Here's a Thought

[Gotahn]

Okay Guys,
I was watching Raw back in 2000 right after the Royal Rumble and I noticed something. Even though it was the Attitude Era and all of that, the wrestling just seemed better. I finally figured out why. (Thus is my opinion by the way so I may be wrong) I was watching the Chris Jericho vs Hardcore Holly and the animosity between them was just genuine. Y2J came out and ran to the ring and they just went at it. Even during the match they would slap each other and trade punches out of the anger that brewed earlier in the night. It felt like real hate, it felt like a fight. This is what I think is missing from Wrestling. I watch Raw today and I don’t see that fire in any wrestler. I am trying not to turn this into a bash a wrestler forum so I will say this. When have we seen a wrestler run out to the ring at the start of the match and the two guys trade punches because the hatred was real? Because they couldn't wait to get their hands on each other? Last time I remember it happening was when Dean fought Seth. That’s why I thought that match was so great because even when put on stretchers the hate built up so badly that they still fought.

What do you guys think? Again this is just my opinion so please tell me yours.

 

[AegonTargaryen]

1)You're spot on. This is something even I had realized barely a few days ago and yet I can't recall what segment/match it was which caused that realization.

2)Nonetheless, what you're saying doesn't apply just to sheer hatred between two wrestlers who can't wait to beat/punch each other. What you're essentially referring to is- feeling, real, palpable, raw feeling.

3)I think if you watch Kevin Owens, you'll see that everything he does, even the little things, feel real. Especially the "feeling", whether it's rage, jealousy, or arrogance. Watch the Raw after TLC where he interferes between a Ambrose-Ziggler match and attacks them both. Watch his expression after he powerbombs Ambrose. I think that's what wrestling today is missing and has been missing for far too long. After all, are The Miz, Alberto Del Rio and the like even half as capable/brilliant/endowed as Chris Jericho and Shawn Michaels?

4)At least we are lucky because I think Seth Rollins, Kevin Owens, and Dean Ambrose are the only ones that come to my mind who are capable of giving dramatic performances as well as exhibit that raw palpable emotion/feeling I'm talking about. But apart from that, it's something you won't really see in today's day and age of twitter and social media BS and idiots like Zack Ryder and The Miz, and (I could go on)..

5)Of course no one comes close to transmitting raw emotion/feeling as CM Punk did. He was so frustrated in actuality that every time he showed up, one could feel it. Anger, malice, envy, resentment, bitterness, you name it. What can I say, he was the best at the performance aspect of it(even though a rather mediocre/okayish wrestler). And I just loved it. But now, I'm looking forward to saying "I love it" during Rollins and Owens segments, Dean Ambrose's interviews, and Cesaro's athleticism. Raw athleticism.

 

[ShinChan]

Okay Guys,
I was watching Raw back in 2000 right after the Royal Rumble and I noticed something. Even though it was the Attitude Era and all of that, the wrestling just seemed better. I finally figured out why. (Thus is my opinion by the way so I may be wrong) I was watching the Chris Jericho vs Hardcore Holly and the animosity between them was just genuine. Y2J came out and ran to the ring and they just went at it. Even during the match they would slap each other and trade punches out of the anger that brewed earlier in the night. It felt like real hate, it felt like a fight. This is what I think is missing from Wrestling. I watch Raw today and I don¡¯t see that fire in any wrestler. I am trying not to turn this into a bash a wrestler forum so I will say this. When have we seen a wrestler run out to the ring at the start of the match and the two guys trade punches because the hatred was real? Because they couldn't wait to get their hands on each other? Last time I remember it happening was when Dean fought Seth. That¡¯s why I thought that match was so great because even when put on stretchers the hate built up so badly that they still fought.

What do you guys think? Again this is just my opinion so please tell me yours.

I totally agree with you buddy!
I too want such fights.. But today you can expect this only from Dean Ambrose (because he is a lunatic) , Seth Rollins, Kevin Owens and Paige only....

1)You're spot on. This is something even I had realized barely a few days ago and yet I can't recall what segment/match it was which caused that realization.

2)Nonetheless, what you're saying doesn't apply just to sheer hatred between two wrestlers who can't wait to beat/punch each other. What you're essentially referring to is- feeling, real, palpable, raw feeling.

3)I think if you watch Kevin Owens, you'll see that everything he does, even the little things, feel real. Especially the "feeling", whether it's rage, jealousy, or arrogance. Watch the Raw after TLC where he interferes between a Ambrose-Ziggler match and attacks them both. Watch his expression after he powerbombs Ambrose. I think that's what wrestling today is missing and has been missing for far too long. After all, are The Miz, Alberto Del Rio and the like even half as capable/brilliant/endowed as Chris Jericho and Shawn Michaels?

4)At least we are lucky because I think Seth Rollins, Kevin Owens, and Dean Ambrose are the only ones that come to my mind who are capable of giving dramatic performances as well as exhibit that raw palpable emotion/feeling I'm talking about. But apart from that, it's something you won't really see in today's day and age of twitter and social media BS and idiots like Zack Ryder and The Miz, and (I could go on)..

5)Of course no one comes close to transmitting raw emotion/feeling as CM Punk did. He was so frustrated in actuality that every time he showed up, one could feel it. Anger, malice, envy, resentment, bitterness, you name it. What can I say, he was the best at the performance aspect of it(even though a rather mediocre/okayish wrestler). And I just loved it. But now, I'm looking forward to saying "I love it" during Rollins and Owens segments, Dean Ambrose's interviews, and Cesaro's athleticism. Raw athleticism.

You too are spot on, atleast for me! Kevin Owens attack on Ziggler & Ambrose was awesome! Gave the pure feeling of an attack of vengeance! Interestingly what i watch in RAW or what i watch Raw for are
1. Seth Rollins
2. Dean Ambrose
3. Cesaro
4. Kevin Owens
5. Paige
I think Daniel Bryan also is awesome at performing and showcasing right feelings!
And yes! CM Punk was a good skilled wrestler but more an awesome performer which led to his success! and i liked that guy

 

[MTL722]

Aggression is a big part of what makes wrestling "real". But you also need the performers to feel like there is something to show aggression over. That is where creative has failed. Owens is a "prize-fighter" so his aggression is based on what prize he wants to capture. Almost everybody else is generically booked 50-50 style which leads to complacency

Austin mentions this on a few podcasts when talking about the differences between now and then. Austin used to really lay-in his punches. He'd put his whole body into it. That was a guy that brawled outside the ring on an almost weekly basis. But again, back then there were a ton of high level talents that knew the next match could be their break-through match.

Whats to fight for now? A loss to Cena? A feud with Big Show or Kane? How about the illustrious US title? Unless you're in the main event, your feud is going to be a basic win trade with little to no reason why the feud began in the first place

Nobodies ever been aggressive in the pursuit of nothing

 

[Mustang Sally]

Nonetheless, what you're saying doesn't apply just to sheer hatred between two wrestlers who can't wait to beat/punch each other. What you're essentially referring to is- feeling, real, palpable, raw feeling.

Consider the time period cited by the OP (around 2000). In today's WWE, we read how most of the action in the ring is heavily choreographed. Is it possible they were allowed to work matches more as they pleased back at the turn of the century? Hadn't Triple H told us years ago that management (before he himself was a member of it) listened to wrestlers suggestions about their characters back then? Perhaps that extended to allowing them to tell their own story in the ring, with just a broad outline given them before the contest, telling the performers the desired result?

If this is true, wouldn't it have been easier to bring true emotion to a match rather than the wrestler having to concern himself with memorizing a script like an actor on stage?

What do you think?

 

[AegonTargaryen]

Consider the time period cited by the OP (around 2000). In today's WWE, we read how most of the action in the ring is heavily choreographed. Is it possible they were allowed to work matches more as they pleased back at the turn of the century? Hadn't Triple H told us years ago that management (before he himself was a member of it) listened to wrestlers suggestions about their characters back then? Perhaps that extended to allowing them to tell their own story in the ring, with just a broad outline given them before the contest, telling the performers the desired result?

If this is true, wouldn't it have been easier to bring true emotion to a match rather than the wrestler having to concern himself with memorizing a script like an actor on stage?

What do you think?

Exactly. I also believe that having toured all over the world before they ever got into the WWE/WCW, aka the territory system, made them such able performers- Chris Jericho for example.

In certain cases, they were just talented when it comes to non-wrestling. Both Edge and Christian for example, joined the WWF(E) after just a few years of training/wrestling in Canada.

So yeah, it's multiple factors- the desire to excel, the willingness to learn the non-wrestling aspects of the business(like Kurt Angle), and more importantly, your own personal conviction about who you are as a performer- which I believe we've seen in abundance in the likes of Shawn Michaels and CM Punk. It is that conviction, apart from the usual term/concept of "charisma", which attracts us to them. Punk had his Straightedge-better-than-you persona, which he probably was in real-life. Shawn Michaels was just so full of magnetism naturally, and when he did exude a feeling like rage, we were thrilled.