class RD as a classic album. His music may have turned to shit, but that doesn't make RD any less of a classic to me.



Oh, because I don't know the lyrics to one of my favourite albums... So what, I prefer lyrical content about "money, blunts, expensive clothes, hoes" I don't care if Biggie rapped about the same thing, the majority of rappers talk about that, Nas talks about similar things. Anyway, that's not all Jigga talked about on RD, what about Dead Presidents, Politics As Usual, Regrets? All were deeper songs compared to Feelin It, Can't Knock The Hustle and Brooklyn's Finest.



How about it was influential because it sparked a huge rise in Mafioso rap and has been sampled as many times as Illmatic, if you think it ripped off Big, that's your opinion, but I don't think he did.

And if you did ask everyone to make an essential list of hip hop albums to have, I would presume and expect both Illmatic and Reasonable Doubt to appear in that list.



Look, there's no need to disrespect me, I have LISTENED to the songs, it's not at all the same shit over and over again. You can in no way compare Dead Presidents to D'Evils or Can I Live and if you think they are just the same songs I think it's you who needs to listen. He followed a similar formula as Ready To Die, but what's wrong with that RTD was an obvious classic and just because Jay raps in a similar style, it doesn't mean he's 'stealing' neither does it discredit RD.



Illmatic was a grittier album, I've already said that, but god forgive me if I want a smoother more well rounded (in my opinion) album.
I do think RD was a better album, but that's opinion and nothing you could say would make me change my mind, you could get Shawn Carter himself to say it and I would disagree. Also RD made it onto The Sources top 100 rap albums along with RD, Vol 1 and 2 didn't, so if were going off Source ratings then RD is obviously better than Vol 1 & 2 (I'm not saying that, I'm just saying, you can't go by everything The Source did).

We obviously disagree and that's fine, I don't want everybody to agree with me, that's the opposite of what I wanted. But don't treat me like an idiot for my opinion, I respect your opinion even though I don't agree and telling me shit like listen to the lyrics is a bit disrespectful when I'm just giving my personal opinion. I'm happy to agree to disagree, I preferred Reasonable Doubt, you preferred Illmatic, that's cool.

Nah man if I came across like I was disrespecting ya, it wasn't meant like that and I apologize. The point I was making was if you're gonna talk about the lyrical variety, then ya gotta listen to the lyrics themselves and/or go read the lyrics. That was the point. I don't know the lyrics word for word for RD but I went ahead and read them, and it was just like I was reading the lyrics for a Biggie song, that was the point I was trying to make. Ya gotta give me a little slack when it comes to discussing hip hop and music, I get into it deeply and if I come across disrespectful, don't take it personally unless of course I go after your personal tastes. Ya gonna have to man up a bit if saying "Listen to the motherfucking lyrics" seems to be disrespectful to you, because in all honesty that isn't even being disrespectful, that's just saying take a second listen or read what the lyrics are if you're going to use them in making your point.

While some songs may not be similar to each other, or to Biggie, the fact remains a good majority of it to me sounds and reads like a Biggie album, while it's all fine and dandy that Jay is influenced by Biggie, why go out and completely rip off what Biggie did? Use his influence but do your own thing, that's what Jay-Z's doing now and why he's not doing anything worth a shit in music now. It was obvious from the get go that Jay-Z tried to model his material, not necessarily style but in some ways yes, to what Biggie did. I don't blame Jigga for having Biggie as an influence, but it's clear to me that he took that influence a little too far and since he's gotten away from the "Mafioso" rap as you put it, he's gone to shit and a half. Please name some other famous "Mafioso rappers" like Jay-Z, I don't remember many to be honest, probably because Jay was really the only to ever do Mafioso rap decently, and that's being generous.

Just like the discussion X and I had about Ice Cube vs. Bone, if you wanna do a comparison, then by all means accept the fact that someone is gonna attack your opinion if theirs differs from yours. Nas is loved more by old hip hop heads like X and myself, especially when it comes to an album like Illmatic and a couple of huge Nas fans. If you didn't want RD to get ripped apart and dissed, shouldn't have compared to another album. Better way to go about getting discussion about RD is just make a post in the Hip Hop thread about it or it's own thread to discuss it, not try to compare it as better than another album, that's just asking for someone to attack your opinion man.

By and by, don't take this shit personally, I wasn't attacking you I was attacking your statement that RD was better than Illmatic, I do have the right to do so and took full advantage of it.

 

[SK]

Nah man if I came across like I was disrespecting ya, it wasn't meant like that and I apologize. The point I was making was if you're gonna talk about the lyrical variety, then ya gotta listen to the lyrics themselves and/or go read the lyrics. That was the point. I don't know the lyrics word for word for RD but I went ahead and read them, and it was just like I was reading the lyrics for a Biggie song, that was the point I was trying to make. Ya gotta give me a little slack when it comes to discussing hip hop and music, I get into it deeply and if I come across disrespectful, don't take it personally unless of course I go after your personal tastes.

That's ok man, I can appreciate that you get into it deeply as I do myself sometimes, I can see you meant no disrespect so were cool on that front.

While some songs may not be similar to each other, or to Biggie, the fact remains a good majority of it to me sounds and reads like a Biggie album, while it's all fine and dandy that Jay is influenced by Biggie, why go out and completely rip off what Biggie did? Use his influence but do your own thing, that's what Jay-Z's doing now and why he's not doing anything worth a shit in music now. It was obvious from the get go that Jay-Z tried to model his material, not necessarily style but in some ways yes, to what Biggie did. I don't blame Jigga for having Biggie as an influence, but it's clear to me that he took that influence a little too far and since he's gotten away from the "Mafioso" rap as you put it, he's gone to shit and a half.

He was definitely influenced by Big and styled himself on Big, but what is wrong with that? Biggie was successful and had a great style, he's a good rapper to model yourself on, Jay just applied his own lyrics to Big's style. As you said, as soon as Jay stopped doing so he went bad, so why can't I enjoy when Jay was better, even if he did style himself on Big.

Rappers have copied each others style for ever, it's a natural thing and I don't think any album or rapper should be discredited because they have a similar style to another rapper.

Please name some other famous "Mafioso rappers" like Jay-Z, I don't remember many to be honest, probably because Jay was really the only to ever do Mafioso rap decently, and that's being generous.

Really? You wouldn't consider AZ, Raekwon, Kool G Rap, Big Pun, Scarface N.O.R.E etc. to be Mafioso? Nas himself used Mafioso by calling himself Nas Escobar and It Was Written, is considered as a Mafioso inspired album.
I hope this was a mistake/ joke on your part because you surely can't be ignoring Mafioso rap and all of the great albums and rappers that come under that category.

As X Just showed with his last post, there obviously was a Mafioso rap genre, which Raekwon and AZ pioneered and Jay-Z helped popularize.

Just like the discussion X and I had about Ice Cube vs. Bone, if you wanna do a comparison, then by all means accept the fact that someone is gonna attack your opinion if theirs differs from yours. Nas is loved more by old hip hop heads like X and myself, especially when it comes to an album like Illmatic and a couple of huge Nas fans. If you didn't want RD to get ripped apart and dissed, shouldn't have compared to another album. Better way to go about getting discussion about RD is just make a post in the Hip Hop thread about it or it's own thread to discuss it, not try to compare it as better than another album, that's just asking for someone to attack your opinion man.

Of course I expected people to attack my opinion, that's what I wanted, that's half the reason why I chose RD as the better album. I made this thread and put RD against Illmatic because I felt like a good debate and I knew people would disagree.

Also, I may be 18 but I consider myself an old school hip hop fan as I can't stand the majority of shit that's around nowadays, I don't think that just because someone is a fan of older hip hop they are inclined to like one album over another, it's all down to personal preference.

 

[Ty Burna]

Really? You wouldn't consider AZ, Raekwon, Kool G Rap, Big Pun, Scarface N.O.R.E etc. to be Mafioso? Nas himself used Mafioso by calling himself Nas Escobar and It Was Written, is considered as a Mafioso inspired album.
I hope this was a mistake/ joke on your part because you surely can't be ignoring Mafioso rap and all of the great albums and rappers that come under that category.

As X Just showed with his last post, there obviously was a Mafioso rap genre, which Raekwon and AZ pioneered and Jay-Z helped popularize.

I'll give ya that one, I just never saw it as Mafioso rap before, Scarface was always a Southern Hip hop Legend, and that's how I saw him, AZ was the rapper that was supposed to be on Nas's level, but never reached it, Raekwon is the shit, and was part of the Wu Tang Clan way before Mafioso rap so he's a Wu Tang Member first in my book. I could go on but you get the point that I usually saw the rappers you named in a different light other than Mafioso rappers.

Of course I expected people to attack my opinion, that's what I wanted, that's half the reason why I chose RD as the better album. I made this thread and put RD against Illmatic because I felt like a good debate and I knew people would disagree.

Also, I may be 18 but I consider myself an old school hip hop fan as I can't stand the majority of shit that's around nowadays, I don't think that just because someone is a fan of older hip hop they are inclined to like one album over another, it's all down to personal preference.

I'm glad to hear that, but I just want to say if you want to debate what album is better, I just get a slight annoyed when people say "That's my opinion you aren't changing". That's great and all, but that wasn't the point of the argument was it? It was a discussion and debate on what is the better album. Unless you are Jesus himself debating, you will never change the opinion of someone who's debating an opposite opinion of you, and even Jesus may have difficulty changing minds.

Also it's awesome to see some more old school hip hop fans, it just seems like there is becoming less and less of us around nowadays. It's a shame really because a lot of younger kids getting into hip hop don't know about the history and the artists that broke ground for the genre. A prime example is at a house party I was talking to this guy (now I'm not being racist here, but we all know hip hop was an African American music genre first, and me being white typically your opinion counts less for some reason), but he was African American and I asked him what his favorite rappers were. He named off names such as Lil Wayne, Young Joc, etc. all the rappers that are big now. So I proceeded to ask him what about the legends like Eazy E, NWA, 2pac, Biggie, etc. And he looked at me like I was talking French. He responded with: "Well they're all good rappers, but they're not as good as Wayne or Joc are". That was telling for me, and honestly, I felt pretty old at that point in time where some younger kid is telling me Wayne and Joc are better than Pac or NWA. Ending my story here SK, but jump in the hip hop thread some more man, I know I've been slacking off in there but I hope the usuals there don't expect me to be making all the discussion starting posts there.

 

[jmt225]

Great thread, but unfortunately I completely disagree with you here SK. Mainly because Jay-Z has to be the most overrated rapper in the history of hip-hop. He's really just not very good. That said, Reasonable Doubt is a damn good album. There are quite a few good songs on there.

Unfortunately, it just doesn't compare to Illmatic. At all. Perhaps I'm biased in my love for Nas, but to me Illmatic isn't just a great hip-hop album, it's a serious contender to be the greatest hip-hop album ever made. Nas proved himself to be not only one of the best new rappers in the game, but potentially the best in the game. That's right, I rank Nas right alongside Biggie and Tupac. He's simply that talented. Seriously, sit back and listen to the man's rhymes for a second. He rips the track apart on almost every single song. Reasonable Doubt is good, but it's not great. It's certainly nowhere near Illmatic in my mind, Jay-Z has never and likely will never release an album that good (personally I don't even think Reasonable Doubt is Jay-Z's best album; I prefer The Black Album). Shit, Jay-Z even sampled Illmatic on Reasonable Doubt!

Seriously, find me a single Jay-Z song that even touches this one:

[youtube]UKjj4hk0pV4[/youtube]​

That song right there is how I fell in love with Nas. And it's most likely the greatest rap song ever made. Nothing Jay-Z has ever done even touches that single track, nothing.

Illmatic For the Mother Fucking Win.​

This, this, and more of THIS.

Seriously Sk, if you're going to match Nas' Illmatic against something, then at least put it up against something worthy. Now, I admit, Reasonable Doubt and the first Blueprint are the two Jay-Z albums I can tolerate, but neither one of them come anywhere close to matching the epicness that is Illmatic. In fact, the only hip-hop albums that do are Eminem's Marshal Mathers LP, Run DMC's Self Titled Album, N.W.A.'s Straight Outta Compton, 2Pac's All Eyez On Me, Ice Cube's AmeriKKKa's Most Wanted, Bone Thugs-n-Harmony's E 1999 Eternal, and Nas' very own Stillmatic. You could possibly throw Dr. Dre's The Chronic and Snoop Dogg's Doggy Style on that list as well. But that is literally it. Nothing Jay-Z has ever done comes close to touching those albums in quality or legacy. That is a fact.

 

[FromTheSouth]

I take Nas here as well. I have taken Nas over Jay-Z since day one. I do like them both, but I feel that every step Nas' lyrics have been superior.

Illmatic did get The Source's recommendation. I know that The Source is not today what it used to be, but no one ever got five mics at a time when that meant everything. Now, it seems you can buy five mics.

Jay hadn't come into his own quite yet. The album showed promise, and is an excellent album, but it wasn't the standard Jay set for himself starting with Hard Knock Life.

NY State of Mind is the song that will be remembered off of Illmatic, but I believe The World is Yours was the best song. I think it still stands as one of Nas' smoothest flows. Jay's album was great, but honestly, I think they should've added mics for Nas.