Greatest By Position: Pitcher

[CH David]

Now that the pitchers threads have died down a smidge, I figure it is time I start another series, in addition to my Greatest Rivalry series. So we had some words, and this is mainly due to Yankees fans feeling that Mariano Rivera is the greatest pitcher of all the times. I say make that argument because this thread is about the Greatest Pitcher of all time. However, and this point shouldn't have to be made, but I'll say it anyway, if you want to choose a pitcher that is still tossing the leather, then go for it, as long as he has been pitching for at least 10 years.

I am going to get my post in probably later tonight, as I'm trying to decide between two pitchers. However, Yankees fans, get your sploogetastic posts about Rivera ready, and post them. Everyone else, who do you think is the Greatest Pitcher in MLB history?

 

[The Brain]

This is really hard because of how the game has changed over the years and decades. The game was a lot different in the early 1900’s. Pitchers used to pitch up to 400 innings per year back then which gave them a lot more wins (or losses) and strike outs. I wasn’t sure if I should pick someone with ridiculous numbers from 100 years ago or someone a little more modern.

I finally decided to go with Walter Johnson. Despite how different the game was back then you just can’t ignore his numbers. He had over 400 wins and over 3500 strike outs and more shutouts than anyone ever. He had at least 20 wins from 1910-1919 including seven straight seasons with at least 25. What really sealed it for him was his amazing era. In his first 15 years his highest era was 2.22. That’s insane. Most guys would be thrilled his that was their lowest era. Only twice in his first 15 years his era was above 2. In 21 seasons his career era is 2.17.

I wanted to name someone from my lifetime, but I just can’t ignore the Big Train. Maybe I’ll post later with the best pitcher of the last 30 years.

 

[Megatron]

Honestly, I couldn't vote for anyone from the dead-ball area because of never witnessing them, so I tried to keep it within the past 50 years or so.

Anyways, after looking at it long and hard, I cut it down to 3 guys - Roger Clemens, Randy Johnson, and Nolan Ryan. All 300 game winners, all had over 4000 strikeouts, all had an era below 3.30, which is very impressive. Ryan has had the most no-hitters of all time, Johnson is one of the greatest lefthanded pitchers in MLB history, and Clemens has the most Cy Youngs of anyone.

Of the three, I choose Clemens, despite the rumors or PED use. He's won 7 Cy Young's, 2 more then the next closest, who is Johnson. 11x All-Star, 1 time MVP, and 2 WS Titles. While his record isn't fantastic in the playoffs (14-10, 3.75 ERA), his World Series stats are very amazing (3-0 in 8 starts, 2.37 ERA). My vote is Clemens, but it was a tough call.

 

[CH David]

This is really hard because of how the game has changed over the years and decades. The game was a lot different in the early 1900’s. Pitchers used to pitch up to 400 innings per year back then which gave them a lot more wins (or losses) and strike outs. I wasn’t sure if I should pick someone with ridiculous numbers from 100 years ago or someone a little more modern.

I finally decided to go with Walter Johnson. Despite how different the game was back then you just can’t ignore his numbers. He had over 400 wins and over 3500 strike outs and more shutouts than anyone ever. He had at least 20 wins from 1910-1919 including seven straight seasons with at least 25. What really sealed it for him was his amazing era. In his first 15 years his highest era was 2.22. That’s insane. Most guys would be thrilled his that was their lowest era. Only twice in his first 15 years his era was above 2. In 21 seasons his career era is 2.17.

I wanted to name someone from my lifetime, but I just can’t ignore the Big Train. Maybe I’ll post later with the best pitcher of the last 30 years.

I was back and forth between Johnson and Warren Spahn. The gentleman of baseball is #4 on the list of 100 Greatest Baseball Players ever. That is the highest rank for any pitcher, with Grover Cleveland Alexander at 12 and Cy Young coming in at 14. The only players higher than Walter Johnson, Babe Ruth, Willie Mays, and Ty Cobb respectively.

I'll go into his stuff a little more in depth. 417 wins and 279 losses. A career ERA 2.17. That is disgusting right there, even for the dead-ball era. 5,914 1/3 innings pitched in his career. Almost 6,000 innings pitched in his career. Only Cy Young and Pud Galvin have more. Cy Young had 7,354 2/3, and Pud had 6,003 1/3, but he pitched in a time where stress on the arm was not as great as it was during Cy Young or Walter Johnson's career. 666 games started, with 531 complete games. 531 COMPLETE GAMES!!! 110 shutouts, which stands as a record. In that time, he had only hit 203 batters. Almost 6,000 innings, and only 203 hit batsmen. He also had over 3,500 strikeouts.

That sidearm delivery of his made him one of the most feared pitchers in baseball, throwing a cool 91 MPH, which at the time was pretty much unheard of. Who knows how hard he would throw if he was over the top. Being the gentleman he was, he always feared hitting the batters in the box. Both were feared, lol. Walter Johnson deserves his nod. A great competitor, gentleman of the game, and amazing stats.

Honestly, I couldn't vote for anyone from the dead-ball area because of never witnessing them, so I tried to keep it within the past 50 years or so.

So because you didn't witness them, you can't even give credit to how great they were? If anything go with Warren Spahn, the winningest lefty in history. He would be from the last 50 years. You appear to not acknowledge older talent, no matter how great they were.

 

[Megatron]

It's not that, it's that during Young's, Johnsons, and Alexander's time, there were only 4 times in 20 years that the league leader in HR's had over 20. Sure, you could say that these pitchers were why their stats were so low, but the matter of truth is, these guys did not face many 'great' hitters during their time, as many of the greats, such as Ruth, Gehrig, and others, only began their career as the era ended. The spitball and emery pitch were used, which gave pitchers a great advantage. The balls were also used for a heavy amount of pitches, sometimes over 100, which gave hitters less power onto the ball.

Don't get me wrong, those pitchers are all some of baseball's greats, but they played in a time where most of the hitters were not up to par to what Clemens, Johnson, and Ryan went against. That's why I had them in my top 3, and not Walter Johnson, Young, and Alexander.

For the record, if Sandy Koufax would've pitched even 5 more years at the rate he was pitching when he was forced into retirement, he would've been my number one, bar none. Hell, he's probably in my top 15 for his dominance in the few short years he was with the Dodgers.

 

[Rhonda Rousey's Sports Bra]

I'm going to meet everyone halfway with a mix of old school and new school, Bob Gibson is my choice. 1968 was one of the greatest single seasons ever played by a pitcher, that pitcher was Bob Gibson. That one season of dominance lead to what many think of as the reason the mound was lowered six inches the following season. It wasn't just Gibson's pitching that made him great but his defense aswell winning 9 Gold Gloves. Gibson was also one of the better hitting pitchers throughout his 17 year career with a .206 career average and 7 homeruns and 39 RBI.

 

[TwistofRKO]

You can't go off that ridiculous bridge in saying he doesn't respect or acknowledge any older talents. You're stacking up many different eras of the sport and difficulty and expecting 1 answer? He's at no fault for not choosing someone from an older generation. Its no different than when people ignore great QBs like Otto Graham in the QB discussion. Its almost impossible to compare.

Bob Feller, Bob Gibson, Walter Johnson, Christy Mathewson, Robin Roberts, etc... All amazing pitchers, and no slight intended, but I'm going off of what I know. Bob Feller was flat-out dominating, Gibson, the same. While I'm comfortable in my knowledge of baseball history, I'm not going to base an entire argument off of what I really don't "know". I can't do that. If someone else here, great. It adds a lot to the discussion, and is a great perspective. Just don't trash other people for not doing the same thing.

Pedro Martinez in his prime, the Greatest Pitcher of All-Time. You can make a case for Randy Johnson, Roger Clemens, or Greg Maddux and I'd be hard-pressed to argue due to their long-term reign in the mound, but from 1997-2003, Pedro put together better work than anybody. 13 Complete Games in 1997 alone. He was under a 2 ERA twice, in the resurgence of the power era! He was barely over 2 (2.07) another time and never reached an ERA of 3. His Ks/9inn was extraordinary, as good as 13ks every 9 innings on average, and posted great Ks/BB numbers. Pedro was dominant in the toughest time to be dominant.

 

[Rhonda Rousey's Sports Bra]

You can't go off that ridiculous bridge in saying he doesn't respect or acknowledge any older talents. You're stacking up many different eras of the sport and difficulty and expecting 1 answer? He's at no fault for not choosing someone from an older generation. Its no different than when people ignore great QBs like Otto Graham in the QB discussion. Its almost impossible to compare.

Bob Feller, Bob Gibson, Walter Johnson, Christy Mathewson, Robin Roberts, etc... All amazing pitchers, and no slight intended, but I'm going off of what I know. Bob Feller was flat-out dominating, Gibson, the same. While I'm comfortable in my knowledge of baseball history, I'm not going to base an entire argument off of what I really don't "know". I can't do that. If someone else here, great. It adds a lot to the discussion, and is a great perspective. Just don't trash other people for not doing the same thing.

Pedro Martinez in his prime, the Greatest Pitcher of All-Time. You can make a case for Randy Johnson, Roger Clemens, or Greg Maddux and I'd be hard-pressed to argue due to their long-term reign in the mound, but from 1997-2003, Pedro put together better work than anybody. 13 Complete Games in 1997 alone. He was under a 2 ERA twice, in the resurgence of the power era! He was barely over 2 (2.07) another time and never reached an ERA of 3. His Ks/9inn was extraordinary, as good as 13ks every 9 innings on average, and posted great Ks/BB numbers. Pedro was dominant in the toughest time to be dominant.

I like your logic of arguing for a guy you know more about. I know more about Gibson even though I never saw him play so I went with him. I will however disagree with your choice for the stats you posted yourself. Gibson has a lower career ERA, not much lower, but still lower. Compare 13 complete games in 1997 to being over 10 in all but 4 years in Gibson's career not to mention 28 in back to back years. Pedro has him in Ks per 9 and Ks per BB. But Gibson's stand out season in 68 was better than Pedro's best year in 2000. Pedro is one of the greats but not greater than Gibson.

 

[TwistofRKO]

Bob Gibson was certainly a dominant pitcher, and that 1968 season will go down as one of the best single-season performances in not only baseball, but all of sports.

But here it gets a little tricky. Gibson, and pitchers in general threw A LOT more innings back then. Kudos on their mechanics and endurance to allow them to do that, throwing over 300 innings. Freakin' insane! But his other numbers are way down in comparison, especially the Ks and BBs (well up, you know what I mean) and Pedro's prime year ERAs are a lot better, as well as maintaining a longer prime. This is why its a difficult to compare them. You can't just take away from the innings Gibson threw, but Pedro was more dominant over more years.

That's why I gave Pedro the edge, plus the power-surge in the late 90s, playing in two tough divisions gave him additionally tougher competition. I'm not going to slight Bob Gibson, at all, I just can't make the argument for him myself.

 

[RVDgurl]

Greg Maddux

This guy was freakin' a-mazing to watch. He had uncanny control- he spotted the ball better than anyone in the history of the game. He is one of only 2 guys to win the Cy Young 4 years in a row; he racked up more wins than anyone in the 90's; he's the only pitcher to win 15 games in 17 consecutive year and he holds the record with 18 gold gloves. Not to shabby for a guy who rarely broke 90mph on his fastball.

 

[The People's Peep]

Ok im finally making my case and for those who attend The Sports Bar regularly, you know that I also think Greg Maddux is the best pitcher. Just as RVDgurl said, 4 straight Cy's, 355 wins, 8 time all star, and 18 gold gloves. He has the ring, so he is a champion. What puts him above everyone else is his intelligence. The guy is widely regarded as one of the smartest players to ever play the game. He always knew exactly what the hitter was thinking and was very good at outsmarting them. To help him outsmart them, he had pin-point accuracy with nearly all of his pitches and had great movement on all of them. His two-seam fastball was UNBELIEVABLE! Left handed hitters would back up like it was going to hit them, then it ran back and finished right on the black.

To be a good pitcher, you dont need to throw a 95 mph fastball. Pitching also takes intelligence and finesse and Greg Maddux did that and made an excellent career out of it.

 

[Theo Mays]

This guy isn't the best pitcher of all time, but I like to consider him the most underrated pitcher of all time and the best left handed pitcher to ever pitch a baseball (pretty large claim I know). Without further adieu I give you...

Steve "Lefty" Carlton

Yeah, yeah he is a Phillie. Call me a homer all you want, but I never said I was coming in here to name him the best of all time. I just felt he needed some mentioning (and I consider him the best lefty in history). His resume is pretty darn impressive. A 10x all star, 4x Cy Young winner, 2 World Series wins, and one Gold Glove. He has 329 career wins (2nd amongst leftys, 11th all time), 244 losses (yeah that is a bit much, but considering the guy pitched 254 CG and was involved in the decision virtually every game), 4,136 (4th all time, from 1982-84 he was 1st on the list), and a career ERA of 3.22, he has pitched over 5,000 innings in his career, has a SO/9 ratio of 7.1 and a 2.26 SO/BB ratio. Again I'm not saying he is the greatest, but I just felt he deserved mentioning as possibly the best lefty pitcher of all time.

 

[The Brain]

This guy isn't the best pitcher of all time, but I like to consider him the most underrated pitcher of all time and the best left handed pitcher to ever pitch a baseball (pretty large claim I know). Without further adieu I give you...

Steve "Lefty" Carlton

Yeah, yeah he is a Phillie. Call me a homer all you want, but I never said I was coming in here to name him the best of all time. I just felt he needed some mentioning (and I consider him the best lefty in history). His resume is pretty darn impressive. A 10x all star, 4x Cy Young winner, 2 World Series wins, and one Gold Glove. He has 329 career wins (2nd amongst leftys, 11th all time), 244 losses (yeah that is a bit much, but considering the guy pitched 254 CG and was involved in the decision virtually every game), 4,136 (4th all time, from 1982-84 he was 1st on the list), and a career ERA of 3.22, he has pitched over 5,000 innings in his career, has a SO/9 ratio of 7.1 and a 2.26 SO/BB ratio. Again I'm not saying he is the greatest, but I just felt he deserved mentioning as possibly the best lefty pitcher of all time.

Another thing worth mentioning is his amazing 1972 season. He won his first of four Cy Young Awards for a last place team. The Phillies only won 59 games that year and Carlton won 27 of them. He had 10 losses but only a .197 ERA. If the team was any good that year Carlton could have won close to 35 games while being in single digits for losses.

 

[TwistofRKO]

Greg Maddux

This guy was freakin' a-mazing to watch. He had uncanny control- he spotted the ball better than anyone in the history of the game. He is one of only 2 guys to win the Cy Young 4 years in a row; he racked up more wins than anyone in the 90's; he's the only pitcher to win 15 games in 17 consecutive year and he holds the record with 18 gold gloves. Not to shabby for a guy who rarely broke 90mph on his fastball.

As a Braves fan I loved him. The story of him hitting all of his spots in his pre-game bullpen, with his eyes closed, pretty much summed him up. He was amazing. In addition to everything you already said, he was very valuable as a hitter/bunter for a pitcher. He's one of my all-time favorite athletes.

We've seen Pedro, Clemens, and Maddux, I want to see an argument for Randy Johnson. That list sums up the best 4 pitchers of my lifetime.

 

[Scotty]

Another man who isn't the best of all time, but definitely deserves a nod.

John Smoltz. The man is the only pitcher to ever accumulate 200 wins and 150 saves. That is an amazing feat. Add that to his 3,000+ strikeouts and a career ERA hovering slighty over 3 and that is a man I will state a case for any day of the week. It was a painful day for me to see him put on the Red Sox cap and jersey and know that his tenure as a Brave was over. Now I feel that he will continue his career as a successful baseball announcer somewhere. John Smoltz is my favorite pitcher of all time and he at least deserves a nod.