Heisman Trophy

[Big Sexy]

The five finalists for the Heisman Trophy have been named. Tyrann Mathieu, Trent Richardson, Robert Griffin III, Montee Ball, and Andrew Luck. Mathieu is the biggest surprise here. He had a great season at corner and really upped his stock with a couple return td's the last two weeks but I don't know if he was dominant enough on the whole to get an invite. It seems like voters just thought someone from the best team should be invited and Mathieu was the best option.

The two favorites are likely Trent Richardson and Andrew Luck but I don't agree with that. They both had great seasons and deserve to get invited but if it wasn't for the pre season hype they would not be looked at as the favorites to win the award.

RGIII and Montee Ball had the best seasons of anyone. Griffin led all qb's in qb rating, had just under 4,000 yards passing and had 36 tds to just 6 ints. He was also a threat on the ground with 9 rushing tds. Out of the 5 he also had the least amount of help around him.

Montee Ball is the guy who I think deserves the award the most. Maybe it is my Big 10 bias but he was absolutely tremendous and didn't have one bad game all year. He led all of college football in rushing yards and rushing tds by a large margin. He ended up with 1,759 rushing yards, 32 rushing tds, and a 6.4 ypc average for the 11-2 Big Ten Champs. He also added 6 receiving tds leaving him one short of Barry Sanders total td record for non qb's in the regular season. He was the best player on a two loss power conference champion and put up the best numbers of all the candidates.

My list goes as follows:
1. Montee Ball
2. Robert Griffin III
3. Andrew Luck
4. Trent Richardson
5. Tyrann Mathieu

I expect the actual list to go much different and it will likely be Richardson or Luck winning but hopefully I'm wrong.

So who do you have winning the Heisman and who do you think should win the Heisman?

 

[Megatron]

I'm flipping the #1 and #2 with you. RGIII, by all means, has been the best and most important player to his team this season. Remember, this is Baylor. Not Texas, not Oklahoma, not even Texas A&M, it's Baylor. He's posted the best efficiency mark for a player and if he wasn't on the team I don't think many would think they'd finish higher then 6-6. They have no D, and its been a lot of him just playing pitch and catch with Kendall Wright.

As for why not Ball? 2 reasons - It's Wisconsin. Not to try to discredit ball, but UW's line can put even some NFL teams to shame. They have hoss's back there and I think anybody that gets carries behind there would score a bunch of TDs. As much as Ball? No. I'm not trying to discredit the guy, but you can pretty much name any UW RB in the past few years and they've had good-great seasons due to their line. Has Ball had better seasons then most? Of course, but UW's line and a QB you actually have to account for (instead of a Scott Tolzien).

Also, people trying to put the TD record on him should look in context. Barry put up 44 TDs in only 12 games - but 5 didn't count since NCAA didn't count Bowl game stats then (but do now for some reason). Balls scored 1 less TD in 2 more games (so far) then Sanders did and still has 1 game left - that counts unlike Barry - , so that stat is a tad skewed. Just to point it out.

Not to discredit Ball, but I think a lot of guys can go behind that line and put up a bunch of yards and TDs. I don't think too many guys can do what Griffins done at Baylor because of how dependent the offense is reliant on his running and passing ability.

And one last note, Griffin's had 3 'Heisman' moments - the opener against TCU where he went off and officially threw his name into the hat, the OU game where they beat the Sooners for the first time ever due to his great play, and last week vs. Texas when he lit them up and led them to their 2nd straight victory over them. Ball hasn't really had that. Sure, he had 3 TDs in the championship game, but he wasn't even the games MVP. And UW blew everyone out so they never really had to hope on him to go lead them for a GW TD late.

So yeah, Griffin 1, Ball 2. Griffins performance last week I think really helped his chances since Luck and Richardson were both off.

 

[Big Sexy]

Obviously Ball's td number in comparison to Barry's is skewed but no one will ever approach what Barry did in 12 games. The fact that Ball has the second highest number of all time is still remarkable.

Ball and Griffin are neck and neck and Ball definitely had more help around him but I still go with Ball because of the competition he faced. The Big 12 certainly is not known for its defense. In terms of most passing yards for the season, Big 12 qb's have the number 3-6 spots overall with Weeden, Landry Jones, and Seth Doege all throwing for over 4,000 yards and Griffin at number 6 at 3,998. Griffin definitely had the best overall numbers of any qb with his combination of yards, completion %, and td to int ratio but he never really played a great defense.

The only good defense he played was Texas who is 14th in total defense. The next best defense he played was TCU who is 32nd in total defense and the third best was Missouri who is 61st. 4 of the defenses that he played are in the bottom 14 in the country including Kansas who is dead last.

Montee Ball has played some great defenses. He has played against 3 of the top 10 teams in total defense (one of those teams is 5th overall MSU who he played twice). The guy only had one game where he averaged under 5.0 ypc and that was against Northern Illinois where he averaged 4.6 ypc.

At the end of the day, however, Griffin has the better chance to win the Heisman and I am perfectly fine with that happening. He definitely deserves it and I'm hoping he wins. ESPN's latest projections actually have him at number one and I'm hoping the actual voters see it the same way.

 

[Davi323]

As for why not Ball? 2 reasons - It's Wisconsin. Not to try to discredit ball, but UW's line can put even some NFL teams to shame. They have hoss's back there and I think anybody that gets carries behind there would score a bunch of TDs. As much as Ball? No. I'm not trying to discredit the guy, but you can pretty much name any UW RB in the past few years and they've had good-great seasons due to their line. Has Ball had better seasons then most? Of course, but UW's line and a QB you actually have to account for (instead of a Scott Tolzien).

Also, people trying to put the TD record on him should look in context. Barry put up 44 TDs in only 12 games - but 5 didn't count since NCAA didn't count Bowl game stats then (but do now for some reason). Balls scored 1 less TD in 2 more games (so far) then Sanders did and still has 1 game left - that counts unlike Barry - , so that stat is a tad skewed. Just to point it out.

Not to discredit Ball, but I think a lot of guys can go behind that line and put up a bunch of yards and TDs. I don't think too many guys can do what Griffins done at Baylor because of how dependent the offense is reliant on his running and passing ability.

I don't buy the "It's Wisconsin" crap at all. Didn't stop Ron Dayne from winning the Heisman. In fact, even by Wisconsin standards, Montee Ball is having a monster year. In only 1 additional game, Ball has almost twice the TDs Dayne had when he won the Heisman. His yards per carry is higher, by almost half a yard, and unlike Dayne, he can catch. The only reason Montee Ball doesn't have well over 2,000 yards in rushing alone is because his attempts are well below Dayne's. Montee Ball is a monster running back. In fact, Montee Ball is statistically the greatest RB the Badgers have ever had.

Even the TD thing...yeah, they play more games now...but the fact that he is even being mentioned in the same sentence as one of the single greatest college football players of all time tells you how well he is doing. Take Barry Sanders' numbers and the inevitable comparison to him out of it...38 TDs in 13 games and counting is monumental all by itself. When was the last time a college running back averaged almost 3 TDs a game for the entire season? He has over 2,000 yards from scrimmage, and both his TD count and yards from scrimmage will go even higher. Montee Ball has more TDs as a RB than Andrew Luck has as a QB. That should NEVER happen. A Running back should never have more TDs than a Heisman candidate QB who is going to be the #1 pick in the NFL draft in a few months. Yet, he does. He is also statistically much better than Trent Richardson in just about every category. RGIII won't win, simply because it's Baylor.

Montee Ball's season is just as, if not more Heisman worthy as anyone else that was invited. I don't think he will win, I think the voters will take the easy way out and just give it to Luck...but Montee Ball arguably has the best logical case to win. Your reasons for discounting him are ridiculous. The only reason Ball won't win the Heisman is because the voters have been told since last year that Luck was going to win it this year, and have been conditioned to vote for him regardless.

 

[Megatron]

Ball and Griffin are neck and neck and Ball definitely had more help around him but I still go with Ball because of the competition he faced. The Big 12 certainly is not known for its defense. In terms of most passing yards for the season, Big 12 qb's have the number 3-6 spots overall with Weeden, Landry Jones, and Seth Doege all throwing for over 4,000 yards and Griffin at number 6 at 3,998. Griffin definitely had the best overall numbers of any qb with his combination of yards, completion %, and td to int ratio but he never really played a great defense.

The only good defense he played was Texas who is 14th in total defense. The next best defense he played was TCU who is 32nd in total defense and the third best was Missouri who is 61st. 4 of the defenses that he played are in the bottom 14 in the country including Kansas who is dead last.

Montee Ball has played some great defenses. He has played against 3 of the top 10 teams in total defense (one of those teams is 5th overall MSU who he played twice). The guy only had one game where he averaged under 5.0 ypc and that was against Northern Illinois where he averaged 4.6 ypc.

At the end of the day, however, Griffin has the better chance to win the Heisman and I am perfectly fine with that happening. He definitely deserves it and I'm hoping he wins. ESPN's latest projections actually have him at number one and I'm hoping the actual voters see it the same way.

Still look what Ball had compared to Griffin. He had a QB that is one of the most dynamic in the conference, has a top defense behind him, and one of the best lines in the country. He's not relied to do it all, and at times hasn't even looked like the most important to his team. Griffin, though, has a crappy D and one really good receiver on his team. While many might not care about the talent level around them (since the last few have come on 0 or 1 loss teams) Griffin has kept up the consistency to keep Baylor relevant and a player all year.

I don't buy the "It's Wisconsin" crap at all. Didn't stop Ron Dayne from winning the Heisman. In fact, even by Wisconsin standards, Montee Ball is having a monster year. In only 1 additional game, Ball has almost twice the TDs Dayne had when he won the Heisman. His yards per carry is higher, by almost half a yard, and unlike Dayne, he can catch. The only reason Montee Ball doesn't have well over 2,000 yards in rushing alone is because his attempts are well below Dayne's. Montee Ball is a monster running back. In fact, Montee Ball is statistically the greatest RB the Badgers have ever had.

Even the TD thing...yeah, they play more games now...but the fact that he is even being mentioned in the same sentence as one of the single greatest college football players of all time tells you how well he is doing. Take Barry Sanders' numbers and the inevitable comparison to him out of it...38 TDs in 13 games and counting is monumental all by itself. When was the last time a college running back averaged almost 3 TDs a game for the entire season? He has over 2,000 yards from scrimmage, and both his TD count and yards from scrimmage will go even higher. Montee Ball has more TDs as a RB than Andrew Luck has as a QB. That should NEVER happen. A Running back should never have more TDs than a Heisman candidate QB who is going to be the #1 pick in the NFL draft in a few months. Yet, he does. He is also statistically much better than Trent Richardson in just about every category. RGIII won't win, simply because it's Baylor.

Montee Ball's season is just as, if not more Heisman worthy as anyone else that was invited. I don't think he will win, I think the voters will take the easy way out and just give it to Luck...but Montee Ball arguably has the best logical case to win. Your reasons for discounting him are ridiculous. The only reason Ball won't win the Heisman is because the voters have been told since last year that Luck was going to win it this year, and have been conditioned to vote for him regardless.

You say my reasons are ridiculous, then say Griffin won't win simply because it's Baylor. Way to contradict yourself. It's not like Baylor was 6-6. They won 9 games and beat OU and TCU, along with some other quality teams. Plus he put the highest efficiency mark ever for a QB. Higher then Tebow, Leinart, Detmer, Flutie, Staubach, etc. It's not like he hasn't had a great year on a team that isn't the same caliber as UW.

 

[Davi323]

You say my reasons are ridiculous, then say Griffin won't win simply because it's Baylor. Way to contradict yourself. It's not like Baylor was 6-6. They won 9 games and beat OU and TCU, along with some other quality teams. Plus he put the highest efficiency mark ever for a QB. Higher then Tebow, Leinart, Detmer, Flutie, Staubach, etc. It's not like he hasn't had a great year on a team that isn't the same caliber as UW.

Griffin won't win because it's Baylor. Nobody outside of the Big XII knows anything about him. Quick...name me the last Heisman winner to come from a relatively small school that does not enjoy national attention every year...Baylor is having a great year, but they aren't a "name" school. The last non "name" school to have a Heisman winner was probably Houston with Andre Ware in 1989. 22 years ago. When Ty Detmer won at BYU in 1990, BYU was still a "name" school from the 80s. They have fallen out of the national spotlight since, but at the time, BYU still garnered a lot of national attention.

They simply don't give the Heisman to players from small schools very often. I wasn't saying Baylor sucked, I was saying that they don't get enough national attention for RGIII to seriously be considered. You can't win if nobody sees you play, regardless of how good your stats might be.

Let me give you an example that might hit closer to home: Kevin Smith (Lions player, not the film director, obviously). His senior year, he rushed for over 2,500 yards and 29 TDs. He wasn't even mentioned in Heisman discussions. Why? Because he played at UCF. If Kevin Smith had those numbers at Miami or Florida State, he might have won the Heisman over Tim Tebow...or at least make it interesting. (Tebow was pretty damn good, it might not have mattered) But, because it's UCF, nobody cared. 2,500 yards in a college season, and the nation yawned. Antwaan Randel El might have been a Heisman winner too...if only he had done it at Nebraska instead of Indiana.

Baylor, record or not, is simply not big time enough for a lot of Heisman voters to notice.

And, the reasons you listed are ridiculous. Nothing in your rebuttal actually refuted anything I said. The "It's Wisconsin" argument is ridiculous, and so is completely ignoring his stats simply because he played more games than Barry Sanders did. Like I said before...take Barry out of the equation. His stats, taken all by themselves, are flat out amazing.

A running back who gains more than 2,000 total yards from scrimmage and almost 40 TDs in a single season is deserving.

 

[Megatron]

Griffin won't win because it's Baylor. Nobody outside of the Big XII knows anything about him. Quick...name me the last Heisman winner to come from a relatively small school that does not enjoy national attention every year...Baylor is having a great year, but they aren't a "name" school. The last non "name" school to have a Heisman winner was probably Houston with Andre Ware in 1989. 22 years ago. When Ty Detmer won at BYU in 1990, BYU was still a "name" school from the 80s. They have fallen out of the national spotlight since, but at the time, BYU still garnered a lot of national attention.

They simply don't give the Heisman to players from small schools very often. I wasn't saying Baylor sucked, I was saying that they don't get enough national attention for RGIII to seriously be considered. You can't win if nobody sees you play, regardless of how good your stats might be.

Let me give you an example that might hit closer to home: Kevin Smith (Lions player, not the film director, obviously). His senior year, he rushed for over 2,500 yards and 29 TDs. He wasn't even mentioned in Heisman discussions. Why? Because he played at UCF. If Kevin Smith had those numbers at Miami or Florida State, he might have won the Heisman over Tim Tebow...or at least make it interesting. (Tebow was pretty damn good, it might not have mattered) But, because it's UCF, nobody cared. 2,500 yards in a college season, and the nation yawned. Antwaan Randel El might have been a Heisman winner too...if only he had done it at Nebraska instead of Indiana.

Baylor, record or not, is simply not big time enough for a lot of Heisman voters to notice.

And, the reasons you listed are ridiculous. Nothing in your rebuttal actually refuted anything I said. The "It's Wisconsin" argument is ridiculous, and so is completely ignoring his stats simply because he played more games than Barry Sanders did. Like I said before...take Barry out of the equation. His stats, taken all by themselves, are flat out amazing.

A running back who gains more than 2,000 total yards from scrimmage and almost 40 TDs in a single season is deserving.

Kevin Smiths not a very good comparison due to the fact that Baylor is a Big 12 team (and near the top 10 of the BCS) and UCF was just that... a CUSA team. Kellen Moore wasn't getting enough recongnition when Boise went undefeated for the same reason. And if you've taken a look at ESPNs recent heisman polls, Griffins at the top of most ballots.

And a good UW RB is like a good Texas Tech QB. They're a dime a dozen. Before Ball it was John Clay. Before Clay it was Brian Calhoun. Before Calhoun it was Dayne. Ball's had a great year, I'm not denying that, and he should finish top 3, but if you're not putting up the numbers in UW as a RB then you don't have much hope. It's a run heavy offense, even with guys like Wilson at QB. They always have a great O-Line. Same with TTU (when they had Leach). They didn't care who was their QB they were gonna be able to throw. That's the comparison I see. I just don't see Ball having the same aura around him like Tebow, Newton, Bush, etc. had. Griffins been talked about and been doing great things since that first game against TCU. Sure you could throw that into 'media hype' but sometimes that's just how it is.

Baylor might be a lower rung Big 12 school, but everyone will take notice when your pulling off upsets on (recent) powers like TCU, OU, and UT. Plus, between a QB and RB, they've lately gone QB, unless that RB was on a national title participant (which Ball isn't).

 

[Davi323]

And a good UW RB is like a good Texas Tech QB. They're a dime a dozen. Before Ball it was John Clay. Before Clay it was Brian Calhoun. Before Calhoun it was Dayne. Ball's had a great year, I'm not denying that, and he should finish top 3, but if you're not putting up the numbers in UW as a RB then you don't have much hope. It's a run heavy offense, even with guys like Wilson at QB. They always have a great O-Line. Same with TTU (when they had Leach). They didn't care who was their QB they were gonna be able to throw. That's the comparison I see. I just don't see Ball having the same aura around him like Tebow, Newton, Bush, etc. had. Griffins been talked about and been doing great things since that first game against TCU. Sure you could throw that into 'media hype' but sometimes that's just how it is.

Baylor might be a lower rung Big 12 school, but everyone will take notice when your pulling off upsets on (recent) powers like TCU, OU, and UT. Plus, between a QB and RB, they've lately gone QB, unless that RB was on a national title participant (which Ball isn't).

The thing is, Ball is having the best single season of any Badger running back, ever. What stats would a UW RB have to have to be considered for the Heisman? Does he have to rush for 3,000? Score 60 TDs? Take the stats for what they are...and what they are, shows that Montee Ball is the best RB in college football. Who gives a shit if Wisconsin is known for running? Every one of their opponents knows that too, and would focus on stopping him. He is still going to break 40 TDs in Pasadena, an almost unheard of feat.