Gold Medal Ironman Match - Shawn Michaels (USA) vs Chris Benoit (CAN)

[D-Man]

Lol... answer me this, D-Man, what happened in the main event at Wrestlemania 20, which was being billed as the biggest Wrestlemania in history at the time?

I love Shawn Michaels, but Benoit would win this match, no doubt. D-Man talks about Benoit choking... shit, I'm pretty sure if we looked it up, Benoit has more wins over Triple H than ANYONE post 2003. If Benoit was so dominating over HHH... then why wouldn't it be the same against HBK? And hell... didn't Benoit beat HHH himself in a match JUST LIKE THIS on Raw one time? Yep, he sure did, to retain the World Title, too.

Once again, you guys aren't reading my posts in full.

During Wrestlemania XX, HBK was past his prime. I feel that an HBK from the New Generation --> Attitude Era of the WWE could defeat Chris Benoit, who was known as a choke artist, in his prime.

Benoit had a good run for 8 months... the time between winning the Royal Rumble and holding the WWE Championship for 5 months before losing it to a 24-year old Randy Orton. Besides that, he was always tetering on main event status, but only went as far as being a strong midcarder. That is FACT.

HBK had an incredible win/loss record during his first main event run, which lasted for almost 2 years. His only loss from his championship run after WM12 was against Sycho Sid, and he gained the championship back 2 months later. Then it was vacated due to injury (or controversy... whatever) and he regained it at the Monteal Screwjob and held it until Wrestlemania against Steve Austin.

This tramples over Chris Benoit's lackluster reign. I don't care how tough he portrays himself, HBK is more experienced and has a better track record as a top spot superstar.

 

[Nitafrong]

I think my vote has to go Chris Benoit way here. When considering all the matches that I have seen both in and the relative dominance that Chris Benoit had at his height in these kind of brusing encounters I think he would have the edge on Shawn Michaels here who would not be able to put the Canadian down as easy as would occur vice- versa. So while it would be a very close and tightly fought match- I see the toll that Chris will have brought down on Shawn as being too much for him to recover from- especially considering the past matches.

 

[jmt225]

Once again, you guys aren't reading my posts in full.

During Wrestlemania XX, HBK was past his prime. I feel that an HBK from the New Generation --> Attitude Era of the WWE could defeat Chris Benoit, who was known as a choke artist, in his prime.

I disagree. Michaels has had way more classic matches since his return in 2002 then he did back during the mid-nineties run.

Moreover, from a kayfabe perspective, the competition of the last 8 years have been way tougher than the guys HBK beat during the mid-nineties, when you look at the big picture. You don't think Cena would have been able to beat all the guys HBK beat? HHH of this decade couldn't defeat those guys? Randy Orton? Kurt Angle? Come on, D-Man.

Benoit had a good run for 8 months... the time between winning the Royal Rumble and holding the WWE Championship for 5 months before losing it to a 24-year old Randy Orton.

Michaels lost to a 23-year-old Randy Orton at Unforgiven the year before... what's your point?

Besides that, he was always tetering on main event status, but only went as far as being a strong midcarder. That is FACT.

Not exactly. Benoit made it to the top of WCW, but decided to head to WWE instead. So, not a fact, my man.

HBK had an incredible win/loss record during his first main event run, which lasted for almost 2 years. His only loss from his championship run after WM12 was against Sycho Sid, and he gained the championship back 2 months later. Then it was vacated due to injury (or controversy... whatever) and he regained it at the Monteal Screwjob and held it until Wrestlemania against Steve Austin.

Agreed, it was a nice little run, but I'd argue that Benoit's record against HHH is more impressive than anything HBK did back then. Besides, it's not like HBK was beating the best of the best at this point. Sid and Diesel were his most impressive wins, but pretty much everyone else was a joke. Over the hill versions of Davey Boy and Vader, Goldust... Benoit in his prime would kill all these clowns, and you know it.

This tramples over Chris Benoit's lackluster reign. I don't care how tough he portrays himself, HBK is more experienced and has a better track record as a top spot superstar.

I disagree completely.

Like I said... HBK, during what YOU say is his prime, had perhaps the weakest line-up of challengers any long-term World Champion has ever had, which is why WWE's numbers reached an all time low during that time.

I love, love, love HBK, and the mid-nineties version is my favorite, but Benoit would simply destroy him in this type of match-up. There's no two ways about.

 

[X]

Once again, you guys aren't reading my posts in full.

During Wrestlemania XX, HBK was past his prime. I feel that an HBK from the New Generation --> Attitude Era of the WWE could defeat Chris Benoit, who was known as a choke artist, in his prime.

Really? Benoit was a choke artist in his prime? Are you joking me? Was that before or after he was winning the most prestigious wrestling tournament on the globe, the Super J Cup? Because he won that in 1994 and held several of the top titles for junior heavyweights on the globe through out the 90s before he even made it into WCW and the like. Oh, and he was a World Champion in WCW too which people seem to forget.

Benoit in his prime was a choke artist? Surely you MUST be joking me.

 

[TheOneBigWill]

Once again, you guys aren't reading my posts in full.

Well, you don't read anyone else's so why should they bother doing you any favors in return?

During Wrestlemania XX, HBK was past his prime. I feel that an HBK from the New Generation --> Attitude Era of the WWE could defeat Chris Benoit, who was known as a choke artist, in his prime.

Chris Benoit, in his prime, was on the top of W.C.W, jumped to the W.W.E and only went up. He jumped to the W.W.E and instantly defeated The Rock, who was one of the top 2 Main Event guys in the company.

From there, he went on to win multiple Intercontinental (midcard, as you will see it) Championships, a Royal Rumble, and a Heavyweight title at Wrestlemania XX. Not just any Wrestlemania, but one that will be viewed as a cornerstone in the list of Mania's. (Mania 1, 10, 2000, 20) So on, so forth.

HBK in his prime defeated a career list of midcards; namely the British Bulldog and Owen Hart. He had a war with Vader, one I might add that he had to have the match continue 3 times before he could finally win - even though he lost the first two parts of that match. A no contest with Mankind, and a loss to an aging Sid Vicious.

Yes, HBK in his prime was something. I'm shocked you didn't throw in his pinfall victory over Jim Cornette. That would've surely put him over the top. Oh.. shit.. wait, no, he actually LOST to Jim Cornette.

Benoit had a good run for 8 months... the time between winning the Royal Rumble and holding the WWE Championship for 5 months before losing it to a 24-year old Randy Orton.

And in that time, defeated; Triple H, Shawn Michaels, Kane, and a host of other guys in between. All before losing to an up-and-coming future Main Event star in Randy Orton.

So.. let's see. Benoit loses to a guy just coming into his prime in Orton.

HBK loses to Sid Vicious.. a guy closing in on his 40's at that time? How is HBK's loss not seen as worse?

Besides that, he was always tetering on main event status, but only went as far as being a strong midcarder. That is FACT.

No, whats a FACT is you just like using that word to make idiots who don't know any better think you actually know what you're talking about. When the truth is, its nothing more than an opinion. And an awful one, at that.

Chris Benoit was a strong midcarder, because everyone always viewed him as being better than the midcard level. Just because a Company holds you down, doesn't mean you can't compete at a higher level. And once Benoit got his opportunity, he took control over every moment and made the most of them.

Shawn Michaels only seemed to find random reasons to leave the Company whenever he was meant to 'decline'. "Thugs" attacking him outside a night club. Lost smiles. Broken backs. Swollen anus. Hey, I'm not here to judge. Just giving you what by your standards would be considered "FACTS".

HBK had an incredible win/loss record during his first main event run, which lasted for almost 2 years. His only loss from his championship run after WM12 was against Sycho Sid, and he gained the championship back 2 months later. Then it was vacated due to injury (or controversy... whatever) and he regained it at the Monteal Screwjob and held it until Wrestlemania against Steve Austin.

Incredible? Thats hardly the word I'd use to describe it. More like lack-luster, over rated and barely note-worthy. He defeated who, during this time?

Diesel: Who was leaving the Company.
British Bulldog: It took him two monthes, at the KotR, before he could get a clean victory - after the Bulldog pinned his shoulders to the mat just the same a month prior.
Vader: Again, it took him three tries. He lost the first two. Vader also held non-title victories over him numerous times.
Mankind: Their match was a no contest.
Sid Vicious: Lost to him at Survivor Series.
--
Sid Vicious: Regained the title at the Rumble.
Vacated title before getting the chance to drop it at Mania.
Bret Hart: Screwjob.
Undertaker: Barely won a Casket match - with Kane, Outlaws, Triple H and Savio's group all pitching a helping hand.
Steve Austin: Lost title at Mania - 'retired' shortly thereafter.

Is that what you would call Incredible?

Six whole victories, all of which tagged with questionable acts and reasons on why he even won to begin with?

This tramples over Chris Benoit's lackluster reign.

Oh yeah.. Benoit never had nearly as many controversies happening during his reign. It was more clear-cut he WAS the true Champion, and no one ever really beat him until they actually did beat him and took the title.

I don't care how tough he portrays himself, HBK is more experienced and has a better track record as a top spot superstar.

Do me one favor. Just name me ONE title match, that was on a high profile level, that Shawn Michaels HAS WON that didn't have some type of controversy attached to it. Just one. If Shawn is so much greater on the Main Event stage then surely you could name several, so one wouldn't be a problem.. right?

 

[IrishCanadian25]

Do me one favor. Just name me ONE title match, that was on a high profile level, that Shawn Michaels HAS WON that didn't have some type of controversy attached to it. Just one. If Shawn is so much greater on the Main Event stage then surely you could name several, so one wouldn't be a problem.. right?

For the record, I actually voted for Benoit, and I credit JMT with convincing me to do so in a prior post. But I read this and thought I'd jump in just to make sure credit is given where it is due.

I'll assume you disqualify the Ironman Match because you think of the overtime as "controversy." Despite the fact that Hart's kayfabe assertion that he didn't prepare for a one hour match PLUS overtime is inherently flawed, since I don't see how you'd prepare differently for a 62 minute match as you would a 60-minute match.

1. SummerSlam 1995 - vs Razor Ramon: This was the Wrestlemania 10 rematch, another ladder match that saw IC Champ Shawn Michaels this time victorious over Razor Ramon in a 25-minute ladder match. The neat part of this match, as opposed to the WMX match, was that the ladder could not be used as a weapon. Shawn was the more creative and more prepared of the two men, and won the match, retaining the IC Title. A ladder match at SummerSlam is pretty significant, especially when you consider that the Michaels / Ramon match had to buoy the "main event" of Diesel vs Mabel.

I will also assume that since winning the Royal Rumble, despite being a massive accomplishment, isn't a "title match" and thus you wouldn't count it. So consider this a footnote - Michaels won back to back Rumbles, '95 and '96.

Do you consider the use of weapons in no holds barred matches to be "controversial," Will? Because if that is allowed...

2. In Your House 7 - Good Friends, Better Enemies: Michaels, not known for being a brawler, defeated Diesel, who was in fact known for being a brawler, in a no holds barred Main Event. That win enabled Shawn to retain the WWF Title.

3. King of the Ring 1996 - vs British Bulldog: There was special guest referee Mr. Perfect, and the only interference was Owen Hart's on Bulldog's behalf. Shawn won the match with the Super Kick. Bulldog was billed as a serious contender to BOTH Michaels and Hart during the mid-90's, and deservedly so.

Also, though not a title match, you cannot throw out the fact that Shawn put on a classic match against the Undertaker in the first ever Hell in a Cell match, which Michaels won. Yes, Kane debuted, but you cannot just throw out the brutality nor the importance of that match.

Are we stopping at 1998, or can we keep going? Because I can bring up the Elimination Chamber win over HHH if you'd like...

 

[D-Man]

Since IC25 has pointed out all of Will's flaws in his condescending word-fort of BS banter, I'll add to my argument for HBK without addressing any of those points. I mean, heaven forbid that I make another valid point that Will and X don't agree with... After all, to disagree with them makes you a total moron, right? Lulz..

In my personal opinion, I look at the resume of a person's career to try and justify if they would be better in a kayfabe match, as well as look at the matchup between the two opponents. While X brought the Super J Cup to my attention (which I was unaware of, shame on me), I still see HBK had more accomplishments than Chris Benoit. I also don't look at a guy who's known as a "technical wrestler" and think that automatically qualifies them as being better than everyone else because they execute a better suplex or a harder chop. However, Benoit isn't the only "technical" guy in this match, and I find it laughable that everyone seems to disregard HBK's in-ring skills just because he's facing the "almighty overrated" Chris Benoit.

HBK is a legend for many reasons... he is the ultimate in-ring performer, he was known to defeat men of all shapes and sizes during all the eras in which he wrestled, and he's an icon to his peers. Now, even before Benoit decided to murder his family, people spoke of him as being a workhorse and a great technical wrestler (which I will never deny), but he was never held in the high regards that HBK has been held. So for all of you to sit in your chair and think that I'm "stupid" for believing that HBK would have an edge in this match, maybe you should see how many wrestlers this man has influenced over the years. Take a look at how he's viewed by his peers. We, as the smarks, think we all kno who's better than who. But the wrestlers themselves consistently choose HBK as one of their top wrestlers of all time for a reason... he's one of the best. I'll have my opinions and you could keep yours, but I'll never sit here and tell you that you're stupid for choosing Chris Benoit. I'll just say you're wrong and leave it at that.

I don't care how hard this man chops people's chests or how fast his snap-suplex is... Chris Benoit, while in the WWE and facing WWE wrestlers, was said to choke in main event situations. And since he is facing a WWE wrestler, this match falls into that category. You can compare their opponents' age brackets and their personal stats all you want... when the main event came around, HBK delivered more than Benoit did. Like I stated earlier, the WWE even wrote a storyline about it during his rise to the World Heavyweight Championship. However, one storyline stays the same: HBK has been best in clutch situations. This is the gold medal match of this tourney... I think it qualifies.

 

[Little Jerry Lawler]

Since IC25 has pointed out all of Will's flaws in his condescending word-fort of BS banter, I'll add to my argument for HBK without addressing any of those points. I mean, heaven forbid that I make another valid point that Will and X don't agree with... After all, to disagree with them makes you a total moron, right? Lulz..

In my personal opinion, I look at the resume of a person's career to try and justify if they would be better in a kayfabe match, as well as look at the matchup between the two opponents. While X brought the Super J Cup to my attention (which I was unaware of, shame on me), I still see HBK had more accomplishments than Chris Benoit. I also don't look at a guy who's known as a "technical wrestler" and think that automatically qualifies them as being better than everyone else because they execute a better suplex or a harder chop. However, Benoit isn't the only "technical" guy in this match, and I find it laughable that everyone seems to disregard HBK's in-ring skills just because he's facing the "almighty overrated" Chris Benoit.

HBK is a legend for many reasons... he is the ultimate in-ring performer, he was known to defeat men of all shapes and sizes during all the eras in which he wrestled, and he's an icon to his peers. Now, even before Benoit decided to murder his family, people spoke of him as being a workhorse and a great technical wrestler (which I will never deny), but he was never held in the high regards that HBK has been held. So for all of you to sit in your chair and think that I'm "stupid" for believing that HBK would have an edge in this match, maybe you should see how many wrestlers this man has influenced over the years. Take a look at how he's viewed by his peers. We, as the smarks, think we all kno who's better than who. But the wrestlers themselves consistently choose HBK as one of their top wrestlers of all time for a reason... he's one of the best. I'll have my opinions and you could keep yours, but I'll never sit here and tell you that you're stupid for choosing Chris Benoit. I'll just say you're wrong and leave it at that.

I don't care how hard this man chops people's chests or how fast his snap-suplex is... Chris Benoit, while in the WWE and facing WWE wrestlers, was said to choke in main event situations. And since he is facing a WWE wrestler, this match falls into that category. You can compare their opponents' age brackets and their personal stats all you want... when the main event came around, HBK delivered more than Benoit did. Like I stated earlier, the WWE even wrote a storyline about it during his rise to the World Heavyweight Championship. However, one storyline stays the same: HBK has been best in clutch situations. This is the gold medal match of this tourney... I think it qualifies.

Wrestlemania 20 was a main event situation and Benoit won did he not? The next PPV was a main event situation and didn't Benoit do the same thing? I have no idea where you are getting this choking thing because in most of the main event situations Benoit has been in, he has won.

Michaels has lost plenty of big match situations. Undertaker at WM 25, Cena at WM 23, Angle WM 21, and the list goes on. Benoit has won plenty of tournaments especially overseas in his prime.

And before your repeat that Michaels wasn't in his prime when Benoit beat him, tough shit. I hear up and down these forums about the great matches HBK has claimed to have after 2002 which by you was not his prime. Benoit in his prime was just as good as anybody and maybe he didn't have the fanfare HBK had but he was still a damn good wrestler and will win this match.

 

[D-Man]

Michaels has lost plenty of big match situations. Undertaker at WM 25, Cena at WM 23, Angle WM 21, and the list goes on. Benoit has won plenty of tournaments especially overseas in his prime.

The bullshit is how you're all treating Benoit like he was an undefeated winning machine or something. The guy spent years and years winning and losing midcard titles in the WWE before being elevated to main event status for the grand total of under one year.

Michaels lost his share of matches but they were in the main event. And his experience in the main event is what makes him a level above Benoit.

As far as records are concerned, a (hypothetical) 25-11 record > 4-0 record when it comes to main event matches. Experience in this level of matches is just as important as wins.

 

[X]

The bullshit is how you're all treating Benoit like he was an undefeated winning machine or something. The guy spent years and years winning and losing midcard titles in the WWE before being elevated to main event status for the grand total of under one year.

Michaels lost his share of matches but they were in the main event. And his experience in the main event is what makes him a level above Benoit.

As far as records are concerned, a (hypothetical) 25-11 record > 4-0 record when it comes to main event matches. Experience in this level of matches is just as important as wins.

You are vastly overrating Shawn Michaels here D-Man while vastly underrating Chris Benoit. The man spent years and years defeating much more skilled wrestlers than Shawn Michaels, and that was before he even decied to wrestle exclusively in the United States. The man is one of the most accomplished gaijins to ever compete in the country of Japan, where he spent years defeating legend after legend, several of whom I'd consider better wrestlers than Shawn Michaels.

Then he spent years "in the midcard", yes. Who was he defeating in that midcard though? The likes of Kurt Angle, Chris Jericho, Dean Malenko, Eddie Guerrero, Booker T...yeah, that's a pretty god damn impressive midcard, and a much better list of opponents than those that HBK spent fighting in his prime years. Who were HBK's biggest opponents in the mid 90s? Bret Hart, Sid Vicious, Kevin Nash, Scott Hall, and Undertaker. Apart from 'Taker and Hart, that isn't a very impressive list.

Also, Benoit spent far more than just "one year" in the main event. The guy was main eventing a WWF PPV within his first four months in the company, or have you forgotten his match against The Rock at Fully Loaded 2000, one that he technically won? He main evented several PPVs before even becoming a World Champion in the WWE, constantly challenging the likes of Kurt Angle and Chris Jericho. And let's not forget his short period on top of WCW as well, where he was a World Champion as well.

Benoit is better than HBK in the ring, has better conditioning, more experience, and better endurance. He's the right choice to defeat an absolutely wiped-out and exhausted HBK.

 

[Little Jerry Lawler]

The bullshit is how you're all treating Benoit like he was an undefeated winning machine or something. The guy spent years and years winning and losing midcard titles in the WWE before being elevated to main event status for the grand total of under one year.

Michaels lost his share of matches but they were in the main event. And his experience in the main event is what makes him a level above Benoit.

As far as records are concerned, a (hypothetical) 25-11 record > 4-0 record when it comes to main event matches. Experience in this level of matches is just as important as wins.

Experience is important but not as important as you think. When Undertaker faced Hulk Hogan in 1991, who had more experience? It was Hogan and he lost. Hell, what happened when Sheamus faced John Cena who has had just as many main event matches as HBK had? He lost. Experience in big matches is not the end all be all in determining who would win. Benoit won most of the big matches he was in and HBK has lost them. Benoit has held his own against Michaels in the past and I don't see why it would be any different.

 

[D-Man]

Experience is important but not as important as you think. When Undertaker faced Hulk Hogan in 1991, who had more experience? It was Hogan and he lost. Hell, what happened when Sheamus faced John Cena who has had just as many main event matches as HBK had? He lost. Experience in big matches is not the end all be all in determining who would win. Benoit won most of the big matches he was in and HBK has lost them. Benoit has held his own against Michaels in the past and I don't see why it would be any different.

You're going to compare Chris Benoit with an undead, invincible gimmick from 1991?!? Are you serious?? This is kayfabe, not cartoon. I say Superman will beat Hulk Hogan, too.

And Sheamus vs. John Cena was a rare occurence that I can easily turn around on you. If Benoit is so "dominant" over HBK, then I say the same things happens with HBK winning this match. Everyone gets lucky sometimes, and other times, interference happens (see below).

This match is not about LUCK. It will be a close match between the two, but I see HBK's experience in main event, high-profile matches as playing a huge factor here.


Michaels faced Benoit in a match on Raw for the WHC. It doesn't look so one-sided to me. That says enough.

(If this isn't the match on Raw where Evolution interferes at the end, then disregard it. This is tough when my job blocks all YouTube videos )

 

[ckoneagain]

whilst opinion is clearly split on this, i think it comes down to one thing...who would you rather not face if you were forced to fight and im sorry i don't care who your are, but kayfabe, it's going to be Benoit that scares the crap outta me. The man was vicious, brutal and seemed to get even angrier when he was getting hurt in any way. Whilst Shawn would clearly get at least 1 fall with sweet chin music, there is no way that Benoit wouldn't damage him every time they came into contact, especially with the inevitable exposure to the cross-face. In the end it'll be Shawn putting all his energy into getting to his feet with maybe the odd desperate sweet chin music, but it'll be Benoit that leaves under his own power with a dominating win in this one

 

[TheOneBigWill]

For the record, I actually voted for Benoit, and I credit JMT with convincing me to do so in a prior post. But I read this and thought I'd jump in just to make sure credit is given where it is due.

Finally, a challenge. Also, its nice to see D-Man has hacked into Irish's account.

Don't worry, if someone attacked my Wife - I'd come to her aid too. Its nice to see you sticking up for your lover, IC.

I'll assume you disqualify the Ironman Match because you think of the overtime as "controversy." Despite the fact that Hart's kayfabe assertion that he didn't prepare for a one hour match PLUS overtime is inherently flawed, since I don't see how you'd prepare differently for a 62 minute match as you would a 60-minute match.

Well, considering the entire build-up to this contest was a 60-minute Iron Man match. Not a 60(plus) minute Iron Man match, I'd say you have to include the controversy of them re-starting the match when Bret Hart clearly had Shawn Michaels moments away from tapping out/submitting.

If the match would've just continued beyond the end of the 60 minutes, like it should have if they ever had any intention on continuing.. Shawn Michaels would have and should have lost to the Sharpshooter.

On this note, since you brought up the Iron Man match and I figured someone would try replying with this as a "clean" victory.. it took HBK over 1 hour to defeat Bret Hart. Benoit has fought Hart, and won, in less time. (granted, for argument sake he's also lost just as many times as HBK has, to Hart as well.)

1. SummerSlam 1995 - vs Razor Ramon: This was the Wrestlemania 10 rematch, another ladder match that saw IC Champ Shawn Michaels this time victorious over Razor Ramon in a 25-minute ladder match. The neat part of this match, as opposed to the WMX match, was that the ladder could not be used as a weapon. Shawn was the more creative and more prepared of the two men, and won the match, retaining the IC Title. A ladder match at SummerSlam is pretty significant, especially when you consider that the Michaels / Ramon match had to buoy the "main event" of Diesel vs Mabel.

Okay, before I completely dismiss this because in D-Man's own words.. the Shawn Michaels he was referring to was the 1996-1998 version. Not the midcard version. So, if you somehow can make me believe this match re-happened in the timeline your boyfriend set up then sure, I'll count it.

Anyways, with that being said what the shit were you smoking? "The neat part of this match, as opposed to the WMX match, was the ladder could not be used as a weapon." (yeah, you actually said that)

So, I'm assuming you missed 40-60% of this match, where Razor kept using the ladder to injure Shawn's knee. Or where Shawn used the ladder to injure Razor's back/stomach.

Also, I love how you think the gimmick match had to fight so hard to compete against two guys who couldn't have been even more uncompatable with each other. No one took Mabel as a credible contender to the Heavyweight title, and that match lasted all of 10 minutes. Benoit's victory over Orlando Jordan in 24 seconds at Summerslam could have competed and out-shined that shit-fest. (of course, for purpose sake this last paragraph was in relation to you claiming the ladder match had to try and out-do the Main Event of that year's Summerslam.)

I will also assume that since winning the Royal Rumble, despite being a massive accomplishment, isn't a "title match" and thus you wouldn't count it. So consider this a footnote - Michaels won back to back Rumbles, '95 and '96.

Sure, let's toss this in. Again, its not exactly falling within the realm of what D-Man himself set-up as the correct timeline.. but I'm game to prove why its pointless.

Shawn Michaels won the 1995 Rumble entering at #1. An impressive victory, one I would greatly consider amazing. But that wasn't the year we were discussing, so unless we will go on to talk of Shawn's failure at WMXI then we'll jump to the 1996 Rumble..

At which point, HBK entered #19 and did a massive overhaul of the ring. Eliminating Vader and Yokozuna at the same time. (Granted, they had one another half way over and momentum carried them while Shawn got credit, but sure, we'll let Shawn shine here) Continuing onward.. in the final moments of the Rumble, it was HBK Superkicking his best friend in the face, technically from behind (Diesel had only a mere second to turn around only to see a foot planted upside his head) to gain the elimination and victory.

On the flip side of this; Chris Benoit started at #1 in 2004.. and in the final moments of his Royal Rumble, he was one-on-one against the massive Big Show. An individual that typically takes a handful or more of Superstars to eliminate.. yet Benoit did it by himself, straight forward, with a headlock/choke.

Whats this tell you? To me, it says this..

Shawn Michaels wasn't viewed as credible enough to the company to allow him the opportunity to go one-on-one with anyone before giving him the final elimination. He had to do it suddenly, from behind. Whereas Chris Benoit fought all the way from the #1 spot (for almost double the amount of time HBK did in 1995, mind you) and won by eliminating not just the final individual in a one-on-one situation.. but an individual much larger, stronger, and overall arguably better than Diesel was in the Big Show.

So, how is HBK's Rumble victory to be viewed as better than Benoit's? I mean, thats all we can discuss here since again D-Man didn't define the timeline to allow this as what he was jabbering about in his "Championship timetable."

2. In Your House 7 - Good Friends, Better Enemies: Michaels, not known for being a brawler, defeated Diesel, who was in fact known for being a brawler, in a no holds barred Main Event. That win enabled Shawn to retain the WWF Title.

Kevin Nash was leaving the Company. In the Main Event of Wrestlemania XI, Diesel destroyed Shawn Michaels. A match that had rules, I might add - just like the Iron Man match, here.

In the Midcard Pay per view that was considered In Your House, Shawn Michaels used a variety of weapons to dispatch a man who was leaving the Company.

Yes, what a credible victory that was. I'm sure Shawn had more than a handful of House Show victories under his belt as well. Would you like to use those as well???

3. King of the Ring 1996 - vs British Bulldog: There was special guest referee Mr. Perfect, and the only interference was Owen Hart's on Bulldog's behalf. Shawn won the match with the Super Kick. Bulldog was billed as a serious contender to BOTH Michaels and Hart during the mid-90's, and deservedly so.

The King of the Ring match ended as cleanly as anything Shawn Michaels had done that Year, I'll give you that. But the controversy in relation to this is that it took Shawn Michaels two months before he could properly prove he could defeat the mid-card level, Main Event raised, British Bulldog.

A month prior to this, the Bulldog had pinned Shawn's shoulders to the mat, cleanly in the ring. Yet he wasn't awarded the Heavyweight title - nor was the title held up. The match was viewed as a double pinfall, yet the Champion retained. (however, at Wrestlemania when the match went to a draw, they allowed the contest to continue even though the challenger likely would have been moments away from repeating his Survivor Series 1992 finale.)

Also, though not a title match, you cannot throw out the fact that Shawn put on a classic match against the Undertaker in the first ever Hell in a Cell match, which Michaels won. Yes, Kane debuted, but you cannot just throw out the brutality nor the importance of that match.

Well, when you can explain to me when, where and how interference is going to happen here and help Shawn Michaels gain a victory he otherwise would've never had. I'll give you the HBK nod. Until then, I find that all you're doing here is burying HBK worse, in technically claiming that the only way he can win matches viewed in a Main stream importance is by the outside interference of others.

For purpose sake, because I'm on a roll at this point.. Shawn Michaels never even once.. not ONCE.. had the Undertaker "in the red" throughout this match. He hit Sweet Chin Music, and the Undertaker sat up in a heartbeat.

Shawn Michaels was beaten, bloodied and broken by the time this contest was over. The Tombstone laid HBK out, and it was all over but the three count - which couldn't happen, because Kane decided to screw with his brother's head.

Are we stopping at 1998, or can we keep going? Because I can bring up the Elimination Chamber win over HHH if you'd like...

Another situation that falls just short of your lover's timeline that he claimed this version of HBK would be fighting.

However, if you consider the version of Shawn Michaels competing in this contest the same Shawn Michaels that won the title in 2002.. then surely you'd allow me to run down all the numerous losses he's gained over that same time, to names vastly less than superior to Chris Benoit.

Are we done here? Have I proven my point, or do I need to continue in showing you both how wrong I believe you are? Because if I need to continue, you're gonna have to do much better than this.

 

[IrishCanadian25]

Will, I want to put this as gently as I possibly can.

That was one of your worst posts. Ever.

I mean, it was funny. The whole D-Man / IC25 defending your wife thing was very cute. Would have been funnier had it been even remotely original, but hey I chuckled nonetheless.

Don't worry, if someone attacked my Wife - I'd come to her aid too. Its nice to see you sticking up for your lover, IC.

Awesome man! Glad to see you're confident in the fact that you'd be able to pull yourself away from porn and international internet teenagers to run to her aid. Seems like a lovely girl, BTW.

Well, considering the entire build-up to this contest was a 60-minute Iron Man match. Not a 60(plus) minute Iron Man match, I'd say you have to include the controversy of them re-starting the match when Bret Hart clearly had Shawn Michaels moments away from tapping out/submitting.

The build-up to the day I lost my virginity was a 60-minute Iron Man match. The actual even lasted 18 seconds. Didn't change my mindset going in.

I will accept the "controversy" idea ONLY because the bell broke the Sharpshooter and gave Shawn a clean break he didn't deserve.

Okay, before I completely dismiss this because in D-Man's own words.. the Shawn Michaels he was referring to was the 1996-1998 version. Not the midcard version. So, if you somehow can make me believe this match re-happened in the timeline your boyfriend set up then sure, I'll count it.

I was only referring to your challenge. I had not seen a time frame in there.

So, I'm assuming you missed 40-60% of this match, where Razor kept using the ladder to injure Shawn's knee. Or where Shawn used the ladder to injure Razor's back/stomach.

I'll re-watch it, but I do recall the re-match having the no-weapon stip. I've been wrong before. Even still, whether they could use the ladder or not, they both had an even playing field and Michaels won.

Shawn Michaels won the 1995 Rumble entering at #1. An impressive victory, one I would greatly consider amazing. But that wasn't the year we were discussing, so unless we will go on to talk of Shawn's failure at WMXI then we'll jump to the 1996 Rumble..

Actually, I consider Shawn's Rumble win to be the worst in the history of the event, because the time periods were 1-minute between entries. I thought it was shit.

At which point, HBK entered #19 and did a massive overhaul of the ring. Eliminating Vader and Yokozuna at the same time. (Granted, they had one another half way over and momentum carried them while Shawn got credit, but sure, we'll let Shawn shine here) Continuing onward.. in the final moments of the Rumble, it was HBK Superkicking his best friend in the face, technically from behind (Diesel had only a mere second to turn around only to see a foot planted upside his head) to gain the elimination and victory.

Ah yes, this must have been the Rumble that WAS NOT every man for himself? You think the fact that Michaels had enough killer instint to eliminate Diesel somehow detracts from his accomplishment? I hope you're kidding.

On the flip side of this; Chris Benoit started at #1 in 2004.. and in the final moments of his Royal Rumble, he was one-on-one against the massive Big Show. An individual that typically takes a handful or more of Superstars to eliminate.. yet Benoit did it by himself, straight forward, with a headlock/choke.

Absolutely. Benoit's win was terrific. I never doubted that.

Shawn Michaels wasn't viewed as credible enough to the company to allow him the opportunity to go one-on-one with anyone before giving him the final elimination. He had to do it suddenly, from behind. Whereas Chris Benoit fought all the way from the #1 spot (for almost double the amount of time HBK did in 1995, mind you) and won by eliminating not just the final individual in a one-on-one situation.. but an individual much larger, stronger, and overall arguably better than Diesel was in the Big Show.

OK, folks, the bullshit you see here is Will trying to "prove" his point using something I have affectionately called "smoke and mirrors." See how Will decides to take the smarky approach with Shawn - "wasn't viewed as credible enough" - but then inexplicably switches to kayfabe with Benoit - "fought all the way from #1..." Such a crock of shit. If you want to argue kayfabe, do it. If you want to argue smarky, do it. But be flipping consistent. You couldn't possibly try to use this double standard again, could you?

Kevin Nash was leaving the Company. In the Main Event of Wrestlemania XI, Diesel destroyed Shawn Michaels. A match that had rules, I might add - just like the Iron Man match, here.

In the Midcard Pay per view that was considered In Your House, Shawn Michaels used a variety of weapons to dispatch a man who was leaving the Company.

Yes, what a credible victory that was. I'm sure Shawn had more than a handful of House Show victories under his belt as well. Would you like to use those as well???

Holy shit, you did. Now, Michaels win over Diesel was simply because "he was leaving the company." So since we're talking Shawn here, you decide to switch back to the smarky revisionist history and backstage crap.

Oh, and yes Michaels used a variety of weapons. The same weapons Diesel had at his disposal.

So, how is HBK's Rumble victory to be viewed as better than Benoit's? I mean, thats all we can discuss here since again D-Man didn't define the timeline to allow this as what he was jabbering about in his "Championship timetable."

When did I say Shawn's win was better than Benoits? I never did. You asked for legit accomplishments. Though Shawn DID win back to back. Benoit didn't.

The King of the Ring match ended as cleanly as anything Shawn Michaels had done that Year, I'll give you that. But the controversy in relation to this is that it took Shawn Michaels two months before he could properly prove he could defeat the mid-card level, Main Event raised, British Bulldog.

WAIT, WAIT, WAIT!

So the fact that Shawn and Davey put on a program that actually lasted a few months is a CONTROVERSY? What, you wanted the feud to start on one Raw and have Shawn dispatch him the next. See how you now switch back to kayfabe?

You're about as consistent as my bowels after Cinco de Mayo, jerky.

For purpose sake, because I'm on a roll at this point..

A roll? You mean the fact that you're said "I'll give you that..." just one or two times fewer than the number of times you've tried to deceive people by switching from kayfabe to smark?

Please. Get down, now, lapdog. You need to go running behind Doc Lewis before you climb back in the ring with me.

 

[TLC]

I've got to go with Benoit here. As people have pointed out his ride to the final have been pretty easy unlike Michaels who barely eeked out victories. Benoit has far more experience in Iron Man matches and is undefeated in them and unlike Michaels, also he did not need over time in his hour long iron man match to get the victory. I believe he is far to vicious and has to much of a versatile wrestler to be beaten my Michaels in this type of match. I could see HBK getting a few pinfalls over Benoit but Benoit would be to much for Shawn and would be losing this match.

 

[TheOneBigWill]

The build-up to the day I lost my virginity was a 60-minute Iron Man match. The actual even lasted 18 seconds. Didn't change my mindset going in.

That may have been, but I'm sure you wouldn't have been none-to-happy, had an alarm of some sort went off RIGHT before you were about to hit orgasm, only to be pushed off and blow for nothing - then only to discover you could go ahead and re-begin after losing all that stamina. The point? IT FUCKS WITH YOUR HEAD. (in your case, literally)

I was only referring to your challenge. I had not seen a time frame in there.

Just to clarify, this was the initial post by D-Man that started the timeline situation..

HBK had an incredible win/loss record during his first main event run, which lasted for almost 2 years. His only loss from his championship run after WM12 was against Sycho Sid, and he gained the championship back 2 months later. Then it was vacated due to injury (or controversy... whatever) and he regained it at the Monteal Screwjob and held it until Wrestlemania against Steve Austin.

This tramples over Chris Benoit's lackluster reign. I don't care how tough he portrays himself, HBK is more experienced and has a better track record as a top spot superstar.

Now, if you can't spot the BS in that entire paragraph then you've been partners in life WAY too long to accept one another could ever be wrong.

First; HBK's incredible win/loss record was all of 4-1-2. (Mania XII-Survivor Series 96, PPV's only) To my knowledge, he never defended the Championship on Raw's, either. (this is probably incorrect though - as I seem to recall a title match against Goldust, and Jerry Lawler)

In retrospect, Benoit's win/loss record was all of 4-1. (Mania XX-Summerslam 04) He had better overall victories against higher named, more accomplished, individuals as well. (Triple H - three times, Shawn Michaels - twice, or three times including Raw, & Kane - twice or more including Raw & other Raw matches, since the title was actually defended more often in 2004 than it ever was in 1996.)

So, for D-Man to say Shawn Michaels had a better Championship reign than Benoit is pure crap.

So, this is also why it helps to know what you're replying to.. instead of just jumping to someone else's aid.

I'll re-watch it, but I do recall the re-match having the no-weapon stip. I've been wrong before. Even still, whether they could use the ladder or not, they both had an even playing field and Michaels won.

Razor won the first. What was the point again?

Seriously, I don't see the point in Michaels winning or losing. I may have lost track of why this was of any importance, especially since Benoit has actually won more Ladder matches than Shawn Michaels and not lost half as many.

 

[HBK-aholic]

You are ALL focusing WAY too much on the 'Benoit loses big match situations' thing. That MAYBE should have been a passing comment, but definately doesn't warrant the debate it's caused. Guess what? Benoit has lost big match situations. So has Shawn. You can argue numbers, and whose won more as much as you like, it's not as important as it's being made out to be and takes awy from the bigger picture here - Shawn is the better wrestler. He has stamina, he has power, he has speed. So does Benoit, but not to the extent Shawn does.

I'm not going to attempt to belittle anyones opinion here, Benoit was fantastic. But Shawn is better and there isn't an argument that's convinced me otherwise. The fact people pointed to the Shawn/Benoit singles match just seemed weaker when anyone who bothered to re-watch the match saw that Shawn was about to win, and would have had it not been for an interference by Triple H. Seeings as Triple H can't interfere here, Benoit wouldn't get the win.

I've argued why Shawn should win above, so I won't bother adding more. But seriously, calm it with the 'win/loss' thing, it means so little here, and all you're doing is throwing matches at each other.

 

[TheOneBigWill]

Shawn is the better wrestler.

My GAWD I have waited for you in this thread. This could be good.

He has stamina

And yet Chris Benoit has done everything Shawn has, as far as Iron Man's and Royal Rumble's.. only to a better extent. Strange.

He's lasted longer in his 2004 Rumble victory, than Shawn has lasted in the two he won - combined.

he has power

Benoit choked the Big Show out of the ring to win his Rumble match. Let me rephrase this.. Benoit.. choked the shit.. out of.. a 500+ lbs monster.

When did Shawn do anything remotely close to this again, that shows Shawn can match Benoit's power and strength?

he has speed

I'll give you this one. Shawn will need to be able to run faster than Benoit, because Benoit will be chasing his ass.

So does Benoit, but not to the extent Shawn does.

Uhm.. okay, kinda. But only if you're about to follow that up with "Benoit has more."

I'm not going to attempt to belittle anyones opinion here, Benoit was fantastic.

Glad you agree.

But Shawn is better and there isn't an argument that's convinced me otherwise.

Thats because you refuse to accept Shawn Michaels could ever lose. You refuse to accept Shawn Michaels is going bald. And you refuse to accept that Shawn Michaels is NOT your damn Husband.

You might be a Rebecca, but you aren't his Rebecca. Oh yeah, I went there.

I've argued why Shawn should win above, so I won't bother adding more.

You need to argue more. Truth is, you know I love Shawn Michaels and Chris Benoit isn't technically even in my Top 5 list of favorites. But Shawn is out-matched here.

When you look at the road to how both men got here, Shawn is winded, drained and on "E". Benoit is still healthy, full of energy, and ready to win some Gold.

Shawn has stamina and the ability to find extra wind, and an uncanny ability to continue when others can't. But when you consider Benoit can do all of those same things on similar levels, then you add in the fact that Benoit's road to this match wasn't nearly as hard as Shawn's.. even you can't be this blind, can you?

 

[HBK-aholic]

My GAWD I have waited for you in this thread. This could be good.

Funny, I posted in this thread days ago, and even debated a point you made.

And yet Chris Benoit has done everything Shawn has, as far as Iron Man's and Royal Rumble's.. only to a better extent. Strange.

If you call being pinned 6 times in your 2 Iron Man matches better, as opposed to Shawn's 2, then sure, I agree.

He's lasted longer in his 2004 Rumble victory, than Shawn has lasted in the two he won - combined.

Is that because Shawn couldn't? You're a big enough fan of Shawn to know that isn't the case.

Benoit choked the Big Show out of the ring to win his Rumble match. Let me rephrase this.. Benoit.. choked the shit.. out of.. a 500+ lbs monster.

When did Shawn do anything remotely close to this again, that shows Shawn can match Benoit's power and strength?

Big Show isn't exactly the greatest of wrestlers now, is he? Shawn's wrestled his fair share of big guys as well. He's also had better matches with pretty much everyone compared to Benoit. Benoit needs help to defeat Shawn.

I'll give you this one. Shawn will need to be able to run faster than Benoit, because Benoit will be chasing his ass.

And it won't be the other way around, why?

Thats because you refuse to accept Shawn Michaels could ever lose.

Of course I can. He's lost matches. He shouldn't lose this one.

You refuse to accept Shawn Michaels is going bald. And you refuse to accept that Shawn Michaels is NOT your damn Husband.

You might be a Rebecca, but you aren't his Rebecca. Oh yeah, I went there.

I deleted what I wrote here. Hmm...

You need to argue more. Truth is, you know I love Shawn Michaels and Chris Benoit isn't technically even in my Top 5 list of favorites. But Shawn is out-matched here.

How? I'm really not understanding what Benoit has done that Shawn hasn't? That Shawn can't? I'm really not understanding how people can say that, when Benoit needed HELP to stop himself from losing to Shawn before. I've put that point to you twice now, after you brought the match up, but there's no argument against it.

When you look at the road to how both men got here, Shawn is winded, drained and on "E". Benoit is still healthy, full of energy, and ready to win some Gold.

Shawn has stamina and the ability to find extra wind, and an uncanny ability to continue when others can't. But when you consider Benoit can do all of those same things on similar levels, then you add in the fact that Benoit's road to this match wasn't nearly as hard as Shawn's.. even you can't be this blind, can you?

Exactly. And you're not taking that into account. If Benoit was oh so similar to Shawn he'd have been just as big as him. In practice, he isn't even close to being considered an amazing wrestler by most.

 

[TheOneBigWill]

Funny, I posted in this thread days ago, and even debated a point you made.

I will go search for them. Likely won't reply to them, unless I see something of note that isn't being covered here - or something that hasn't been covered, yet, though.

If you call being pinned 8 times in your 2 Iron Man matches better, as opposed to Shawn's 2, then sure, I agree.

No, I consider the fact that Benoit - regardless of how many times he's been defeated IN his Iron Man matches, has still managed to win both without controversy.

Shawn tied in one, and won the other after a controversial ending stopped the "hour" long match, and restarted a "sudden death" situation.

The way I see it, Shawn needs Earl Hebner in his pocket, Vince with a ring bell, and the time keeper to hope he can speed up the hour when the Crossface gets locked on.

Big Show isn't exactly the greatest of wrestlers now, is he? Shawn's wrestled his fair share of big guys as well. He's also had better matches with pretty much everyone compared to Benoit. Benoit needs help to defeat Shawn.

The situation in question wasn't whether or not Big Show was great. It was over who (HBK or Benoit) was stronger. I answered in giving you an example of Benoit's strength and power. I asked you to give me a rebuttal of how HBK has equalled that. You have not.

To my knowledge, HBK isn't stronger. He isn't bigger in size, either. Now, does this give Benoit an advantage? Yes. But is it one thats so big that it makes a difference? No.

As you've pointed out Shawn has made a career out of defeating bigger guys. But Benoit isn't just "bigger", he's more technical as well. Shawn struggles against technically athlete's. (Angle, Hart)

How? I'm really not understanding what Benoit has done that Shawn hasn't? That Shawn can't? I'm really not understanding how people can say that, when Benoit needed HELP to stop himself from losing to Shawn before. I've put that point to you twice now, after you brought the match up, but there's no argument against it.

But I've noticed people HAVE brought forth arguments that prove how Shawn may not have won. People kick out of Sweet Chin Music almost all the time now. Even back in the day, it didn't always put away opponents.

And lets for purpose sake say he hits it, and it earns him a pinfall. Thats 1 pinfall. Where does he go from there? Did you ever think maybe the reason he didn't earn but 1 "win" over Hart in an hour-plus, was because he simply didn't have the overall moveset to put someone away more than once???

Benoit has several moves that will end HBK. And even if you add in the moves HBK has used to get victories, in theory and logic, Benoit has more.. which means = Benoit wins.

Superkick, Modified Figure-4, McMahon/Sharpshooter/Threatening Time Keepers. Thats all Shawn has.

Crossface, Diving Headbutt, Suplexes, Sharpshooter. Benoit has other ways as well, but those are his main weapons.

Exactly. And you're not taking that into account. If Benoit was oh so similar to Shawn he'd have been just as big as him. In practice, he isn't even close to being considered an amazing wrestler by most.

Uhm. No. Chris Benoit is and will forever be more "technical" than Shawn Michaels could ever dream of being. However, Shawn will be a bigger name - because the one thing HBK has that Benoit never did (and for obvious reasons never will) that helped him become a star.. was charisma, and character.

Personality is a wonderful thing.. but its not going to do shit when you're being stretched by the Crossface, except for buy you sympathy and moral support by the fans after he loses.

 

[HBK-aholic]

I will go search for them. Likely won't reply to them, unless I see something of note that isn't being covered here - or something that hasn't been covered, yet, though.

It was simply you bringing up that Benoit had defeated Shawn, and me showing that it was Triple H's interference that won it, not Benoit's skill.

No, I consider the fact that Benoit - regardless of how many times he's been defeated IN his Iron Man matches, has still managed to win both without controversy.

Shawn tied in one, and won the other after a controversial ending stopped the "hour" long match, and restarted a "sudden death" situation.

I saw you trying to argue how this was controversial earlier, I don't see it myself. If Hart couldn't keep the pace for an extra 2 minutes, and Shawn capitalises, not sure how that reflects badly on Shawn.

The way I see it, Shawn needs Earl Hebner in his pocket, Vince with a ring bell, and the time keeper to hope he can speed up the hour when the Crossface gets locked on.

Sure. It's not like Shawn has ever won a match without that.

The situation in question wasn't whether or not Big Show was great. It was over who (HBK or Benoit) was stronger. I answered in giving you an example of Benoit's strength and power. I asked you to give me a rebuttal of how HBK has equalled that. You have not.

But it's kind of the point. For a large guy, he isn't a great wrestler. Which is why it isn't AS impressive as you're making it out to be. It's impressive, sure, but just don't get carried away with it.

As you've pointed out Shawn has made a career out of defeating bigger guys. But Benoit isn't just "bigger", he's more technical as well. Shawn struggles against technically athlete's. (Angle, Hart)

Um, he's defeated both those guys, so I have NO idea what you're saying here.

He also didn't allow Hart, a technical wrestler, to get a pinfall over him in their Iron Man match. So, again, not exactly a great point.

But I've noticed people HAVE brought forth arguments that prove how Shawn may not have won. People kick out of Sweet Chin Music almost all the time now. Even back in the day, it didn't always put away opponents.

What does? People don't ALWAYS tap out to the Crossface. Re-watch the match. Shawn was SET FOR THE WIN there, it's plainly obvious, and you'd agree if it didn't go against what you're arguing now.

And lets for purpose sake say he hits it, and it earns him a pinfall. Thats 1 pinfall. Where does he go from there? Did you ever think maybe the reason he didn't earn but 1 "win" over Hart in an hour-plus, was because he simply didn't have the overall moveset to put someone away more than once???

Statistically, if Benoit gets a pinfall over Shawn, Shawn will get 3 over him. Benoit: Pinned 6 times in 90 minutes. Shawn: Pinned 2 times in 90 minutes. I realise this is a 60 minute match instead, but it we look at THOSE figures, with Shawn's opponent a wrestler who is arguably better than Benoit, then Benoit gets pinned 3 times, Shawn gets pinned 0.

Benoit has several moves that will end HBK. And even if you add in the moves HBK has used to get victories, in theory and logic, Benoit has more.. which means = Benoit wins.

Superkick, Modified Figure-4, McMahon/Sharpshooter/Threatening Time Keepers. Thats all Shawn has.

Crossface, Diving Headbutt, Suplexes, Sharpshooter. Benoit has other ways as well, but those are his main weapons.

If it comes down to it BOTH have extremely diverse movesets and styles as is shown from the sheer amount of matches Shawn can participate well in. This point doesn't work overly well against either, seeings as both are great wrestlers.

Uhm. No. Chris Benoit is and will forever be more "technical" than Shawn Michaels could ever dream of being. However, Shawn will be a bigger name - because the one thing HBK has that Benoit never did (and for obvious reasons never will) that helped him become a star.. was charisma, and character.

Personality is a wonderful thing.. but its not going to do shit when you're being stretched by the Crossface, except for buy you sympathy and moral support by the fans after he loses.

Benoit is a technically amazing wrestler, but does he have the same flare as Shawn? Shawn isn't new to technical wrestling, and he knows his way around the ring in those situations.

 

[Tastycles]

Who knows who the only man to have been in more than one iron man match and to have won them both is? The answer is Benoit. Benoit beat both Triple H, a man that Shawn Michaels has lost a lot of matches to and Kurt Angle, a man that Michaels couldn't beat in an iron man match when given the opportunity. Michaels has never beaten Benoit, but Benoit made him tap out. Benoit has got more in his arsenal, and he is one of the best reversalists in wrestling history, Benoit wins.

 

[Remix]

It was simply you bringing up that Benoit had defeated Shawn, and me showing that it was Triple H's interference that won it, not Benoit's skill.

A win's a won regardless of the cercumstances. Benoit's beaten HBK. HBK hasn't done the same. Advantage Benoit.

I saw you trying to argue how this was controversial earlier, I don't see it myself. If Hart couldn't keep the pace for an extra 2 minutes, and Shawn capitalises, not sure how that reflects badly on Shawn.

I'm going to draw a paralell as to why those two minutes added on arent as trivial as you're making them out to be Becca. My university has the largest indoor gym in the country, and among the things that are contained within it is an olympic sized swimming pool. In fact the team GB swimming team wanted to train there. However they dont. Because the pool is 3 cm (a bit more than an inch) too short. Those little things line two minutes or an inch count.

Sure. It's not like Shawn has ever won a match without that.

and it's not like Benoit hasn't won a match without Triple H's interferance. Deuce.

But it's kind of the point. For a large guy, he isn't a great wrestler. Which is why it isn't AS impressive as you're making it out to be. It's impressive, sure, but just don't get carried away with it.

[YOUTUBE]hqyAcpfP5qg[/YOUTUBE]

If choking out the Big Show isnt that impressive because he isnt great, how about German suplexing Brock Lesnar three times and making him tap out to the crossface? After beating John Cena earlier in the night. Show me something that HBK's done that A) demonstrates that much strength and B) shows that HBK has the ebndurance required to 'beat' (because the ref didnt see Lesnar tap out, so Benoit lost to Lesnar) two younger wrestlers, who were both in good shape and larger (and stronger) than himself. Hell it took HBK an hour to get the pinfall on John Cena. Benoit made him tap and had enough left in the tank to make Lesnar do the same. Advantage Benoit.

What does? People don't ALWAYS tap out to the Crossface. Re-watch the match. Shawn was SET FOR THE WIN there, it's plainly obvious, and you'd agree if it didn't go against what you're arguing now.

You're right Becca. People dont always tap to the crossface. Just like people dont always get pinned after the Superkick. However, it doesn't matter if HBK taps out to it every time. HBK only has to tap out to it as many times as necessaray. Not to mention that Benoit can A) make people tap out to moves other than the Crossface and B) get pinfalls as well as make them tap out. While I'm sure that you can correct me on this (probably many times) But I cant think of that many times HBK has gotten the win in singles competition after a move that isn't a Superkick. However, since contesting this point is arguing hypothetical scenarios in a hypothetical match, we'll call it Deuce.

Statistically, if Benoit gets a pinfall over Shawn, Shawn will get 3 over him. Benoit: Pinned 6 times in 90 minutes. Shawn: Pinned 2 times in 90 minutes. I realise this is a 60 minute match instead, but it we look at THOSE figures, with Shawn's opponent a wrestler who is arguably better than Benoit, then Benoit gets pinned 3 times, Shawn gets pinned 0.

I'm not going to argue this. Because I hate statistics. We'll call it Advantage Shawn though.

If it comes down to it BOTH have extremely diverse movesets and styles as is shown from the sheer amount of matches Shawn can participate well in. This point doesn't work overly well against either, seeings as both are great wrestlers.

agreed. Deuce.

Benoit is a technically amazing wrestler, but does he have the same flare as Shawn? Shawn isn't new to technical wrestling, and he knows his way around the ring in those situations.

Question, what does flair have to do with ability to win an hour long match? Wouldn't wasting energy with flashy moves be a bad thing anyway? Shawn's a great wrestler Becca. However, Benopit takes this for four reasons (listed in order of significance:

1) He's better than HBK
2) He's less tired than HBK at this stage in the competition
3) He's fitter than HBK anyway
4) He's got the homefield advantage.