Education Kills Faith & Science

[SalvIsWin]

That's according to Republican Presidential hopeful Rick Santorum.
(Source: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/01/26/rick-santorum-college-indoctrination_n_1233820.html)

Rick Santorum recently spoke at a First Baptist Church in Florida, Rick Santorum said:

"The indoctrination that occurs in American Universities is one of the keys to the left holding and maintaining power in America. And it is indoctrination... If they taught Judeo Christian principles int hose colleges and universities, they would be stripped of every dollar, if they teach radical secular ideology, they get all the government support they could possibly get."

"62% of children who enter College with a faith conviction leave without it."

Santorum advised those in the Church to not give money to Colleges or Universities, as that would be perpetuating the liberal indoctrination.

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My own take: Rick Santorum proves yet again that he is an ignorant man. I don't know where Santorum got his 62% number, but there have been plenty of studies concluding that educated people are less likely to have faith in a religion or God. Santorum's conclusion to this is that Colleges & Universities teach left-wing doctrine that is anti-faith, and anti-religion.

Santorum's assessment is both stupid and incorrect. There's a reason why education is correlated with a lack of belief/faith in God/Religion, and it has nothing to do with indoctrination. Colleges & Universities (generally) teach facts, logic, and reason, not belief and faith - that's not their domain. Facts, logic, and reason are important aspects of getting a higher education, belief and faith are not.

Colleges & Universities also place an emphasis on critical thinking, especially in the social sciences. So here's the situation: Kids are going off to institutions that teach facts, logic, reason, and critical thinking. After being exposed to that environment, these kids begin to lose their faith. Is that indoctrination? Clearly what's happening is that when someones faith is critically examined, it's not as convincing. It isn't a case of kids being pried away from their religion, it's kids applying what they've learned in classrooms about logic, reasoning, and critical thinking, and they're applying this to their faith and coming away not convinced.

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Questions:

Do you agree with Rick Santorum? Why or why not?

What's the real reason that children lose their faith after higher education?

 

[brighamosity]

First of all, I call BS on the 62% thing. I know plenty of people who graduated from college and still consider themselves Christians. So he is either lying about that, or greatly twisting the information.

With that said, I think the answer is quite obvious. Kids believe in Santa and the Easter Bunny. Why? Because kids believe everything they are told. They only stop believing in Santa because eventually they hear rumors that he's not real and at some point their parents eventually confess. The difference between Santa and Jesus is that no one ever tells them the truth so they just keep on believing. The older they get, the more likely they are to question it. And the more educated they get, the less likely they are to believe it.

 

[H33LTurn]

I wouldnt say that its indoctrination but the current education system does play a role in students losing their faith. Fist of all the surroundings are harsh and crude, with your parents being the only backbone to your religion. Schools have been pressured to completely remove anything involving God from the lessons unless its something to the effect of studying societies in a social studies class. So now you're young, impressionable, in a environment that breeds negativity (no one can doubt that some of the worst experiences such as bullying occur during school age years) and God has been completely removed from everything you do. On top of that science is fed to you like it was absolute truth and fact. Only by doing your own research do you realize where the faults lie in some of these "facts" your science teachers seem to be willing to bet their houses on. And I have to disagree with the whole teaching logic point you made. The American educational system teaches students how to be obedient workers. What class is teaching you to be a responsible citizen, a good neighbor, a faithful husband/wife, and a righteous God fearing person? Theres no class thats telling you to keep the faith. We live in a society thats overcome with negativity and getting pleasure out of the wrong things with school being the excellent supplier to test the waters. Eventually students become more concerned with passing classes and fitting in than with pleasing a God no one has taught them about besides their pastors and parents (and we know how much kids listen to those people, right?). I think if schools taught about human nature, the way people actually function and how the Bible mentions all of it instead of hearing a science teacher say big bang, a social studies teacher refer to Christianity as "that thing those people during that time period in that part of the world believed in when they used to kill non believers", and then come home and sit in front of a TV and watch comedians who have probably let bitterness lead them astray use mockery of religion as an act. But to get back to the point its the whole separation of school that gets a lot of people. Sorry if its not the most coherent argument but I felt the need to give my 2 cents.

Not that I endorse Santorum in any way, I think hes one of those people who takes his faith way more seriously than its intended and has also become a bigot due to his misinformation on what the Bible actually says.

 

[SalvIsWin]

Schools have been pressured to completely remove anything involving God from the lessons unless its something to the effect of studying societies in a social studies class.

From the rest of your post, you're implying this is a bad thing. Why should a College preach about God? The school gives the facts about religion and God, which is pretty much: When did the religion begin? How did it affect the people? And shit like that. Why should a school do any more than that? Besides, what Gods would you preach about? The Christian God? The Old Testament God? Allah? What about all the religions in the world, do you preach about them all?

On top of that science is fed to you like it was absolute truth and fact. Only by doing your own research do you realize where the faults lie in some of these "facts" your science teachers seem to be willing to bet their houses on.

Couple points:

• A College teaches the best explanation, as long as there is some evidence to suggest it's the best reason. Example: You could say there are two explanations for the presence of human beings. One explanation is that natural selection occurred via evolution and that over generations and generations via mutations and mutations we have arrived at a point where we have many diverse species, and one of those species is the human being. You could also say that an omnipotent being that we call God is responsible.
  
  There's no evidence that the God explanation is correct other than a collection of ancient writings. On the other hand, there's plenty of evidence for evolution: fossil records, genetic relatedness, etc. The best explanation that we have right now, and the only one that has some evidence to support it is evolution.
• Evolution is often talked about and stated as fact because it's rapidly approaching the point where the breadth of evidence that supports it is becoming staggeringly large.
• To lend more credence to the above point, a lot of religious folk like to make it sound like evolution is a heavily debated or contentious theory - it isn't. Example, ChristianAnswers.net has a list of doctoral creationists here: http://www.christiananswers.net/creation/people/home.html . Not bad, there's about 50-60 names there maybe.
  
  Project Steve is a parody of these lists that religious folk like to make. Project Steve collects scientists that are in favour of evolution with the name Steve. On that list is over 1,100. That's over 1,100 respected scientists in favour of evolution over religious explanation that have the name Steve. When you consider that, there's really no argument, anyone involved in the field knows what's what.

I think if schools taught about human nature, the way people actually function and how the Bible mentions all of it instead of hearing a science teacher say big bang, a social studies teacher refer to Christianity as "that thing those people during that time period in that part of the world believed in when they used to kill non believers", and then come home and sit in front of a TV and watch comedians who have probably let bitterness lead them astray use mockery of religion as an act. But to get back to the point its the whole separation of school that gets a lot of people. Sorry if its not the most coherent argument but I felt the need to give my 2 cents.

I understand what you're saying, but it essentially amounts to: 'Schools don't continually hammer religion into our heads, that's why when kids go off to College they stop having faith.' For one, Rick Santorum's entire point is that not only is religion not being taught in schools, but it's doctrine against religion that's being taught in school. That doesn't make any sense because there's clear mention of God and religions in Colleges, they just don't preach about it - they state the facts instead. The fact is religion has had X, Y, and Z effects because of reasons A, B, and C - that's what we know for sure and there's evidence to show it. If religion could show with evidence anything else, I'm sure they would teach it.

 

[Mustang Sally]

What's the real reason that children lose their faith after higher education?

I don't think it's a question of losing faith when you gain more education, or of losing anything: I believe that education makes it possible for you to gain knowledge and wisdom you didn't have before, while keeping the faith you already possessed. It's a good thing to add to the sum total of what you already have, never a bad thing. You then have more tools and options at your disposal to deal with the world. Colleges aren't looking to undermine faith by not teaching it; they're simply presenting different kinds of knowledge.

It's too bad a person like Santorum has to take a positive experience like higher learning and turn it into a negative, implying that gaining knowledge causes you to lose in other areas. But if the religious right presumes that gaining knowledge means turning away from God, then there are too many problems inherent in the idea to be dealt with in a casual discussion.

 

[ABMorales787]

Woah, woah, woah. I could've sworn I was in a Catholic university last year for my art and computer course. I'm pretty sure there's a Baptist and Adventist college around too. So where did all of this "higher learning kills faith" stuff come from? More importantly, what business do college learning have to do with it? If you wanna learn and stay close to religion, go to a religion-owned college. Yeah, those exist.

The only reason people could lose faith is because surprisingly enough, they lose their faith. It's not rocket science, if there isn't enough in a religion to keep you and you're no longer on a parental leash, walking away ain't that hard at all.

 

[H33LTurn]

From the rest of your post, you're implying this is a bad thing. Why should a College preach about God? The school gives the facts about religion and God, which is pretty much: When did the religion begin? How did it affect the people? And shit like that. Why should a school do any more than that? Besides, what Gods would you preach about? The Christian God? The Old Testament God? Allah? What about all the religions in the world, do you preach about them all?

Well its not a huge deal but I mean there are petty rules out there to make sure that students spend 6 to 8 hours in a building and the last thing that would ever cross their mind is God. I know the law is the law and people have the right to worship whatever they want to worship so schools and church have to be separate but when you're in an environment that stresses passing classes and getting a job over pleasing God, if you spend enough years in that environment pleasing God is obviously going to take a backseat in your priorities list. I'm not placing fault on schools or suggesting that they start teaching religion but I guess it is what it is.

Couple points:

• A College teaches the best explanation, as long as there is some evidence to suggest it's the best reason. Example: You could say there are two explanations for the presence of human beings. One explanation is that natural selection occurred via evolution and that over generations and generations via mutations and mutations we have arrived at a point where we have many diverse species, and one of those species is the human being. You could also say that an omnipotent being that we call God is responsible.
  
  There's no evidence that the God explanation is correct other than a collection of ancient writings. On the other hand, there's plenty of evidence for evolution: fossil records, genetic relatedness, etc. The best explanation that we have right now, and the only one that has some evidence to support it is evolution.
• Evolution is often talked about and stated as fact because it's rapidly approaching the point where the breadth of evidence that supports it is becoming staggeringly large.
• To lend more credence to the above point, a lot of religious folk like to make it sound like evolution is a heavily debated or contentious theory - it isn't. Example, ChristianAnswers.net has a list of doctoral creationists here: http://www.christiananswers.net/creation/people/home.html . Not bad, there's about 50-60 names there maybe.
  
  Project Steve is a parody of these lists that religious folk like to make. Project Steve collects scientists that are in favour of evolution with the name Steve. On that list is over 1,100. That's over 1,100 respected scientists in favour of evolution over religious explanation that have the name Steve. When you consider that, there's really no argument, anyone involved in the field knows what's what.

Well I'm not going to get into the whole evolution v. creationism debate, I'm just saying theres another side of the argument that has been there for a while, not in schools for obvious reasons but unlike the students of today, the students of the past did take the time to asses both sides.

I understand what you're saying, but it essentially amounts to: 'Schools don't continually hammer religion into our heads, that's why when kids go off to College they stop having faith.' For one, Rick Santorum's entire point is that not only is religion not being taught in schools, but it's doctrine against religion that's being taught in school. That doesn't make any sense because there's clear mention of God and religions in Colleges, they just don't preach about it - they state the facts instead. The fact is religion has had X, Y, and Z effects because of reasons A, B, and C - that's what we know for sure and there's evidence to show it. If religion could show with evidence anything else, I'm sure they would teach it.

Lets put things into context. Mr. Santorum is a Christian and by just sitting in one science class in any grade level past elementary education you can clearly see how whats being taught is against basic teachings in Christianity. What Santorum is saying is that students are taking whats being taught, which is contradictory to Christian teachings and taking those lessons as whole truths and not exploring a religious lifestyle.

 

[George Steele's Barber]

My assumption is that the 62% statistic is probably coming from a question that was probably more likely worded like:

"After your college experience, are you less or more religious?". Which provides for nothing more than a useless statistic that doesn't explain much.

Santorum has to pander to his audience and he spins the question and result in to something that creates fear in his supporters. I doubt he really believes what he is saying but it is an effective message to excite his followers.

If you are ever going to get in to this type of discussion with someone, all you need to do is start asking them questions. Ask questions about how and why this happens and what is the rest of the world supposed to do about it. Ask them how they would go to make colleges more faith-friendly. Ask questions about their feelings regarding personal responsibility and how it relates to colleges and universities responsibility toward maintaining young people's religious beliefs.

We spend way too much time talking about who we are and what we know. We don't know shit. I find the easiest way to get people to understand my point of view is by asking tough effective questions about their point of view. You will find that you are not going to convert anyone but you can expose the ignorance to yourself, the person and everyone else.

Go ahead ask me questions about this post and you will soon see how I have no idea what I am talking about or I will bail on the discussion with my tail between my legs. It works.

 

[Davi323]

If anything, going to college deepened my understanding of my faith, because it opened up the questions that church did not answer. I figured out that the Bible tells us why God does things, but that God left the "how" up to us to discover. God created us to be highly intelligent beings, and given that, it stands to reason that God would also want us to explore the wonderful universe he created. If we weren't meant to explore, we wouldn't have been given the tools to explore with. IE, science is as much a tool to understand God as the Bible is. They both just focus on two different aspects, answer different sets of questions. The two are not mutually exclusive, in other words.

I am a Christian, and I believe in the Big Bang. I believe in evolution. I do not feel that believing in either hampers my faith in the slightest. They explain HOW we are here, but do not answer the fundamental question of WHY. My faith in Christ answers WHY we are are, but not HOW. Both reveal God, but in completely different ways, and with different purposes.

Once I figured that out, that I needed both perspectives, my faith grew, not shrank.

 

[Karilas]

If anything, going to college deepened my understanding of my faith, because it opened up the questions that church did not answer. I figured out that the Bible tells us why God does things, but that God left the "how" up to us to discover. God created us to be highly intelligent beings, and given that, it stands to reason that God would also want us to explore the wonderful universe he created. If we weren't meant to explore, we wouldn't have been given the tools to explore with. IE, science is as much a tool to understand God as the Bible is. They both just focus on two different aspects, answer different sets of questions. The two are not mutually exclusive, in other words.

I am a Christian, and I believe in the Big Bang. I believe in evolution. I do not feel that believing in either hampers my faith in the slightest. They explain HOW we are here, but do not answer the fundamental question of WHY. My faith in Christ answers WHY we are are, but not HOW. Both reveal God, but in completely different ways, and with different purposes.

Once I figured that out, that I needed both perspectives, my faith grew, not shrank.

This is probably the best way to reconcile faith with Science, I reckon. I watched the most recent episode of Family Guy tonight and that illustrated a similar point beautifully with a couple who practised faith healing on their Hodgkinson's Lymphoma-addled son [Yeah, Family Guy has been a bit heavy this series]. Personally I lost my faith as a result of Catholic schooling, but that's a different discussion for another time.

The problem here comes from organisations that try to paint Science as a competitor to religion, or that attempt to replace scientific literature with religious scripture, which is basically a ridiculous non-argument that miraculously carries a lot of weight in some parts of the US. Sorry, not sure where I'm going with this, I'm pretty sure I started by applauding your post, then sort of rambled off...

 

[Remix]

Well its not a huge deal but I mean there are petty rules out there to make sure that students spend 6 to 8 hours in a building and the last thing that would ever cross their mind is God.

So you're saying it's common policy for students to do work and focus on it? Well shit I am done with education.

I know the law is the law and people have the right to worship whatever they want to worship so schools and church have to be separate but when you're in an environment that stresses passing classes and getting a job over pleasing God, if you spend enough years in that environment pleasing God is obviously going to take a backseat in your priorities list.

Yeah, things might be different on this side of the pond but at my campus there's an islamic centre and a chaplancy. As well as a couple of cathedrals in town. University doesn't make it impossible to keep your faith. And if it did, then there wouldn't be any office workers in church on Sunday.

I'm not placing fault on schools or suggesting that they start teaching religion but I guess it is what it is.

Good. Because I believe that would be unconstitutional. I'm not 100% on that though.

Well I'm not going to get into the whole evolution v. creationism debate, I'm just saying theres another side of the argument that has been there for a while, not in schools for obvious reasons but unlike the students of today, the students of the past did take the time to asses both sides.

One of my assignments this semester is to critique a published piece of research, write a report on it and present it to a senior lecturer. One of my assignments last semester was to investigate two novel forms of drug delivery. Half of my marks next year will be coming from a research project I will be doing. Shut the fuck up.

As for "investigating both sides" of the Creationism/Evolution debate. There's the theory based on faith, and the theory based on an ever growing mountain of evidence.

Lets put things into context. Mr. Santorum is a Christian and by just sitting in one science class in any grade level past elementary education you can clearly see how whats being taught is against basic teachings in Christianity.

What does the Bible teach about HMG-CoA reductase? 11 million people take drugs that screw with it. They're called statins. Modern medicine is based on the same science that flies in the face of biblical teachings. You can't cherrypick just the bits that don't disagree with your beliefs.

What Santorum is saying is that students are taking whats being taught, which is contradictory to Christian teachings and taking those lessons as whole truths and not exploring a religious lifestyle.

If you don't want to learn about stuff and question what you know then don't go to University. Santorum is speaking utter Santorum on this one (google it).

 

[H33LTurn]

So you're saying it's common policy for students to do work and focus on it? Well shit I am done with education.

Look, school isnt 8 hours of sitting in a room writing notes as a teacher talks. You get opportunities to interact with others, lunch breaks, etc. A lot of people have time at work or at school to let their mind drift or associate with others but the lack of certain christian values and the school environment in general just promote secularism.

Yeah, things might be different on this side of the pond but at my campus there's an islamic centre and a chaplancy. As well as a couple of cathedrals in town. University doesn't make it impossible to keep your faith. And if it did, then there wouldn't be any office workers in church on Sunday.

Well social values are bound to be different in the US and UK but all I'm saying is students are overworked here to the point where half a day is spent worrying about grades and fitting in that they dont sit down and reflect on the aspects of their lives. Universities dont make it impossible, there are a lot of social factors that contribute to the loss of faith in our society, I'm just saying these days education has become more of a burden than a virtue in students' lives, limiting the time and desire they have for pursuing an understanding of God (its not just as easy as saying, "yeah I believe in God" then walking away).

Good. Because I believe that would be unconstitutional. I'm not 100% on that though.

Glad we agree.

One of my assignments this semester is to critique a published piece of research, write a report on it and present it to a senior lecturer. One of my assignments last semester was to investigate two novel forms of drug delivery. Half of my marks next year will be coming from a research project I will be doing. Shut the fuck up.

As for "investigating both sides" of the Creationism/Evolution debate. There's the theory based on faith, and the theory based on an ever growing mountain of evidence.

Oh man, you told me to STFU, I'm sooo scared. This argument was so civilized before you came along. Your examples have nothing to do on the topic of creationism v. evolution. You're just naming random things that have two sides. I never said schools dont compare and contrast thing, I'm just saying they turn a blind eye to this issue.

What does the Bible teach about HMG-CoA reductase? 11 million people take drugs that screw with it. They're called statins. Modern medicine is based on the same science that flies in the face of biblical teachings. You can't cherrypick just the bits that don't disagree with your beliefs.

That didnt make a lick of sense. I suggest that you put down the blunt before you misinterpret more of the things I've said. The big bang and evolution are just examples that are against basic Christian teachings and part of the education system in the US.

If you don't want to learn about stuff and question what you know then don't go to University. Santorum is speaking utter Santorum on this one (google it).

Are you a child? What an utterly ridiculous suggestion, to recomend that I lose a chunk of education over this issue. If I dont go to University it becomes incredibly difficult to find a job in my country. I'm just saying teachers should be a bit more sensitive to the beliefs of students and stress the fact that no matter how much piling "evidence" there is for a topic it still stands as a theory.

 

[Slyfox696]

Rick Santorum: "62% of children who enter College with a faith conviction leave without it."

Then it sounds as if Universities are doing what they are supposed to. People with an advanced education SHOULDN'T buy into the idea of religion as there is NOTHING to support the idea of religion. Santorum is an idiot. But we've always known that.

Schools have been pressured to completely remove anything involving God from the lessons unless its something to the effect of studying societies in a social studies class.

Which is the way it ought to be. College should be about a place free from religious restraints, especially since colleges serve students of all different types of religion.

On top of that science is fed to you like it was absolute truth and fact.

Completely false. Anyone with even a shred of honesty in the field of science will tell you that NOTHING is absolute truth and fact, but rather instead completely theory. Hell, most scientists are PROUD to proclaim that.

The American educational system teaches students how to be obedient workers.

It depends entirely on the institution and the teacher. It also depends on the subject matter and the age of the student.

What class is teaching you to be a responsible citizen, a good neighbor, a faithful husband/wife, and a righteous God fearing person? Theres no class thats telling you to keep the faith.

And there shouldn't be. Education should be religion free, because there are many different types of religion in this country. Teaching one over the other would be an ENORMOUS sign of disrespect.

I think if schools taught about human nature, the way people actually function and how the Bible mentions all of it instead of hearing a science teacher say big bang, a social studies teacher refer to Christianity as "that thing those people during that time period in that part of the world believed in when they used to kill non believers", and then come home and sit in front of a TV and watch comedians who have probably let bitterness lead them astray use mockery of religion as an act. But to get back to the point its the whole separation of school that gets a lot of people. Sorry if its not the most coherent argument but I felt the need to give my 2 cents.

You did, and you made yourself look silly. You can teach good values, honesty, integrity, etc. without teaching the Bible. In fact, the Bible is FULL of stories which are the exact OPPOSITE of those values.

It's too bad a person like Santorum has to take a positive experience like higher learning and turn it into a negative

He's a Republican, what else would you expect from a Republican in the area of public education? The less educated American citizens are, the less likely they're to take the wealth from those who currently have it.

You don't think Republicans preach privatized education to save money, do you?

I'm just saying teachers should be a bit more sensitive to the beliefs of students and stress the fact that no matter how much piling "evidence" there is for a topic it still stands as a theory.

Most educators DO present evolution as a theory. What they DON'T do is present creationism as a theory, because it does not satisfy the requirements to be called a theory.

 

[H33LTurn]

Which is the way it ought to be. College should be about a place free from religious restraints, especially since colleges serve students of all different types of religion.

I agree, I'm just saying its a factor to some.

Completely false. Anyone with even a shred of honesty in the field of science will tell you that NOTHING is absolute truth and fact, but rather instead completely theory. Hell, most scientists are PROUD to proclaim that.

I wish I would run into more scientists like that. Well maybe I'm running into "so called scientists" but I'm speaking of the ones I have encountered personally.

It depends entirely on the institution and the teacher. It also depends on the subject matter and the age of the student.

I'm just saying theres very little room for question when it comes to our current system of education.

And there shouldn't be. Education should be religion free, because there are many different types of religion in this country. Teaching one over the other would be an ENORMOUS sign of disrespect.

Again, I agree, there shouldnt be. But the lifestyles of students these days are dumbed down so much that if its not taught in a school or part of a popular TV show whatever topic it may be is not discussed. Parents arent raaising their kids to be religious either so its not entirely the school system's fault but I'll discuss this further later on.

You did, and you made yourself look silly. You can teach good values, honesty, integrity, etc. without teaching the Bible. In fact, the Bible is FULL of stories which are the exact OPPOSITE of those values.

I'm not saying that you cant teach good values without teaching the Bible, I'm just saying theres no instructor out there to combat our society's misinterpretation of the Bible. An example is what you just said about the Bible going against its own values. Put into context those stories form a coherent belief system that current (or at least should currently) frown upon some of the things that were once considered good. Its hard to explain but on to the point. I think high school and college students are old enough to decide if they want to take a course in relgion and learn more about whatever belief system intrigues them. You know, learn more than what your average geography class offers. Its offering young adults a chance to fully understand the complexities of their chosen belief systems before going out there and bashing gays or wrapping yourself in the Torah (did you see that Eddy Long crap lol) in "the name of God".

Most educators DO present evolution as a theory. What they DON'T do is present creationism as a theory, because it does not satisfy the requirements to be called a theory.

Then I am satisfied. But the word "most" there isnt a fact. There are some out there that dont present it as a theory and thats where the problems lie.

 

[TWJC: The Beginning]

People lose their faith because college exposes them to other viewpoints and makes them think more in "gray" and less in "black and white". It forces them to become more tolerant and to see other viewpoints. You aren't in your safe little comfort zone with a bunch of other people who look like you, believe what you believe, and have your same life experiences. You learn more.

Yes, I agree with him that people "lose their faith" (or become more open minded, whatever). I think it's a good thing. It's fuckin stupid to think that everyone should believe in the same thing their whole life and not be challenged. Then again, there was a study that showed conservatives have a larger amygdala than other people and thus, are more fearful (and aware of threats on the plus side). So I can see why he's so afraid of change. The study was done by New York University and UCLA I wanna say.

Bottom line is, I'm a Christian, I'm going to graduate college in about a year. I'm not "less" of a Christian than before, but I'm a lot more tolerant. When you go to college and take religion courses, you realize how much bullshit you've been fed by your uneducated preachers. You start to question things, then you realize how stupid it would be if God said "well, you were an awesome person, but you didn't claim to be Christian, you're going to hell" you realize that sounds more like something a politician would say (the Church was politics for a while) and realize that a lot of it is a scam to get money.

Of course, you also learn to reason why you have faith. You aren't an idiot (because you realize it's not black and white) and you conclude that both science and God can exist, they aren't mutually exclusive. You learn that the Hebrew word that's translated to "Day" can mean "24 hours" or "an era". So the earth as we know it could have been created in 7 eras and not seven 24 hour days. You aren't a sheep like most organized religion falsly wants you to be. You are a powerful agent using the brain God gave you to reason and discover for yourself what YOU truly believe and not what someone else wants you to believe.

In other words, college forces you to have better reasoning skills and you're not so much of a close minded, arrogant, self righteous ass. It's not a bad thing....unless you're afraid of change and people who are different than you.

 

[Larry]

There are two defined sides of this argument and I think both have their valid points. I don't think there should be or is any question that society in general is being pushed in a more secular direction, some of which IS aided by educational institutions. You can't tell me that there aren't professors out there trying to beat the Jesus out of people with secular indoctrination. It is continually discouraged in society and both directly and indirectly in educational institutions to hold your religious beliefs(Christianity specifically), numerous examples are right here in this thread. I personally DO feel that science and religion are two sides of the same coin, one explaining why and one explaining how. But, to try and act as though there is no attack on Christianity from all angles in society is both naive and dishonest. No group of people are as mocked, ridiculed, oppressed for their beliefs, and disrespected as Christians in modern day society, largely because of these people who come out of these colleges so "enlightened" who think of it as a joke and a bunch of tall tales. They mock the religion and anyone who takes faith in it just as some of you here have, like you'd have to be some lower thinking, stupid person to believe any of that. That's not the case, you just have to be a bit stronger of a person and have some faith which is clearly harder to do than people want to admit, and deserves a little more respect than it is granted. You don't hear them saying that shit about Islam or any other religion either, there is just a special hatred for Christianity.

I think it has to do with the fact that it requires a greater deal of moral responsibility and personal accountability for your own actions, and people don't like the idea of a God that they will eventually have to answer to. It's like a bunch of rebellious children acting out against the authority figure who seem to think if they convince themselves it's all a hoax they will be immune from the realities of it all. People don't want to have to look at themselves and their actions and acknowledge them as being sinful or against the will of God, and they don't want to even acknowledge God because that would in turn make them accountable for their sins. People today don't want to believe that after they physically die there could be consequences for their actions here on Earth, and that they might have to pay those consequences for their disobedience. I think it's a reflection of a morally decayed and spiritually weak society, or at least sects of it.

And, listen to yourselves. Those of you who think this "higher learning" equals some kind of enlightenment from religion. Boy oh boy doesn't that just sound like the serpent in the garden of Eden convincing Eve to eat from the tree of knowledge, to be more like God, to be as wise as God as so on. Sounds like Lucifer in the Quran as well refusing to bow before man at Allah's demand to all the angels, you think you are above man, that your knowledge makes you composed of fire like Lucifer, while the rest of us are simply soil. Fools. We may have the intelligence and the tools to get some clue about how things came to be and how the world evolved, but this arrogance to believe that the other teachings of Christianity are for the uneducated or for people that are beneath you or less intelligent than you is so wildly flawed and disrespectful. Christianity as well as many other religions and the values they teach are the cornerstones of leading good, moral, clean, and peaceful lives. If everyone did as Christ had instructed and if everyone simply obeyed, we would be free of many of the problems we face today in society, most of which if not almost all of which originate from the choice to simply disobey the word of God. There is no excuse for it, there is no explanation good enough for you or I to give for it. You think you are so wise, so smart, so enlightened. Knowledge has become your God, and you seem to think that you do not need God in any way or that there is nothing God has, can, or does give you. That simply shows me how dumb YOU are, and how little knowledge you really have.

 

[Slyfox696]

There are two defined sides of this argument and I think both have their valid points. I don't think there should be or is any question that society in general is being pushed in a more secular direction, some of which IS aided by educational institutions. You can't tell me that there aren't professors out there trying to beat the Jesus out of people with secular indoctrination. It is continually discouraged in society and both directly and indirectly in educational institutions to hold your religious beliefs(Christianity specifically), numerous examples are right here in this thread. I personally DO feel that science and religion are two sides of the same coin, one explaining why and one explaining how.

All of this is reasonable. I wish you had stopped here.

But, to try and act as though there is no attack on Christianity from all angles in society is both naive and dishonest.

And yet, the attack on Christianity is completely fair, considering the thousands of years people suffered in the other direction.

No group of people are as mocked, ridiculed, oppressed for their beliefs, and disrespected as Christians in modern day society, largely because of these people who come out of these colleges so "enlightened" who think of it as a joke and a bunch of tall tales.

What else would you call it?

The Christian religion is no different than all the other religions the world has seen. It is stories and myths which are created to explain why the world works the way it does, and is used as a political and moneymaking tool. This is religion. It doesn't matter what religion, they all fall into the same category.

As someone who claims to be a Christian, surely you know that most of your religious stories, beliefs, and customs do not originate at all with Christianity, correct?

They mock the religion and anyone who takes faith in it just as some of you here have, like you'd have to be some lower thinking, stupid person to believe any of that.

Well...

There's nothing wrong with believing in a religion. The problem I have is when you try to tell us your religion is superior to another religion, or no religion in general. The attacks Christianity faces today is nothing more than blowback from the centuries of attacks Christians have laid on others.

You don't hear them saying that shit about Islam or any other religion either, there is just a special hatred for Christianity.

You...you're joking right? People are KILLED in this country for simply LOOKING Muslim. I would advise you to reconsider your comment here.

People don't want to have to look at themselves and their actions and acknowledge them as being sinful or against the will of God, and they don't want to even acknowledge God because that would in turn make them accountable for their sins.

Or maybe they simply don't believe the stories in your 2000 year old book written by men who were greedy liars intent on keeping women subservient and punishing anyone who didn't believe and behave exactly like them?

People today don't want to believe that after they physically die there could be consequences for their actions here on Earth, and that they might have to pay those consequences for their disobedience. I think it's a reflection of a morally decayed and spiritually weak society, or at least sects of it.

That's not it at all.

What we don't believe is that Christians know what the heck they are talking about. Catholics are required to not eat meat during Lent and eat fish on Fridays. Why? Because a pope in the 13th or 14th century owned a large fishing company and this made him huge profits. Christians don't believe in contraception, which is simply asinine given the number of single parents and STDS which exist. Christians believe that a woman should be submissive to her man, and never his equal. Christians believe homosexuals should be scorned and killed. Christians believe anyone who doesn't believe the way they do deserve to be destroyed in war.

These are all facts about Christians. FACTS, not beliefs. You can find all of these in your search of Christian history, and a ton more evil things which were wrought by Christianity. When we go to our higher education schools, we learn these facts. We are taught the ability to think for ourselves whether these actions are right or wrong. So many Christians believe in their religion simply because that's what they've been told their entire lives to believe, never once questioning why or the evil things the faith has done. If you are presented with all the facts and you are armed with the ability to think rationally and logically and for yourself, and you still choose Christianity after soul-searching and after everything you know about Christian history, then fair enough. You've made the CHOICE to be a Christian.

But most people never make the choice, they simply do as they're told, like sheep being led to the pasture.

And, listen to yourselves. Those of you who think this "higher learning" equals some kind of enlightenment from religion.

It's not an enlightenment from religion, it's enlightenment from mental slavery.

From the moment I was born, I was indoctrinated into the Catholic religion. I was baptised shortly after I was born. I went to Sunday School classes when I was 4. I had my first reconciliation when I was in second grade, where I was supposed to tell the priest how I was a bad person and hope God would save me (surely you can see how the slavery is being formed). I took my first communion in second grade as well, where I ate the body and drank the blood of Christ, with the understanding this would make me stronger as a person.

And so it continued. Until I was a senior in high school, and my Sunday school teacher brought in a pamphlet which had been produced by the Baptist church in the same town as the Catholic church I went to. Let's be clear, I was hardly the most religious person. I hated going to Church, and I skipped out on Sunday school classes, even during my Confirmation process during my sophomore year in high school, but when our teacher read this pamphlet to us, it was an epiphany. This pamphlet was of a Catholic police officer who had been shot and his buddy was visiting him in the hospital. Long story short, the story basically went that the Catholic officer who was shot was going to hell, unless he converted to the Baptist religion. This is a true story, and the moment I realized religion isn't nearly all it's cracked up to be. Then I had a class in college about mythology, and I discovered many stories which share the same storylines as many famous Bible stories, except these stories came long before the Bible. We also had to write a paper on the pagan origins of Christmas and Easter, and it was from there I realized just how silly it is to belong to a religion. At that moment, I was free from religious slavery.

I still choose to believe there is a divine presence, but I don't do it as a Christian, I do it as an individual thinker, a person who can look at logic and facts and understand religion only gets in the way of spirituality. Thus I have little tolerance for Christians who try to force their archaic beliefs onto others, and then act offended when the same is done to them.

Boy oh boy doesn't that just sound like the serpent in the garden of Eden convincing Eve to eat from the tree of knowledge, to be more like God, to be as wise as God as so on. Sounds like Lucifer in the Quran as well refusing to bow before man at Allah's demand to all the angels, you think you are above man, that your knowledge makes you composed of fire like Lucifer, while the rest of us are simply soil. Fools.

No, it sounds like people who understand the flood to which Christians attach the hero Noah is a story which had been told for thousands of years by other pagan religions. It sounds like people who understand Christians basically stole the idea of Christmas in order to assimilate other cultures. It sounds like people who understand all people should be treated equally for who they are, regardless of their skin color, sexual preference or gender.

That's what it sounds like.

Christianity as well as many other religions and the values they teach are the cornerstones of leading good, moral, clean, and peaceful lives.

Agreed. No doubt about it.

But that doesn't HAVE to be taught in a religious setting. Those things were taught in a religious setting to control people, to continue to make money off of them, to give them a reason to continue making money for those in power.

You can still teach good values and not live as a Christian or in any other religion.

If everyone did as Christ had instructed and if everyone simply obeyed, we would be free of many of the problems we face today in society, most of which if not almost all of which originate from the choice to simply disobey the word of God.

Really? So when homosexuals are actively hunted down and tortured and killed because that's what God says, that's not a problem in society? When cult leaders take 14 year girls as their wives and have babies with them because God says sex should be for procreation, that's not a problem?

I would argue there are just as many problems from living the way God tells us to as there are otherwise.

Knowledge has become your God

And that's the way it should be. Knowledge should be what you base your decision on what to believe. Anyone who refuses knowledge is condemning themselves to be slaves of a religious institution. I pity those slaves.

 

[Shotaro]

I agree with Slyfox. The pursuit of knowledge is far nobler than the pursuit of religion. Think of the world we live in now and imagine what would have happened if science had not won out over religion. We would likely still think of the world as being flat. Education is fueling science, people are now more educated and are being taught to question "facts" because it leads to progress, questioning religion is a natural extension of that. There will always be people with belief, but soon those who blindly follow religious texts of any kind without belief will stop following them.

Religion is not redundant, just far less important than it used to be.

 

[Larry]

I spent a lot of time on this so please take the time and have the courtesy to at least read it.

And yet, the attack on Christianity is completely fair, considering the thousands of years people suffered in the other direction.

How can you seriously sit there and justify attacking Christianity? No one ever said that Christianity has been without it's faults over time as it pertains to who has suffered at the hands of it, however that is not an adequate justification for what we see today running rampant across the U.S. People seem to forget that settlers came here to escape religious persecution, and that it was Christianity that this country was founded on. If there is any religion that should be free from the attacks you promote it is Christianity. This is not to say that people shouldn't be able to not be Christian, oppose it, or question it. But, there is a fine line between those things and the outright rape of the religion that we are seeing today in society.

What else would you call it?

The Christian religion is no different than all the other religions the world has seen. It is stories and myths which are created to explain why the world works the way it does, and is used as a political and moneymaking tool. This is religion. It doesn't matter what religion, they all fall into the same category.

As someone who claims to be a Christian, surely you know that most of your religious stories, beliefs, and customs do not originate at all with Christianity, correct?

I beg to differ, Christianity is quite a bit different than the other religions the world has seen. First of all, in no other major religion is the key prophet or savior also sacrificed/martyred for the sins of the people, the son of God, or an actual person that existed as Christ can be historically proven to have. Also, Christianity stood out as a monotheistic religion and at it's time of origin, aside from the only other Abrahamic religion at the time of Christ, Judaism.

I doubt you've ever heard of it, and yes I do know my history, but there was a religion practiced in Rome pre-dating Christianity called Mithraism that some believe to have been a "competitor" to Christianity around 2 A.D. It was a form of Grecco-Roman Paganism and the origins of the date for the birth of Christ. Most know it came from paganism but not "where from" within paganism as it was rather broad. It was the celebratory date of the birth of the sun according to this mythological religion. That date "was chosen to be held holy not like the pagans "because of the birth of the sun" but for he who made it", and that is documented from 320 A.D. This is a big difference between a lot of the ancient religions and Christianity as well. Most of them were literally just made up, they just made up Gods and made up practices based in nothing. Christianity is obviously centered around an actual person believed to be the son of God, the savior of man, and based on the teachings of said person who was not just supposed to be the son of God but God himself in essence as well.

While religion has been manipulated in the past as a political and money making tool, that is not the fault of the religion itself of it's teachings. These things come from the folly of man, and mans corruption OF religion. If I remember keenly it's made pretty clear in The Holy Bible that false prophets and those who spread the word of God solely for monetary gain are frowned upon by the Lord and face heavy punishment for corrupting the Lords' word, so where you get this notion that religion itself or Christianity specifically is what you say it is-is kind of baffling.

Mat 24:3-5,10-11 (NIV) ..."Tell us," they said, "when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?" Jesus answered, "Watch out that no one deceives you, for many will come in my name,.. At that time many will turn away from the faith... and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people."

Jer 23:21-22 (NIV) "I did not send these prophets, yet they have run with their message; I did not speak to them, yet they have prophesied. But if they had stood in my council, they would have proclaimed my words to my people and would have turned them from their evil ways and from their evil deeds."

Jer 8:6-9 (NIV) "I have listened attentively, but they do not say what is right. No one repents of his wickedness, saying, 'What have I done?'.. My people do not know the requirements of the Lord. How can you say, 'We are wise...' Since they have rejected the word of the Lord, what kind of wisdom do they have?"

Jer 14:14 (NIV) "The prophets are prophesying lies in my name. I have not sent them or appointed them or spoken to them. They are prophesying to you false visions, divinations, idolatries, and the delusion of their own minds."

Eph 4:14-15 (Jer) Then we shall not be children any longer, or tossed one way and another and carried along by every wind of doctrine, at the mercy of all the tricks men play and their cleverness in practicing deceit. If we live by the truth and in love, we shall grow in all ways into Christ, who is the head.

Well...

There's nothing wrong with believing in a religion. The problem I have is when you try to tell us your religion is superior to another religion, or no religion in general. The attacks Christianity faces today is nothing more than blowback from the centuries of attacks Christians have laid on others.

Again you try to justify this attack on Christianity. At least you didn't try to be so bold as to deny that it is a reality of society. It's been getting worse and worse since the turn of the last century with Darwinism, Atheism, and later Secularism. I'd also like to ask what blowback Christianity has earned here in the short existence of the Unites States? Okay, homosexuals have a legit gripe, but they are also in direct contradiction of something laid out very clearly in the Bible as an abomination. With the advancement of science and research into the homosexual lifestyle and trends within the homosexual community there are far more reasons beyond strictly religious beliefs to oppose is as well. The health risks alone, susceptibility to mental illness and pre existing mental illness in many, the heightened risk of rape from other homosexuals, increased risk and susceptibility to drug and alcohol addiction, suicide rates, etc.... all point to an inevitable fact that there is not just something but a lot wrong with it and you can't just try to blame that shit on "the oppression of society". Society doesn't make them BE gay, make them do the things they do, and is not responsible for their actions.

Other than that who can complain about "the oppression of Christianity" in America. Certainly not women. Nowhere in The Bible has it ever said to make sure women can't vote, or work, or that they are not equal to men. As a matter of fact at the very beginning God states that it was not good for man to be alone so he decided to make him a partner, not a superior or a subservient. Also, if you are following the teachings of Christ any mistreatment of women doesn't line up with that at all anyways. You can say that man has used religion to justify injustices through twisted interpretations, but that is not the fault of the religion itself, once again that is the flaw of man.

It is obvious that within The Bible, man interjected some of his own agenda through history, but today we can clearly see where this took place and look past it. Most of the stuff people criticize in The Bible comes from the early Old Testament, but the whole purpose of Christ being sent here by God was to help man get it right where we had got it so horrible wrong, and to clarify the message of God as is explained and displayed in The Bible as well. The point there being that the Old Testament is not to be taken as the law of man in its entirety as it is an example of how flawed man was in delivering the word of God to the people, and as mentioned, serving his own agenda in doing so.

You...you're joking right? People are KILLED in this country for simply LOOKING Muslim. I would advise you to reconsider your comment here.

I call bullshit. That is a gross exaggeration. When Muslim kids get special privileges in schools to leave class so they can bow to Mecca and pray, yet it is disallowed for Christians to have prayer in school, that is far from the picture you paint. When Christmas is turned into a holiday of consumerism and the observance of it's true meaning is discouraged in every way possible what would you call it? When Christians are treated with such intolerance, made to compromise their beliefs or completely ignore them by secular society, while you can't say a damn thing against Islam or Judaism without either being Anti-Muslim even though the Quran DOES teach that killing people is okay(I read it myself last night) or Anti-Semetic if you simply don't agree with Judaism, and are made to sit down, shut up, and just let the rest of the country trample all over your beliefs, the beliefs and religion this country WAS founded on, and whose values shaped our constitution and bill or rights, YEAH I'd say there is a problem.

No one is trying to force anyone to BE Christians, but America always has been a Christian nation, and Christianity has always been the religion OF the nation. Many of our traditions, our values, our way of life, and as I mentioned before even our Constitution and Bill of Rights are based in it. It's not right for people to come to this country and expect that we change everything about it, and change what this country is, what is was founded on, the values of this nation, or to tolerate the mistreatment of the Christian community because they believe in something else, or don't like Christianity.

Guess what, if one of us were to go to Iran or Saudi Arabia I can guarantee they sure as shit aren't going to change anything about their religion and the role of that religion in their society to accommodate us no matter how much we disliked it or disagreed. So why should we as Americans be forced to do just that for everyone else? No one is saying you can't be Muslim, or Buddhist, or Jewish, or anything else, but we sure as hell aren't going to stop being Christians, championing our beliefs, and upholding them within our society because other people don't like it and want us to change to cater to them. That's just not how it works and it's not right to us.

Or maybe they simply don't believe the stories in your 2000 year old book written by men who were greedy liars intent on keeping women subservient and punishing anyone who didn't believe and behave exactly like them?

In "My" 2000 year old book? Yeah, I love how you put that. I already covered your allegations about the writers of the Bible and the issues on women so you can refer back to that on this one. Although there may have been some truth to what you are saying here at one time, in modern society it has nothing to do with "Punishing anyone who doesn't believe and behave exactly like we do" or keeping women subservient in any way. Anyone doing anything of the sort is twisting it around and acting on their own impulses and biases, not anything they were actually taught from the Bible.

That's not it at all.

What we don't believe is that Christians know what the heck they are talking about. Catholics are required to not eat meat during Lent and eat fish on Fridays. Why? Because a pope in the 13th or 14th century owned a large fishing company and this made him huge profits. Christians don't believe in contraception, which is simply asinine given the number of single parents and STDS which exist. Christians believe that a woman should be submissive to her man, and never his equal. Christians believe homosexuals should be scorned and killed. Christians believe anyone who doesn't believe the way they do deserve to be destroyed in war.

Lies, Lies, Lies, Lies. I am well aware that there are folks out there who do reflect those beliefs you mentioned, but that's not what Christianity itself teaches anyone. Again, that is an example of people taking shit out of context, twisting the word of God, or using it to serve their own agenda in some other way. Catholics, specifically do not believe in contraception for a number of reasons that I am sure I don't need to explain to you as you were raised Catholic. However, did it ever occur to you that part of the reason behind that was to try and promote abstinence until marriage which would obvious have a positive effect on society as whole, or to try and make people be more responsible in marriage not to have too many kids and in turn have to raise those kids in poverty because they have too many? This would also help reduce the number of children and families raised on the government dollar which in turn comes from you and me, and in turn also helps the economy and society as whole. You still object though right? Damn that personal responsibility.

Not all Christians or even a majority believe that women should be submissive to their husbands either, that is a rather out-dated belief that most today see well past. Those that observe it though, do so of their own free will just as they can reject it of their own free will.

And as for homosexuals...Here we go again. Okay, In Leviticus 18:22 it says "A man is not to lie with another man as one lies with a women, it is an abomination, and Leviticus 20:13 says "If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads." and this is where people like you get this ammunition. However you forget that in the New Testament it is Jesus' teaching that "whoever is without sin may cast the first stone" and that was in reference to a sexual act of adultery even. Since we are all sinners Jesus makes it pretty clear to us that we are in fact NOT to do anything like that, and that's just ONE of Christs teachings that tell us not to treat anyone like that, of the many teachings the promote people treating each other with love, compassion, respect, and leaving any punishment we have coming for our actions up to God the father to take out on us if indeed we never repent or as for forgiveness for our sins WHICH we are guaranteed through the sacrifice of Christ who died on the cross so that we could be forgiven.

These are all facts about Christians. FACTS, not beliefs. You can find all of these in your search of Christian history, and a ton more evil things which were wrought by Christianity. When we go to our higher education schools, we learn these facts. We are taught the ability to think for ourselves whether these actions are right or wrong. So many Christians believe in their religion simply because that's what they've been told their entire lives to believe, never once questioning why or the evil things the faith has done. If you are presented with all the facts and you are armed with the ability to think rationally and logically and for yourself, and you still choose Christianity after soul-searching and after everything you know about Christian history, then fair enough. You've made the CHOICE to be a Christian.

But most people never make the choice, they simply do as they're told, like sheep being led to the pasture.

If with all your education, facts, and ability to think for yourself rationally and logically but you can't see that these things that occurred in history were actions of MAN not the religion itself than I would ask for a refund on my education, or take a deep look at myself and ask why this hatred for Christianity is in me, and why I was foolish and naive enough to allow someone to bring me to this misguided understanding. None of your "Facts" are about "Christianity" per-say, they are about the horrible things people have done in the name of Christianity and there is a big difference. No one is questioning whether the actions of Popes past or other members of Christianity were wrong, we know they were, but you can't or at least shouldn't go and condemn the whole religion because of that, or compromise your own faith because secularists in educational institutions have done such a fine job of painting the religion itself as this inhuman evil monster that you seem to be convinced it is.

I find it funny as well that you don't see folks like yourself as being the exact same as those you call sheep being led to pasture. You are being led out to pasture just the same doing exactly as society, and your beloved institutions are telling you, taking this twisted view of the religion, melding together the flaws and acts of man and the religion itself as if the religion is responsible for the actions of the people who did these horrible things in the past and who continue to do horrible things today. Those people are often times extremists, or complete wack jobs, or people who simply never had anything explained to them the right way.

It's not an enlightenment from religion, it's enlightenment from mental slavery.

Religion isn't mental slavery. If you take the time to understand the meaning behind the teachings, many of them rather common sense are obvious if you are paying attention, you see that it is actually very freeing. Answer me this, if you are following the 10 commandments lets say, you are living your life a Jesus has instructed, how are you not free? You have the freedom to make your own choices anyways so this notion of slavery is rather ill-conceived, but either way, how is one a slave if they simply obey? It free's you from all kinds of worries that leading a moral and decent life affords you, keeps you out of all kinds of trouble, and tries to guide you on a righteous path in life to lead you on a road to heaven. What is not freeing about that? It's almost the same as obeying the laws of the city you live in, are you a slave by obeying the laws? No, and if you do you have little to nothing to worry about, you aren't going to get in trouble because you've done nothing wrong which allows you to be free. In religion obedience allows you to be free from vices, sin, and numerous miseries that come from disobeying the word of God and making serious mistakes in life that one often pays for long term.

From the moment I was born, I was indoctrinated into the Catholic religion. I was baptised shortly after I was born. I went to Sunday School classes when I was 4. I had my first reconciliation when I was in second grade, where I was supposed to tell the priest how I was a bad person and hope God would save me (surely you can see how the slavery is being formed). I took my first communion in second grade as well, where I ate the body and drank the blood of Christ, with the understanding this would make me stronger as a person.

You should only be so glad you had a family that cared about you enough to try and see to it that you were taught these morals and values, and that religion was a cornerstone of your life.

And so it continued. Until I was a senior in high school, and my Sunday school teacher brought in a pamphlet which had been produced by the Baptist church in the same town as the Catholic church I went to. Let's be clear, I was hardly the most religious person. I hated going to Church, and I skipped out on Sunday school classes, even during my Confirmation process during my sophomore year in high school, but when our teacher read this pamphlet to us, it was an epiphany. This pamphlet was of a Catholic police officer who had been shot and his buddy was visiting him in the hospital. Long story short, the story basically went that the Catholic officer who was shot was going to hell, unless he converted to the Baptist religion.

With all that involvement and education in Christianity I am surprised that you would even take that seriously. Obviously that was a horrible thing for that Baptist to say. You should have clearly known better than that, and that such a thing was not true, that the person who tried to say the man was going to hell unless he converted to being a baptist was ignorant of the very faith he was preaching.

This really just saddens me, this story of yours and how it effected you. But, notice this pivotal point in your life, and the source of the information that ultimately turned you away. It was a teacher, someone who you were to trust with your mind and you did, and look what they did with it. They brought forth something to turn you away from your religion. Although you might not have been big on it before, and what kid really is, you were still involved in it and it was obviously still a big part of your life. I am very sorry for you, because I know what they feels like and how shattering it can be. This is one of the main causes I see in people turning away from religion, in some way they feel let down, or lied to when they see things like this Baptist doing what he did. I would urge you to get back into it and do some soul searching, try to find your faith again, and rather than depending on someone else to tell you what it's all about, discovering it for yourself, truly. All the negativity that you have been exposed to and that we get put in our faces all the time is not the true face of Christianity or Catholicism or religion in general and I think somewhere deep down you know that, but it is hard to stand by religion in these modern times when so many discourage it and treat religious people so poorly. I can't blame you for not wanting that persecution and turning away.

This is a true story, and the moment I realized religion isn't nearly all it's cracked up to be. Then I had a class in college about mythology, and I discovered many stories which share the same storylines as many famous Bible stories, except these stories came long before the Bible. We also had to write a paper on the pagan origins of Christmas and Easter, and it was from there I realized just how silly it is to belong to a religion. At that moment, I was free from religious slavery.

Naaw man, it's not silly to belong to a religion. I am sure people made you feel that way, I have been made to feel that way before and it is not a good feeling, but don't let that or doubts that get raised in your mind led you astray. Ya know the thing about those stories, it's not about where they came from, it's about what they taught in them. Why else do you think they were put in The Bible? Because they taught a good lesson somewhere. That should not necessarily tell you or have to mean that your faith in any less valid, as a matter of fact it should validate it for you as it shows you the wisdom that your religion saw in other religions and these stories and felt prudent to teach life and religious lessons to it's followers. The teachings of Christ stand alone as well beyond that, and are what we should really always focus on as it pertains to where our Christian faith is based. I weren't freed from any kind of religious slavery, you were tricked into denying your religion. That may have felt very freeing because once someone was able to convince you that it was all hokum and folklore it meant that you were no longer accountable for your sins since it was all just "make-believe" and you no longer felt like you had to harbor a fear of God or consequences, but you were never a slave to religion, and you were never deceived by religion. You may have been deceived by people who taught it to you, but that is once again, MAN not GOD or Religion.

I still choose to believe there is a divine presence, but I don't do it as a Christian, I do it as an individual thinker, a person who can look at logic and facts and understand religion only gets in the way of spirituality. Thus I have little tolerance for Christians who try to force their archaic beliefs onto others, and then act offended when the same is done to them.

Well what do ya know, we have something in common. I know this whole time you've thought I am a self recognized "Christian" in the most stereotypical sense but I am not. I do not identify myself as a Christian in the sense that many do today. I do agree with the teachings of Christ, so in that sense you may call me a Christian, but I also agree with a lot of teachings from Taoism and Buddhism, Islam, Judaism, and then some. I too came to the conclusion myself that "Organized Religion" not necessarily DOES but CAN get in the way of spirituality, and for me that was the case. I was never a Church person and I never felt comfortable there with the people I was surrounded with. Like you I was also raised in the Church most of my life, but I received more of my teaching at home from my mom and dad than anywhere else. My dad was raised a Roman-Catholic and my mom a Protestant of no denomination. I was taught that church is wherever two or more are gathered for the purpose of learning about God, not a building. I was also taught as Jesus said "If I am for you, who can be against you", and that "Righteous men of all religions shall inherit the kingdom of heaven", that LOVE is the true spirit of God, etc.... I was never taught any of the radical stuff you mentioned.

I never trusted the church and found out early that in modern society it amounted to nothing but a social contest of "Holier than thou art" and it was a place where God was the last person doing the judging, it was everyone else who judged you if you didn't have a nice suit to wear every week or really nice clothes in general, who looked down on you for not being as into the whole social aspect of it as they were(even at a very young age at church I was there to learn about God, not to socialize and be popular with people), and I also wasn't willing to let someone else TELL ME what The Bible meant, I wanted to learn myself and I simply wanted a bit of a guide for the way, while some others wanted to try and teach me what they wanted to teach, not what was simply in there, So I definitely have seen the dark side of it and know exactly what you are talking about through this whole thing. Still, for many people church is a great thing and they need it, it helps them get through their lives and through troubled times and for that I can not condemn it either, I just know it's not for me.

No, it sounds like people who understand the flood to which Christians attach the hero Noah is a story which had been told for thousands of years by other pagan religions. It sounds like people who understand Christians basically stole the idea of Christmas in order to assimilate other cultures. It sounds like people who understand all people should be treated equally for who they are, regardless of their skin color, sexual preference or gender.

That's what it sounds like.

But the story of Noah and the Ark teaches something nonetheless does it not? That is the whole point. Where the story originates doesn't make what it teaches any less relevant to life. You say "Stole" from pagan religions, why not say "Adopted to unite people around a central faith"? One view is negative one is not, don't be negative, cast that shit out man. I do agree, all people should be treated equally, that does not mean however that morals, values, principles, or in some cases even laws should be tarnished or changed that contradict the overlying set of morals, values, principles, or laws that stand already for a reason.

Agreed. No doubt about it.

But that doesn't HAVE to be taught in a religious setting. Those things were taught in a religious setting to control people, to continue to make money off of them, to give them a reason to continue making money for those in power.

You can still teach good values and not live as a Christian or in any other religion.

I did cover that a little bit talking about not going to church at some point and learning at home with my parents more than at church when I was going, and then even more at home. I am just curious who or what put it in your head that those things were taught in a religious setting strictly to control people, make money off of them and give them a reason to continue making money for those in power. I will not and can not deny it entirely, but that not what it ever ALL about. And BTW, what is wrong with controlling peoples conduct and actions to some extent? It's not as if that has changed at all, the only difference is that it comes from a law enforcement group we call the Police instead of the church, and it's a damn good thing we have them or else there would be total chaos.

You have to imagine that without some kind of social order brought about by the teachings of religion, it would have been chaos then too. You can't just let people run wild and indulge all their impulses, there has to be some kind of order, some rules, some authority, some checks and balances. And so what they made money, it's not like they were billing by the hour or something like a shrink, they had to get money through donation and still do. How else were they to maintain the house of worship or have anything for themselves to survive unless you were a monk who just lived in a monastery? It's not all gloom and doom, corruption and oppressive control. Sure, some of that did occur, but that's always what stand out because it WAS BAD. You think there were too many historical accounts of how great the sermon was last week? Or how much food and monetary support the church provided to the poor? No, of course you don't hear about that, that would PROMOTE the religion, and that wouldn't put this negative tyrants face on Religion for those who wish to destroy it.

Really? So when homosexuals are actively hunted down and tortured and killed because that's what God says, that's not a problem in society? When cult leaders take 14 year girls as their wives and have babies with them because God says sex should be for procreation, that's not a problem?

Firstly, When was the last time homosexuals were "actively hunted down, tortured and killed" for any reason? Not any time in recent history that's for sure. They do commit a high level of crimes against each other but you indicate that it comes from radical Christians going out gay bashing and try to kill them. I have never in my lifetime seen or heard of anything of the sort. Oh, and Waco is about the last time the second scenario was relevant, and again that's an extremist and a nut-job that in no way reflects the majority of Christians or religious people in general. Neither of those situations are realistic to the problems of modern society.

I would argue there are just as many problems from living the way God tells us to as there are otherwise.

And I would love to hear you try to explain that without harping on Old Testament shit that Jesus already stuck down.

And that's the way it should be. Knowledge should be what you base your decision on what to believe. Anyone who refuses knowledge is condemning themselves to be slaves of a religious institution. I pity those slaves.

I get what you're getting at but I don't buy that. Knowledge about your religion obviously should have some bearing on where you stand as it pertains to that religion, but knowledge itself should be no ones God.

 

[Larry]

This was accidentally a double post that occurred because of some kind of weird malfunction on the page. Please don't hold this one against me.

 

[Loveless]

Someone needs to point this guy in the direction of a dictionary and tell him to look up the definitions of Indoctrination and Hypocrisy, because he evidently doesn't understand what either mean.

Do you agree with Rick Santorum? Why or why not?

Of course not, he's preaching ignorance. Critical thinking? Who needs that. Read this book and be quiet.

What's the real reason that children lose their faith after higher education?

It's not the indoctrination of colleges and universities causing these kids to lose their faith, it's the sudden lack of indoctrination from parents, churches and communities. These kids are finally free to think for themselves and that's the deathknell for any faith.

 

[Slyfox696]

I spent a lot of time on this so please take the time and have the courtesy to at least read it.

I can't promise you anything because it's so damn long.

How can you seriously sit there and justify attacking Christianity? No one ever said that Christianity has been without it's faults over time as it pertains to who has suffered at the hands of it, however that is not an adequate justification for what we see today running rampant across the U.S. People seem to forget that settlers came here to escape religious persecution, and that it was Christianity that this country was founded on. If there is any religion that should be free from the attacks you promote it is Christianity. This is not to say that people shouldn't be able to not be Christian, oppose it, or question it. But, there is a fine line between those things and the outright rape of the religion that we are seeing today in society.

Not really. What's funny is that all the attacks on Christianity are completely true. The attacks are the result of years of evil doing and pushing your religion onto others. And now when people fight back, Christians want to throw their hands up and play innocent.

I beg to differ, Christianity is quite a bit different than the other religions the world has seen. First of all, in no other major religion is the key prophet or savior also sacrificed/martyred for the sins of the people, the son of God, or an actual person that existed as Christ can be historically proven to have. Also, Christianity stood out as a monotheistic religion and at it's time of origin, aside from the only other Abrahamic religion at the time of Christ, Judaism.

I doubt you've ever heard of it, and yes I do know my history, but there was a religion practiced in Rome pre-dating Christianity called Mithraism that some believe to have been a "competitor" to Christianity around 2 A.D. It was a form of Grecco-Roman Paganism and the origins of the date for the birth of Christ. Most know it came from paganism but not "where from" within paganism as it was rather broad. It was the celebratory date of the birth of the sun according to this mythological religion. That date "was chosen to be held holy not like the pagans "because of the birth of the sun" but for he who made it", and that is documented from 320 A.D. This is a big difference between a lot of the ancient religions and Christianity as well. Most of them were literally just made up, they just made up Gods and made up practices based in nothing. Christianity is obviously centered around an actual person believed to be the son of God, the savior of man, and based on the teachings of said person who was not just supposed to be the son of God but God himself in essence as well.

I'm sorry, I have to stop you there. When you say the difference between ancient religions and Christianity is that the others were literally just made up with made up Gods and practices based in nothing, I literally laughed out loud.

I'd also like to ask what blowback Christianity has earned here in the short existence of the Unites States? Okay, homosexuals have a legit gripe, but they are also in direct contradiction of something laid out very clearly in the Bible as an abomination. With the advancement of science and research into the homosexual lifestyle and trends within the homosexual community there are far more reasons beyond strictly religious beliefs to oppose is as well. The health risks alone, susceptibility to mental illness and pre existing mental illness in many, the heightened risk of rape from other homosexuals, increased risk and susceptibility to drug and alcohol addiction, suicide rates, etc.... all point to an inevitable fact that there is not just something but a lot wrong with it and you can't just try to blame that shit on "the oppression of society". Society doesn't make them BE gay, make them do the things they do, and is not responsible for their actions.

I'm literally dumbfounded that any person in this day and age can actually believe what you're saying. Seriously, I'm doing everything I can not to tell you how incredibly fucking stupid and insulting your comment is.

Other than that who can complain about "the oppression of Christianity" in America. Certainly not women. Nowhere in The Bible has it ever said to make sure women can't vote, or work, or that they are not equal to men.

And yet, who was responsible for sin? A woman. Who was responsible for Adam committing sin? A woman.

Try again.

I call bullshit. That is a gross exaggeration.

And I say you're completely wrong. Fortunately, facts only support one of us...

http://rense.com/general88/mus.htm

When Muslim kids get special privileges in schools to leave class so they can bow to Mecca and pray, yet it is disallowed for Christians to have prayer in school, that is far from the picture you paint.

Except this comment is absurdly false. Christians DO get to have prayer in school. Hell, our school allows students to meet every Wednesday to discuss Christianity and to pray.

What schools CAN'T do is be the ones leading the prayer. And since you're not claiming they're leading the Muslim prayers, your comment is ridiculously false.

When Christmas is turned into a holiday of consumerism and the observance of it's true meaning is discouraged in every way possible what would you call it?

Greedy Christians? Since Christians are the only ones who celebrate Christmas, I'm not really sure how you can blame anyone else for that.

When Christians are treated with such intolerance, made to compromise their beliefs or completely ignore them by secular society, while you can't say a damn thing against Islam or Judaism without either being Anti-Muslim even though the Quran DOES teach that killing people is okay(I read it myself last night) or Anti-Semetic if you simply don't agree with Judaism, and are made to sit down, shut up, and just let the rest of the country trample all over your beliefs, the beliefs and religion this country WAS founded on, and whose values shaped our constitution and bill or rights, YEAH I'd say there is a problem.

Do you actually believe this excrement which comes out of your mouth? Christians criticize other religions ALL THE TIME. And if you call another religion wrong, you ARE anti-Muslim or whatever. It's a fair label, just as it is a fair label to say those nutjobs in the Middle East are anti-Christian.

It's not right for people to come to this country and expect that we change everything about it, and change what this country is, what is was founded on, the values of this nation, or to tolerate the mistreatment of the Christian community because they believe in something else, or don't like Christianity.

Yes, because Christians felt the same way when they landed here and completely eradicated and assimilated the cultures native to this land, right?

It's amazing how you preach one thing, when your actions throughout history suggest another.

Guess what, if one of us were to go to Iran or Saudi Arabia I can guarantee they sure as shit aren't going to change anything about their religion and the role of that religion in their society to accommodate us no matter how much we disliked it or disagreed.

These are also people who rape and murder women for not bearing them sons, whose governments kill their own people for speaking against them, etc.

Are these really the type of people you want to model our country after?

Lies, Lies, Lies, Lies.

No, it's actually all true.

I am well aware that there are folks out there who do reflect those beliefs you mentioned, but that's not what Christianity itself teaches anyone. Again, that is an example of people taking shit out of context, twisting the word of God, or using it to serve their own agenda in some other way. Catholics, specifically do not believe in contraception for a number of reasons that I am sure I don't need to explain to you as you were raised Catholic. However, did it ever occur to you that part of the reason behind that was to try and promote abstinence until marriage which would obvious have a positive effect on society as whole, or to try and make people be more responsible in marriage not to have too many kids and in turn have to raise those kids in poverty because they have too many? This would also help reduce the number of children and families raised on the government dollar which in turn comes from you and me, and in turn also helps the economy and society as whole.

WHAT?! Do you really believe what you just said there? The reason Catholics don't believe in contraception is because procreation spreads the religion. The more people who practice the faith, the more influence you have, and the more power and money you have.

You should have went to an institution of higher learning. You'd be able to understand the reasons proclaimed by the religion are disingenuous and merely a cover for the real reason.

Not all Christians or even a majority believe that women should be submissive to their husbands either, that is a rather out-dated belief that most today see well past.

Only because they've been continuously reminded how stupid it was to see women as inferior. Perhaps if we continue to teach you how silly some of your beliefs are, you'll come to understand how ridiculous they are.

And as for homosexuals...Here we go again. Okay, In Leviticus 18:22 it says "A man is not to lie with another man as one lies with a women, it is an abomination, and Leviticus 20:13 says "If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads." and this is where people like you get this ammunition. However you forget that in the New Testament it is Jesus' teaching that "whoever is without sin may cast the first stone" and that was in reference to a sexual act of adultery even. Since we are all sinners Jesus makes it pretty clear to us that we are in fact NOT to do anything like that, and that's just ONE of Christs teachings that tell us not to treat anyone like that, of the many teachings the promote people treating each other with love, compassion, respect, and leaving any punishment we have coming for our actions up to God the father to take out on us if indeed we never repent or as for forgiveness for our sins WHICH we are guaranteed through the sacrifice of Christ who died on the cross so that we could be forgiven.

No I get my ammunition when I see Christians on television condemning homosexuals and making them second class citizens. I get my ammunition when Christians go calling people "******" as an insult. I get my ammunition when homosexuals are killed for being homosexual. That's where I get my ammunition.

If with all your education, facts, and ability to think for yourself rationally and logically but you can't see that these things that occurred in history were actions of MAN not the religion itself

That's ridiculous. Religion is created by man. No religion has ever existed which was not created by man. God didn't create religion, man did to celebrate God.

The actions of man have everything to do with this conversation.

I find it funny as well that you don't see folks like yourself as being the exact same as those you call sheep being led to pasture.

Because I'm not. Your belief is based on absolutely ZERO facts. You have nothing more than blind belief and a desire to belong to keep you dedicated to your faith. There is ZERO evidence of a divine being, and as far as Jesus goes, guys going around claiming to be the messenger of the divine are a dime a dozen.

On the other hand, I know women are equal to men, and heterosexuals are no better than homosexuals. I know evolution is loaded with evidence and that people can be taught good morals and values without religion. I have facts on my side, and you have blind faith.

That's why you're the sheep, and I'm the one laughing.

Religion isn't mental slavery.

Yes it is. Its intent is to teach you how you should act, and to punish you (with Hell) if you don't act in that way. It requires unquestioning dedication and acceptance, without ever really giving you anything substantial in return.

You should only be so glad you had a family that cared about you enough to try and see to it that you were taught these morals and values, and that religion was a cornerstone of your life.

Fuck off. If I choose not to have my child grow up in a church, don't tell me I don't care about my child growing up with proper morals and values.

And yet, you still wonder why people attack Christians like you. Fuck off.



(I'm not really upset, I'm just demonstrating an important point.)

With all that involvement and education in Christianity I am surprised that you would even take that seriously.

I didn't. But it showed me what a farce it is to try and say one faith is greater than another. Who is better, the Catholic or the Baptist? When you realize the answer is "it depends entirely on the character of the person", then you'll understand why the question "Who is better, the Christian or the Muslim" has the same answer.

This really just saddens me, this story of yours and how it effected you. But, notice this pivotal point in your life, and the source of the information that ultimately turned you away. It was a teacher, someone who you were to trust with your mind and you did, and look what they did with it. They brought forth something to turn you away from your religion. Although you might not have been big on it before, and what kid really is, you were still involved in it and it was obviously still a big part of your life. I am very sorry for you, because I know what they feels like and how shattering it can be. This is one of the main causes I see in people turning away from religion, in some way they feel let down, or lied to when they see things like this Baptist doing what he did. I would urge you to get back into it and do some soul searching, try to find your faith again, and rather than depending on someone else to tell you what it's all about, discovering it for yourself, truly. All the negativity that you have been exposed to and that we get put in our faces all the time is not the true face of Christianity or Catholicism or religion in general and I think somewhere deep down you know that, but it is hard to stand by religion in these modern times when so many discourage it and treat religious people so poorly. I can't blame you for not wanting that persecution and turning away.

I find it amusing you feel sorry for me for breaking free of the mental slavery forced upon me by religion, and for giving me the ammunition to begin thinking for myself.

Don't feel sorry for me. I can only hope you'll one day understand what I mean.

I never trusted the church and found out early that in modern society it amounted to nothing but a social contest of "Holier than thou art" and it was a place where God was the last person doing the judging, it was everyone else who judged you if you didn't have a nice suit to wear every week or really nice clothes in general, who looked down on you for not being as into the whole social aspect of it as they were

If this is the case, then how can you be upset when people dismiss religion?

Christianity is a religion, one you claim to not belong to. You claim to believe in your own variation of it, but not Christianity itself. So you, too, disagree with Christianity, and are even currently criticizing it. How can you be upset when we do the same?

There's a saying I came across a long time ago, and I've never found a better way to explain it myself.

""I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours." -Stephen F. Roberts

That statement right there says it all, and basically explains why people like me have no time nor patience for Christianity. Combine that with the education we receive to come to understand why that statement above is so poignant, and you can understand where we come from.

But the story of Noah and the Ark teaches something nonetheless does it not? That is the whole point. Where the story originates doesn't make what it teaches any less relevant to life.

No, but what it does show is that Christianity ISN'T the only religion to ever have it "right". If Christianity is right, then so are these other religions. And since Christianity says anyone who doesn't believe the way they do is condemned to a life in Hell, it's just hard to take Christianity seriously.

Anyways, it seems as if this getting completely off point, so I'm going to skip the last bit you posted since it seems basically the same as the other stuff. But the long and short of this is anyone who goes to an institution of higher learning becomes armed with the ability to see through all the bullshit which exists in the Christian religion, like (for example) how Christians "adopted" other religions in order to gain influence, power and wealth and then claim anyone who doesn't believe like them is condemned to damnation. You keep trying to say all the evil which has been done has been done by man, but religion is a man made entity. For all the attacks you see on Christianity, you rarely see an attack on Jesus, correct? Religion is criticized because it deserves to be. It's that simple. And when people learn to think for themselves, they understand how silly it is to be blindly devoted to a religion which has done so much wrong. And they also learn that believing in something without a single shred of tangible proof is not the best way to go through life. And this is why people turn away from religion as they go through educational institutions.

 

[Serious Mozzarella]

Okay, homosexuals have a legit gripe, but they are also in direct contradiction of something laid out very clearly in the Bible as an abomination. With the advancement of science and research into the homosexual lifestyle and trends within the homosexual community there are far more reasons beyond strictly religious beliefs to oppose is as well. The health risks alone, susceptibility to mental illness and pre existing mental illness in many, the heightened risk of rape from other homosexuals, increased risk and susceptibility to drug and alcohol addiction, suicide rates, etc.... all point to an inevitable fact that there is not just something but a lot wrong with it and you can't just try to blame that shit on "the oppression of society". Society doesn't make them BE gay, make them do the things they do, and is not responsible for their actions.

I want you to take your claim, and elaborate on it. I want you to look up the science you obviously found to back this up, and show me where homosexuality leads to an increased susceptibility to mental illness, rape, and drug addiction.

You know what? I'll save you the trouble. Don't do any research. Because it doesn't fucking exist. You pulled the data out of your ass because you think using "science" will justify your bigoted religion.

Sure, society isn't making anyone gay, but it's sure as shit making it extremely difficult for homosexuals to function in society, solely because of Christianity. To be a little more specific, yes, the oppression of society IS the cause of the increase of suicide rates in homosexuals. And it's your fault.

I'm nominating this section of your post for a new 2012 award. The "Stupidest Thing Said In 2012" award. I don't care that we have 10 months left in the year, I guarantee this'll win.

 

[Serious Mozzarella]

You know what, fuck it, I'll respond to the entire thing.

How can you seriously sit there and justify attacking Christianity? No one ever said that Christianity has been without it's faults over time as it pertains to who has suffered at the hands of it, however that is not an adequate justification for what we see today running rampant across the U.S. People seem to forget that settlers came here to escape religious persecution, and that it was Christianity that this country was founded on. If there is any religion that should be free from the attacks you promote it is Christianity. This is not to say that people shouldn't be able to not be Christian, oppose it, or question it. But, there is a fine line between those things and the outright rape of the religion that we are seeing today in society.

74% of Americans are Christian. We've never had a non-Christian President. If you seriously think there's a systematic oppression of Christians in America, you are the dumbest person in the world. I'm not exaggerating. Snooki could overtake you in a religious debate if you seriously think this is true.

I beg to differ, Christianity is quite a bit different than the other religions the world has seen. First of all, in no other major religion is the key prophet or savior also sacrificed/martyred for the sins of the people, the son of God, or an actual person that existed as Christ can be historically proven to have. Also, Christianity stood out as a monotheistic religion and at it's time of origin, aside from the only other Abrahamic religion at the time of Christ, Judaism.

Actually, Christianity is laughably similar to a metric fuck-ton of other religions. Let me rephrase, Christianity blatantly stole from other religious texts.

http://www.pocm.info/getting_started_pocm.html

For people who don't like clicking links, here we go:

1. Osiris brings his believers to heaven.
2. Vespatian healed the blind.
3. Dionysus turned water into wine.
4. Alexander the Great/Agustus/Dionysus described as the Son of God, born from a mortal woman.

All of these stories predated Jesus Christ, and the New Testament.

Let's not forget the fact that every major Christian religion falls on an eerily similar, predated Pagan religion.

If you're going to sit here and argue that Christianity is a somehow unique religion, you're opening yourself up to the most commonly known contradictions to your tired arguments, and all I have to do is tell you to watch Zeitgeist.

I doubt you've ever heard of it, and yes I do know my history, but there was a religion practiced in Rome pre-dating Christianity called Mithraism that some believe to have been a "competitor" to Christianity around 2 A.D. It was a form of Grecco-Roman Paganism and the origins of the date for the birth of Christ. Most know it came from paganism but not "where from" within paganism as it was rather broad. It was the celebratory date of the birth of the sun according to this mythological religion. That date "was chosen to be held holy not like the pagans "because of the birth of the sun" but for he who made it", and that is documented from 320 A.D. This is a big difference between a lot of the ancient religions and Christianity as well. Most of them were literally just made up, they just made up Gods and made up practices based in nothing. Christianity is obviously centered around an actual person believed to be the son of God, the savior of man, and based on the teachings of said person who was not just supposed to be the son of God but God himself in essence as well.

Yeah, this story is identical to nearly every origin-of-Earth story. I can sit here and tell you that Christianity is just made-up by some guys in the desert roughly 3,500 years ago, and there's not shit you can tell me to prove otherwise.

Again you try to justify this attack on Christianity. At least you didn't try to be so bold as to deny that it is a reality of society. It's been getting worse and worse since the turn of the last century with Darwinism, Atheism, and later Secularism. I'd also like to ask what blowback Christianity has earned here in the short existence of the Unites States? Okay, homosexuals have a legit gripe, but they are also in direct contradiction of something laid out very clearly in the Bible as an abomination. With the advancement of science and research into the homosexual lifestyle and trends within the homosexual community there are far more reasons beyond strictly religious beliefs to oppose is as well. The health risks alone, susceptibility to mental illness and pre existing mental illness in many, the heightened risk of rape from other homosexuals, increased risk and susceptibility to drug and alcohol addiction, suicide rates, etc.... all point to an inevitable fact that there is not just something but a lot wrong with it and you can't just try to blame that shit on "the oppression of society". Society doesn't make them BE gay, make them do the things they do, and is not responsible for their actions.

You think people who don't practice a religion are inherently attacking Christianity? Because what you just said is that the existence of Darwinism, Atheism, and "Secularism" is evidence of an attack on Christianity. I really want you to soak in how absurd this is. By your logic, every other religion is offensive to you, simply because it's not Abrahamic Christian. Hinduism, Buddhism, Taoism, etc.

I also want to remind you that 74% of all Americans are Christian. That means that every other religion represented in America COMBINED still do not become the majority over Christians. By definition, they will never be oppressed.

Other than that who can complain about "the oppression of Christianity" in America. Certainly not women. Nowhere in The Bible has it ever said to make sure women can't vote, or work, or that they are not equal to men. As a matter of fact at the very beginning God states that it was not good for man to be alone so he decided to make him a partner, not a superior or a subservient. Also, if you are following the teachings of Christ any mistreatment of women doesn't line up with that at all anyways. You can say that man has used religion to justify injustices through twisted interpretations, but that is not the fault of the religion itself, once again that is the flaw of man.

"Let the women learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression." (I Timothy 2:11-14)

"Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body. Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in everything." (Ephesians 5:22-24)

"Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church." (I Corinthians 14:34-35)

"For the man is not of the woman; but the woman of the man. Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man." (I Corinthians 11:8-9)

You seem to be spending a lot of time finding faults in other religions by reading non-Christian religious texts, but I'm pretty certain you've never even picked up a Bible.

It is obvious that within The Bible, man interjected some of his own agenda through history, but today we can clearly see where this took place and look past it. Most of the stuff people criticize in The Bible comes from the early Old Testament, but the whole purpose of Christ being sent here by God was to help man get it right where we had got it so horrible wrong, and to clarify the message of God as is explained and displayed in The Bible as well. The point there being that the Old Testament is not to be taken as the law of man in its entirety as it is an example of how flawed man was in delivering the word of God to the people, and as mentioned, serving his own agenda in doing so.

I've heard this bullshit a lot. "But the New Testament rules the Old Testament obsolete," and nobody ever sticks around to prove it. So I want you to find me the line in the New Testament that tells people to disregard the Old Testament.

Yeah, I'm going to save you some more trouble.

"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. (Matthew 5:17)

When Christians are treated with such intolerance, made to compromise their beliefs or completely ignore them by secular society

Waaah, poor oppressed Christians, with their religion spewing all over our money, government buildings, and public parks. I wish society would stop oppressing us by letting Muslims pray, and letting gay people be gay!

while you can't say a damn thing against Islam or Judaism without either being Anti-Muslim even though the Quran DOES teach that killing people is okay(I read it myself last night)

This one should be fun.

Murder all homosexuals:
"If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives." (Leviticus 20:13 NAB)

Murder all adulterers:
If a man commits adultery with another man's wife, both the man and the woman must be put to death. (Leviticus 20:10 NLT)

Murder all non-believers:
They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman. (2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NAB)

Shut the fuck up about the Qu'ran.

or Anti-Semetic if you simply don't agree with Judaism, and are made to sit down, shut up, and just let the rest of the country trample all over your beliefs, the beliefs and religion this country WAS founded on, and whose values shaped our constitution and bill or rights, YEAH I'd say there is a problem.

You haven't given one legitimate scenario where Christianity was oppressed.

No one is trying to force anyone to BE Christians, but America always has been a Christian nation, and Christianity has always been the religion OF the nation.

Bullshit. The very first amendment to the Constitution was written respecting the freedom of ALL religion, not the freedom of Christianity. Just because a few of the people who first established a leadership on American soil worshiped a God doesn't mean this suddenly became a Christian nation.

The government doesn't recognize the systematic leadership and principles of one religion. If you can't deal with that, go buy an island somewhere, and start your own little theocracy.

Many of our traditions, our values, our way of life, and as I mentioned before even our Constitution and Bill of Rights are based in it. It's not right for people to come to this country and expect that we change everything about it, and change what this country is, what is was founded on, the values of this nation, or to tolerate the mistreatment of the Christian community because they believe in something else, or don't like Christianity.

The Bill of Rights respects the freedom of religion, moron, and not one thing has happened that's taken that freedom away from you.

Guess what, if one of us were to go to Iran or Saudi Arabia I can guarantee they sure as shit aren't going to change anything about their religion and the role of that religion in their society to accommodate us no matter how much we disliked it or disagreed. So why should we as Americans be forced to do just that for everyone else? No one is saying you can't be Muslim, or Buddhist, or Jewish, or anything else, but we sure as hell aren't going to stop being Christians, championing our beliefs, and upholding them within our society because other people don't like it and want us to change to cater to them. That's just not how it works and it's not right to us.

No one is saying you can't be a Christian. No one is persecuting you for being a Christian. No one is taking away your religious rights, or anything that comes with it.

Not all Christians or even a majority believe that women should be submissive to their husbands either, that is a rather out-dated belief that most today see well past. Those that observe it though, do so of their own free will just as they can reject it of their own free will.

Then not all Christians have read the Bible. I've already cited verses where women are ordered to be submissive. But Christians like to cherry pick rules out of the Bible to follow, as long as it fits their own chosen lifestyle.

And as for homosexuals...Here we go again. Okay, In Leviticus 18:22 it says "A man is not to lie with another man as one lies with a women, it is an abomination, and Leviticus 20:13 says "If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads." and this is where people like you get this ammunition. However you forget that in the New Testament it is Jesus' teaching that "whoever is without sin may cast the first stone" and that was in reference to a sexual act of adultery even. Since we are all sinners Jesus makes it pretty clear to us that we are in fact NOT to do anything like that, and that's just ONE of Christs teachings that tell us not to treat anyone like that, of the many teachings the promote people treating each other with love, compassion, respect, and leaving any punishment we have coming for our actions up to God the father to take out on us if indeed we never repent or as for forgiveness for our sins WHICH we are guaranteed through the sacrifice of Christ who died on the cross so that we could be forgiven.

"Let he who is without sin cast the first stone," was a suggestion of hypocrisy on the population, not a rule to live by. Again, there's not one passage of the New Testament that renders the Old Testament obsolete.

If with all your education, facts, and ability to think for yourself rationally and logically but you can't see that these things that occurred in history were actions of MAN not the religion itself than I would ask for a refund on my education, or take a deep look at myself and ask why this hatred for Christianity is in me, and why I was foolish and naive enough to allow someone to bring me to this misguided understanding. None of your "Facts" are about "Christianity" per-say, they are about the horrible things people have done in the name of Christianity and there is a big difference. No one is questioning whether the actions of Popes past or other members of Christianity were wrong, we know they were, but you can't or at least shouldn't go and condemn the whole religion because of that, or compromise your own faith because secularists in educational institutions have done such a fine job of painting the religion itself as this inhuman evil monster that you seem to be convinced it is.

Horrible things people have done in the name of Christianity that the Bible explicitly tells people to do. If someone murders a homosexual in the name of Christianity, you can immediately pull up the passage of the Bible that says all homosexuals must be put to death. This is not really a matter of opinion.

I find it funny as well that you don't see folks like yourself as being the exact same as those you call sheep being led to pasture. You are being led out to pasture just the same doing exactly as society, and your beloved institutions are telling you, taking this twisted view of the religion, melding together the flaws and acts of man and the religion itself as if the religion is responsible for the actions of the people who did these horrible things in the past and who continue to do horrible things today. Those people are often times extremists, or complete wack jobs, or people who simply never had anything explained to them the right way.

Ah, yeah, the beloved institution of logic and reason, leading all these otherwise insane sheep into Free Thinking Ranch. You're doing a pretty terrible job of twisting words and grasping at straws trying to make other people look like hypocrites.

Adhering to logic, and following the basic rules of surviving in society is not being a sheep. Blindly accepting the words printed in a 4,000 year old book when observable evidence points to the contrary, on the other hand? I got some bad news for you...

You should only be so glad you had a family that cared about you enough to try and see to it that you were taught these morals and values, and that religion was a cornerstone of your life.

If you think "being a good person" is a concept that Christianity invented, then you're a bigger idiot than I thought.

Firstly, When was the last time homosexuals were "actively hunted down, tortured and killed" for any reason? Not any time in recent history that's for sure.

Matthew Shepard would like a word with you.

Oh wait, he can't talk. He was brutally tortured and eventually murdered because of his sexuality.

How about the 150 people murdered in Brazil in 2004 for being gay?

Do you just pretend these things don't exist?

And I would love to hear you try to explain that without harping on Old Testament shit that Jesus already stuck down.

He didn't strike anything down.

 

[lowandmighty]

My opinion of what's happening is that children grow up being taught what to think which often includes some kind of religious faith. Lots of kids have parents who force them to go to church or the mosque or the synagogue or whatever with them and the kids are basically brainwashed into thinking that its really important and their futures depend on it.
Kids who get higher education eventually develop the skill to learn how to think for themselves rather than relying on what they're told by others and end up realising that all religion is a load of crap and not one of life's necessity's.