Giving Russo Credit in WCW '99

[peter_midnight]

I don't come on here all the time, but one thing I never see anyone give Vince Russo credit for in his 1st WCW run was giving us a main event at a PPV of Bret Hart vs Chris Benoit. Why this is never talked about in any of the shoots he's done, I'll never know. At the time, 2 of the things smarks always complained about were how Bret Hart was underused and how Benoit should get a push. So Russo comes in late '99 and the first thing he does is organize a tournament that puts Benoit vs Hart for the title at Mayhem '99 in a babyface match in Canada.

To be fair, he overbooked the match with run-ins, but at least on paper it was the best WCW main event they had in years. Then a month later, he gave us Bret vs Goldberg. Granted that ended badly, but it was something that WCW toyed with and never delivered on until Russo got there. I will always give him credit for those two things. Not because I'm a huge Bret Hart fan, but because I think Russo deserves credit where credit is due. To say he doesn't like wrestling, but puts one of the best workers on the roster as champion and books 2 technical guys in the main event for the title as babyfaces says a lot about him as a fan.

He also booked matches between Jeff Jarrett and Benoit that ended up being very solid matches for the most part. We saw Dean Malenko vs Benoit in a cage match that was awesome (I think it was on Thunder or Nitro). If he held back on the run-ins and the absurd angles, I think things may have turned around. However, my point is that while Russo went nuts in 2000, I'll always give him credit for at least booking matches between guys that could go.

Does anyone else think that Russo deserve a little more credit for his late '99 run as booker/writer?

 

[AnthonyM4]

One thing I liked about what Russo did in 99 was using Madusa who was absent for like two years before he came there. He is a big fan of her's as am I. I think she had a pretty decent match with Chris Benoit in the tournament! I also didn't mind her winning the wcw cruiserweight title(though losing it to Ed Ferrera was almost as bad as Arquette winning the world title). To answer your question though, I think the bad outweighed the good. Flair being buried in the desert, the stupid Hogan deal at Halloween Havoc, Ernest Miller and Sonny Onoo being broken up(which led to Sonny suing the comany after he was let go), Oklahoma, Pinata on a pole(and everything else on a pole), Creative Control(the Harris twins dressed in a suit and tie), belts being treated like garbage(the tv title was thrown there), maybe I will read the death of wcw to give you more examples. Oh and the ratings didn't go that much up after he came.

 

[FromGlasgow]

I think his time in WCW except for Arquette winning the world title wasn't that bad, It wasn't mind blowing or anything but I still enjoyed WCW during this time he done a few good angles and matches I do think its all overshadowed with Arquette winning world title which I think was the worst booking decision in wrestling history and a big step towards the end of WCW so that can't be considered a success I do know it wasn't just him and also Bischoff who was partly in charge during this period though.

 

[Mustang Sally]

I suppose he can be given credit for some of those high-profile matches the OP mentions. Still, given the large number of high-caliber performers WCW had at it's disposal in '99 and the number of events they aired during a single year, Russo was bound to get some of it right.

Still, as several folks pointed out already, things went sour later in Russo's tenure and I would point to his incredible ego and seeming belief in his own infallibility, which included turning himself into an on-air attraction as factors that caused his inevitable failure. The guy needed to be second-in-charge, with a person like Vince McMahon to ride herd over him and keep him in line, imo.

But the purpose of this post was to point out that Russo should be given credit for what he did in his early WCW days.....and I agree.

 

[klunderbunker]

No.

I've been watching the 1999 Nitros under Russo's control lately and the shows are borderline unwatchable. For every good Benoit vs. Hart match, there are probably ten other matches that reek of Russo booking them into the ground and ruining whatever potential was there. The angles and twists and turns and match time being eliminated more often than not were way too much and WCW was turned into a disaster as a result. The Hart/Benoit matches were the few breaks we were given, but it's like giving someone credit for watering your flowers in between breaking all your windows.

No, Russo shouldn't get any credit as he took a wrestling company that could have been salvaged (maybe) and turned it into the biggest disaster wrestling has ever seen.

 

[CrucifiedRaven]

I agree with klunderbunker above.

Some decisions were good. Putting guys like Hart, Benoit and Booker T in the world title scene was a good idea. Putting guys like Jeff Jarrett in the world title scene and reuniting the nWo 2000 was NOT a good idea.

If you factor in all of the other nonsense that was taking place in late 1999, overbooking, run-ins, non-finishes, constant vacating of titles. There was far more bad than good and the company came across as disorganized and chaotic.

 

[FlairFan2003]

The fact is WWE was producing almost un-watchable Crash TV every week during this time too, they were just hot (thanks in large part to Austin & Rock) but there was a lot of nonsensical title swapping, feuds that made little sense, and some outrageous stupid storylines even by wrestling standards (The Corporate Ministry ?!?!).

WCW had badly damaged it's best commodities by the mid 99 having pretty much languished Goldberg on the mid card since Starrcade 98, several non sensical booking decisions with Sting & Flair, completely butchering anything with Brett Hart, and then right before Russo arrived we had the Sting heel turn (that was a winner) ....the show basically was killing itself before Russo ever arrived.

He tried to re-invent the crap WWE was using and it didn't work. Bottom line, sure he got some things right and did some good individual matches and segments but over all he took a product that butchered most of it's best talent over the past year and mis used them in even worse fashion.

I actually liked what Russo was doing in his second stint much more, except he wouldn't stick with an idea for any length of time. The New Blood vs Millionaires Club or Establishment had real potential, it gave a legit reason for a re aligning of characters who previously had no reason to work together much like the original NWO Invasion did circa 1996. It also allowed several new and/or up and coming stars a chance to shine in matches against established top tier talent. But even here Russo messed it up by A) Not realizing the fans would support the Establishment Guys and see The New Blood as heels B) Booking the feud more evenly with Establishment guys winning more matches C) Allowing the storyline to develop over more time than just a 5-6 week run D) Playing hot potato with the World Title. Initially though this was a great concept that made good use of the roster and re invented several long standing relationships and made them relevant again. It was really good, but typical Russo it didn't last.

 

[THTRobtaylor]

No... You have to remember that much of the Bret stuff in 99 was done by WCW to soften the blow of Owen's death rather than out of genuine desire to book him. If he wasn't being used prominently he'd probably have sat home on his $3m a year on "compassionate grounds". Owen's death gave both he and WCW an impetus to work/use him effectively as an outlet.

I strongly doubt Russo was remotely behind it and that's why he never mentions it. Bret being pushed along with Benoit was Eric's way of helping Bret cope with the horror he had just endured/soften that the guy "responsible" was now in the company and protecting his investment, nothing more.

 

[ShinobiMusashi]

I'm going to disagree with most in this thread and say yes. I'm not going to suck Russo's dick but to a small degree he does deserve a little credit. I watched WCW as it happened back in the day. WCW was awesome for the first 7 or 8 months of 1998, then by the Fall of 1998 shit started going downhill fast. Memories are fleeting, I haven't watched through any of this since it happened, but the way I remember it is that you started seeing less and less of guys like Booker and Eddie and started seeing more and more of guys like Norman Smiley and Lenny Lane.

Going into 1999 to me was when WCW hit rock bottom for my tastes. The show was horrible from January of 99, got worse around the time they changed the Nitro set, and it bottomed out that Summer. I remember a shit feud with Kevin Nash/Sid/Randy Savage, Sting vs Rick Steiner, and that fucking Junkyard hardcore match. WCW just before Russo arrived was total absolute shit.

I never had internet back in the day so I never knew about what was going on behind the scenes during the transition to Russo. I do remember the show just felt like it was getting better in the Fall of 1999, October, November, December, and going into January 2000 it really felt like WCW was turning the ship around and that there was some hope. I'm not saying the show was great but there was a sense that things were getting better than what they were earlier in the year.

All hope was lost when Benoit left as champion. The train really crashed off the tracks after that. Shit really got bad going through February, March, April 2000 and on through the rest of the year was a huge wreck. As bad as it was it was still better than that dark stretch that is the first 7 or 8 months of 1999 in my opinion.

 

[Jack-Hammer]

It's all about averages.

I stink at basketball, always did even as a kid, but the fact that I may have successfully make one or two three pointers for every 15 to 20 attempts doesn't magically negate all those misses and mean I was actually a decent player. It's the same thing with Vince Russo. He signed with WCW in October 1999 and the company as a whole started going downhill and downhill rapidly. For every single idea Russo put on the air that actually did work, he'd put another dozen or more on that stunk up the place worse than a week old corpse in a garbage dump in Phoenix during the height of the summer.

 

[Goldie]

Putting the belt on Bret (albeit briefly after the Goldberg kick) was a good move.
After Owens death there was a lot of sympathy for the Harts- having Bret win the big one had a real good feeling about him amongst wrestling fans- particularly as hart had been held back by previous bookers who had others to pamper.

After that it was all downhill for Russo. Its hilarious hearing him defend his track record in interviews.
Puts the belt on David Arequette (which was the kiss of death for the company), put the world title on himself (another non-worker) where he didn't lose it... turning himself into an onscreen character and booing himself in angles with the hottest women on the roster, replicating WWE storylines, creating storylines with too many swerves (sure you didn't expect it but its frustrating for fans when you can't follow them or they don't make sense), everything 'on-a-pole' matches.....even the Bash at the Beach fiasco where he turned on Hogan (a work that became a shoot) cost WCW when Hogan used them.

 

[Hollywood Naitch]

It's all about averages.

I stink at basketball, always did even as a kid, but the fact that I may have successfully make one or two three pointers for every 15 to 20 attempts doesn't magically negate all those misses and mean I was actually a decent player. It's the same thing with Vince Russo. He signed with WCW in October 1999 and the company as a whole started going downhill and downhill rapidly. For every single idea Russo put on the air that actually did work, he'd put another dozen or more on that stunk up the place worse than a week old corpse in a garbage dump in Phoenix during the height of the summer.

Haha, good examples!

I think it's fair to say that not every single thing Russo did in WCW was terrible, he had his good moments but the vast majority of the stuff put out was absolute dog shit. In my opinion there was no excuse...NONE...for putting the title on David Arquette and especially himself. What an embarrassment to the wrestling industry that was! That really was the final nail in the coffin for WCW in my eyes, no way were they going to come back from that.

The idea of the New Blood v Millionaires Club was good on paper, but was booked horribly, the stuff with Oklahoma was disgusting, the insane number of random things on a pole was just weird and putting a tag-title on Buff Bagwell's Mother? What the absolute fuck?!

Yeah he did do some good work in WCW, but with talents like Benoit, Malenko, Hart, Goldberg, the Cruiserweights etc- he was bound tobook a few good matches and angles, as they were good enough to make even the stupidest angles bearable.

 

[justtxyank]

No... You have to remember that much of the Bret stuff in 99 was done by WCW to soften the blow of Owen's death rather than out of genuine desire to book him. If he wasn't being used prominently he'd probably have sat home on his $3m a year on "compassionate grounds". Owen's death gave both he and WCW an impetus to work/use him effectively as an outlet.

I strongly doubt Russo was remotely behind it and that's why he never mentions it. Bret being pushed along with Benoit was Eric's way of helping Bret cope with the horror he had just endured/soften that the guy "responsible" was now in the company and protecting his investment, nothing more.

This just isn't true.

Bret Hart's WCW timeline:

Arrives at the end of 1997. Can't wrestle but is immediately inserted into the biggest main event in WCW history.

Early 1998 he feuds with Ric Flair (one off)
Feuds with Curt Hennig
Turns heel and becomes the #2 heel in the company behind Hogan
Feuds with Randy Savage, Roddy Piper, Sting and DDP for the bulk of 98.

He suffered an injury at the end of 98 that limited his in ring action before he was finally taken off air (Goldberg/Steel plate incident). He was set to return with a big feud with Kevin Nash over the world title (Nash had challenged Hart to a match for $1 million plus the world title on The Tonight Show) and then Owen died. He obviously took a while off before coming back and going straight to the title.

The "mishandling" of Bret Hart is a myth perpetuated by WWF fans who think that Bret Hart should have come into WCW, taken out the nWo and become world champion, dominating the WCW roster. Hart was used very prominently in WCW storylines from day 1, rarely losing matching and being made to look like the best "wrestler" in the world when he would take out guys like DDP and Booker T. His 98 resume includes wins over Sting, Piper, Savage, Flair, Hennig, DDP, and Lex Luger. Basically every single babyface in the compance except Goldberg (who lost 1 time in 98) has a loss to Bret Hart that year while Bret lost only a handful of matches outside of DQs and never took a loss to Goldberg.

 

[justtxyank]

I'd say both companies made a lot of terrible decisions from 99 on, but Vince Russo certainly made a ton of him.

The big difference though is that the WWF had in prime stars in Austin, HHH, Rock, Foley and Taker could carry a feud, program even the company through bad booking.

WCW was running on old legs and when anything was bad it was even worse because the guys were all old hat. There is nothing they could have done that was really going to make a difference anyway because despite the love people had for Benoit, Malenko, etc. those guys were never stars that would carry the company over Austin/Rock/Taker/HHH, etc.

 

[Wald]

Zero credit to Russo for his time in WCW from me. Why? Well outside of the obvious I'll say that he was a guy hired in to refresh the product and come up with a strategy to compete and beat WWF once more. This was a company with a long tradition of wrestling, more so than the more entertainment focused WWF, and was also a group that had a hugely talented pool of wrestlers in 1999. It had a prominent TV position and it retained decent backing in Turner at that stage. In short, all the pieces were in place for someone to come in an revitalise the product.

Now instead of coming in and sizing up what WCW's advantages were and what he could play up on Russo instead decided to play WWF at their own game. He upped the sleaze, throw in shock tactic after shock tactic and watered down what WCW was. He alienated their core audience of wrestling fans and fought a battle he was always going to lose. WCW simply weren't allowed go to the places that WWF went to. They weren't allowed go 'full Attitude' and Russo should have recognised that from the get go. That he didn't speaks to him not being experienced or skilled enough to have been put in the position he was and the results speak for themselves.

Honestly I've always been the believer that as soon as Eric was removed that WCW should have ended the Monday Night Wars. Either have a lead wrestler or a new authority figure cut a promo about how they're putting all that BS behind them or have them do it in magazines. Go back to not referencing WWF ever again almost immediately and just forget about it. I honestly don't think Vince would have gone after them had they done that, he never wanted to compete in the first place even. Instead I would have focused on what WCW could offer that WWF couldn't. That would be more serious storylines centered around more in-ring action than WWF were providing at the time. I was a WWF loyalist throughout the MNW but WWF in 1999 was mostly woeful and everything that wasn't in the main event in 2000 was equally terrible. The Attitude had lost its shine by that time and I, and I think a lot more, would have given WCW another look had they been offering something other than WWF-lite

 

[peter_midnight]

This just isn't true.

Bret Hart's WCW timeline:

Arrives at the end of 1997. Can't wrestle but is immediately inserted into the biggest main event in WCW history.

Early 1998 he feuds with Ric Flair (one off)
Feuds with Curt Hennig
Turns heel and becomes the #2 heel in the company behind Hogan
Feuds with Randy Savage, Roddy Piper, Sting and DDP for the bulk of 98.

He suffered an injury at the end of 98 that limited his in ring action before he was finally taken off air (Goldberg/Steel plate incident). He was set to return with a big feud with Kevin Nash over the world title (Nash had challenged Hart to a match for $1 million plus the world title on The Tonight Show) and then Owen died. He obviously took a while off before coming back and going straight to the title.

The "mishandling" of Bret Hart is a myth perpetuated by WWF fans who think that Bret Hart should have come into WCW, taken out the nWo and become world champion, dominating the WCW roster. Hart was used very prominently in WCW storylines from day 1, rarely losing matching and being made to look like the best "wrestler" in the world when he would take out guys like DDP and Booker T. His 98 resume includes wins over Sting, Piper, Savage, Flair, Hennig, DDP, and Lex Luger. Basically every single babyface in the compance except Goldberg (who lost 1 time in 98) has a loss to Bret Hart that year while Bret lost only a handful of matches outside of DQs and never took a loss to Goldberg.

You're telling me that Bret Hart tapping out to Lex Luger in a single leg boston crab on PPV wasn't mishandling the guy that PINNED Yokozuna, something that Lex Luger never did? C'mon son!

He also had to say on TV that he looked up to Hulk Hogan.

He also had to job to DDP twice once on Nitro then again on PPV.

He jobbed to Roddy Piper in 99 according to one online source (which I don't remember). How about the fact that he had to come out week after week begging the fans to give him another chance because he regretting being a heel only to turn heel weeks later and offer El Dandy a shot at the US title?

Bret was definitely mishandled.