Face Vs Heel logic.

[harrythem]

Ok so I'm watching Impact over here in England and, I can't believe I've just seen even more backwards booking by TNA.

Doug Williams retained the title against Brian Kendrick at the last PPV with a clean victory so Kendrick attacks Williams from behind and, as such, gets himself a title shot at the next PPV?

My question is how in the hell can anyone make sense of a face losing a match CLEANLY and getting a title shot because he jumped the heel from behind? Surely that's just backwards and, honestly, complete bollocks!

 

[Gelgarin]

Oh good grief. It never ceases to amaze me how people can bitch constantly about TNA being a watered down copy of WWE, yet each and every time TNA attempt to deviate their product away from the mainstream standard then people who think they understand the product better than they actually do will queue up to shout about how TNA is doing things "wrong".

Your post is loaded up with silliness which I will skip over, pausing only to ask the question; "what the hell makes you think Kendrick is a face?"
Since debuting he has been a hyper-agressive loner who has teamed almost exclusively with heels. He has not cut a single legitimate face promo, his limited mic time being devoted to getting him over as some kind of psychotic intellectual, not as the goody-two-shoes babyface that wrestling revolved around in the 1970s.

The point is this. Brian Kendrick is not a babyface. At the moment he's not really much of a heel either, though I'd put money on him becoming one before long. What he is is what the majority of TNA's roster are... a character. Whether he's being cast in the role of good guy or bad guy, Kendrick'd character seems to be exactly the type who would unpredictably assault someone from behind, because he's unpredictable (read: interesting)

TNA and Vince Russo (who is pretty good at his job and anyone who says otherwise is a tool) have always shown limited regard for the whole face/heel divide, mostly because it's a thoroughly antiquated idea. Modern television is all about character development, and off the top of my head I can't name a single popular show aimed at a viewer ship over the age of twelve which regiments its cast into predefined categories of good guy and bad guy.

TNA's focus on a character driven product is them being the alternative everyone is clamouring for, and has been for a veritable age. The roster is chocked full of guys who don't have a clear alignment (MCMG, Kendrick, Joe etc) and in my mind (as a fan of character driven entertainment) it makes the product much more interesting. Some people disagree, and that's perfectly fine. But those people really do need to get a handle on the idea that possible, just possibly, that's TNA booking itself towards a different audience rather than them doing things "wrong".

When you say backward booking, what you actually mean is "not doing things like the WE", which I'm inclined to celibate. I already avoid almost thirty hours of that stuff a month, and would rather not have to dodge more.

Now I broke a massive posting hiatus to post this little rant, so you better bloody enjoy it.

 

[snoopy]

Great! Great! post I totally agree with you if they do the stanard stuff then it's looked at being wwe-lite and then if they do something different then it's stupid and it's not's supposed to be done that way. I'll tell this is the most frustrating issue I have with these critics and Iwc. they don't seem to no what they want standard wrestling or something cutting edge or thaught provoking . it almost has to simplified to a point that is totally ridiculous!

 

[ABMorales787]

Ok so I'm watching Impact over here in England and, I can't believe I've just seen even more backwards booking by TNA.

Doug Williams retained the title against Brian Kendrick at the last PPV with a clean victory so Kendrick attacks Williams from behind and, as such, gets himself a title shot at the next PPV?

My question is how in the hell can anyone make sense of a face losing a match CLEANLY and getting a title shot because he jumped the heel from behind? Surely that's just backwards and, honestly, complete bollocks!

And how is this new? This happens all the time. It's reverse psychology. It helps you get behind the face and shows that the face is more of a character and not just a stereotype good guy who no matter what always plays by the rules. Didn't Eddie Guerrero cheat to win his matches? That's a heel tactic yet Eddie got over as a face, hugely. Steve Austin was an asshole just before he cut the 3:16 promo and remained that way until after Wrestlemania 13 when he became a babyface. His alignment changed but not the gimmick. He still got over. Being straight edge should be a good thing, right? But CM Punk is a heel. Is any of this reverse booking? No. It works just fine. Brian Kendrick is no different. He's working with a gimmick that allows him to bend the one dimensional line between face and heel. Nothing wrong with that. Especially when we get the first one on one Ultimate X match in years.

 

[harrythem]

Your post is loaded up with silliness which I will skip over, pausing only to ask the question; "what the hell makes you think Kendrick is a face?"

so saying I think it's stupid that someone loses a Title match cleanly on PPV but because he attacks someone from behind this results in him getting a title rematch at the next PPV, is silly?

If you're going to talk about character development then surely Hogan and Bischoff who're seen as the guys running TNA and they talk about getting things going forward, etc, wouldn't reward someone for losing.

And the promo Kendrick performed on Impact, along with his actions when Williams went for him, were definately leaning more towards the face side of things. Might not be completely face but was positioned more towards it then heel.

I'm more of a WWE fan but I do enjoy parts of what TNA puts out. I don't care what company it is, logic is still logic and it shouldn't be ignored. I'd actually prefer Kendrick as X Division champion as he's more what the X should be about but I can't ever see the logic in being rewarded for losing cleanly.

 

[Balls_of_Jericho]

. Modern television is all about character development, and off the top of my head I can't name a single popular show aimed at a viewer ship over the age of twelve which regiments its cast into predefined categories of good guy and bad guy.

.

Seriously??? I could rattle off a load off my head right now, lets see: Dr. who, torchwood, ashes to ashes, primeval, any generic fantasy series - Ie going postal is on RIGHT now, hell even wwe if you assume pg isn't just for minors (and if it was what we all doing on here?)

Now maybe you have an awesome social life and don't catch much TV in which case i'll forgive ya! =)

 

[THE Madcap]

Ok so I'm watching Impact over here in England and, I can't believe I've just seen even more backwards booking by TNA.

Doug Williams retained the title against Brian Kendrick at the last PPV with a clean victory so Kendrick attacks Williams from behind and, as such, gets himself a title shot at the next PPV?

My question is how in the hell can anyone make sense of a face losing a match CLEANLY and getting a title shot because he jumped the heel from behind? Surely that's just backwards and, honestly, complete bollocks!

I wouldn't be so hasty to mark that down as backwards booking. Whilst I'm usually a massive detractor of what TNA put out week after week, this actually makes sense to me.

Are you telling me that your own personal failures don't dissapoint, nay, piss you off from time to time? Is it not possible that Kendrick wanted to send a statement to say to Williams and the rest of TNA "hey, i'm not gonna give up yet" cos THAT's WHAT COMPETITIVE ATHLETES DO.

Nice to see TNA buck the trend here actually.

 

[Kaeden]

i don't know where the TS has been for the last 15 or so years, but this 'backwards booking' he claims is hardly new. Its the same anti-face behavior that made superstars out of Austin, Foley, anyone who worked in ECW...i could go on.

TNA has continually blurred the lines between heel and face for at least as long as i've been watching...and this bothers you now? Its one of the most interesting parts of the program, to see the characters develop above stereotypes and cliches.

 

[ABMorales787]

so saying I think it's stupid that someone loses a Title match cleanly on PPV but because he attacks someone from behind this results in him getting a title rematch at the next PPV, is silly?

If you're going to talk about character development then surely Hogan and Bischoff who're seen as the guys running TNA and they talk about getting things going forward, etc, wouldn't reward someone for losing.

And the promo Kendrick performed on Impact, along with his actions when Williams went for him, were definately leaning more towards the face side of things. Might not be completely face but was positioned more towards it then heel.

I'm more of a WWE fan but I do enjoy parts of what TNA puts out. I don't care what company it is, logic is still logic and it shouldn't be ignored. I'd actually prefer Kendrick as X Division champion as he's more what the X should be about but I can't ever see the logic in being rewarded for losing cleanly.

He's neurotic. He himself isn't supposed to make sense. There is nothing illogical about losing to the champion but getting another chance. It happens in boxing. It happens in MMA. When a challenger continues to show that he wants to fight the champion even though he's already lost, it shows he still wants more.The story here is that Douglas kept babbleing about technical wrestling and how he was better than the X Division because he doesn't do high flying, but during their match that exactly what he did to win. He went back on his word so Kendrick wants to take it to him again.This time prepared to face Douglas and his deceptive offense.

 

[harrythem]

He's neurotic. He himself isn't supposed to make sense. There is nothing illogical about losing to the champion but getting another chance. It happens in boxing. It happens in MMA. When a challenger continues to show that he wants to fight the champion even though he's already lost, it shows he still wants more.The story here is that Douglas kept babbleing about technical wrestling and how he was better than the X Division because he doesn't do high flying, but during their match that exactly what he did to win. He went back on his word so Kendrick wants to take it to him again.This time prepared to face Douglas and his deceptive offense.

Yeah but in boxing and MMA to get another title match they have to at least win a number one contenders match or, if they're not going to do that, lose controversially so there's a clamour for a re-match.

Williams might've used a style he said he wouldn't but, he did nothing illegal and won cleanly, at least to continue his feud with Shannon Moore he cheated to win, that made sense. Kendrick lost cleanly and did nothing to show he deserves a rematch.

Again I enjoyed most of TNA Impact this week but I just don't get why they'd dump on the X division with this stuff as, considering the X was the big difference between WWE and TNA, surely this is counter-productive, with some of the talented X Div wrestlers they have?

And with the person saying they did this sort of thing with Austin, Foley etc I say re-watch things. Austin made it clear he didn't care about winning and losing, for him it was about kicking ass and he didn't lose cleanly on TV from November 96 (to Bret Hart) through, pretty much, till he lost to Angle in 2001. Foley made it from those Hell-In-A-Cell falls and that damn sock. WWE's booking might be poor now but they had a lot more sense when they were moving Austin & Co towards the main event, hell Russo was a part of that so it just stuns me how he can know, and be part of, getting it so right yet go against it now. There's trying to be different then there's throwing logic out of the window as, it doesn't lead to character progression, it just leads to audience apathy, something TNA really can't deal with right now

 

[Sting's Bat]

Yeah but in boxing and MMA to get another title match they have to at least win a number one contenders match or, if they're not going to do that, lose controversially so there's a clamour for a re-match.

You have to remember though its quite common in wrestling for a title fued to continue on after a main ppv, hell most wrestlemania fueds dont get resolved till backlash.

Really its nice that tna is running a consistant storyline with the X-division instead of tacked on last minute matches at the next ppv.

 

[Tiger Chaos Theory]

Hey, did you read Gelgarin's post?

Because I highly recommend you do. He hit every point that need to be made.

Kendrick has done nothing to suggest he is a face, and if you believe he is one, you don't understand the definition of a predefined face. He hasn't clamored for the fans, he hasn't helped others, he's just being Brian Fucking-Crazy-Third-Eye-Having Kendrick. I could go one forever about how fans like you put too much stock classical booking just because the WWE has done it for years, but just because the E does/has done it, doesn't mean it's the only viable option.

I wouldn't be so hasty to mark that down as backwards booking. Whilst I'm usually a massive detractor of what TNA put out week after week, this actually makes sense to me.

Are you telling me that your own personal failures don't dissapoint, nay, piss you off from time to time? Is it not possible that Kendrick wanted to send a statement to say to Williams and the rest of TNA "hey, i'm not gonna give up yet" cos THAT's WHAT COMPETITIVE ATHLETES DO.

Nice to see TNA buck the trend here actually.

A character taking it upon himself to, despite previous failures, better himself and overcome, what are you smoking man? That doesn't make any sense at all./sarcasm

On to how he got another title shot. Try a bit of simple math here. Let's not forget that Kendrick has a win over Doug Williams plus the fact that Doug Williams had to use a maneuver which classifies as a spotmonkey move, the very same moves he's bashed endlessly for months now.

So rubber match + Ring psychology hypocrisy = title shot.

And why wouldn't Williams want revenge on someone he's defined as a spot monkey, who comes out and chokes him using a move he himself has put over as being real wrestling? It's embarrassing and someone Like Williams wouldn't be too fond of it.

 

[Scotty]

He's neurotic. He himself isn't supposed to make sense. There is nothing illogical about losing to the champion but getting another chance. It happens in boxing. It happens in MMA. When a challenger continues to show that he wants to fight the champion even though he's already lost, it shows he still wants more.The story here is that Douglas kept babbleing about technical wrestling and how he was better than the X Division because he doesn't do high flying, but during their match that exactly what he did to win. He went back on his word so Kendrick wants to take it to him again.This time prepared to face Douglas and his deceptive offense.

^This.

His gimmick is completely unstable, and he makes it work. Did you not see the segment from this past iMPACT! where he spoke nonsense into Doug Williams ear as he choked him into unconsciousness. That segment was gold in my opinion and there was no clear cut face or heel.

Both men have a legitimate gripes and both men can be confused as the face or heel. If someone saw that segment for the first time they would say that Douglas Williams was the face to Kendricks heel. Whereas someone who was shown the entire feud could say that either was the face.

Kendrick could be the face because the argument could be made that Williams went back on his word and won by means in which he claimed he didn't need. Williams also has the gripe that Kendrick is just sour at the fact that he was beaten with his own game.