Gail Kim?

[Chill]

Does anyone think Gail Kim will accomplish much in her second WWE run? She's been back a while now and has done virtually nothing, her matches thus far have been fair but all in all she hasn't exactly made an earth shattering impact and to make matters worse for the former champ, she's no more over than Kurt Hawkins...yes, it's that bad.

So in a WWE were the Divas segments, matches and pretty much every other damn thing are given so little attention, is it possible for Kim to get over here? Should she have stayed with TNA? Maybe so but there wasn't much left for her to do over there...fingers crossed this talented female competitor will get a chance in WWE but it hasn't looked good thus far...

 

[kingdirrtysouth1]

HEELLLL NOOOO! They are booking her as a second class diva! She should be allowed to show off the talent she so obviously has, yet she is being booked to look as is she no better than Michelle McCool! They should turn her heel so that she can compete against Melina!

 

[MisterRob]

Wow, you guys are really jumping the gun on this one, aren't you? How long has Gail Kim actually been back in the WWE on television? Not very long at all. A month? Maybe two? What exactly do you expect the WWE to have done with her in that short span of time? She came back and picked up a number of impressive wins and was being pushed, and she's still being showcased as one of the leading women on Smackdown. Just because she hasn't won the Women's championship yet doesn't mean she isn't going to, she's been on television every week and been carrying the matches she's in every week. I think she's got a very bright future back in the WWE, but I think you need to give her a bit more time then a freaking month. She's not going to duplicate what she did in her first run in WWE by winning the title on her debut, nor should she.

 

[HHHDiedForOurSins]

Losing cleanly to Michelle McCool for 2 straight weeks can't be a good sign for her prospects.

Her matches with Maryse and her interaction with Melina in that tag match on RAW are really her only highlights so far since her return and she's not over at all, which is a shame.

I hope they turn Melina heel and have a Melina-Gail feud over the title but something tells me they're gonna give McCool that spot in their 467th attempt to get her over.

 

[Coco]

Newsflash: McCool is over. Easily the most over heel diva on SD and has been for months.

Gail-Melina in a face-face fued doesn't strike as appealing at all, so I think after McCool is done with Gail she'll move on to the champ and probably stands a good chance of winning the belt. I can't say Gail won't go anywhere in the future, but ATM I doubt she's headed for any success in the next few months.

 

[Mustang Sally]

Losing cleanly to Michelle McCool for 2 straight weeks can't be a good sign for her prospects.

Maybe it is, though. It seems to me that WWE has a method of operation that doesn't allow for a new wrestler to come into the company and immediately defeat their top star. Gail has shown some terrific moves but still seems to have some ring rust after being off for so many months.

I think it's fine to have her make Michelle look good for awhile. Eventually, it should turn around.

 

[Bernkastel]

Losing cleanly to Michelle McCool for 2 straight weeks can't be a good sign for her prospects.

I think it's fine to have her make Michelle look good for awhile. Eventually, it should turn around.

How is she making McCool look good? That doesn't make any sense. If anything it's the other way around. McCool already has credibility as the top female heel on the show, so by feuding with Gail, she is building Gail's character and credibility in the eyes of the fans. They'll want to see Gail beat MCool in the future, it'll mean something to them.

 

[Scott Free]

How is she making McCool look good? That doesn't make any sense. If anything it's the other way around. McCool already has credibility as the top female heel on the show, so by feuding with Gail, she is building Gail's character and credibility in the eyes of the fans. They'll want to see Gail beat MCool in the future, it'll mean something to them.

She's making McCool look good by actually selling her moves better than 70% of the current WWE women's roster. To the kayfabe general wrestling fans, Michelle is defeating a top TNA Knockout, to WWE only fans, it doesn't mean much. Jim Cornette claimed the WWE only signed Kim to take her away from TNA, I don't know about that, I heard she was instrumental backstage in setting up the TNA Knockout division, maybe the WWE needs her to help out with their women's division backstage first rather than putting a title on her right away, they did that before, and it didn't work out too well.

 

[Bernkastel]

She's making McCool look good by actually selling her moves better than 70% of the current WWE women's roster.

Again, that doesn't make much sense because it's not about selling one's moveset, instead it's about selling the tactics Michelle utilizes as a heel. From the matches I've seen between the two, Michelle has been the one putting in most of the work building up Gail Kim's credibility as a face.

 

[Scott Free]

Again, that doesn't make much sense because it's not about selling one's moveset, instead it's about selling the tactics Michelle utilizes as a heel. From the matches I've seen between the two, Michelle has been the one putting in most of the work building up Gail Kim's credibility as a face.

I see your point, and it does make sense, what I was saying is that if, let's say Kelly Kelly was put in Kim's place, Michelle would still come off as a heel and Kelly as the face, except the cringe-worthy botches that would happen in that match would defuse the whole thing. Michelle is a pretty good wrestler but you still have to work with someone that can put over the moves and psychology of the match to make it somewhat interesting, it's never a one person show, I don't care what Flair says, so you can say Michelle was working hard to build up Kim's credibility, but she's the one that got the wins, so maybe Kim was also working to build up Michelle's credibility by putting her over as the winner, I didn't see both matches, only the first one and it seemed like a pretty clean finish to me. The WWE rarely put top stars from any other organization into their top tier right away, it's brand protection, you might have been TNA Women's Champ, but now, in the big leagues, you have to establish yourself again and work your way up. I expect Kim to do a lot of chasing before she gets the belt again.

 

[Bernkastel]

I see your point, and it does make sense, what I was saying is that if, let's say Kelly Kelly was put in Kim's place, Michelle would still come off as a heel and Kelly as the face, except the cringe-worthy botches that would happen in that match would defuse the whole thing. Michelle is a pretty good wrestler but you still have to work with someone that can put over the moves and psychology of the match to make it somewhat interesting, it's never a one person show, I don't care what Flair says, so you can say Michelle was working hard to build up Kim's credibility, but she's the one that got the wins, so maybe Kim was also working to build up Michelle's credibility by putting her over as the winner, I didn't see both matches, only the first one and it seemed like a pretty clean finish to me. The WWE rarely put top stars from any other organization into their top tier right away, it's brand protection, you might have been TNA Women's Champ, but now, in the big leagues, you have to establish yourself again and work your way up. I expect Kim to do a lot of chasing before she gets the belt again.

The number of moves used in a match has very little to do with the overall quality of the match. Had you put Kelly in Gail's place the resulting match would have been the same because Kelly knows how to play off Michelle's heel tactics, and she knows how to play a good face. Kelly knows how to use proper psychology in a match, which is something that Gail Kim struggles with.

Look at the feud between Candice and Beth, all of their matches really consisted of was Beth hitting a few power moves and Candice selling them for 5 minutes before hitting a comeback and getting the upset win, but that's all they really needed to be. They had great chemistry, and the crowds bought into their matches, and both women benefited from the feud.

And your right, there is no such thing as a one person show, but most of the time one person puts in far more effort than the other, rarely do you have a match of a perfect equilibrium of give and take. And in these series of matches with Michelle and Gail, Michelle has been the one putting in the work to make Gail look good in the eyes of the fans, both in character and in her ability to work a match.

 

[Scott Free]

The number of moves used in a match has very little to do with the overall quality of the match. Had you put Kelly in Gail's place the resulting match would have been the same because Kelly knows how to play off Michelle's heel tactics, and she knows how to play a good face. Kelly knows how to use proper psychology in a match, which is something that Gail Kim struggles with.

I don't think Kelly knows how to spell psychology, never mind how to use it, but hey, you can believe what you want.

Look at the feud between Candice and Beth, all of their matches really consisted of was Beth hitting a few power moves and Candice selling them for 5 minutes before hitting a comeback and getting the upset win, but that's all they really needed to be. They had great chemistry, and the crowds bought into their matches, and both women benefited from the feud.

If I recall that feud pretty much ended when Candice fell on her face while trying to get fancy on the top rope, just an example of fluff vs talent, all the chemistry in the world isn't going to overcome lack of talent, Candice tried, very hard, but she just isn't talented enough to pull some stunts off without getting hurt, Phoenix benefited so much from that fiasco she wound up losing the title to Melina and playing straight man for Santino, you may see it as a success, I might not.

And your right, there is no such thing as a one person show, but most of the time one person puts in far more effort than the other, rarely do you have a match of a perfect equilibrium of give and take. And in these series of matches with Michelle and Gail, Michelle has been the one putting in the work to make Gail look good in the eyes of the fans, both in character and in her ability to work a match.

I watched their Smackdown rematch, and let's face it, Michelle was working to put Michelle over. In your view of reality, making someone look good includes scoring clean pins on them, in my view, that's actually a way to bury someone, I'm not suggesting Gail Kim is getting buried by only 2 loses, but I am telling you that the person that benefited the most out of those 2 matches sure as hell wasn't Gail Kim, not by a long shot.

 

[Bernkastel]

I don't think Kelly knows how to spell psychology, never mind how to use it, but hey, you can believe what you want.

I'm not sure you know what psychology is then. Psychology is about connecting with the audience and making them buy into your character and match, whether it be by selling moves or selling a gimmick. I've seen Kelly do this on a consistent basis, which became evident through the increased exposure she received while Candice was injured. That and the fact she always received positive feedback in her matches. The crowds always cheered her on, despite if she won or lost. To me that would seem like a proficient use of psychology.

If I recall that feud pretty much ended when Candice fell on her face while trying to get fancy on the top rope

true

just an example of fluff vs talent

So when Brock Lesnar botched the SSP that was an example of talent vs inexperience too right?

all the chemistry in the world isn't going to overcome lack of talent, Candice tried, very hard, but she just isn't talented enough to pull some stunts off without getting hurt

Why would Candice need to do a bunch of elaborate spots in order to have a good match? Only wrestlers with poor psychology such as Beth, or Gail , or Victoria need to resort to popping the crowd through the use of random big spots.

Take this match as an example, I consider it the best match in the Candice, Beth series. It's a prime example of the synergy between the two, as well as a testament to Candice's talent.

[youtube]qwA8XpTuqcY[/youtube]

Phoenix benefited so much from that fiasco she wound up losing the title to Melina and playing straight man for Santino, you may see it as a success, I might not.

Phoenix was shit as champion, she was boring and incredibly superficial, that's why she lost the belt. If anything Candice's injury proved that Candice was the one carrying the feud, and when she was taken out of action Beth just lost all momentum. Not even Mickie could breathe live back into her title reign.

I watched their Smackdown rematch, and let's face it, Michelle was working to put Michelle over.In your view of reality, making someone look good includes scoring clean pins on them, in my view, that's actually a way to bury someone

Which one did you watch? The one that I saw, Gail pinned Michelle. And even if Michelle did win, I already explained how that would have benefited Gail. Michelle has credibility as one of the top heels on the female roster, Gail is a newcomer. In the eyes of the fans, a competitive match between the two in which Michelle has to pull out the stops to pin Gail would force the fans behind Gail in the future out of their hatred for Michelle. It's a simple manner of give and take.

I'm not suggesting Gail Kim is getting buried by only 2 loses, but I am telling you that the person that benefited the most out of those 2 matches sure as hell wasn't Gail Kim, not by a long shot.

And even if Gail continued to lose competitive matches, it still wouldn't mean that she was getting buried. Look at the matches between Kelly and Beth, you don't honestly believe that Kelly didn't benefit at all from those matches and was just simply buried? A win isn't everything that counts in a pro wrestling match.

 

[JGlass]

I think this is jumping the gun a little. She hasn't been in the WWE very long at all yet. Look at diva's that are super over like Mickie, she went from being champion to barely being on TV, it's just part of the cycle. I'm sure we'll see Mickie back in the diva scene soon, just I am sure Gail Kim will have her moment in the sun pretty soon. In addition to that, I'm pretty sure WWE is trying to push Michelle McCool as the top heel diva on Smackdown and a very talented wrestler, even though she hasn't impressed me so much yet. I'm going to give Gail Kim a few more months before I decide she's getting buried.

 

[Scott Free]

I'm not sure you know what psychology is then. Psychology is about connecting with the audience and making them buy into your character and match, whether it be by selling moves or selling a gimmick. I've seen Kelly do this on a consistent basis, which became evident through the increased exposure she received while Candice was injured. That and the fact she always received positive feedback in her matches. The crowds always cheered her on, despite if she won or lost. To me that would seem like a proficient use of psychology.

You're confusing conditioned audience response for psychology, the WWE has bombarded the fans with how lovable and nice Kelly is, so when she's in the ring with a bruiser like Beth, of course they are going to care, and you're right, it has nothing to do with wrestling talent, it is a sort of psychology, but it's not exactly Kelly that's pulling it off, it's the booking of the match.

So when Brock Lesnar botched the SSP that was an example of talent vs inexperience too right?

Botches happen all the time, Owen Hart piledriver on Stone Cold botch wasn't a case of inexperience, sometimes things go wrong. Then you have Candice, who injures herself like clockwork almost in every big match, there's a difference.

Why would Candice need to do a bunch of elaborate spots in order to have a good match? Only wrestlers with poor psychology such as Beth, or Gail , or Victoria need to resort to popping the crowd through the use of random big spots.

Take this match as an example, I consider it the best match in the Candice, Beth series. It's a prime example of the synergy between the two, as well as a testament to Candice's talent.

I won't debate you on Candice's "talent" except to say it's most evident in her Playboy layout than in the ring. Watch that match again, and you'll see Beth practically pinning herself to get Candice over.

Phoenix was shit as champion, she was boring and incredibly superficial, that's why she lost the belt. If anything Candice's injury proved that Candice was the one carrying the feud, and when she was taken out of action Beth just lost all momentum. Not even Mickie could breathe live back into her title reign.

I can't argue with that.

Which one did you watch? The one that I saw, Gail pinned Michelle. And even if Michelle did win, I already explained how that would have benefited Gail. Michelle has credibility as one of the top heels on the female roster, Gail is a newcomer. In the eyes of the fans, a competitive match between the two in which Michelle has to pull out the stops to pin Gail would force the fans behind Gail in the future out of their hatred for Michelle. It's a simple manner of give and take.

I watched the Smackdown one this week, where Michelle pinned Gail clean with a damn good counter. I don't think that benefited Gail much, I would have rather have her first get a few wins over other lesser pushed Divas before starting to feud with Michelle. You seem to honestly believe the WWE isn't deliberately putting one of their best workers in the ring with Kim and having her go over time after time just to "build her up", I see your point, but I don't buy it for a second. I've seen it done before. Kim is a "newcomer" ? Sure, that's if you're living under a rock or subscribe to the official version of reality of the WWE Universe, in which there is no TNA. We will have to wait and see what happens next.


BTW: Kim seems a bit rusty and not performing at the level she was in TNA, I have no idea why.

 

[Bernkastel]

You're confusing conditioned audience response for psychology, the WWE has bombarded the fans with how lovable and nice Kelly is, so when she's in the ring with a bruiser like Beth, of course they are going to care, and you're right, it has nothing to do with wrestling talent, it is a sort of psychology, but it's not exactly Kelly that's pulling it off, it's the booking of the match.

Good point, but then again the WWE did the same thing for Maria, yet her matches are mostly dead for the most part, save for the catcall taunt. Kelly on the other hand, the crowds would always pop for her entrance, and they'd always pop for her comeback, even if she lost the match. That told me that it had to be something more than just booking and crowd conditioning at work.

Botches happen all the time, Owen Hart piledriver on Stone Cold botch wasn't a case of inexperience, sometimes things go wrong. Then you have Candice, who injures herself like clockwork almost in every big match, there's a difference.

Trish Stratus was a heavy botcher as well, who often botched key spots in big matches. Surely you're not going to try to tell me that Trish had no ability either.

I won't debate you on Candice's "talent" except to say it's most evident in her Playboy layout than in the ring. Watch that match again, and you'll see Beth practically pinning herself to get Candice over.

I have no clue what you're talking about. Candice's performance was excellent in that match, she carried the entire thing. She sold all of Beth's moves, sold the beatdown she received, and the crowd bought into her comeback. Candice did what she was supposed to do, the crowd cheered her and booed Beth. And even though Beth lost, she still came out looking more dangerous than before. She dominated the whole match, yet Candice had barely beaten her with a surprise roll up. That showed the fans that Candice knew she was no match for Beth, so she merely outsmarted her. The same tactic did not work the next time they faced off, as Beth pinned Candice for the belt.

I watched the Smackdown one this week, where Michelle pinned Gail clean with a damn good counter. I don't think that benefited Gail much, I would have rather have her first get a few wins over other lesser pushed Divas before starting to feud with Michelle. You seem to honestly believe the WWE isn't deliberately putting one of their best workers in the ring with Kim and having her go over time after time just to "build her up"

The match I watched, Gail pinned Michelle, so the point is void. Perhaps the WWE is doing a feud between the two that'll lead to a feud with Melina for the belt.

I see your point, but I don't buy it for a second. I've seen it done before. Kim is a "newcomer" ? Sure, that's if you're living under a rock or subscribe to the official version of reality of the WWE Universe, in which there is no TNA. We will have to wait and see what happens next.

WWE does everything according to their own reality. Though their kayfabe glasses, Gail just merely went away for a few years and then came back, as did Christian. The WWE has no real reason to mention an inferior product on their show, and they have nothing to accomplish from it, and it won't mean anything.

Kim seems a bit rusty and not performing at the level she was in TNA, I have no idea why.

Probably because their aren't any female workers on Smackdown as good as Kong that could carry Gail to the quality of matches she was putting on with her.

 

[Mighty NorCal]

Anyways. I dont see how she is anything special. Has she even won any matches? Meh. I dont really see her as anything too fantastic, and hasnt shown an awful lot in the ring. Basically pretty cookie cutter, just another mid level decent worker in the WWE. Id be suprised if she ever took a title, she isnt really attractive enough.

 

[Scott Free]

Good point, but then again the WWE did the same thing for Maria, yet her matches are mostly dead for the most part, save for the catcall taunt. Kelly on the other hand, the crowds would always pop for her entrance, and they'd always pop for her comeback, even if she lost the match. That told me that it had to be something more than just booking and crowd conditioning at work.

Of course there was, I never said she had no charisma, just limited talent.

Trish Stratus was a heavy botcher as well, who often botched key spots in big matches. Surely you're not going to try to tell me that Trish had no ability either.

She had the ability to not get injured to the point she'd be out for months after a match.

I have no clue what you're talking about. Candice's performance was excellent in that match, she carried the entire thing. She sold all of Beth's moves, sold the beatdown she received, and the crowd bought into her comeback. Candice did what she was supposed to do, the crowd cheered her and booed Beth. And even though Beth lost, she still came out looking more dangerous than before. She dominated the whole match, yet Candice had barely beaten her with a surprise roll up. That showed the fans that Candice knew she was no match for Beth, so she merely outsmarted her. The same tactic did not work the next time they faced off, as Beth pinned Candice for the belt.

Like I said, I won't debate you on Candice's in ring talent or lack thereof. Tell you what, start a new thread titled "Why Candice is an excellent worker." I'm pretty sure you'll get tons of replies.

The match I watched, Gail pinned Michelle, so the point is void. Perhaps the WWE is doing a feud between the two that'll lead to a feud with Melina for the belt.

I only watched Smackdown, and in both matches, Gail lost clean, where did you see her win ?

WWE does everything according to their own reality. Though their kayfabe glasses, Gail just merely went away for a few years and then came back, as did Christian. The WWE has no real reason to mention an inferior product on their show, and they have nothing to accomplish from it, and it won't mean anything.

I agree on that summation, I'm not crazy about "their own reality". Kind of suggest they are full of their own ego, denial that any other wrestling product exists beyond theirs, inferior or not, has the arrogant connotation that the WWE is above the very business they are into.

Probably because their aren't any female workers on Smackdown as good as Kong that could carry Gail to the quality of matches she was putting on with her.

No, I don't think that it, she seems lost and out of place somehow, maybe she'll adjust.

 

[Scott Free]

Anyways. I dont see how she is anything special. Has she even won any matches? Meh. I dont really see her as anything too fantastic, and hasnt shown an awful lot in the ring. Basically pretty cookie cutter, just another mid level decent worker in the WWE. Id be suprised if she ever took a title, she isnt really attractive enough.

I can't see anything special in her either, but hell, when she debuted in the WWE, someone there must have seen something special, because they slapped the belt on her right away, it turned out not so great. Then she went to TNA, again, someone must have seen something in her, because she worked her way to the top right away, and again won the title. The WWE must have gotten flashbacks of what they originally thought special about her, because they brought her back, I still don't see anything special about her, and she isn't all that attractive, my only guess is that she's great in the sack.