Heel, Face.... Should There Be More Tweener Qualities?

[Steve-O-Matt]

I've been thinking, whenever I see someone go from face to heel, or heel to face, why is not a gradual progress? Why is it always a sudden thing that turns them, one week they're face, they do something bad and BOOM, they are now heel. To be honest, I don't really like that, it just gets a bit unbelievable...

It's not very common... At all really, but I do like a slow yet, powerful process, which culminates in one action overall. For example, the process that Orton went through to become face was great, people started to REALLY like him in the middle of him being a heel, which I love when that happens. But slowly more and more people started to cheer for him and it all came together when Cena announced that he would be is tag team partner in a match making the transaction complete.

Also I'd like to see more faces with heel qualities and more heels with face qualities, to mix it up a bit.

Aaaaand... I'd like to see more diverse commentators, I would much rather hear the genuine opinions of the experienced wrestlers and commentators who have seen so many matches throughout. I don't really want just a one guy is good, one guy is bad thing, it doesn't feel as organic. Don't get me wrong, I see it actually turning that way now, so I'm kinda happy. I just wanted to fit that in there.

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So here's your questions:

1) Should a heel/face turn be gradual process?

2) Do you get annoyed when you see two people who feuded with each other no less then a year ago, just tag team together with no bad blood between them whatsoever? By this I'm referencing a while ago when Punk tagged with Alberto... You'd think Alberto would hate that more being that Punk won the title he is holding off of him.

 

[Merkin353]

1) Yes... Everything needs time to build & with no end in sight to the WWE they have all the time in the world to do so...

2) The writers of the WWE have short term memory. And assume the fans do as well. I think a fight should have broke out between the two with bad blood at all times. But that's just me...

And to the other thing you said about faces have heel qualities and vice versa. I seriously do not get why they can't be both. Its up to the fans to decide who they like & Vince / writers try to take that away by always making the heel a little punk who runs away. Take Alberto last Friday on Smackdown. Is there any reason he said why wait until Sunday than walked back up the ramp? Other than to get heat it was pointless and Del Rio doesn't deserve any reaction from fans because he is boring. He should have got to the ring to have Barrett hit him from behind and the perfect time to jump in the ring and attack Orton. If Barrett is more of a man to take on Orton than why isn't Barrett in the ring this Sunday instead of Del Rio.

 

[scomvp316]

I totally agree with the whole ideaology of today's wrestling of faces and heels. That art died around 95. ECW did it well in the 90's and to a certain degree ROH follows that same concept. The frustrating part I have is Sheamus near the end of his heel run couldn't win a match but as a face is unbeatable. Same happened with Punk losing every feud but then beat the so-called man of the industry in Cena. I am a huge Punk fan but it would of better if he had beat Orton at WM and then build him up towards MITB. You would figure WWE would have learned from the Attitude Era. The one reason why wrestling worked in general from the late 90's was because most heels and faces their characters were in the gray area or more commonly knows as tweeners. VKM needs to stop thinking its 1985 and a talent should be the top guy based off of body of work not who he thinks is the most marketable. I get a good laugh at when fans talk about Punk's tattoes is the reason he shouldn't be a top guy but doesn't Taker have more tatts than Punk?

 

[MrPlatano1989]

I like a good mix of the two different ways to turn someone. When its a sudden change and its surprising, it gets me more excited to see what happens the following program and reasoning. When its a slower change, its gets me excited for the date it finally happens! Basically either way I'm good lol.

Now I know this is a WWE thread so sorry if I upset anyone, but TNA often's features some of the themes you've suggested. Commentators speak more freely like a sports event using their personalities, as oppose to sticking 100% towards a script or face/heel characteristics.

Also, TNA's Bully Ray has been one of the greatest heels this entire year. Well it seems he will be more face for at least the beginning of the current Aces & 8's storyline. People kind of saw it coming because of the way the fans supported and responded to him. During September's TNA's PPV No Surrender, he cut a heartfelt promo on how he has worked very hard for a chance an opportunity at the world title. Going forward at Bound For Glory he teamed up with Sting to defend the company and disallow Aces & 8's from gaining access. Many predicted that he would use this as a sit up to prove he's full blown heel, but he actually fought till the end in a losing effort and has been more face since.

Back in 2010 they teased Eric Bischoffs heel turn throughout the process of about 6 months, he was acting very negative towards certain people, but acting innocent towards Hulk.

If you haven't already and are interested in seeing any of this, just have a quick search on youtube! =)

 

[THTRobtaylor]

This isn't going to happen in a PG framework. If you are marketing mainly to kids, it relies on the "good v evil" framework. The irony of the promo Vince gave when he first started Attitude is heavy on the current product but at the basic level if you want parents to let their kids watch, to pay to come to shows and buy merch then it has to be inoffensive and conform to the norms of childrens entertainment... which is goodies and baddies, be it Team Rocket or Team Rhode's Scholars.

To deviate too much would risk parents or groups going after a character and WWE learned the hard way with Muhammed Hassan what that can do. If it's straight heels then they get their comeuppance if it's shades of gray then you are into the "Empire Strikes Back" thing of heels losing matches but "winning the war" which is against that PG message in the main.

What there is room for is more realism in those battles and WWE is treading a very fine line. It can tone things down in the ring, no blood etc but eventually it castrates the product.

Attitude was never the plan, it was a necessity as WCW was killing them but it was their last roll of the dice... George Lucas nearly didn't go with Darth Vader as Luke's father cos it was a massive risk and at the first chance he got, he changed the quintessential "shades of grey" moment of Han shooting first to make it more palatable to parents.

WWE's formula, however boring it is for older and more experienced fans is the right one for the kids it has always aimed at as it's main target audience and their parents. It's why Cena has never shown any real "edge", even the match with Lauraunitis was played for laughs rather than the violent match it appeared to be.

 

[,\../CowboysFromHell,\../]

Im really biased because Im a huge Attitude era wrestling fan. Some of the best heels in wrestling history came out of that era. But pro wrestling has always had a formula with faces and heels with a few exceptions.

Most faces are sqeaky clean good guys who care incapable of losing a match cleanly and Heels are tough talkers who run scared when they are faced with opposition.

I loved Triple H in late '99/'00. He broke the mold with his character. Sure, he would cheat, run, etc. But you knew that when it was time to turn it on, he could whip your ass in a heartbeat. Him cleanly taking out Cactus Jack at the 2000 Rumble was one of the best matches Ive ever seen and I loved that they allowed Triple H to win that cleanly. He was still a bastard and you wanted to see him get his ass kicked, but he was formidable.

 

[scomvp316]

Being PG doesn't mean that your product can't be edgy. There are alot of shows on tv today that are PG but get close to being TV-14 that have excellent ratings. I understand the marketing to kids but there are a few problems with that ideaology that you have to market a PG show towards kids. Ever since WWE made it official going back to PG the company has lost at least $200 mill as they are not approaching $800-900 mill. They have also lost an average of 4.5 mill fans. Back in the 80's JCP was rated PG and they were very successful of the in-ring business. Some may say well JCP was bought out by Turner but the in-ring business was very competitive with VKM it was the day to day operations of a company that JCP failed on. Even ROH these days is considered PG and they make some of their characters edgy. It can be done but it must be a balance between some characters marketd towards kids and the other characters a bit more edgy. Funny thing is all the shows I go to which includes WWE,ROH,and TNA more people under the age of 13 are wearing CM Punk's T-Shirts

 

[jpfizzle]

On the 1001st RAW, one week out from CM Punk planting the Rock and Jerry Lawler claiming he had turned his back on the WWE universe. Cm Punks promo that night was incredible. Sitting on the announcers table and saying with complete honesty that he is the current WWE Champion, representing the entire universe and not The Rock. I can't find a clip of it so I'm obviously paraphrasing.

That Promo could have been a huge turning point for the WWE and I felt that Punk showed some of the tweener qualities discussed in this thread. Over the weeks and months that followed Punk was watered way down to the point of being your bog standard cowardly heel but that night when he cut that promo he could have easily been so much more.

He could have been a tweener champion for the next generation. People who hadn't seen the Rock in his wrestling heyday, people bored of John Cena could have had a legit competitor to get behind in CM Punk. Part of his character is that he is not what you expect a WWE champion to be- doing things his way in his own style- a tweener Punk rather than just a heel would have been something far more entertaining for the WWE universe.

 

[scomvp316]

The whole turning Punk heel reminds of 1989 all over again. Savage was building momentum really challenging Hogan for the top spot until VKM decided no one under his watch will top Hogan until he decides its time to move on. Punk in every way from a wrestling standpoint is in a league all by himself. If this was 1999 WM would pit SCSA vs Punk two originators who forced VKM to push them because of the fans and not booking. Even in merchandise sales Punk in some months is ahead of Cena as they go back and forth on the top guy in merchandise. Turning Punk heel will curb all of his momentum just like Savage losing to Hogan at WM 5. To this day creative still doesn't know how to make Punk a star because the three idiots in HHH,SMH,and VKM will not allow it. Punk could be the greatest gift WWE has had since SCSA but management don't want their boy in cena to be anything less than the top guy!

 

[TheCrusher]

I have wrestlers that I like to watch, and it doesn't make a bit of difference to me if they are face or heel. I loved to watch Eddie G and Chris Benoit. Didn't matter how you packaged them. It's not just work rate guys, either. I always get a kick out of Big Show, face or heel. There's a long list of guys like that, and most of us have our own list.

I have always liked the kind of booking where you just put two guys in a feud against each other. They can mess with each other in any way they want. I'll cheer for my guy, you cheer for yours. If I like both guys, then I'm still happy because they are both on my TV for a while every week.

I don't need a face or a heel. And I watch wrestling with a nine-year-old who looks at it the same way. He likes who he likes. If he's a heel for a while, he cheers for the heel. Now, maybe he gets that from growing up watching wrestling with me. Maybe most kids aren't the same way. My eleven-year-old just loves the high fliers. Everyone else is kind of boring to him--except DB and Kane. He loves the skits and constantly makes references to Kane's big speech in Anger Management. But guess what? Those guys are tweeners who are just too damned entertaining to look away from. (At least the WWE hasn't taken their characters and made them babyfaces, though I fear they might.)

At any rate, there's an old man and two little kids who could care less who the faces and heels are. We just want to see the guys we like on our TV.

I don't have any girls, though. That's a demographic I may be missing when I consider all this. Maybe the female fans want handsome babyfaces. My guess is that they just want handsome guys who are interesting. It seems consistent with a lot of their other TV viewing. If a guy is good-looking and interesting, I don't think they much care whether he's being the hero or the antagonist.