Has The "Indie Era" Passed Him By?

[S.J. Maximus]

Too many times in WWE there have been "New Eras" that have really just been the same old bullshit, but at this point in time it definitely looks like we are finally in the midst of a new time. The Payback card signified that fact IMO, as everyone on the card besides Y2J, Miz, and Kofi were in their first 5 years in WWE. The main roster is full of guys who were "no-names" to the general public at this point last year, and WWE is going full throttle with this new wave of talent.

Unfortunately, the pacing of this new wave seemed to be sped up due to the timing of several injuries to the former "top guys" of the company. Cesaro came back and is hotter than ever. I'm sure Bray will come back with a bang and re-assert himself into top billing. Cena is the face of a generation and will continue to be "The face that runs the place" especially with the bombshell announcement of him hosting the ESPYs. Seth Rollins is arguably the best all-around performer in the world, if anyone should feel secure about their spot upon return it should be him. So my question is, where does this all leave Randy Orton?

At this point, we can all pretty much agree he's the #2 of the last decade after Cena. He has outlasted Batista, Jeff Hardy, Edge, CM Punk, and Daniel Bryan to earn that distinction. With that being said though, he clearly hasn't been booked in that same light as Cena for several years. He can definitely help with putting over these new indie guys but do you really think making him a Dolph Ziggler 2.0 enhancement talent is the best use of Orton's ability and legacy? At 36, he's actually younger than newest WWE main eventer AJ Styles but I'm also not sure if putting him back as a fixture in the title picture is what's best for him either.

Is WWE at a point where they're better off without their Apex Predator? As a huge Orton mark I'd obviously hope not but I'm not sure if he fits in at all with the current direction of the product. Ideally I'd give him the HBK 2005-2010 part time schedule to keep him fresh. It was during that time that HBK put out some of his best performances against the likes of Kurt Angle, Chris Jericho, Randy Orton, and The Undertaker. Maybe they can do that with Orton these next 5 years and we can see him make some magic with Brock Lesnar, AJ Styles, Kevin Owens, and Bray Wyatt.

I've been trying to cut my posts down because I know it's a lot to read, so my apologies. All in all, I just want to hear your opinions on how you think Randy Orton will fit in to this new Indie-dominated era of WWE?

 

[That N Word]

I have been saying this for awhile now. Orton just doesn't seem to enjoy it as much anymore. 2014 he was on fire. But after WrestleMania 31, he just seemed uninterested and bored. It may be best if Orton takes his retirement or just takes a four year hiatus. Right now, only dream storylines for him are vs. Rock,Brock,Styles,Bálor, and Wyatt. Bit lets be real Rock may never wrestle again,Brock would end Ortons career with his damaged shoulders and neck. That leaves Styles,Bálor and Wyatt. Wyatt was poised to be hi first feud back but Wyatt just turned face and Orton may never turn heel again. So I think that leaves a potential Orton vs. Bálor Club feud and a Face vs. Face Orton vs. Styles feud at WrestleMania 33. Maybe do Randy vs. Wyatt at SummerSlam or WrestleMania 34 and then retire from there or simply take a hiatus.

 

[Messiah]

Orton is one of the few reasons i still watch WWE, he doesn't need to be in the title picture at all, just utilize him and not book him in meaningless matches when he's one of the most over guys in the company.. He doesn't have many year's left in him, don't waste it.

 

[whoopin' ass]

This might actually give Orton a character now - the veteran fighting to keep his spot. One of the big issues I have had with Orton for years now is he serves no purpose. He is called the #2 guy in the company yet what has he done over the last few years? Can you think of a big angle or anything he has done that means anything considering he is the #2 guy? He has pretty much just floated about without any real purpose or direction. This could change that. With all the "rookie" talent coming in, Orton can come full circle - he started out as the Legend Killer taking out old talent to make his name, now he can be the legend that all the new talent tries to eliminate in order to get his spot. He can quit doing these meaningless heel/face turns and become just a guy trying to keep his spot while fighting off the young talent. Done right, he can make a ton of new stars without turning into a Slaughter or one of those former champs who is now a joke.

 

[resignedknight]

Even if he used as an enhancement talent, he is GREAT at that role. I honestly think his match with Rollins at WM was absolutely paramount in how well the whole surprise later in the night went down. He also had what I consider one of the most underrated matches in recent memory with Roman (I think it was Summerslam '14). To me, both of those matches show how well Orton can perform in that role. In the Roman match, he pulled out all kinds of little tricks to use Roman's size, strength, and aggressiveness against him. Of course, all those things were too much for Orton in the end, which helped get Roman over, but also made it clear that Orton is the fantastic veteran he is. It was great booking that got both guys over. And of course, the brilliant finish against Rollins shows that the old dog can still learn a few new tricks, and the spots that he could do with the legitimately great wrestlers from the Indy scene should make any fan of Orton and the young guys very excited. I also agree that if WWE consciously capitalizes on the hungry veteran eager to keep his spot, there could be great, great matches on the horizon for the apex predator.

 

[Sean Valjean]

Orton is a guy who gets a somewhat unjustified bad rap of being boring. He definitely is at times, but I feel that's mainly due to WWE regularly letting the guy languish for months (sometimes years), without meaningful stories before giving him something huge.

Because of this, people often forget that can still very much go in the ring. He's 2011 feud with Christian is one of the best in-ring rivalries in years. His series against Daniel Bryan in 2013 was great. He's one of the smoothest workers on the roster. A motivated Randy Orton backed by fan interest via a good story could tear down the house with just about any big name on the roster, from Styles to Zayn to Balor.

That's one of the reasons I'm excited to see him back. In addition to seeing him mix it up with the Kevin Owens and Cesaros of the roster, I'm very curious as to what his role will be. He almost has to be heel given the complete lack of main event villains.

As Whoopin'ass stated, having him be the anti-New Era veteran viciously protecting his spot out of fear could be perfect for him. It'd be the perfect foil to the current landscape. More importantly, the seeds for this character were already planted with his feud with Seth Rollins.

Seth was the new "future" who moved in on Orton's spot in the Authority, which ticked Randy off. There's already a precedent for his resentment of newcomers. Returning to a roster filled with new faces could be enough to grow that seed into full bloom.

Randy's place should be the "anti-indie" main event heel who puts on great matches with the new generation before inevitably putting them over.

 

[FromGlasgow]

Am I the only one here who doesn't think 36 is old and over the hill? Seriously? Anyone over like 12 years old here?
Bret Hart didn't win his first world title till he was 36 and Ric Flair was feuding with Harley Race and Dusty Rhodes over the NWA title when he was around 36, Hulk Hogan was facing Andre The Giant at wrestlemania 3 at 36 and Dallas Page didn't even start his wrestling career till he was 36 and nobody considered them old at the time but I guess if your complaining about Orton being too old you probably haven't even heard of those guys I gave for examples.
I'm not defending Orton in any way as I find his matches and interviews very dull but to critisize 36? If you dislike like seeing wrestlers over 36 just don't watch them anymore change the channel whenever they come on.

 

[thebarber]

Maybe the Legend Killer returns as the Indie guy Killer, going on a one man crusade taking out the internet darlings.

 

[resignedknight]

Am I the only one here who doesn't think 36 is old and over the hill? Seriously? Anyone over like 12 years old here?
Bret Hart didn't win his first world title till he was 36 and Ric Flair was feuding with Harley Race and Dusty Rhodes over the NWA title when he was around 36, Hulk Hogan was facing Andre The Giant at wrestlemania 3 at 36 and Dallas Page didn't even start his wrestling career till he was 36 and nobody considered them old at the time but I guess if your complaining about Orton being too old you probably haven't even heard of those guys I gave for examples.
I'm not defending Orton in any way as I find his matches and interviews very dull but to critisize 36? If you dislike like seeing wrestlers over 36 just don't watch them anymore change the channel whenever they come on.

Nobody is really saying he can't still go in the ring because of his age, so you're countering an argument that nobody is making. The discussion seems to be more focused on finding ways to get him energized and a fresh appeal. One of the side effects of being the youngest WWE champion is that it feels like he's been around a long time. Of the examples you list, Hogan was in his thirties when Hulkamania got rolling, and as you note, DDP was just getting started, so they never had to deal with the staleness that can creep in when you're 36 and have already been performing at the highest level for over a decade. We have pretty much all agreed that there is still opportunity for him to do his best work in the years ahead.

 

[Deoxyribonucleic A.C.I.D.]

Randy Orton is what I'd like to call over-exposed.

He's a 12-tme World Champion, RR winner and MITB winner. He's not so good on the muc but the great in the ring, when he cares. Even when HHH found himself in the same place in 2006, he found a way to re-invent himself, turn face, make DX good again.

That's what Orton needs as well. He needs a Jericho over-haul. Come back as a different gimmick. No Viper, No Evolution costume gimmick. Make something new. That's a way he can find his place back on the card.

 

[lazeric]

IMO the problem with Randy is for some strange reason he can't seem to get himself out of looking like a 2nd tier star. He just never, at least to me, seems to feel on the level of guys like Cena, HHH, Taker, and The Rock. I find myself thinking even when he's working with guys like Roman and Seth that he just doesn't seem as important. It may be me but he has a very B+ player vibe going on. I do think he would be perfect in a role where he's putting guys over. I've seen the examples of his matches with Seth and Roman but what about his feud with Kofi Kingston? He made Kofi look like a main event level talent. Imagine what he could do for Finn Balor, Baron Corben, and my personal favorite him in a match with Apollo Crews.

 

[shooter_mcgavin]

Orton hasn't done much in the WWE in almost half a decade and this is even before all these Indy talent joined the roster. Even his 2013/2014 World Title run he was more a pawn to Triple H and the Authority and doing his own thing.

I remember posting a thread (in which someone replied via PM that I'm an idiot) that Orton is a good talent but not a particularity great one. He has a good look but his matches are above average at best and his promo skills doesn't really stand out and it's not like he's improved significantly in any way.

I also pointed out before that Orton started out his WWE run already working with guys like Shawn Michaels, Ric Flair, Mick Foley, Undertaker, The Rock, Chris Benoit, and Triple H from the get go due to his "legend killer" gimmick. In the medium term it worked because working with those guys gave him the much needed exposure and experience to move up to the main event level. However on the flip side his first few years he had little experience working with people under or the same level as him. This caused a big problem with these guys since you don't have these big name legends carrying the feud Orton would have to do the heavy lifting. And it's no coincidence his feuds with Edge, Cena and Batista has all been considered lackluster to a certain degree. It's also no coincidence that around the time the big names either left or became WM only part timers, Orton's stocked dropped even more.

Sure Cena also worked with big names but he also had PPV matches with the likes of Rene Dupree, JBL, Big Show, some guy called Jesus, and a de-pushed Booker T and even worked in a number of SD TV matches with Rhyno. Sure those feuds weren't exactly memorable but he did work in programs where he had to carry the feud or carry the load more than Orton ever did. So now when you see Cena working with Bray Wyatt, Rusev, or Kevin Owens Cena is able to carry the feud much better than Orton ever did.

The influx of Indy talents could also be a problem. I always said taking the indy and international route before going to the WWE is always the best course of action. Even just being exposed to different promotions. It shows when guys like Daniel Bryan and CM Punk were the 1st, 2nd, or 3rd most over guys during their run. It's because if you grow up from the WWE System only it really limits your ability to differentiate yourself from the crowd and hone your skills with other 'schools of thought".

I mean look at the WWF boom periods during the 80's and Attitude Era. The 80's a lot of the guys were either the product of the AWA, wrestled extensively in Japan, worked in Indy's or a variation of the three. I mean if you look what happened when Vince McMahon bought the WWF from his father he poached a lot of talents from other promotions specifically AWA.

Now in the Attitude Era, I think Jim Cornette said it best, the superstars from the Attitude Era were the last guys to have worked in the Territory system then of course if you look at the tops stars at the time, sure you have home grown talents like The Rock Kurt Angle, and The Hardy Boyz but you have Triple H, Steve Austin, Mick Foley, Chris Jericho, Chris Benoit, Eddie Guerrero, Dudley Boys, Ron Simmons, and others all having exposure in WCW, ECW, and around the world before joining in the WWF

If you look at the periods from 2005 to 2012ish you could see most of the new talents in the WWE were "home grown" guys and to no one's surprised very few from that period ended up being established main event talents and the ones to flourish from that period were Punk, Bryan, and Rollins.

Let's look at the Miz. In his current program with Zayn, Cesaro, and Owens you could see the Miz looked really vanilla compared to the other three. Not just in the ring but in the mic, The Miz was cutting from "arrogant heel promo 101" while Owens promo work as a heel felt raw (no pun intended) and real in comparison.

It's hard to say what impact Orton will have once he joins and has to work with the likes of Owens. It could expose Orton even more or because guys like Owens, Styles, and Balor are all so seasoned that they could help carry the load more making Orton more relevant.

 

[Navi]

Don't know if it's so much that the Indie Era has passed him or if he just didn't want to keep up with it. When you look at Orton, and I like Orton, half the time he looks so friggin bored when he walks down that ramp. So I wonder to myself if he doesn't really care why should we. He generates one hell of reaction from the crowd but is that only because we're used to reacting that way too him?

He's been around a long time and never seems to have stepped up like Cena has. This is not an industry that can stagnate, you have to keep it fresh and moving along otherwise you risk losing part of your fanbase. Orton is stagnating somewhat. He's an amazing wrestler, but he's been doing it for so long now it seems that he is just going through the motions at times.

I would love to see him get his passion for the sport back and he still might do that, but the OP is right, others are passing him and he is right now in the rear view mirror. Surprising really because he was a huge part of Evolution, where if you fail to adapt you perish. Orton seems either not to be able or the WWE doesn't want him to adapt. It really doesn't matter where the new talent comes from, whether it be the performance centre or New Japan, the problem is as a wrestler you have to deal with it. The old guard is slowly being replaced and if he isn't careful there are a number of guys standing there waiting to take his spot.

 

[noTORRIEus]

As Whoopin'ass stated, having him be the anti-New Era veteran viciously protecting his spot out of fear could be perfect for him. It'd be the perfect foil to the current landscape. More importantly, the seeds for this character were already planted with his feud with Seth Rollins.

Seth was the new "future" who moved in on Orton's spot in the Authority, which ticked Randy off. There's already a precedent for his resentment of newcomers. Returning to a roster filled with new faces could be enough to grow that seed into full bloom.

Randy's place should be the "anti-indie" main event heel who puts on great matches with the new generation before inevitably putting them over.

Love this. You can play off of his "voices in my head" theme where no one is questioning his spot on the roster or in the business but "the voices" are telling him he has to prove his self every night. A Legend Killer returned

 

[Uncle Sam]

Randy Orton, like most great wrestlers, is a chameleon. He's just at home wrestling Rob Van Dam as he is The Big Show. You'd never ask if Triple H could keep up with Daniel Bryan, so why ask if Orton can keep up with Sami Zayn? Orton isn't under threat. In fact, with the old guard receding more and more as the days go by, he's just got a new set of toys to play with.

 

[Jack-Hammer]

It's hard to say where Randy Orton is concerned. The last I read, Orton was said to be nowhere close to being ready to return; as a result, I'm left with the opinion that his bad shoulder, which has been giving him problems for years, is truly just getting worse as time goes by and may have a huge impact on his career going forward. I wouldn't be at all surprised if Orton moved into a part time sort of role in which he comes around a few times a year, or maybe stays an extended period before taking an extended period off, etc. because of the injury and because there's not much left for him to do aside from potentially putting over younger/fresher talent.

Orton's 36 years old, still a very young man in life and he's still viable as a star in WWE. As I alluded to earlier though, there's nothing left for him to do in terms of winning big matches or championships. Whenever he does return, I wouldn't mind seeing him in one of the mid-card title scenes as we saw with John Cena because let's face it, not many people are overly anxious to see Randy Orton as WWE Champion once more. Also, I don't think there'd be a ton of interest in a Roman Reigns vs. Randy Orton title feud.

For me, seeing Orton potentially team up with someone to enter the tag team scene, depending upon the partner, has promise. The notion of seeing Orton feud over the IC or US title has a lot of promise, working programs with guys like Owens, Zayn, Cesaro, Corbin, Ambrose, Big Cass, Styles, etc. all have tons of promise to offer Orton something very fresh.

Orton is someone who can wrestle great matches with any opponent, he's proven that by wrestling everyone from Big Show to Rey Mysterio to Mark Henry to Daniel Bryan. I've no doubt whatsoever he can more than hold his own with any of the "indie guys" on the roster.

 

[whoopin' ass]

Am I the only one here who doesn't think 36 is old and over the hill? Seriously? Anyone over like 12 years old here?

36 isn't old but he has been pushed hard for a decade now and is a multitime champ. Bret wasn't pushed like that. He is old in tv terms because he has spent so much time on tv and won the title so many times that people can't remember a time without him.

 

[lil steroid meat]

He's definitely gonna be the new 05-10 HBK in the sense of him being a reputable enough talent that takes mid-card talent to the next level but at the same time, when a main eventer is needed because of injury or to shake things up in the title picture, he can be in that role also.

With a roster full of fresh faces, he has plenty to do. A Orton-Kevin Owens or Orton-Ambrose feud is potentially gold.

Personally I'd put him in a tag team with someone that needs something new to do. Maybe make him and Ambrose a stable of crazy ass dudes.

 

[xavyer]

I think that once he's back, there are a few rivalries waiting for him, if he's still a Face, a feud against Kevin Owens or Corbin Baron would be great for everyone, keeps him relevant and he helps elevate their status, also, he has enough gas on the tank for a few more title runs, and to put people over as well, he is still pretty much valuable for the Company......

 

[kadroan]

Too many times in WWE there have been "New Eras" that have really just been the same old bullshit, but at this point in time it definitely looks like we are finally in the midst of a new time. The Payback card signified that fact IMO, as everyone on the card besides Y2J, Miz, and Kofi were in their first 5 years in WWE. The main roster is full of guys who were "no-names" to the general public at this point last year, and WWE is going full throttle with this new wave of talent.

Unfortunately, the pacing of this new wave seemed to be sped up due to the timing of several injuries to the former "top guys" of the company. Cesaro came back and is hotter than ever. I'm sure Bray will come back with a bang and re-assert himself into top billing. Cena is the face of a generation and will continue to be "The face that runs the place" especially with the bombshell announcement of him hosting the ESPYs. Seth Rollins is arguably the best all-around performer in the world, if anyone should feel secure about their spot upon return it should be him. So my question is, where does this all leave Randy Orton?

At this point, we can all pretty much agree he's the #2 of the last decade after Cena. He has outlasted Batista, Jeff Hardy, Edge, CM Punk, and Daniel Bryan to earn that distinction. With that being said though, he clearly hasn't been booked in that same light as Cena for several years. He can definitely help with putting over these new indie guys but do you really think making him a Dolph Ziggler 2.0 enhancement talent is the best use of Orton's ability and legacy? At 36, he's actually younger than newest WWE main eventer AJ Styles but I'm also not sure if putting him back as a fixture in the title picture is what's best for him either.

Is WWE at a point where they're better off without their Apex Predator? As a huge Orton mark I'd obviously hope not but I'm not sure if he fits in at all with the current direction of the product. Ideally I'd give him the HBK 2005-2010 part time schedule to keep him fresh. It was during that time that HBK put out some of his best performances against the likes of Kurt Angle, Chris Jericho, Randy Orton, and The Undertaker. Maybe they can do that with Orton these next 5 years and we can see him make some magic with Brock Lesnar, AJ Styles, Kevin Owens, and Bray Wyatt.

I've been trying to cut my posts down because I know it's a lot to read, so my apologies. All in all, I just want to hear your opinions on how you think Randy Orton will fit in to this new Indie-dominated era of WWE?

Yeah, Orton has done a lot in 14 times. He's had great heel and face runs but it's time for him to give back if he's going to be in the main event picture.

I'd love for him to be IC or US Champion and try to elevate the mid card picture, can't expect Rusev and Miz to be in the mid card forever.

 

[Charismatic Enigma]

Randy Orton is what I'd like to call over-exposed.

He's a 12-tme World Champion, RR winner and MITB winner. He's not so good on the muc but the great in the ring, when he cares. Even when HHH found himself in the same place in 2006, he found a way to re-invent himself, turn face, make DX good again.

That's what Orton needs as well. He needs a Jericho over-haul. Come back as a different gimmick. No Viper, No Evolution costume gimmick. Make something new. That's a way he can find his place back on the card.

This pretty much says it all for me.

I don't find Randy interesting, and rarely ever have, but he got too much too soon. In an effort to eradicate Brock being the youngest champ, they gave the world to Randy at a very young age, and he was basically booked at the top from that point forward. What does he have left to accomplish? Who does he feud with?

The best thing he could do at this point would be to stay away, I'd give him another year off at least. Let the roster have some turn over and then have him come back with a purpose. At the moment, if he came back all he'd be doing is taking away TV time from the people we actually want to see like AJ and Rollins.

 

[The Dark Warlords]

Good question. I feel like with guys like Orton, Cena, and Lesnar they are at a point to where they need to have one of those "End Of An Era" moments. similar like Undertaker, Michaels, and HJHH did a few years ago. I do thing that The Era of Ruthless Aggression is unspokenly coming to an end. So i think if this is the case, i feel ALL THREE should be giving their last few years run.

What i am saying is that Orton should be given that one last mega push that can last about the next 3 years or so. Main event feuds, world title reigns etc.. But instead of dropping the title to Cena and Lesnar, have him drop it to the new guard like Owens, Cesaro, those guys. I believe that is the best way to go because it gives the best of both worlds. Putting over the new talent while giving him a last true Mega Main Event Push. Then after that, maybe a Hell In A Cell Match between Lesnar, Cena, and Orton at Wrestlemania to End The Ruthless Aggression Era.