Dolph Ziggler has a point

[Psykohurricane55]

First of all, i have to say that i'm not really a fan of the new crybaby character that Ziggler is dong but at the same time, i have to say that i kinda agree with the whole message his character is saying right now.

Wrestling right now especially in WWE is all about the entrance. Pretty much everybody that on the upper mid card level is there not because of the in ring stuff but because of their entrance.

I think now more then ever, we're in the era of Fans only caring about the entrance and not the actual match and that sad really.

Take for example Bray Wyatt, here's a character that should be a major Supernatural Heel, Yet he got a cool entrance that fans like to cheer and play along with so he became just another guy on the roster because of it.

Finn Balor same thing, the guy is a really good wrestler not a great promo but a good wrestler, yet the only time he's truly over is during his entrance.

Bobby roode, Great heel, but again, how can he be able to do his job and be a great hell when everybody is chanting along to his entrance theme and cheering him because of it. No wonder they turn him babyface when he debuted on smackdown.

Finally, shinsuke Nakamura, not a big fan of his because i'm not really into that strong style of wrestling but again, his entrance is over with the fans, which doesn't help him at all because he's not able to adapt to WWE style and the rest of the roster can't adapt to his style so it leave you with some boring matches that fans don't care about. But his entrance is still over so he's not moving from the stop spot anytime soon.

In the end, i think that even more now then back in the 80's and 90's. Wrestlers are put in position on the roster based on how over the entrance is. They don't care about what's going on in the ring but they care about the entrances because it easier to participate with a entrance then with a match.

 

[HeenanGorilla]

They don't care about what's going on in the ring but they care about the entrances because it easier to participate with a entrance then with a match.

This speaks volumes. Participate. People used to go to see a show. Now, many of today's "fans" go to arenas because they either think they are part of the show or want to be part of the show because everything but sing-along time bores them. If you are familiar with this forum, you will see that many people here do not enjoy anything about wrestling today...yet can't stop watching. I am guessing these are the people who recite Enzo's "My name is.." as he is saying it, for example. I cringe every time the camera shows an adult acting out the "you can't..teach..that" actions. Not an adult with a kid who are enjoying themselves; an adult amongst other adults...I just don't get it. What are you getting out of this sing along with your fellow attendees? Back in the Attitude Era, Road Dogg had his spiel with "Ladies and gentlemen.." and it would often include "tag team champions of the world.." because NAO were the tag champs for much of that era. But, whenever Road Dogg would wrestle a singles match, or go for a singles title, or even when NAO didn't have the belts, he would revise the announcement to fit the occasion...but the "fans" would continue with the standard and then trip all over themselves when they realized he wasn't saying what they were saying. Go back to a '99 or 2000 RAW or PPV...it's so awkward! The point is, a lot of the people at these shows don't pay attention. They complain because they like to complain and the product put in front of them will never change that...unless they are told to feel a different way online when they get home or check social media on their phones while on the train afterwards. "Let's see if the world reacted to that chant I tried to start in the upper deck.." It's usually a stadium or arena full of puppets that don't know why they are booing, have no interest in cheering and just want to speak along with the performers' spiels to feel like part of it.

There are still kids and families and actual fans out there. But, the ones you hear from all the time are the people who can't let go of the past and hate the present...yet will absolutely be there in the future.

 

[ABMorales787]

Sweet God, I think the English Language needs medical attention after that. But I see your point.

The thing is, it's not that people only care about entrances. It's that WWE only cares about entrances. Bobby Roode, Shinsuke Nakamura, Finn Balor, Aleister Black and so on, they all have elaborate entrances. But at the same time, they had full fledged development in NXT. They were presented as people with a story to them, who developed into the superstars we know. We knew them for their great matches and with the exception of Aleister, for their runs as NXT Champions.

But when they go to Raw and Smackdown, as has been the case with literally every call-up except Kevin Owens, everything they had in NXT is dumbed down to one or two things that stick out. "Nakamura likes Freddie Mercury and Michael Jackson? Call him "The Artist". Even though that's a Prince thing. Dumb fucks. "Big E has a funny preacher voice? Make him a preacher". It blew up on their face hilariously but you get the point.

It's not the fans, it's WWE dumbing these guys down and that conditions fans that didn't follow these people in NXT to believe it. They've been doing it for 3 years now.

 

[Jack-Hammer]

I'm with Killjoy in that it's not the entrances, it's the fact that a lot of what makes some of the guys so special, after they've come up from NXT, while they were in NXT has been either completely stripped away or heavily watered down.

In NXT, they constantly referenced Nakamura as the "King of Strong Style", they put it on T-shirts that sold like crazy, they played up the fact that he's so different in terms of mannerisms and charisma without comparing him to dead pop stars, and this whole "Artist" bit has Vince McMahon's fingerprints all over it. Of course, I can't say I'm at all surprised by this because so much of what made Nakamura who he is has had absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with Vince McMahon. That means it either has to go or it's replaced by some goofy "sports entertainment" nonsense to make Vince happy like he's some "Artist" who patterns his mannerism and ring gear after guys like Michael Jackson or Freddie Mercury or even Prince.

Nakamura is one of these guys who's gotten over despite Vince's sabotage, whether intentional or accidental, and I wouldn't be one bit surprised if that pisses Vince off as well.

 

[Psykohurricane55]

But, if i can bring in a counter point to you guys. What made Bobby roode so special in NXT, his matches or his entrance? It was his entrance because let's face they really didn't give you any back story on Bobby roode.

Same goes for Nakamura in NXT, sure most fans that are watching NXT knows who Nakamura was before NXT, but let's face it, for some of us, we don't know or cares about what being the king of strong style means, in fact, i'm sure that a lot of casual fans don't even know what strong style is. Even if you go out there and explain it in great details, nobody outside a small group will care about this so you need to found a way to simplify the character for the masses so that everybody understand the character.

I feel that sometimes, WWE creative thinks just like us on the wrestling boards that because it worked in NXT, they don't need to change a thing about it or actually introduce the character because everybody that watch raw and smackdown also watch NXT. That's not true at all, in fact, you got probably only half of the peoples that watch raw and smackdown that actually watch NXT. So you really can't be lazy with those guys when you called them up because if you don't introduced them properly, they will fail.

 

[George Steele's Barber]

Wrestling right now especially in WWE is all about the entrance.

This isn't remotely true at all. Entrances are just another piece of the puzzle that can help make a wrestler more popular (i.e. make more money). WWE has put more focus in to it ever since they were reminded of it's power via Daniel Bryan's lightning in a bottle "Yes!" chant and through HHH's leadership in NXT.

And they should. It is part of the show and something fans watch on TV, enjoy, and then pay to see it live. It's fun for some, and more fun for some when it is the type of entrance that allows you to participate.

And while it may seem as though the most popular wrestlers have the most elaborate entrance that's because....

that's what WWE wants. They're not going to spend tons of money or time to produce entrances randomly. They are giving the biggest entrances to those they expect to do the most with it (and as long as it fits their character). They want big things out of Nakamura, Roode, AJ, and Enzo so they spend a lot of money and time to build up this part of their performance. It would be amazing to see The Ascension enter the ring from a space ship every week but it isn't in WWE's financial interest to spend that kind of time, money and effort in to giving this to the fans because The Ascension are not worth it.

So is Dolph Ziggler right? No, he's being a heel by being simplistically critical of an aspect of professional wrestling and professional wrestling fans that ignores all the other pieces of the puzzle that make a wrestler popular.

 

[OYDK]

Wrestling right now especially in WWE is all about the entrance. Pretty much everybody that on the upper mid card level is there not because of the in ring stuff but because of their entrance.

This is complete and utter shit. In-ring ability means more than ever in this day and age. If you can't put on at least a passable match consistently, you're never going to get anywhere with today's fans. It's a big reason why fans originally turned on Roman Reigns. It's a huge reason why AJ Styles is as over as he is. Entrances have nothing to do with it. Besides, who really has an elaborate entrance today? Nakamura, Roode, Wyatt, who else? Owens? No. Styles? No. Rollins? No. Ambrose? No. Reigns? No. Strowman? No. Lesnar? No.

What your doing is cherry-picking 3 guys that your obviously not a fan of and trying to paint every fan with the same brush because most have a different opinion than you. "People today don't like real wrestling like they did 20-30 years ago because they cheer this guy solely because of his entrance. Oh, and because I personally think they have nothing else to offer, I must be right."

For instance, I can refute every example you use...

Take for example Bray Wyatt, here's a character that should be a major Supernatural Heel, Yet he got a cool entrance that fans like to cheer and play along with so he became just another guy on the roster because of it.

First of all, why does Bray have to be a heel? Taker was almost never a heel and he became one of the most popular wrestlers ever. Second of all, to say that his positioning is due strictly to the fans who like to play along with his entrance is completely ridiculous. You know what the brass would have done to a heel who's being constantly cheered 20 years ago? They would have done the logical thing and turned him. Bray Wyatt is not the only example of talent wasted on the roster. Pretty much everybody is "just another guy on the roster" nowadays and it has nothing to do with elaborate entrances. That's the way Vince and Co want the business run, period.

Finn Balor same thing, the guy is a really good wrestler not a great promo but a good wrestler, yet the only time he's truly over is during his entrance.

Again, bullshit. I'm pretty sure people chant "Balor" and "Too Sweet" at Finn every time he comes out to cut a promo. If you don't believe me, go watch last week's Raw... I'm pretty sure he gets nice pops every time he wins a match. Don't believe me? Go watch No Mercy. This statement has no basis in fact.

Bobby roode, Great heel, but again, how can he be able to do his job and be a great hell when everybody is chanting along to his entrance theme and cheering him because of it. No wonder they turn him babyface when he debuted on smackdown.

How can Ric Flair be a great heel when the crowd is always chanting "WOO" at him and cheering his antics? See how dumb that sounds? Roode was a great heel in NXT and still had the same entrance. How can you say he can't be a heel on the main roster when he hasn't even begun to play one yet?

Finally, shinsuke Nakamura, not a big fan of his because i'm not really into that strong style of wrestling but again, his entrance is over with the fans, which doesn't help him at all because he's not able to adapt to WWE style and the rest of the roster can't adapt to his style so it leave you with some boring matches that fans don't care about. But his entrance is still over so he's not moving from the stop spot anytime soon.

Again, the I don't like this guy so I'll assume everyone only likes him because of his entrance. Nevermind the fact that he gets massive Nakamura chants every single time he steps in the ring. But that doesn't matter. He's only over because of his entrance. See how incredibly narrow your argument is?

In the end, i think that even more now then back in the 80's and 90's. Wrestlers are put in position on the roster based on how over the entrance is. They don't care about what's going on in the ring but they care about the entrances because it easier to participate with a entrance then with a match.

Right, because people like the Ultimate Warrior, Goldberg, The Undertaker, and the LOD didn't have elaborate entrances and were absolute masters in the ring, right? Based on your argument, I can just as easily argue that those guys only got over based solely on their cool entrances. They couldn't talk and they couldn't wrestle, but they had cool entrances so people cheered them. See how easy it is to cherry-pick and make a ridiculous claim about basically anything if you try hard enough?

 

[Navi]

First of all, i have to say that i'm not really a fan of the new crybaby character that Ziggler is dong but at the same time, i have to say that i kinda agree with the whole message his character is saying right now.

Wrestling right now especially in WWE is all about the entrance. Pretty much everybody that on the upper mid card level is there not because of the in ring stuff but because of their entrance.

And his whole message right from the start is ridiculous. I for one don't care about their entrance. Sure some of them are fun, but every WWE superstar has their own tron images and theme music and it's what the audience knows them from. It's the cue for fans to either boo or cheer for their favourites. Are you saying that anyone below the midcard shouldn't have an entrance at all?

I think now more then ever, we're in the era of Fans only caring about the entrance and not the actual match and that sad really.

No like I said, it's their cue to boo and cheer, unless of course you'd rather they sit silent and do nothing. Fans like to get involved and if they can sing along or act along it's hurting no one.

Take for example Bray Wyatt, here's a character that should be a major Supernatural Heel, Yet he got a cool entrance that fans like to cheer and play along with so he became just another guy on the roster because of it.

Wyatt has one of the best entrances visually in the business. Seeing an arena full of cell phone lights in the dark is amazing. Bray himself is the failure, his entrance is the best part of his act. Oh and the fans are quiet through the whole thing.

Finn Balor same thing, the guy is a really good wrestler not a great promo but a good wrestler, yet the only time he's truly over is during his entrance.

He's over before, during and after whatever match he's in. Personally I don't like his entrance, but to say he's only liked because of it is wrong. Go back and watch a show or two.

Bobby roode, Great heel, but again, how can he be able to do his job and be a great hell when everybody is chanting along to his entrance theme and cheering him because of it. No wonder they turn him babyface when he debuted on smackdown.

It doesn't matter whether he'a babyface or a heel, he has a good entrance and the fans love it. He is also good in the ring, well not against Ziggler. No one can save you from that.

Finally, shinsuke Nakamura, not a big fan of his because i'm not really into that strong style of wrestling but again, his entrance is over with the fans, which doesn't help him at all because he's not able to adapt to WWE style and the rest of the roster can't adapt to his style so it leave you with some boring matches that fans don't care about. But his entrance is still over so he's not moving from the stop spot anytime soon.

Whether you are into the guy or not he is good in the ring. He's had his hands tied behind his back and is only allowed to do a portion what he can. Sure he has a great entrance, but he backs it up in the ring.

In the end, i think that even more now then back in the 80's and 90's. Wrestlers are put in position on the roster based on how over the entrance is. They don't care about what's going on in the ring but they care about the entrances because it easier to participate with a entrance then with a match.

You have to pull yourself out of the 80's. And fans do care if they didn't they wouldn't make noise. If a wrestler comes out to crickets they won't be around very long. I wish fans would sit still when certain wrestler's come out, but it's a spectator sport, and when you have spectators you will have noise.

 

[Psykohurricane55]

And his whole message right from the start is ridiculous. I for one don't care about their entrance. Sure some of them are fun, but every WWE superstar has their own tron images and theme music and it's what the audience knows them from. It's the cue for fans to either boo or cheer for their favourites. Are you saying that anyone below the midcard shouldn't have an entrance at all?



No like I said, it's their cue to boo and cheer, unless of course you'd rather they sit silent and do nothing. Fans like to get involved and if they can sing along or act along it's hurting no one.



Wyatt has one of the best entrances visually in the business. Seeing an arena full of cell phone lights in the dark is amazing. Bray himself is the failure, his entrance is the best part of his act. Oh and the fans are quiet through the whole thing.



He's over before, during and after whatever match he's in. Personally I don't like his entrance, but to say he's only liked because of it is wrong. Go back and watch a show or two.



It doesn't matter whether he'a babyface or a heel, he has a good entrance and the fans love it. He is also good in the ring, well not against Ziggler. No one can save you from that.



Whether you are into the guy or not he is good in the ring. He's had his hands tied behind his back and is only allowed to do a portion what he can. Sure he has a great entrance, but he backs it up in the ring.



You have to pull yourself out of the 80's. And fans do care if they didn't they wouldn't make noise. If a wrestler comes out to crickets they won't be around very long. I wish fans would sit still when certain wrestler's come out, but it's a spectator sport, and when you have spectators you will have noise.

The fun think with you reply is that by trying to give your counter points to my thread, in your own way, you pretty much agreed with most of my points about this.

Sure it's normal for fans to react for entrance, that what makes wrestling, wrestling. What I'm talking about is that a lot more wrestlers on the roster are more about the entrance then the whole wrestling.

Let's use wyatt and roode as example since both are perfect exemple of this point, fans react and participate for their entrance, then the bell ring and nothing and this happens more and more with the current wwe fans now they're into the entrance not the character and that kinda sad in my opinion.

 

[Dolph Ziggler's Gimmick]

Wrestling being way too gimmicky has been a criticism for decades. Even back in 1981, before the Hogan era, Buddy Rogers was interviewed and said the same thing, he even called the wrestling part "a lost art."

When it comes down to it, it's just what a lot of fans have wanted to see for decades now. Perhaps wrestling fans were spoiled when all the extravagant personalities emerged, all the way to the badass action hero mentality of the Attitude Era. After a certain point you just had to be "larger than life" in one way or another, or getting a main event spot would be extremely difficult.

This has finally evolved into what we see nowadays, an emphasis on presentation and entrances. You see guys like Finn Balor and Shinsuke Nakamura, that's how they connect with the crowd, that's where their charisma comes from. It works. People might not like it, and it makes for a great heel gimmick to knock something so real and evident(if there was ever an era for a gimmick-knocking gimmick it's this one), but it works at the end of the day, it gets people over and it sells.

 

[Navi]

The fun think with you reply is that by trying to give your counter points to my thread, in your own way, you pretty much agreed with most of my points about this.

Sure it's normal for fans to react for entrance, that what makes wrestling, wrestling. What I'm talking about is that a lot more wrestlers on the roster are more about the entrance then the whole wrestling.

Let's use wyatt and roode as example since both are perfect exemple of this point, fans react and participate for their entrance, then the bell ring and nothing and this happens more and more with the current wwe fans now they're into the entrance not the character and that kinda sad in my opinion.

No I don't agree at all with what you said, where are you reading that?

Wrestling is an act put on for the audience. The wrestler's entrance is part of that act, a very small part. You can have the best music, pyro's, costume, whatever you want, but if the fans don't like or don't care about you, it's all for naught.

As I said before, when their music hits that's the cue to start cheering or booing, whichever you prefer, it's not the whole act. If they can't back it up in ring or on the mic, then the entrance means nothing. Would you rather the fans just sat there and did squat, made no noise or have no reaction?

You make the point over and over that even though Reigns is boo'd he should be where he is because the fans react to him. Whether it be negative or positive, there is a reaction and as long as there is one he will stay on top. Maybe the fans should sit and just be quiet then when he comes out, maybe they should sit and do nothing when all wrestler's are introduced, would that make better TV. I can tell you from experience that watching a PPV or an episode of RAW with a quiet crowd takes away from it, you want to see the crowd reacting. That reaction starts with the entrance as much as some don't like it.

 

[ShinChan]

Wrestling right now especially in WWE is all about the entrance. Pretty much everybody that on the upper mid card level is there not because of the in ring stuff but because of their entrance.

I think now more then ever, we're in the era of Fans only caring about the entrance and not the actual match and that sad really.

There's so many ignorance in these statements. But please decide if fans want in-ring stuff or entrances. Because you're contradicting yourself by the statement below.

fans nowaday don't care about characters or about storyline, all they want is to get five star matches

Back to OP.

Take for example Bray Wyatt, here's a character that should be a major Supernatural Heel, Yet he got a cool entrance that fans like to cheer and play along with so he became just another guy on the roster because of it.

It isn't Bray's fault. Mostly, he loses his matches and that's why no one cares for him. It's all booking's fault. He could actually be entertaining but some people don't want that. Don't blame him when he always loses.

Finn Balor same thing, the guy is a really good wrestler not a great promo but a good wrestler, yet the only time he's truly over is during his entrance.

Aha! How fair? Listen the reaction when he speaks. He has been speaking more nowadays and always gets reaction while speaking. Stop with the biased judgments. Don't like him, that's no problem but don't change facts for making your biased point.

Bobby roode, Great heel, but again, how can he be able to do his job and be a great hell when everybody is chanting along to his entrance theme and cheering him because of it. No wonder they turn him babyface when he debuted on smackdown.

Again. Ric Flair's example has been given already. However if you actually watched NXT, he did make the people boo him with his heel tactics. However, all you see is his entrance.

Finally, shinsuke Nakamura, not a big fan of his because i'm not really into that strong style of wrestling but again, his entrance is over with the fans, which doesn't help him at all because he's not able to adapt to WWE style and the rest of the roster can't adapt to his style so it leave you with some boring matches that fans don't care about. But his entrance is still over so he's not moving from the stop spot anytime soon.

Boring Matches? You expect great matches with Jinder Mahal of all people? Someone who botches his own simple finisher? You know who else did it? Brie Bella.

Nakamura has had several entertaining matches. With good opponents. Not with someone like Jinder.

And top spot is only for someone whose entrance is over? He lost multiple times to Jinder Mahal. That's not top spot. Plus who's getting top spot on basis of entrances?

In the end, i think that even more now then back in the 80's and 90's. Wrestlers are put in position on the roster based on how over the entrance is. They don't care about what's going on in the ring but they care about the entrances because it easier to participate with a entrance then with a match.

Again. So much hypocrisy. Stop contradicting yourself.

The fun think with you reply is that by trying to give your counter points to my thread, in your own way, you pretty much agreed with most of my points about this.

Sure it's normal for fans to react for entrance, that what makes wrestling, wrestling. What I'm talking about is that a lot more wrestlers on the roster are more about the entrance then the whole wrestling.

Again totally wrong. More people care about the actual wrestling than ever. There won't be so many options in the world to watch great wrestling nowadays.

Let's use wyatt and roode as example since both are perfect exemple of this point, fans react and participate for their entrance, then the bell ring and nothing and this happens more and more with the current wwe fans now they're into the entrance not the character and that kinda sad in my opinion.

You mean, Bray and Roode get no reaction while being in the match?

A little advice. Watch Bobby Roode Vs. Tye Dillinger. It'll make your all points about Roode totally moot.

And stop biasing. Just because you don’t like a particular talent, it doesn't mean that he's over because of a entrance. Brock Lesnar. Roman Reigns. Dean Ambrose. Seth Rollins. Braun Strowman. Alexa Bliss. So many wrestlers with simple entrances.

 

[FromGlasgow]

I don't agree, Yes good entrances help by creating a mood and excitement for that particular wrestler but the wrestler still has to maintain that level once the entrance is over, I can honestly say I have never watched wrestling just for the entrances I do enjoy some more than others but don't agree its the key to getting over. They haven't always had entrances the first couple of wrestlemanias didnt have many entrances but that didn't stop me from enjoying watching them.