Does WWE have blood on their hands? Are they responsible for the deaths of wrestlers?

[Milkyway!]

With the recent death of Umaga,

Rest in peace Umaga.

the question arises again about where the responsibility lies in the health of superstars.

No it doesn't. Umaga got himself on drugs, and Umaga caused his own Heart Attack. The WWE released him for Drug use after refusing rehab. What more could they possibly do?

In recent years we have lost Benoit

Was voluntarily taking drugs, which caused him to have "Roid Rage" and commit murder-suicide.

Guerrero,

Was voluntarily taking drugs.

Test,

Was voluntarily taking drugs.

and now Umaga

Was voluntarily taking drugs.

Notice anything strangely similar in all these men's lives? They were voluntarily taking drugs.

(I know some of them were not with the company when they died, but there is no doubt that wrestling was part of the reason their careers were cut short.)

Wrong, the money wrestling brought these men is what allowed them to cut their own lives short. The WWE shouldn't even be almost held responsible for these mens deaths.

So here is my question, does the WWE have a moral responsibility to take every precaution with the health of their performers?

They allready do this.

 

[Toroc102]

One more thing I want to say on this topic is, doesn't the sheer amount of deaths in this one business mean that the WWE should take more responsibility. I mean there is no other business out there that has this many people dying before the age of 40 or because of drug related causes.

Ok, lets say that the WWE has no responsibility over the causes of these wrestlers deaths. Even then there are still an outrageously high number of deaths within the sport. Imagine if this many people we're dying in baseball/football/basketball, there would be investigations, regulations, and the government putting pressure on these companies. Look at Football right now and its controversy with concussions. They're starting to make their players take the appropriate amount of time off because they know how bad a concussion is. In baseball the furor over steroids is obvious. Players are having court hearing over steroids. MLB may not be responsible for players taking steroids, but they still take heat when it happenes because they could be doing more to stop it.

Wrestling combines the steroid problem of the MLB with the injury problems of the NFL both magnified since wrestlers work more dates(about 20 times more dates than football) and have no offseason and seemingly no regulations outside of Vince's authority(the reason Vince let the world know Wrestling was fake was so that he wouldn't have to abide by sporting regulations or athletic commisions). Just because the company didn't stick the needle or provide the pill doesn't mean they shouldn't be held accountable. That would be like me knowing someone was going to be robbed tomorrow and did nothing to stop it. I didn't rob the guy, but I could have done something to help prevent it. What Vince does is more akin to encouraging the robber.

 

[HBK-aholic]

That would be like me knowing someone was going to be robbed tomorrow and did nothing to stop it.

You couldn't be held responsible for that. Morally, you'd probably want to do what you could to stop it. But it happening isn't your fault. The same applies to McMahon and drugs.

What Vince does is more akin to encouraging the robber.

Not sure what more he could do? You get 3 chances as well as drug porgrams. Your job is on the line if you take drugs and you know that. McMahon, as an employer, can't do much more than what he already does.

 

[Toroc102]

"You couldn't be held responsible for that. Morally, you'd probably want to do what you could to stop it. But it happening isn't your fault. The same applies to McMahon and drugs."

Thats my point, sure its not my fault that MAN1 decided to rob MAN2, but if I know its going to happen and have enough time to do something about it then it makes me morally responsible. This is all a question about morality here.

Vince knows what the mentality in his business is. He knows why people are becoming addicted to drugs. Its not directly his fault that they become addicted but morally he should be thinking to himself, man, can I really live with myself knowing that so many people that I shook hands with in the last 20 years are now dead? I didn't give them the painkillers, but it is pretty much implied that you should work through as many injuries as you can before you finally have to have neck surgery or knee surgery, and that after you have surgery you should try to come back from it as fast as possible and after that work through as many injuries as you can once again.

He could make stars take time off at the first sign of injury(bad for business)

Shorten the workload(bad for business)

He could make the puishments for Wrestlers that do drugs much more harsh(Bad for business)

Just compare the WWE's Wellness policy to that of the major sporting companies, see what the penalties for Drug violations in those companies compared to the WWE's are and compare it to the amount of damage that has been caused by drugs in the wrestling world. There are numerous reasons why there are less tragic lives outside of the wrestling business than as a part of it. Wrestling in numerous ways is a very dirty shady business, there is nothing quite like it.

Man I have so much to say abut this, I could go all day.

 

[X]

Oh come on people, are we really going to defend Vince McMahon on this one? Obviously you can't directly blame the man, he didn't technically force anyone to use drugs, but to say that he doesn't demand an absolutely insane amount of dedication and service as well as a spectacular physical appearance is simply wrong. You think John Cena would have gotten his chance at the big time if he didn't have the right muscled look? Keep dreaming. Obviously there are cases where extraordinary talent shines through despite their size (your Rey Mysterio's and Ric Flair's) but for the most part McMahon has always looked for people with extraordinary body mass and muscles. This is the man who started the World Bodybuilding Federation after all. In the old days it was the fuckin' Wild West in those locker rooms, McMahon himself and almost every other wrestler was either using steroids, snorting cocaine, or taking a wide variety of pills (not to mention rampant alcoholism), but it wasn't just in the WWF, it was all over the globe (with the exception of Japan perhaps).

I mean, no, you can't say Vince is responsible for anyone's death, that's not fair. He does however have absolutely insane standards that's prone to leading his wrestlers to drugs. Why do you think guys like Guerrero and Benoit were eating up the 'roids and pain pills? Because they had to look their best 24/7 and go out on the road and wrestle 200+ days of the year. McMahon may not be directly responsible in any way for an individual's death, but he has certainly contributed to the drug use that led to the premature deaths of many wrestlers over the years. This has happened all over the business though, so it's not just McMahon's problem, it's pro wrestling's problem.

 

[AndarielHalo]

The only responsibility the WWE holds is their extreme work schedule. Wrestlers work some 300 days a year I had heard recently, and are on the road virtually nonstop. They tour all around the world and break themselves constantly in the ring. They take steroids to keep their bodies at a sufficient level that they can take the abuse without suffering severe injuries, and they take painkillers to stop the constant pains they suffer from having no vacation time or time to take off to recover without losing money or risking firing, or unless they get time due to a more serious injury.

Saying the WWE is not culpable because these guys voluntarily took drugs is like saying the army isn't responsible for PTSD drug overdoses because the PTSD suffering soldier voluntarily took drugs.


They wouldn't have taken the drugs if it were not for the WWE's work schedule.


There is no solution here; the WWE can't be held fully responsible, the wrestlers can't be held fully responsible. However, the wrestlers themselves would hold the majority of the responsibility. WWE's the only real serious business in the world, but wrestling as a business is very unprofitable. It's arguably worse than Hollywood---there's far more opportunities for actors in TV, movies, video game voicing, etcetera. There's only wrestling and managing and commentary in the wrestling business.

And there's only one up top, and the other below them (WWE and TNA)

 

[TLC]

Well I think its a mixture, Vince and all of the WWE are not forcing them too take the drugs and are not able to babysit them 24/7, its the wrestler alone who decides ultimately too take them which could lead to the death, but this doesn't mean that Vince doesn't pressure them too a degree that they feel that they need to take the drugs to get relief or that they need to look there absolute best, to look like a muscley freak.

So in the end you it isn't there fault that the wrestler's fault if they die but they may not be help it with constant pressure about looking there best or a number of other things, yet it doesn't just happen in WWE, it happens all over the world, so why is it that WWE seem to be getting all the blame?

 

[fearthereaper]

WWE no, but the wrestling industry as a whole, yes.

With the way the industry works (specially for up and coming talent) is if your sidelined for any reason what-so-ever, there is a good chance you won't have a job much longer. These guys are trying to support their families, and it's hard to do from the unemployment line. They work through the pain as best as they can. Working 300+ days a year doing what they do, it's going to catch up to you. But, these guys know what they are getting themselves into before they ever set foot in a ring.

 

[yoshi_doce2006]

I agree that the wrestler has to take responsibility for what he puts in his body. The wrestler (And I use that term loosely in an age of the lousy product and lack of actual wrestling) has to take care of themselves and if they don't the chord needs to be cut and they need to be let go. Unfortunately I read the wellness policy last year and while I don't remember what I read I do remember saying "Wow" because it has a lot of holes. There are a lot of things not accounted for in the policy. It looks like the WWE did the bare essentials to make it look like they were being tough on their wrestlers so their asses are covered. Now as I said it has been over a year since I read the policy and it could have been upgraded since then. Honestly I don't think the wrestlers are doing their part and I don't think the WWE is doing theirs. However I have to give the WWE credit, no matter how bad their wellness policy may be they stick to it well. Now the wrestlers need to make their own policy by not trying to wiggle around it or just plain ignore it. So in a way I guess I fault the wrestler more than the company because at least the company sticks to the policy they have and enforce it.

As for the injuries I recently read several articles by Jim Cornette and from what he said these writers that are hired know nothing of professional wrestling and make outlandish moves that are more dangerous than they need to be and cause more injuries than needed to try to make big pops from the crowd. The result, injured wrestlers and no more fans coming to see events than they had before. Many people have even stopped watching wrestling because of the outlandish crap they make these guys do. I personally have stopped watching the WWE do to the poor product and hope that one day I can watch REAL WRESTLING again. So in my opinion injuries that cause crippling and death of wrestlers are on two people, Vince McMahon because he approves the crap coming from the writers and Stephanie Lavesque (McMahon) who doesn't want to do anything to disappoint daddy or her inherritence and hires the morons that come up with the crap. The injuries you cant fault the wrestlers for, that falls on the two people in charge of the booker and writers.

 

[Milkyway!]

Oh come on people, are we really going to defend Vince McMahon on this one?

I sure am.

Obviously you can't directly blame the man, he didn't technically force anyone to use drugs,

Exactly, the WWE does not force them to take drugs, therefore to blaim it on the WWE is ******ed. Umaga nor Test either one were in the WWE when their deaths occured, and hadn't been for quite some time.

but to say that he doesn't demand an absolutely insane amount of dedication and service as well as a spectacular physical appearance is simply wrong.

Whats wrong with that? Don't nearly all sports require spectacular physical appearance and dedication? The arguement could be made that its just entertainment, but to be taken seriously these men NEED to be in spectacular physical appearance. Could you imagine a bunch of Chris Harris' running around in spandex trying to hide their beer belly?

You think John Cena would have gotten his chance at the big time if he didn't have the right muscled look?

One thing that makes John Cena so popular is his outstanding looks. The guy has the body that every little girl dreams of their "man" to have. Listen to the crouds Xfear, Children, and women eat John Cena up. If he didn't have the outstanding appearance he has, he wouldn't have made it out of the midcard, simply because the children and women wouldn't eat out of the palm of his hands.

In the old days it was the fuckin' Wild West in those locker rooms, McMahon himself and almost every other wrestler was either using steroids, snorting cocaine, or taking a wide variety of pills

Yes, I'm positive that occured. But during the times at which these men were doing things, the WWE should be held responsible for THOSE men's deaths. But, now that the Wellness Policy exsists, its ALL on the wrestler.

I mean, no, you can't say Vince is responsible for anyone's death, that's not fair.

He was in no shape, form, or fasion responsible for the death of Umaga, Gurrerro, Test, nor Benoit. That was ALL them.

He does however have absolutely insane standards that's prone to leading his wrestlers to drugs. Why do you think guys like Guerrero and Benoit were eating up the 'roids and pain pills? Because they had to look their best 24/7 and go out on the road and wrestle 200+ days of the year.

Congragulations? You got yourself into the bussiness, now you take responsiblity for the standards that were set by guys like Buddy Rogers, Killer Kowalski, Hulk Hogan, Bruno Sammartino, and your filll those standards. Excuse Vince Mcmahon for trying to fill those mens shoes, and reach new heights never reached by the wrestling world. These standards were set years ago, by the wrestling world, and the wrestler should be made well aware of what hes getting himself into, before he gets himself into that sort of mess.

McMahon may not be directly responsible in any way for an individual's death, but he has certainly contributed to the drug use that led to the premature deaths of many wrestlers over the years.

McMahon isn't responsible in any manner whatsoever these days. This arguement could have been made about 10 years ago, but today? No way.

This has happened all over the business though, so it's not just McMahon's problem, it's pro wrestling's problem.

Its not just pro wrestling's problem. Its the world's problem. You read of Teenagers, and young men/women dying daily due to Overdosing on drugs. Theres nothing we can do to stop people from voluntarily taking drugs, and to hold one man responsible, simply because he is in charge of the biggest wrestling company to date. Is simply absurd.

 

[bazza21]

i have not looked at all the posts on this subject but i need to just say what i feel question does the wwe have blood on its hands and are they responsible for the deaths of wrestlers answer NO eddie fatu is the most recent in a long line of wrestlers to die too young and although it is sad and my thoughts go out to his family the wwe is not to blame the question should not even be considered correct me if i am wrong but he also wrestled for tna at one point so does tna have blood on their hands or heres one for you as his last job came from hulk my toilet seat has been stolen hogan does he have blood on his hands the answer is no bottom line no as always when a wrestler dies the wwe is put in the spotlight and this question is asked and the list is always put out (rick rude hawk latino heat miss elizabeth crash holly british bulldog benoit and in the link to this very thread louie spicolli and chris candido ) and its stupid 1 as it has already been said benoit snapped and killed himself reports stated his brain was that of an 80 year old which was caused by years of headshots and roids was wwe to blame no he was in japan ecw and wcw before wwe

candido was cused through a blood clot from what i can remember the likes of rude hawk eddie g all were on drugs before they got to the wwe and it took its toll crash holly was depressed and took a cocktail of drink and drugs from what i read on this site and miss elizabeth was on drugs after wwe

when benoit died alot of news sites listed many wrestlers who had died too soon and asked was vince and the wwe to blame for their deaths and some of them never worked for the wwe i think its time we took a step back and end this when a wrestler dies instead of asking dumb questions like is the wwe tna ufc ect to blame maybe just maybe we should just remember them and think of their familys
well thats my 2 cents for what its worth

 

[jazzua]

Oh come on people, are we really going to defend Vince McMahon on this one? Obviously you can't directly blame the man, he didn't technically force anyone to use drugs, but to say that he doesn't demand an absolutely insane amount of dedication and service as well as a spectacular physical appearance is simply wrong. You think John Cena would have gotten his chance at the big time if he didn't have the right muscled look? Keep dreaming. Obviously there are cases where extraordinary talent shines through despite their size (your Rey Mysterio's and Ric Flair's) but for the most part McMahon has always looked for people with extraordinary body mass and muscles. This is the man who started the World Bodybuilding Federation after all. In the old days it was the fuckin' Wild West in those locker rooms, McMahon himself and almost every other wrestler was either using steroids, snorting cocaine, or taking a wide variety of pills (not to mention rampant alcoholism), but it wasn't just in the WWF, it was all over the globe (with the exception of Japan perhaps).

I mean, no, you can't say Vince is responsible for anyone's death, that's not fair. He does however have absolutely insane standards that's prone to leading his wrestlers to drugs. Why do you think guys like Guerrero and Benoit were eating up the 'roids and pain pills? Because they had to look their best 24/7 and go out on the road and wrestle 200+ days of the year. McMahon may not be directly responsible in any way for an individual's death, but he has certainly contributed to the drug use that led to the premature deaths of many wrestlers over the years. This has happened all over the business though, so it's not just McMahon's problem, it's pro wrestling's problem.

X, even though my above comments may not follow this thought, I do agree with you hear. But I would like one question asnwered and maybe you can take a stab at it, no one else really seems able to. We all know what Vince expects. We know he demands way more than he should. Someone stated it's a moral obligation. God forbid we aren't getting into morals here. I don't think morals have existed since adultry was invented. Anyhow, I agree with your point. He certainly does guide his performers into the direction of drug use by what he expects them to look like, and the schedule he expects them to work.

I'm not sure what your stance is on this next question, but weigh in please. Should we expect these adults, as in all wrestlers, to make sound decisions about their own health, in their own mind. Take everything out of the equation. Money, fame, success, and pride and what do you have left? You have one man making a decision to please one man. I understand they make alot of money and that would be hard to walk on. However, these guys weren't alwys making that kind of money. Wrestling is definately a passion, and there is something about it that makes it hard for these guys to walk away. But are we really going to sit here and pretend that these guys aren't completely responsible for themselves and what they do to their bodies? Really?

I'm not even defending Vince and the WWE on this. As stated through this thread there are so many situations just like this in the world. Modeling most likely the best comparison. This really goes any way you want it. It's just going to depend on how one sees it. I see clear as day the issues Vince puts on his performers. Any promoter, puts on his performers. One can't argue with the logic that you may have to take drugs to perform at that level and to maintain your body. Considering that, my question was how do you see it in this context.

Should we not expect men of an adult mind, to be able to make healthy choices for themselves? Would you jump off of a bridge just because your best friend told you to?

 

[X]

X, even though my above comments may not follow this thought, I do agree with you hear. But I would like one question asnwered and maybe you can take a stab at it, no one else really seems able to.

Sure, I'll take a crack at it.

I'm not sure what your stance is on this next question, but weigh in please. Should we expect these adults, as in all wrestlers, to make sound decisions about their own health, in their own mind. Take everything out of the equation. Money, fame, success, and pride and what do you have left? You have one man making a decision to please one man. I understand they make alot of money and that would be hard to walk on. However, these guys weren't alwys making that kind of money. Wrestling is definately a passion, and there is something about it that makes it hard for these guys to walk away. But are we really going to sit here and pretend that these guys aren't completely responsible for themselves and what they do to their bodies? Really?

Of course they are responsible for what they do to their bodies, I'm not trying to dispute that, and like I said before, you can't directly blame McMahon for anyone's death, that isn't fair. But he definitely exacerbated the drug use that led to so many of his employee's deaths.

I mean, look at it like this. You're finally getting the biggest push of your career, but suddenly you've injured yourself. Instead of rehabbing that injury and taking time off and killing your push, you eat up those steroids and pain pills to fight through the pain and get that push, because this is your one big chance. What else can you do? You can sit out and let that injury heal naturally, but odds are there goes your push out the window. For alot of these guys they might never get another chance like that. Take Chris Benoit, when he won the World Title in 2004 he must've been shitting bricks that it was FINALLY his time in the lime light after nearly twenty years, and he knew if one thing went wrong, whoop, there goes his push. Which is eventually what happened as he was quickly relegated to the midcard again.

I'm not even defending Vince and the WWE on this. As stated through this thread there are so many situations just like this in the world. Modeling most likely the best comparison. This really goes any way you want it. It's just going to depend on how one sees it. I see clear as day the issues Vince puts on his performers. Any promoter, puts on his performers. One can't argue with the logic that you may have to take drugs to perform at that level and to maintain your body. Considering that, my question was how do you see it in this context.

Should we not expect men of an adult mind, to be able to make healthy choices for themselves? Would you jump off of a bridge just because your best friend told you to?

See but you're bringing ration and logic into a discussion involving drug addiction, which is something you simply can't do. For alot of these guys, it isn't a choice of "Don't do drugs and be healthy", it's either take those pills to feel somewhat normal and be able to do your job without dying of pain, or you're screwed. Look at what happened to Jeff Hardy, why do you think he became such a habitual drug addict? It's because he knew the only way he was going to get over to the big time in the WWE was by destroying his body with HUGE bumps, each time having to one-up himself more and more and more. I wouldn't be surprised if Jeff Hardy simply had to take Oxycontin just to be able to function through a day without aching and searing pain all over his body. And you think Vince cares about his pain? Not at all, these guys don't even get health insurance. They destroy their bodies for Vince for 200+ days a year on the possibly worst schedule that anyone could work.

Yes, at the end of the day, we cannot directly blame Vince McMahon for anyone's death. But he without a doubt helped foster an environment that has set unreasonable standards which has led to rampant drug abuse, very much like the modeling business you just brought up. No one is forcing those women to be anorexic or bulimic, but it's either that, or they can fall to the back of the line in a industry that's entirely dedicated to physical appearance, just like wrestling.

 

[It's...Baylariat!]

I see this is two different questions, so I'm going to try to give different answers to both.

1) Does the WWE have blood on their hands?

Yes. Yes they do. In a dog eat dog world, if you're wounded and you have to heal, you lose your spot. That's how the industry's worked for ages. The only solution to keeping a push while enduring a lot of pain due to an injury is to simply pop painkillers and steroids to fight through a match. The WWE doesn't say this exactly, but if you decide to take time off to heal, you lose your spot. Plain and simple. You lose momentum, you lose the heat you had, and you lose out on lots of money. Out of sight, out of mind is a huge motto that has to be lived by in wrestling, much less the WWE, the biggest wrestling company in the world. So yes, the WWE has blood on their hands. Or else we'd see more wrestlers alive today. Someone has to tell them to stop instead of saying, 'It's up to you.'

2) Are the WWE responsible for the deaths of wrestlers?

I can't fault the WWE here. The wrestlers make the decision on whether to take that risk to heal up or not. The WWE offers programs to rehab from drugs and even covers expenses to treat major injuries. Basically, if you get hurt, the WWE's got you covered. If you want to push along and not show any forbearance on the situation, then that's on the wrestler. If I'm injured and I know I can't go at a 100 percent and I'm in a lot of pain, I would have no choice but to get well. Even if I had a belt, I'd rather be 100 percent and work mid-card than be 50 percent and work the main event. How else would anyone enjoy it? You make it to the top, yet you're so numb, you can't feel anything except dull pain. It would make me even more miserable. The wrestler makes the decision to wrestle with their injury and their addiction. The WWE offers help now and it's up to the wrestler to get that help.

Hope I answered this alright.

 

[Toroc102]

Exactly, the WWE does not force them to take drugs, therefore to blaim it on the WWE is ******ed. Umaga nor Test either one were in the WWE when their deaths occured, and hadn't been for quite some time."

Yeah, they weren't in the WWE for what 1-2 years at the most, Umaga died of a heart attack, thats the culmilation of a lifestyle, he didn't overdose on pills, although who knows he was probably addicted to them too.

Test did die of an addiction to painkillers. WHY ARE SO MANY WRESTLER ADDICTED TO PAINKILLERS? Their are many loopholes in the Wellness Policy that allow wrestlers to get the painkillers they want.

Whats wrong with that? Don't nearly all sports require spectacular physical appearance and dedication? The arguement could be made that its just entertainment, but to be taken seriously these men NEED to be in spectacular physical appearance. Could you imagine a bunch of Chris Harris' running around in spandex trying to hide their beer belly?

No, NO sports require physical appearance as a part of their jobs, none, if you are good enough to play any sport, then you play the sport no matter what you look like. Wrestlers first job seems to be Male modeling. Look at UFC guys, boxers, basketball stars, especially baseball and football stars, these guys are not cut like WWE stars are, being that way would be a detriment in their own sports, the much muscle makes it a lot harder to be flexible and makes you much more suseptible to muscle tears and other similar injuries. Chris Harris was a different story, he went from very cut to looking like a slob. They don't need to be that cut, if they wrestled good matches and cut good promo's having a well toned physique would be enough.

One thing that makes John Cena so popular is his outstanding looks. The guy has the body that every little girl dreams of their "man" to have. Listen to the crouds Xfear, Children, and women eat John Cena up. If he didn't have the outstanding appearance he has, he wouldn't have made it out of the midcard, simply because the children and women wouldn't eat out of the palm of his hands."

NO he wouldn't have made it out of the midcard because he wouldn't look comparible to most other Main-Event WWE superstars. Look at Ric Flair, he was never the most cut guy but the women always went wild anyway. You think McMahon would ever put someone like Ric Flair over nowadays, someone that got over on his Wrestling talent and mic skills alone, can't remember the last time "The Look" wasn't a big factor.

Yes, I'm positive that occured. But during the times at which these men were doing things, the WWE should be held responsible for THOSE men's deaths. But, now that the Wellness Policy exsists, its ALL on the wrestler."

The Wellness Policy is such a farce, as I mentioned it is still easy to get a shady doctor to sign off on many of the "prohibited medications up to any amount". Does anyone find it funny that Main-Eventers seem to never be tested. Orton is the only one that has been publicly outed and according to WZ.com

"Randy Orton is sitting on one strike. In August 2006, he was quietly suspended for 30 days for his first violation of the company's drug testing policy — reportedly due to a drug test failure. Starting in September 2004 through February 2007, Orton received somatropin, nandrolone and stanozolol. In August 2007, company officials reasoned that Orton had already served his punishment due to his drug policy violation from the prior year — thus he was not suspended. However, Orton continued receiving pharmaceuticals through February 2007 — well past the date of his initial drug test failure."

Lol, the one public Main-Eventer tested(please don't come and tell me Rey is on Orton's level, Orton is part of Vince's future)and they find a loophole to keep him off his second strike, I mean whats going on? Apparently Edge was found to have violated the policy as well, but I can't find much evidence of a suspension, maybe because he was injured at the time, huh close one there.

Vince made the Wellness Policy in order to appease the government and it still isn't working because they're still investigating it. Seems to have fooled just about everyone on this forum though since everyone automatically says, well he has a Wellness Policy now everything is golden.

"He was in no shape, form, or fasion responsible for the death of Umaga, Gurrerro, Test, nor Benoit. That was ALL them."

Yep that was all them, sure lets not ignore the fact that neither Benoit or Guererro were getting the pushes they got before they got on the juice, or before they started taking a hell of a lot more of it. Naw Test wasn't a lot more ripped when he came back to ECW then he was in his previous stint with the company.

"McMahon isn't responsible in any manner whatsoever these days. This arguement could have been made about 10 years ago, but today? No way."

Why not, you do realize that there was a steroid scandal about 18 years ago and Vince instituted a policy then as well, its kind've one of the reason you saw guys like Bret Hart and Shawn Michaels getting into the spotlight after years of Hulk/Warrior/Macho Man. Eventually Vince decided it wasn't cost feasible anymore so he trashed it, keeping in mind that this policy was not "really" his choice. He got taken to court, Hogan made some damaging testimony, and then Vince instituted a policy. This time Guerrero died, Vince thought, uh oh shitball waiting to happen, and decided that it was time to introduce his altruistic Wellness Policy.

"Its not just pro wrestling's problem. Its the world's problem. You read of Teenagers, and young men/women dying daily due to Overdosing on drugs. Theres nothing we can do to stop people from voluntarily taking drugs, and to hold one man responsible, simply because he is in charge of the biggest wrestling company to date. Is simply absurd.

Yeah when it happens to teenagers usually parents take a lot of the blame for it. Sure it was the kids decision to take the drugs and their parents tried to steer them away but they still get blamed. Imagine if, wherever you worked, 1 or 2 people that used to work there died, every year for five years. After the 5th year people would start to connect dots, "what is it about this place that people are looking to drugs?" Imagine if this was happenning in baseball, they are going crazy just because people are taking them. You've never heard the news guys talking about this stuff, talking about if we don't stop this before long baseballs going to look like the WWE?

The WWE has a Wellness Policy, BIG WHOOP! They still haven't changed any of the things that are making people take the drugs in the first place, they are just firing the guys after they've gotten addicted, LETS ALL PAT THEM ON THE BACK.

 

[jazzua]

Sure, I'll take a crack at it.

Of course they are responsible for what they do to their bodies, I'm not trying to dispute that, and like I said before, you can't directly blame McMahon for anyone's death, that isn't fair. But he definitely exacerbated the drug use that led to so many of his employee's deaths.

I totally agree with you here. As I stated as well, Everyone knows the kind of stress he puts his performers under. You can almost ask how it's possible for them to not take drugs to survive. But that, again, is where I, in my head, continually come back to the fact that they still decided to do the drugs. Therefore, can we even really say he perpetuated it. Are they the sheep to his shepherd? Looks like.

I mean, look at it like this. You're finally getting the biggest push of your career, but suddenly you've injured yourself. Instead of rehabbing that injury and taking time off and killing your push, you eat up those steroids and pain pills to fight through the pain and get that push, because this is your one big chance. What else can you do? You can sit out and let that injury heal naturally, but odds are there goes your push out the window. For alot of these guys they might never get another chance like that. Take Chris Benoit, when he won the World Title in 2004 he must've been shitting bricks that it was FINALLY his time in the lime light after nearly twenty years, and he knew if one thing went wrong, whoop, there goes his push. Which is eventually what happened as he was quickly relegated to the midcard again.

Perfect! But again, this is where we run into the problem of them deciding whats most important. I can't answer this question. You know what, I'd probably take the steroids and pain killers myself. I don't know how you couldn't. This, is where the promoter gets that evil eye from Marc Mero. I guess it's still hard to look at the possible future you may have, and compare it to the possible outcome the drugs may have. It's too bad. I think of all the great memories these people have given and start to think it's somewhat our fault as well. If it's considered Vinces fault in any way, then we have to take some of it home with us as well.

See but you're bringing ration and logic into a discussion involving drug addiction, which is something you simply can't do. For alot of these guys, it isn't a choice of "Don't do drugs and be healthy", it's either take those pills to feel somewhat normal and be able to do your job without dying of pain, or you're screwed. Look at what happened to Jeff Hardy, why do you think he became such a habitual drug addict? It's because he knew the only way he was going to get over to the big time in the WWE was by destroying his body with HUGE bumps, each time having to one-up himself more and more and more. I wouldn't be surprised if Jeff Hardy simply had to take Oxycontin just to be able to function through a day without aching and searing pain all over his body. And you think Vince cares about his pain? Not at all, these guys don't even get health insurance. They destroy their bodies for Vince for 200+ days a year on the possibly worst schedule that anyone could work.

On this I just can't bring myself to fully agree. While I obviously understand the logic and see the point, I will have to argue that these guys do know what this business is and will do to them. Before any of these fellows tasted any sort of fame they took some bumps in a crappy ring to see what was what. They took some training and got their asses kicked to find out if they could handle this line of work. They made the decision to go forward and whatever comes of that is their problem. Now, does Vince care? Ha, no. You are beyond right. He should. These are the guys that make him millions. I know I would be willing to shell out a few mill a year for insurance purposes for that.

My brother is a drug addict. He falls back on any excuse possible to describe his addiction. None of them involve himself personally. He is a grown man who is too childish to take his own. He blames work, society, family, and anything he can. I look at this in the same light. He has had some hard times and his excuses seem logical. However, who hasn't. When I compare, the difference is the obvious choice of work lifestyle. But then again, it is a choice. I still feel there is definately a finality in the fact that these men decide to go to work everyday. They are way more addicted to the industry then they are to any drug.

Yes, at the end of the day, we cannot directly blame Vince McMahon for anyone's death. But he without a doubt helped foster an environment that has set unreasonable standards which has led to rampant drug abuse, very much like the modeling business you just brought up. No one is forcing those women to be anorexic or bulimic, but it's either that, or they can fall to the back of the line in a industry that's entirely dedicated to physical appearance, just like wrestling.

And thats just it. The real discussion here is whether these men want to lose their spot or maintain their push, or spot. I agree that Vince has an effect. I don't agree he holds any of the deaths by drugs personally in his hands. In the end I still can't get away from the fact that these men openly do what they do. The business used to pay shit, and men still took drugs. Maybe there is a correlation between drug abuse and violence. I'm thinking there is. Maybe, the type of person drawn to the business is more prone to drugs? Is anyone a psychologist? What if he really liked fat guys? Would we be having this same discussion about cholesterol? Heart attacks? Thats something to think about.

 

[BladeRunner]

My brother is a drug addict. He falls back on any excuse possible to describe his addiction. None of them involve himself personally. He is a grown man who is too childish to take his own. He blames work, society, family, and anything he can. I look at this in the same light. He has had some hard times and his excuses seem logical. However, who hasn't. When I compare, the difference is the obvious choice of work lifestyle. But then again, it is a choice.

I guess we gotta go real deep with this topic. Do you think your brother wants to be a drug addict? Addiction is probably the most powerful thing that can overtake a man. It makes a person think that they need said addiction like they need water or food. Have you ever been addicted to anything? If you haven't, you might not know what it feels like.

The excuses will be what they will. People have a motivation, and then they come up with a "reasoning" to make their motivation seem "logical". But that's how everything works. You like something, and then you come up with a reason why you like something.

Yes addiction is a choice, but the choice of quitting is an incredibly hard one to make. Imagine the idea of going without food or water or air. That's what an addict feels like when he tries to quit something.

And thats just it. The real discussion here is whether these men want to lose their spot or maintain their push, or spot. I agree that Vince has an effect. I don't agree he holds any of the deaths by drugs personally in his hands. In the end I still can't get away from the fact that these men openly do what they do. The business used to pay shit, and men still took drugs. Maybe there is a correlation between drug abuse and violence. I'm thinking there is. Maybe, the type of person drawn to the business is more prone to drugs? Is anyone a psychologist? What if he really liked fat guys? Would we be having this same discussion about cholesterol? Heart attacks? Thats something to think about.

I think you're on to something here. Whatever is called for in the business, is what people will strive for. Do people make mistakes all the time? Yes. And they'll sometimes do some extreme things if they think it will make their career better.

People CAN beat all of these mental illnesses, which is really what the abuse of drugs is all about. What I'm trying to get through to you though, is that it's more than a choice, in that it's like a holding your breath long enough to realize you can breathe without breathing. If that makes any sense as a metaphor. These people have a bodily motivated feeling, that they have to defeat through sheer willpower. And it takes a very intense willpower to beat addiction.

The reason I can say these things is because I smoked cigarettes for 8 years and then quit.

 

[jazzua]

I guess we gotta go real deep with this topic. Do you think your brother wants to be a drug addict? Addiction is probably the most powerful thing that can overtake a man. It makes a person think that they need said addiction like they need water or food. Have you ever been addicted to anything? If you haven't, you might not know what it feels like.

The excuses will be what they will. People have a motivation, and then they come up with a "reasoning" to make their motivation seem "logical". But that's how everything works. You like something, and then you come up with a reason why you like something.

Yes addiction is a choice, but the choice of quitting is an incredibly hard one to make. Imagine the idea of going without food or water or air. That's what an addict feels like when he tries to quit something.




I think you're on to something here. Whatever is called for in the business, is what people will strive for. Do people make mistakes all the time? Yes. And they'll sometimes do some extreme things if they think it will make their career better.

People CAN beat all of these mental illnesses, which is really what the abuse of drugs is all about. What I'm trying to get through to you though, is that it's more than a choice, in that it's like a holding your breath long enough to realize you can breathe without breathing. If that makes any sense as a metaphor. These people have a bodily motivated feeling, that they have to defeat through sheer willpower. And it takes a very intense willpower to beat addiction.

The reason I can say these things is because I smoked cigarettes for 8 years and then quit.

IT is funny. We are slowly getting of topic in a manner of speaking. Going from the deaths of wrestling into a discussion about drug addiction. But, as X had stated that is what we are really talking about. Such a touchy little guy though isn't it? I strongly believe one can't truly no how another feels, yet we will always try to. As a smoker for 11 years myself, I can understand the difficulty in trying to quit an addiction. Smoking, considered easily one of the more difficult of habits to stop, eats away at you, makes you feel less of you are. Yet, I have no experience in an addiction in which quitting may cost me my career. However, I am focusing more on the initial decision. I agree, once these guys are in, they are pretty much screwed. The day they start the roids or pain killers or whatever, they have started down a road they might not recover from.

That's what makes this topic so interesting and debatable. It's difficult. Do we really believe, at least now, that Vince wants to see these people die so very young because of something he could have prevented? I would hope to say no. But, if he truly felt that way, he should turn their Wellness policy into a true Wellness policy.

The more you talk about it the more you begin to feel as though the business just eats them up and spits them out. And that is accurate. I would say that worse decision some of these men make is to compete in the first place. There is no other line of work that demands what wrestling demands of it's employees. There is no end to this discussion, but it sure is an interesting one. Green rep to the op.

 

[Ambiguous Turd]

I just wanted to post that apparently, there was some confusion (and I have to admit, that I have never seen WWE actually address this topic before), about what would happen if someone were to be let go for having 3 strikes with the Wellness Policy ... and they would like to return to the company.

Here is the official WWE statement on the matter (from another wrestling news site):

"Any WWE talent who leaves the WWE for any reason with a first or second violation on his/her record will maintain those strikes if he/she returns to the WWE."

The policy also states: "A WWE Talent who is terminated by the WWE for a third violation will be prohibited from returning to the WWE for at least one year."

Where as I am happy to see that strikes still remain on the record of WWE superstars who return to the company, because they rightfully should ..... I am not in favor of superstars being allowed to return to the company after they are terminated, in a one year time period. I recognize the fact that time and age is imperative, however I feel that 2 years is more appropriate than a simple one year off.

I do agree that it's wrong to say that the talent can NEVER return to the company, if they get 3 strikes, because if they actually get off the steroids/painkillers etc., than this is just a waste to have them sitting home and not working in the business any longer, if the person actually has talent and IS clean.

But I think there should be a more harsh policy, than a simple one year off, as I think it is too short a punishment.

Where as I assume that IF they return, they are gone after the first offense, I am a little concerned that they didn't outright specify this in their statement. I don't want to see them giving superstars a fresh start with another 3 strikes.


As far as whether the WWE has blood on their hands ... in the cases of steroid abuse ... this really comes down to a matter of ethics on the part of each individual. If you think that companies are responsible for creating an immense amount of pressure on individuals to "look a certain way" and "have a certain appearance", then sure ... Vince can be found guilty of that.

It also doesn't help when the CEO himself is taking steroids, as this sets an absolutely terrible example for the rest of the talent to follow and Vince should be ashamed of himself. How many 60 some year olds do you know that look like him?

But if you feel that the individual is responsible for his/her own actions, then obviously you are going to side with the company-- As you feel that nobody is forcing that person to do anything .... except have their job threatened and given to someone else who will "do what it takes to have the look needed".

It all comes down to a matter of individual ethics and corporate responsibility.

 

[jazzua]

Thanks for that Sidious. I always thought that if they hit their third strike they were gone for good. Yet another loop hole in how it is described. I distinctly remember an interview where vince stated the third strike bans them for life, or maybe I made that up, lol. It does beg the question as to what happens upon re-instatment. I agree it should be longer then one year. Part of me thinks that they probably allow them to have three strikes again, maybe with double the suspension time or something. They should be gone on the first strike after returning though.

Thought this was interesting. JR's updated blog.

Jim Ross has updated his blog over at JRsBarBQ.com. Below are some highlights:

"Concussions are a big issue in sports today and let's not forget that pro wrestling/sports entertainment or whatever in the hell one wants to call it doesn't have the franchise on this dilemma. However, chair shots to the skull should be forbidden in wrestling. Period. End of story. Bottom line."

"Eddie Fatu's funeral services are later in the week in Las Vegas. If you want to send flowers or cards you can call the Davis Funeral Home at 702-736-6200."

"I do encourage all wrestling organizations to instill as stringent a testing program as is possible for concussions, heart issues, etc and to monitor how many days an individual is booked either monthly or annually. Plus, establishing a zero tolerance policy regarding drug abuse is a gimme. Being in the wrestling business should be a privilege not one's right. If one accepts the glory and money one can earn as a successful wrestler in a major company then they should have no issue being a good citizen and living a clean life."


Though mostly about Fatu, it does mention a slight stance on this subject. It seem as though he may feel similar to many here. JR seems to think that promotions also need to do what they can to help talent. Such as a lighter schedule or what not.

 

[Kenny Powers]

I think one way to look at being a pro wrestler is like being a Marine. Especially if you work the hectic WWE schedule. Marines signed up to do a job that requires intense physical and emotional strain, so did wrestlers. You can blame the government for Marines being homeless or for them suffering from Post Traumatic Stress Disorder. You could blame the Marine too I guess since the job requires a lot of him. Not all wrestlers are coke heads or alcoholics. Most of them get addicted to pain pills, because that is the only way they can get out of bed in the morning.

After sending the same Marines overseas to long deployments year after year, you can't say the government isn't a bit responsible for their welfare. Just like Vince didn't tell superstars to take drugs, but if you want to look the best or be the best you have to have them to succeed sometimes.

The reason wrestling is different from boxing or the NFL is because they have off seasons. If Tom Brady gets hurt, he can rest on the sidelines or at home while another Quarterback takes a shot. He is replaced, but he doesn't lose his job. It's different in wrestling because if someone like Benoit or Angle who were receiving a huge push and payday at Wrestlemania. Kurt wrestled with a broken neck. There is no way he could of put on a performance without drugs.

It's worst for older wrestlers like Kevin Nash. Nash was injured so much it eventually lead to him losing his job. The same with Mr. Kennedy. Vince doesn't give contracts, only opportunities. If someone is injured, someone else can easily take their place. WWE and pro wrestling may not be as hectic now as it was 20 years ago when people were on the road over 300 days a year.

The Wellness Policy in WWE contradicts itself because there is a no tolerance policy for drug use. However, in order to be a superstar you have to have the look, wrestle injured, be on the road over 200 days a year, and be drug free? Impossible. Wrestlers may be able to stay away from alcohol and illegal drugs, but prescription drugs is another story altogether.

 

[Kesteral]

Taking a different look at this. I can only imagine how much heat you would get for turning down something like a chair shot to the head or going through a table as a rookie. If you are still forced to do it, which is pretty much a no brainer, then I'm sure the reprecussions would be terrible. Perhaps other wrestlers would start working a little bit stiffer with you or bookers wouldn't give you a chance. I doubt any wrestlers who have sense would actually explain their fears to peers about getting a concussion, it just becomes part of the job.

I think perhaps one of the reasons wrestlers become so burned out and eventually injured is that they're too afraid of losing respect around their fellow wrestlers to speak up. That's the only way I can see the WWE having blood on their hands, because of the immense pressure these guys put on themselves to perform and do anything for the fans. Then again, it's only a few wrestlers in truth that have died young. What about the thousands of other wrestlers who have put up with the same schedule and gone on to live long lives. I definately think that chair shots are hit a lot harder now, but it's clear that some people do swing a lot harder than others, and you're not always going to get a JBL style shot.

Although most people talk about steroids when it comes to wrestlers health, chair shots and big bumps must take their toll more than people think. Test apparantely had brain damage before he died, similiar to Benoits and you can't really get that while taking drugs. If there wasn't such a nut up or shut up attitude in wrestling then perhaps the niggling injuries now could be taken care of before they turn into potentially deadly ones in the future. But I don't think it's going to happen.

So who's to blame? The bookers for telling them what to do, or the wrestlers for putting up with it no matter what unless you have a hand in a higher up's back pocket. Well probably a bit of both, but something has to be done soon about the situation because if more young high profile ex or current WWE wrestlers die in the next few years the WWE will have a serious problem.

 

[Jack-Hammer]

If one wants to be a professional wrestler, particularly a professional wrestler that works for a big company like the WWE, there are certain inherant risks involved that one MUST accept. A company as big as the WWE is going to have a pretty intense schedule and that's all there is to it. It has such an intense schedule because it's the biggest and most successful company in the world at what it does. The WWE isn't going to apologize for its success and for its continued success, nor should it be expected to in any way.

For all the various aches and pains and injuries that one is bound to suffer from working such a schedule, prescription drugs are something that can't be avoided. There's nothing wrong with prescription medication if: A. a wrestler actually needs to take it due to the wear and tear of the road, B. a wrestler has valid and legal prescriptions for every such drug that they're taking and C. a wrestler uses the medication the way it's supposed to be used.

Take Rey Mysterio for instance. He was right in the middle of a great IC title run and was suspended for a Wellness Policy violation. Now, according to Mysterio he had a valid prescription. I don't know whether he did or not, but it was his responsibility to inform the higher ups that he was taking a new medication that they weren't aware of and he didn't do that. When it came to Umaga, he failed the policy a second time and that meant he had to go into a mandatory rehabilitation program. He refused, so the WWE had to cover its own ass by wishing him the best and terminating his employment.

When it comes to what a wrestler does while they're away from the ring and the arena, there's a fine line. On one hand, the WWE has to watch out for the investment it makes in these wrestlers, but it can't go around policing their lives. Where does concern end and violation of privacy begin? There's only so much that the WWE can do when it comes to the health of its wrestlers.

When it comes to injuries sustained in the ring, well that's just part of wrestling. Injury is as much a part of pro wrestling as g-strings are to strippers. It's a face of life that there's no getting around. The WWE has cut wrestlers loose in the past and it does come across as heartless sometimes, no doubt. But, on the other hand, the WWE isn't nursery school, it's a multi-hundred million dollar a year business.

If the WWE is responsible, then so are the Crocketts, the Gagnes, the Von Erichs, the Grahams, the Funks, the Briscos, the Fullers, the Jarretts and just about every other major name and promotion associated with pro wrestling over the past 70 years.

 

[Remix]

I think one way to look at being a pro wrestler is like being a Marine. Especially if you work the hectic WWE schedule. Marines signed up to do a job that requires intense physical and emotional strain, so did wrestlers.

I'm a big fan of drawing paralells. I'm interested to see where you're going with this.

You can blame the government for Marines being homeless or for them suffering from Post Traumatic Stress Disorder.

yes, you could. However there's a distinct choice between choosing to take drugs and unwillingly losing your house or getting PTSD

You could blame the Marine too I guess since the job requires a lot of him. Not all wrestlers are coke heads or alcoholics. Most of them get addicted to pain pills, because that is the only way they can get out of bed in the morning.

yes, I can understand that. However if you have a problem and refuse to seek help then that's your own damn fault. refusing help lost Kurt Angle, Umaga and Jeff Hardy their jobs (twise, in Jeff's case). If you have a drug problem and you're being told by the guy paying you (is there a term for what WWE is to the wrestlers. they're not employees, they're indipendant contractors, after all) to go to rehab or lose your job and you pick the latter then it's your own fault that you lose your job and possibly end up dying from your addictions

After sending the same Marines overseas to long deployments year after year, you can't say the government isn't a bit responsible for their welfare.

Yes, the government is responsible for the Marine's welfare. However if a Marine is suffering from PTSD and doesnt report it for whatever reason, and aformentioned PTSD affects the marine in the field, the government couldnt have done anything to prevent it, as it dodnt know ther was a problem. If it did it could have done sometihng to help, but if the marine refused help you wouldnt say its the governemt's fault that the marine got fired.

Just like Vince didn't tell superstars to take drugs, but if you want to look the best or be the best you have to have them to succeed sometimes.

When did Umaga ever look the best? He was overweight (not faulting him for it) athletic guy wearing war paint. he didnt need steroids to maintain that. I could also point out that Lance Storm and C. M. Punk didnt/dont take drugs, and still manage(d) to be high on the card, so obviously drugs arent required.

The reason wrestling is different from boxing or the NFL is because they have off seasons.

and pro wrestling is fixed. cant forget about that.

If Tom Brady gets hurt, he can rest on the sidelines or at home while another Quarterback takes a shot. He is replaced, but he doesn't lose his job.

I'll take your word on that. I dont follow sports. However, it's not like wrestlers don't take time off when they need to. UT gats anual surgury, HBK gets months off too, Edge is out on injury and Helms spent a year off aswell. The only time a wrestler should be working injured is if said injury is of the sort that a pro footballer would be expected to play through.

It's different in wrestling because if someone like Benoit or Angle who were receiving a huge push and payday at Wrestlemania. Kurt wrestled with a broken neck. There is no way he could of put on a performance without drugs.

Kurt Angle's nuts. He wrestled in the olympics with a broken neck. he also continued to wrestle a match after riping multiple muscles off the bone, and after being released for 'we dont want you to die, so please, for the love of god take it easy for a while' reasons went to TNA within a month. The man's a freak of nature. and also, nobody should work with a broken neck in a physical sport such as pro wrestling. Just ask Droz what happens when you get a bad spinal injury. Vince should have insisted on giving Kurt time off to heal (as I doubt Angle was the one wanting time off in that situation. as I say, the man's a freak), and making sure he didnt need to wrestle after taking a bottle of Vicodin (the guy was taking 56 tablets a day).

It's worst for older wrestlers like Kevin Nash.

The older wrestlers shouldn't be working such high risk/physically demanding matches then. It's not as if sports teams dont get rid of their players if they're spending more time on a stretcher than on the pitch.

Nash was injured so much it eventually lead to him losing his job. The same with Mr. Kennedy.

Didn't Kennedy also screw up every chance they gave him, and (allegedly) almost paralyse Orton?

Vince doesn't give contracts, only opportunities.

damnit because I swear he gave out contracts. if a contracted talent screw up or isnt worth the money they're being paid they shoud be fired. I would fire them.

If someone is injured, someone else can easily take their place.

same in any other sport (with a few exceptions).

The Wellness Policy in WWE contradicts itself because there is a no tolerance policy for drug use.

wouldnt two chances to clean up your act and company sponsored rehab count as a tollerance policy?

However, in order to be a superstar you have to have the look, wrestle injured, be on the road over 200 days a year, and be drug free? Impossible.

can I point out CM Punk? And John Cena, and every other wrestler on the roster who hasnt failed a piss test? obviously it is possible.

Wrestlers may be able to stay away from alcohol and illegal drugs, but prescription drugs is another story altogether.

but not everybody on prescription meds get addicted. and not everybody who gets addicted refuses rehab. and wrestlers walking wounded and high are not the sort that should be near the ring. WWE was right to release Umaga and Angle, and it as sure as hell has no blood on its hands over the latter's death.

 

[Milkyway!]

Umaga died of a heart attack, thats the culmilation of a lifestyle, he didn't overdose on pills, although who knows he was probably addicted to them too.

A lifestyle Umaga chose. How is that Vince McMahon's fault? Exactly. Its not. As I said in my previous post.

You got yourself into the bussiness, now you take responsiblity for the standards that were set by guys like Buddy Rogers, Killer Kowalski, Hulk Hogan, Bruno Sammartino, and your filll those standards. Excuse Vince Mcmahon for trying to fill those mens shoes, and reach new heights never reached by the wrestling world. These standards were set years ago, by the wrestling world, and the wrestler should be made well aware of what hes getting himself into, before he gets himself into that sort of mess.

Many professional wrestlers (Such as Ric Flair) have said they do not want their children to enter into the wrestling world. Becuase, it does require top physical shape, and it does often lead to drugs, alcohal, etc...But in the end, yes, the wrestler himself chose this lifestyle, and he choses whether or not to take the drugs. To blaim that on Vince McMahon, is absurd.

Test did die of an addiction to painkillers. WHY ARE SO MANY WRESTLER ADDICTED TO PAINKILLERS? Their are many loopholes in the Wellness Policy that allow wrestlers to get the painkillers they want.

You have the Wellness Policy to prove that? Because I've yet to read it. Wheres the loopholes, go on. Prove it.

No, NO sports require physical appearance as a part of their jobs, none, if you are good enough to play any sport, then you play the sport no matter what you look like.

You're missing a huge point of Wrestling. Its also entertainment. Its a sport, so they have to be in top physical form. But its also entertainment, in which they have to be able to entertain the people. The WWE wants as much money as they possibly can get because they are a business being a business they're going to get as many people as they can to watch the show. Women, want the men to look sexy while they wrestle. Could you imagine having a bunch of males that looked like this?

compared to a bunch of guys that look like this?

You and I both know they're going to want to see John Cena, over a bunch of beer belly'd fat guys.

Look at UFC guys, boxers, basketball stars, especially baseball and football stars, these guys are not cut like WWE stars are, being that way would be a detriment in their own sports

I never said these guys had to look good in order to be good. Babe Ruth denies that logic in any shape form or fasion. I was saying that they have to be in top physical shape to be able to compete with the best, you have to be the best. Part of the wrestling world guidelines does require a nice body figure, because men like Hulk Hogan, Bruno Sammartino, and Killer Kowalski set this standard YEARS ago.

that much muscle makes it a lot harder to be flexible and makes you much more suseptible to muscle tears and other similar injuries.

Uh? As a wrestler (Amatuer) the more muscle, the better. You just have to strech nightly, before, during, and after workouts. If you do this correctly, you will build strong, lean muscle which benefits more than anything.

Chris Harris was a different story, he went from very cut to looking like a slob. They don't need to be that cut, if they wrestled good matches and cut good promo's having a well toned physique would be enough.

Sigh...You just said what I've been trying to say. A well toned physique You really think John Cena is all that cut? No. Hes short, and eats his fair share of meats. Simple as that. We'll call it, the short guy syndrome.

NO he wouldn't have made it out of the midcard because he wouldn't look comparible to most other Main-Event WWE superstars.

Exactly, its a sport. These guys have to look great, and its also entertaining, which requires them to be this "Male model" you speak of.

Look at Ric Flair, he was never the most cut guy but the women always went wild anyway.

Ric Flair had style, class, and during the time he was considered good looking. My mother to this day says Ric Flair is one sexy guy. He looked good, without looking extremely cut. But yes, he was toned, and you could see his muscles. It made him entertaining, and popular with the women.

You think McMahon would ever put someone like Ric Flair over nowadays, someone that got over on his Wrestling talent and mic skills alone, can't remember the last time "The Look" wasn't a big factor.

Well, he certainly doesn't have "The Look". Just look at Rey Mysterio, Jeff Hardy, CM Punk. These are all realitively small guys, that have all been in the main event level, and continue to rise.

The Wellness Policy is such a farce, as I mentioned it is still easy to get a shady doctor to sign off on many of the "prohibited medications up to any amount".

Which is the WRESTLERS FAULT. NOT VINCE MCMAHON'S. If a wrestler is shadily getting drugs under the table, and the doctor is willing to provide. That is NOT Vince McMahon's fault by any manner whatsoever.

Does anyone find it funny that Main-Eventers seem to never be tested.

Batista? Hes been sidelined twice. I honestly, and sincerely believe guys like Randy Orton, John Cena, UnderTaker, and Triple H all are not on steroids. Thats not to say they haven't done them in the past, but currently. They are NOT on steroids. I can't back this up with obtainable evidence, but the fact that they haven't been sidelined, does.

Vince made the Wellness Policy in order to appease the government and it still isn't working because they're still investigating it.

Can you prove this?

Seems to have fooled just about everyone on this forum though since everyone automatically says, well he has a Wellness Policy now everything is golden.

The Wellness Policy is set and stone which outlaws illigal use of drugs. If these wrestlers voluntarily break the law, and take illigal drugs. Then that is NOT Vince McMahon's fault. I'm sure theres ways to get around this policy, but again. That is NOT Vince McMahon's fault. He set the Wellness Policy up in order to protect his wrestlers, and the fact that they try to find ways around it, is their own fault.

Yep that was all them, sure lets not ignore the fact that neither Benoit or Guererro were getting the pushes they got before they got on the juice, or before they started taking a hell of a lot more of it.

Really? You can prove this how? Benoit and Guererro were pushed to the moon and back for quite a few years. Yes, both fell off the radar on a few occations, but that was because great wrestlers like JBL, Triple H, Randy Orton, Batista, etc were all stepping out into the limelight. These men were not simply pushed because they were on the juice, thats simply absurd.

Naw Test wasn't a lot more ripped when he came back to ECW then he was in his previous stint with the company.

Test didn't have all that much talent. When he came back to ECW it was because they needed more wrestlers, for a new brand. Test was a recognizable character for the WWE, so they "tested" him out.

Why not, you do realize that there was a steroid scandal about 18 years ago and Vince instituted a policy then as well, its kind've one of the reason you saw guys like Bret Hart and Shawn Michaels getting into the spotlight after years of Hulk/Warrior/Macho Man. Eventually Vince decided it wasn't cost feasible anymore so he trashed it, keeping in mind that this policy was not "really" his choice. He got taken to court, Hogan made some damaging testimony, and then Vince instituted a policy. This time Guerrero died, Vince thought, uh oh shitball waiting to happen, and decided that it was time to introduce his altruistic Wellness Policy.

Yes, I do realise this. But like I said, a few times allready, the arguement for men 10 years ago, heck 5-6 years ago. That can be brought up by the WWE, but as of today? With guys like Umaga, Benoit, and Test? No. Thats not the WWE's fault, nor Vince McMahons. Umaga refused rehab. Benoit voluntarily had a shady doctor. Test? Well I don't know much about test.

Yeah when it happens to teenagers usually parents take a lot of the blame for it. Sure it was the kids decision to take the drugs and their parents tried to steer them away but they still get blamed.

Because parents have the right to keep the child at home, and only allow acess to school, no place else. Otherwise they should be kept on lock down. Vince McMahon and his employees are all co-workers. He does not have the right to tie them down at home, to keep them away from drugs. These are grown men, that should know better.

Imagine if, wherever you worked, 1 or 2 people that used to work there died, every year for five years. After the 5th year people would start to connect dots, "what is it about this place that people are looking to drugs?"

Well with the wrestling world its simple. Its a demanding job, requiring your time, body, and more. Its always been like this, even with guys in the 50's, 60's, 70's, 80's, 90's, and even today. This standard was set years ago. But this job also comes with money. These men have the money, and have the reason to do so. Don't you think its the easy way out for these men? Of course it is, so they do it.