Does Vince Get Too Much Blame For "Ruining" The Teritorries?

[Tenta]

Typically, when people bring up the teritorry system, and its eventual decline, one name comes up to mind; Vince McMahon. Of course, in the revisionist history of the demise of the teritorries, Vince McMahon is typically casted as the red fellow with the pitchfork and hooves. In just about any historical context written and discussed, there's typically that one point where Vince swoops in, steals all of the major talent of the promotions with promises of lucrative contracts and more mainstream audiences. Most people fault Vince for making sure wrestlers never had an audience to perfect their craft in front of a smaller audience, and partially the reason why all of his boys are so green.

But is that really a fair assesment of Vince McMahon? Is it really fair to say that Vince McMahon intentionally screwed over the terittorry system for his own profit? Sure, fans of the NWA would like to believe that he ruined the chance of a terittory system, but how just is it to place all of the blame on Vince McMahon? And furthermore, wouldn't his actions beyond the break up of the conventional terittories suggest completely the opposite?

Let me explain. In the early 90s, a great amount of the teritorry system's promotions had all but died out. JCP had been bought up by Ted Turner, thus making the Mid-Atlantic, Georgia Wrestling, and Championship Wrestling from Florida pretty much null and void. Now, let's go over some revisionist history, and clear matters up for the uninitiated.

Revisionist history has it that Vince McMahon bought Georgia Championship Wrestling, at least a portion of it, and the television time on TBS, beginning his spree of destroying the teritorry system. However, what's often lost in the shuffle, in the attempt to cast Vince McMahon as the Devil Incarnate, is that in that portion of time, Georgia Championship Wrestling's ratings would flounder, against the stiffer competition provided by Mid-South Wrestling and Ole Anderson's show Championship Wrestling from Georgia. Not exactly the most creative of names, but it got the job done; Southerners had forced Vince to give up on the time they bought on TBS, and eventually sold their company to Jim Crockett.

First of all, I'd like to focus on this purchase, right now. You see, Vince had the option of selling the Georgia Championship Wrestling to Ted Turner, and instead decided to sell it to Jim Crockett promotions. I want everybody to think about that for a second; Vince decided it was best to keep the billionaire, who honestly was pretty clueless as it pertains to professional wrestling, and opted to sell his company to a more experienced promoter, and give him the tools to succeed. Had Jim Crockett been able to lead his promotion the way that some people like to believe, in being this great promoter, he had all the tools to survive in the Southeast as a teritorry system, and make plenty of money. At this point, the fans had proven their loyalty, and quite frankly, nothing would have turned off fans more than selling out to Ted Turner. At the least, fans knew that Vince McMahon was a man that understood what wrestling about; his family legacy was based on wrestling, and he had grown up with generations around it. Ted Turner, meanwhile, was a crazed billionaire, who was probably going to treat a wrestling promotion as nothing more than his little playtoy. And, shit in my mouth and call me Spanky, that's just what Ted Turner did, once he did get his own wrestling company.

No, you see, the problem begins when Jim Crockett tried to take his regional promotion, and make it to a national promotion. He took Starcade and Bunkhouse Stampede, two of the mega events in the Southeast, and moved them to Chicago and New York, to which none of the true fans of the JCP could think of traveling to watch the biggest shows of their calender year. It'd be like the WWE placing Wrestlemania in Brazil; you may get new fans, but you alienate the fans that feel you've turned on them. That's exactly how fans felt about Jim Crockett Promotions, which again, mind you, had swollen up to this point to take on most of the Mid-Atlantic, and now Florida. This would eventually turn to World Championship Wrestling, again, because Jim Crockett had the expressed desire of being a national company. Again, there was really no pressure placed on Vince; he'd already failed in the Southeast, so by all logic standpoint, why would he have tried to move back into a region he absolutely failed in? It was never so much that Vince fucked over the NWA, as much as Jim Crockett tried to consolidate the NWA's southeastern promotions, and make them a more viable promotion outiside of, you guessed it, the teritorry.

As if that wasn't enough to disenfranchise the feeling of a teritorry, Jim Crockett also bought out the UWF, in which he squandered away this chance at a huge profit, by having relative mid carders in the JCP going over the main eventers of the immensely popular UWF. Then, of course, you had such mistakes as Jim Crockett's flashy expenditures, such as a private jet and limos, the obliteration of the house show market by the now predicatble and excruciating amount of "Dusty Finishes" that were booked, and Jim Crockett had clearly made enough mistakes to fuck up the company well enough. Worse, lady luck bit into the ass of Jim Crockett, when Magnum T.A. had a career ending injury. This would have been the man to rival Hulk Hogan in the WWE, and instead, they had no one to turn to. In a panicked move, instead of staying with the consistent Ric Flair, the NWA turned to Ronnie Garvin, a mid card face at best, to carry the company as champion, which was an abhorrent failure.

So again, we don't see Vince McMahon fucking with the teritorries at all. Rather, we see Jim Crockett's bad decisions, as well as horrible luck, plaguing the JCP, to the point that the most viable option of a teritorry in the south, where teritorries were always respected, had to come crashing, and would need to turn to the billionaire mogul Ted Turner to bail them out.

Now, who else is more responsible for fucking the teritorry system than Vince McMahon, you ask? Well, how about this guy?

Yeah, he, more so than Vince McMahon, can be blamed for ruining the teritorries. Because, when you think about it, it was his decision to buttfuck the NWA in the worst way possible, by having Shane Douglas throw the NWA Belt to the ground. At the time, Jim Crockett, who at the least had experience with the teritorry system, had finally ended his no-compete clause in his contract with Ted Turner, and was set to book the NWA once more. Crockett asked his friend, Tod Gordon, to hold a tournament gor the NWA Heavyweight Championship at his teritorry promotion of Eastern Championship Wrestling. Paul Heyman was the one that got into Gordon's ear, and convinced him to secede from the NWA. He was the one who originated the idea for Shane Douglas to throw down the title. Once that happened, there was no way for the NWA to recuperate, and slowly, it faded into obscurity.

And what was Vince doing during this time, when Paul was screwing over the NWA contingency? He was helping Smoky Mountain Wrestling, and the USWA, of course. Yes, Vince had talent exchanges with these two companies, allowing for them to take his bigger, and better drawing, superstars of the World Wrestling Federation, and placing them in smaller arenas, working against the likes of Jerry Lawler and co. And in return, the WWE didn't ask for much aside from talents like Jim Cornette and Jerry Lawler to come on his television. Yes, all he asked for was that the two companies promote themselves on his buck. Of course, Vince would pull this off years later, with his working deal to let ECW come onto his programming, and advertise their company. The only person Vince wouldn't do business with was anyone affiliated with WCW.

Which brings me to this point... If Vince really did want to break the teritorry system, as some argue, doesn't this seem to prove otherwise? Doesn't this seem to prove that, in fact, Vince tried to help the teritorries succeed? Sure, they were teritorries molded in his image, but nontheless, they were still teritorries. WCW would have never allowed this at the time, yet Vince, for as much as we slander him as the Devil, seemed to put it in his best interest to help the teritorries.

So there you have it. Vince didn't ruin the teritorries. Jim Crockett, inept management, and Paul Heyman, fucked over the teritorries. It wasn't Vince playing the devil, it was the fact that he was just the better promoter, in a time where everyone had no clue what they were doing. All of the signs point to Vince in fact trying to save the teritorry system, much more than they do him trying to ruin it,

So debate it. Teritorry enthusiasts, debate that Vince McMahon is not in fact the devil.

 

[klunderbunker]

Yes he does get too much heat for it. Vince did not kill the territory system. Cable TV did.

As you likely know, the idea back in the day was the traveling champion. He comes to your territory maybe twice a year and wrestles your top guy, escapes by the skin of his teeth with the title, and then isn't seen again for 8 months or so. It made the cahmpion appearing a huge event because you never saw him otherwise.

Enter cable. Every week you can see Ric Flair on TBS and hear how awesome he is. And the problem becomes clear: the mystique is gone. Flair isn't this guy that you hear about all year long and then see once a year. You see him every week and realize he's great but not as amazing as you think he is. Why pay 30 dollars to go see him in your home promotion when you can watch him for free 50 times a year?

The same thing happened with WWF and NWA programming. You could see it every week so why go and see your local guys? On the flip side from the talent perspective, the local guys wanted to go to a big company and get on TV so they could likely make more money. Why go around southern Alabama and work in from of 50 people a week when you can go to Atlanta and be on national TV making FAR more money? It's basic business.

Vince just happened to capitalize on it. If he hadn't done it someone else would ahve. Also it's not like he's the only guy that raided territories. Crockett bought up most of the south. Hell look at the UWF. A ton of their guys came over in the late 80s to what would become WCW, including a guy named Sting. It wasn't just Vince that did it. He just did it more than anyone.

So yes, Vince gets too much blame for ending the territories.

 

[Tenta]

It's more than that, KB. It really is.

To say that it was typical evolution of the media lets way too many people off the hook, and you know it. Yes, Cable made it that much easier to watch wrestlers, but by simply saying that, you also have to include that Jim Crockett, for all he's built up, tried to run his promotion as a national promotion, when it just wasn't there. Yes, cable made it easier to see Ric Flair, but those that were loyal fans were going to pay the money to see Flair, if they wanted to.

The big business theory does indeed make sense. Eventually, a good portion of talent was going to head over to the WWE. But we both know better, KB; the WWE wasn't going to take every wrestler possible from Jim Crockett. Sure, they were going to take a few here and there, but not the entire roster. And at the time, you were dealing with a conglomerate of Mid South, GCW, CWF, and Mid Atlantic, all now working together. And you don't think that could have at least stayed alive for more years, with that contingency?

Look, yes, Cable made it the Wrestling War a bit one sided. But that takes too many people off the hook for the way they ran the company. It's as simple as cable, and that Jim Crockett booked his company to oblivion

 

[klunderbunker]

Pro Wrestling USA. Ever heard of it? Well given your historical prowess you might have but I doubt a lot of people here have.

This was the conglomerate you're talking about. GCW, CWA, JCP, WCCW, AWA and Lawler's boys got together and tried to make a national company. This wasn't in the late 80s once Crockett went national either. This was in 1984. It was done by 1985.

The fans simply didn't care. Without Hogan, no one gave a damn. The big show was Superclash with Flair vs. Magnum for the title (Yes they did have their big showdown at one point). No one bought the show, even though it got a crowd of over 20,000 in Chicago. The thing split apart and the rest is history.

Now this brings up an important question: why did it fail? In short, people didn't care. The territory system just didn't seem to be something that there was any interest in anymore. These guys had simply been left behind by Vince and Hogan. Vince had a great idea and considering he's the only guy still in business today, that proves something I'd think. It was clear that the fans were ready for a change and the success of the WWF proves that.

Also, look at the AWA for an example of why the territory system was doomed. The territory system is known for having a single owner of each company, in the AWA's case Verne Gagne. Gagne was so obsessed with the old ways that he wouldn't make Hogan the top guy. Hogan said the hell with this and a year and a half later he was headlining Wrestlemania with Muhammad Ali and Mr. T. Look even at Vince Sr. He wouldn't let Hogan be in Rocky 3 so Hogan left. Vince Jr. embraced the national audience and the new style and it worked.

Tell me: how long do you really think the old system was going to hold on? Instead the country got to see all new stars that they had never gotten to see before. It led to Turner putting money and time into WCW, giving us the Monday Night Wars. With the territory system, none of those things ever happen. Hell Wrestlemania doesn't happen. Vince didn't so much kill the territories as much as he saw the future and was the only person to do something about it.

 

[Tenta]

Pro Wrestling USA. Ever heard of it? Well given your historical prowess you might have but I doubt a lot of people here have.

I'm not sure that's a compliment, or if I should take that for the rhetorical question you mean it to be.

This was the conglomerate you're talking about. GCW, CWA, JCP, WCCW, AWA and Lawler's boys got together and tried to make a national company. This wasn't in the late 80s once Crockett went national either. This was in 1984. It was done by 1985.

The fans simply didn't care. Without Hogan, no one gave a damn. The big show was Superclash with Flair vs. Magnum for the title (Yes they did have their big showdown at one point). No one bought the show, even though it got a crowd of over 20,000 in Chicago. The thing split apart and the rest is history.

Yeah, I'm not going to lie.... I kinda wanted to leave Pro Wrestling USA out of my OP. Good job of spotting it.

I think it's valid. No Hogan, no buyrate. But as you insisted, the damn thing did draw 20,000, so there at least was an interest in the concept. The problem, however, was production value. Out of this huge conglomerate we speak of, no one had the marketing and production mind of Vince McMahon. No one knew how to market the company, and even worse, advertise the company. And as we all know, once you can't advertise, your name is mud in professional wrestling.

That, plus the buy rate may have had to do with the fact that, I believe, Vince threatened the close channeled cable of pulling Wrestlemania if they didn't air that as the exclusive. Maybe this happened later, but again, limited market, limited buy rate.

Still, the crowd does at least insinuate there was interest at the concept. But, once again, inept management fucks shit up.

The territory system just didn't seem to be something that there was any interest in anymore. These guys had simply been left behind by Vince and Hogan. Vince had a great idea and considering he's the only guy still in business today, that proves something I'd think. It was clear that the fans were ready for a change and the success of the WWF proves that.

I'm going to agree in partiality here. Yes, plenty of fans saw the WWE ship pulling up to shore, and tried anything to get on the boat.

There was a contingency of fans, however, that were infuriated by Vince, and his "Yankee business". Hell, Black Saturday's the perfect point of that. Vince flopped, mostly because no one was buying his product in the Southeast. So yes, some fans were getting on board with the E, but there was still a contingency that still was going to follow JCP, if Jim Crockett hadn't tried fuck all to make his brand national, when it didn't belong.

Also, look at the AWA for an example of why the territory system was doomed. The territory system is known for having a single owner of each company, in the AWA's case Verne Gagne. Gagne was so obsessed with the old ways that he wouldn't make Hogan the top guy. Hogan said the hell with this and a year and a half later he was headlining Wrestlemania with Muhammad Ali and Mr. T. Look even at Vince Sr. He wouldn't let Hogan be in Rocky 3 so Hogan left. Vince Jr. embraced the national audience and the new style and it worked.

Well, yeah, that's my point; inept management, combined with Vince's vision, led to the death of the teritorries. Again, you know how well Verne played favorites. This guy simply refused to let over talents like the Body, Hogan and co. get over, and chose names like Nick Bockwinkel, his son Greg, and fucking King Kong Brody to hog the spotlight.

Again, inept management.... WWE capitalizes.

Tell me: how long do you really think the old system was going to hold on? Instead the country got to see all new stars that they had never gotten to see before. It led to Turner putting money and time into WCW, giving us the Monday Night Wars. With the territory system, none of those things ever happen. Hell Wrestlemania doesn't happen. Vince didn't so much kill the territories as much as he saw the future and was the only person to do something about it.

Fair point. But I feel as though there's a way to market a teritorry to work, even with the national promotion. That's pretty much what TNA does; they're really nothing more than a glorified teritorry. The only difference is, WWE has no problem running shows in its backyard. In the Southeast, there is a logical way to run a teritorry, because time had proven the Southeast didn't take to Vince's style of wrestling, and that they craved something different.

That could have been Jim Crockett. If, you know, he didn't fuck shit up. Hell, folks on the East Coast could crave something different, and turn to the NWA, if they don't like the WWE style.

But, guess who fucked that one up? You're right, Paul Heyman

 

[klunderbunker]

I'm not sure that's a compliment, or if I should take that for the rhetorical question you mean it to be.

Wasn't rhetorical and it was a compliment.

Yeah, I'm not going to lie.... I kinda wanted to leave Pro Wrestling USA out of my OP. Good job of spotting it.

It was a bad idea in 80s wrestling. You expected me to let that slide?

But as you insisted, the damn thing did draw 20,000, so there at least was an interest in the concept. The problem, however, was production value.

Not sure on that. It was Chicago, a wrestling town. It's not hard to draw a huge crowd there. The production value I'm not sure I agree on. I've seen the show and it's not bad at all from a visual perspective.

That, plus the buy rate may have had to do with the fact that, I believe, Vince threatened the close channeled cable of pulling Wrestlemania if they didn't air that as the exclusive. Maybe this happened later, but again, limited market, limited buy rate.

That was Starrcade 87 over 2 years later. He did the exact opposite in January of 88 by putting on the Rumble for free while Crockett had a PPV called Bunkhouse Stampede.

At least twice in there you say inept management. That sums up things very well for me: the territories kept shooting themselves in the foot. Crockett, Gagne, Von Erich and various others couldn't survive no matter what they did. The time just passed them by and like I said, with a sudden influx of other wrestling to watch from around the country via the advent of cable, no one was really interested in the local guys anymore. There's one constant in the territory owners: they all managed to fuck things up by not changing. The system died and they held on. Vince was just there to pick up the pieces, although he picked them up before everything else came crashing down.

 

[XgringolocoX]

IMO Vince is a BIG reason for it's demise, but not the ONLY reason. I see valid arguements for the mismanagement of the individual territories which led them down that path, and Cable TV did have a part to play.
I'm leaning more toward Vince because he was the only who was aggressively going after territories to put them out. Vince wanted to have thier TV slots. You made a deal with Vince, or Vince dealt with you.
Didn't read all the posts cause they so damn long at 130 am...appologies if I just repeated someone's post.
Cheers

 

[dd23beatlesfan1]

This is such an excellent post Tenta.

I pretty much agree wholeheartedly, although I do think Vince must share in some of the blame. Whether he meant to or not, he did play a role in the decline of the territory system technically.

The territory system was inevitably going to go down. As people have pointed out, the cable TV revolution certainly played a role in bringing the territories down, to a degree. And I agree with you that the biggest thing that caused the territories to fail was the the promotors were just clueless in how to deal with and respond to the genius and adaptability to a changing market that Vince McMahon had.

However, Vince did steal talents from other territories, that can't be denied. I'm not saying it's right or wrong. Vince was a brilliant businessman and knew what to do with most of these guys and give them bigger opportunities for money and fame. Who could pass that up? But still he did, and he did take away top talents from the majority of the territories. Now of course, the promotors should've had backup plans when they lost their top talents and had ideas on newer guys to replace them. Which the promotors failed to do.

Vince in addition to stealing talents, running shows in the backyards of the territories (which worked in most cases, but as you pointed out in the Southeast, failed), also pulled a few ******** moves with the NWA. Your claim of him wanting to save the NWA had a good backup argument in him selling Georgia Championship Wrestling back to Jim Crockett Promotions. That' s a good argument that holds credence to your idea that he wanted to help the NWA deep down. But at the same time, there's a fact that proves that Vince was out to crush them as competition too. When Vince basically killed the NWA's chances and opportunities at ppv exposure which could've helped the company maybe. There was no reason whatsoever other than to "kill the competition" to threaten the ppv companies and basically bullying them into not showing NWA ppv's. While I agree it was a bad idea for the NWA to run Starrcade and Bunkhouse Stampede in the Northeast, all of the fans in the southeast who couldn't attend the show live, could've watched the event on ppv had they gotten opportunities to showcase their shows on ppv, which Vince McMahon pretty much killed. So in actuality, it could've worked. All of the fans in the South could've watched the show on ppv, while the NWA could've perhaps gained some new fans in the north with their live shows/events. It was somewhat of a risk, but with the show that either you or Klunderbunker pointed out to drawing 20,000 fans proves that it could've worked. But Vince had to be a dick and not allow the NWA to basically have a chance at showing off their shows on ppv. What is the purpose of doing that?

Even in the heated days of the Monday Night Wars, the WWF never showed ppvs on the same days as WCW and vice-versa. WWE doesn't currently do that with TNA.


I think what ultimately happened was that Vince was very competitive and wanted to reign on top of the wrestling world, and early on if that meant territories went down, then so be it. I don't think he planned on everything failing in his wake, but he certainly wanted to dominate all the territories. It's no secret that Vince McMahon is the very definition of competitive. Once he saw all of the territories go down, I think deep down he felt guilty about it. Hence why he tried to help so many indy promotions like Smoky Mountain, USWA, and ECW in the '90s. Now of course it also benefitted him as the companies would provide him with future talent and stars. But yes I agree that Vince is not the Devil incarnate as others paint him out to be. Deep down, Vince McMahon is one of the biggest wrestling fans in the world. He knows that while from a business perspective the landscape of the wrestling world due to his success is a triumph and a huge accomplishment. But what it means to the industry he knows he hurt it too. He knows he would be better off with competition. Which is why I don't think he's worked too hard to hurt TNA. Some might say that he's really competitive with him, which is somewhat true, but Vince has done nothing to hurt TNA like he did the NWA (with the ******** ppv moves) nor WCW.

But overall I agree with you. Vince wasn't the sole reason the territory system declined. Vince simply provided a superior product that no one was able to really match until Eric Bischoff came along and revamped WCW. If guys like Verne Gagne especially had a clue on how to change with the times, they might've made it. Jim Crockett also ran his company into the ground as well, but I am a firm believer that had Vince not blocked the ppv access for those big NWA shows in 87/88, that might've made enough of a difference in keeping Jim Crockett promotions alive. Now that is of course speculation, we'll never know and I could be wrong. But who really knows?

 

[dd23beatlesfan1]

Okie dokie.

I suppose I should elaborate further on my post and explain further what I was trying to get at. Vince's success technically played a role in bringing down many of the territory promotions though it was not his fault entirely.

The territory system was going to fail inevitably simply because it's time had passed it by. The territory system was based like many business and industries before the 1980's were handled. Very local-orientated like your "mom and dad shop" type of thing. Wrestling promotions were generally local and pretty small and more personable so to speak. That's just how American business and society was back in that time. You didn't have your huge corporations that ran monopolies over an industry yet.

With the technological revolution that began in the 1980's, and with business and industries growing huge and profits soaring through the roof, every business got bigger. The NBA and the NFL became like big businesses/corporations whether than pure sports. The music industry grew more into a business and corporations rather than being about the pure artistry of music. Companies like Wal-Mart killed all of your local department and grocery stores, your "mom and pop" run stores. The world just grew to be bigger and more corporate. Many industries fell into an almost monopoly.

Wrestling was no different. As the rest of the world grew, wrestling would too, and Vince McMahon happened to be the key figure to make it happen. Over the 1980's, your mom and pop-styled wrestling companies (aka: the territories) fell to the wayside because wrestling was just meant to get bigger. From production value to the glitz and glamour to the storylines, wrestling evolved into sports-entertainment which made the business grow into a true industry. So from a technical sense, more in theory he was the key figure to make the wrestling industry in America grow, spurred the downfall of the territories. It was wasn't his fault. Destiny and the evolution of business and American society was what killed the territories. Their time had passed.

So Vince wasn't the Devil who set out to kill everything, he was just a businessman that knew wrestling was ready to change, had the tools to make it happen (cable TV, great talent, creative booking, brilliant advertising skills, etc.), and the rest of the promotors (mostly wrestlers) just didn't know how to adapt to a changing world.

By the late 1980's the territory system was pretty much dead already as either Vince or Jim Crockett had bought out most of the territories. The only real threat to Vince was Jim Crockett Promotions. Jim had bought up most of the vital territories throughout the mid '80s and had a stacked roster with an excellent product and a niche audience. I think what Vince McMahon did ultimately cause was the downfall of Jim Crockett Promotions. Now again he wasn't the sole cause, as Jim made many mistakes and also had bad luck. These things were excellently pointed out by Tenta. But the shows were still big draws and local business was excellent.

Jim had the vision to expand nationally as well, and in a difference of opinion from Tenta I think it could've worked, had he had more time, and had Vince McMahon not killed the NWA's chances of expanding in one swoop by killing their ppv exposure. Tenta pointed out that it was a failure to take the shows up north, because it alienated the southern audiences, and the north was accustomed to WWF-styled wrestling and not NWA styled wrestling. This is where I disagree for the most part. I agree that the NWA was going to have more fans in the South and they would have quite the challenge to win over fans in the North. WWE also had the same problem as southern fans mostly viewed the WWF as a joke (hence their failure when they took over the Georgia Championship wrestling show on TV), but ultimately they succeeded and continue to run successful shows. I believe that the NWA would've done the same thing and would've eventually won over the Northern crowds had they gotten more of an opportunity.

Jim Crockett's ambitions while risky, were plausible and could've worked. I really believe that had they been able to get as much ppv exposure as the WWF had, they could've succeeded. Maybe not quite as much as the WWF, but certainly enough to stay in business and not have to sell to Ted Turner like they did. For those that aren't really aware of what I'm talking about, the NWA was set to hold their 1987 Starrcade event. On the same night to compete, Vince McMahon held the first WWF Survivor Series ppv event. Cable companies couldn't of course hold both shows on ppv as ppv access simply didn't have as many channels like to today, so the majority of cable companies were only able to choose one. Now of course the WWF was far more established as a ppv success than the NWA as the WWF largely created the ppv market. So by name value alone most companies would've went with the WWF. But in a ******** move, Vince threatened pretty much all of the companies by basically saying that if any showcased Starrcade over Survivor Series then they would not get to showcase Wrestlemania IV or any other ppv event in between that time. Naturally, all of the companies showed Survivor Series, and only three cable companies across the country showed Starrcade. This virtually killed the ppv buys for Starrcade 87, basically making the show a failure despite a solid crowd draw (8,000, pretty low compared to the WWF, but decent for the NWA). The NWA show drew a 3.3 buyrate compared to the Survivor Series' 7.0 buyrate. The was the NWA's first every show on ppv, and with a successful buyrate, they could've established themselves as a serious contender in the ppv market, which could've really helped the company succeed into becoming a national company like Jim Crockett wanted to do.

After that show, the cable companies warned Vince not schedule a ppv event on the same night as the NWA, but in once again another ******** move, Vince aired the first ever Royal Rumble for free on USA on the same night as the NWA's next ppv, Bunkhouse Stampede, once again hurting a potentially good ppv buyrate for the NWA (though the show turned out to be a critical failure).

Now business wise, these were brilliant moves. But these also prove one thing, Vince was intent on hurting the NWA and Jim Crockett promotions. I mean why else would he pull ******** moves like these? For shits and giggles? Of course not. He wanted to make the sure the NWA didn't rise up and pose a serious threat. Especially on the ppv market, a market that Vince virtually owned at the time.

What I think Vince ultimately should get some credit for is hurting and brining an end to Jim Crockett Promotions. Of course not all the credit. Jim did a lot of things to fuck the business up as Tenta pointed out in his post. But Vince was no saint on this issue and he certainly played a part in hurting Jim Crockett Promotions by basically killing their opportunities at making a dent in the ppv market. This was an essential piece in the puzzle of Jim Crockett Promotions expanding as ppv expsoure would increased the companies exposure ten-fold. But Vince had to put a stop to that from happening.

And of course as we all know by the end of 1988, Jim Crocket had to sell to Ted Turner. Ted renamed the company WCW and it would be another 6-7 years before WCW finally rose up enough to provide serious competition to the WWF.

But had Vince stayed back and allowed Jim to do his thing, like Tenta seems to kind of point to what Vince wanted, then the NWA could've succeeded and we could've had a real wrestling war some 6-7 years earlier than we did. A stretch perhaps, but what ultimately became WCW may not have ever needed to become WCW nor needed Ted Turner in the first place.

But then again, I could be wrong and had Jim not sold to Ted, we could've had a wrestling monopoly in 1990 when the AWA folded, aka: 11 years sooner than we did. Ahhhhh, the fun of speculation!


But great post Tenta.

 

[Davi323]

I don't see it as Vince getting too much "fault", because fault implies that the territory system was superior to what it became. It levies blame. Instead, I think Vince deserves a fair amount of CREDIT for transforming pro wrestling from a clusterfuck of regional territories to a global phenomenon. Can we really say the territories were better? I don't think so. Instead of having a handful of potentially world class stars, and a roster full of mediocre jobber level talent, as was the case with a lot of territories, we got a single promotion that tried to consolidate the best of them all, to form the most talented roster we had ever seen to that point. Yeah, Vince raided the territories for talent...but he took the cream of the crop, not the dregs. Think of it like NFL teams being made of the best of college football.

Although I do agree with KB that cable television had a large part in that too. I was born in Michigan, and have lived in Michigan most of my life. Yet, as a kid, I witnessed cable TV's hand in changing pro wrestling. I knew the names of all those stars wrestling in the Sportatorium in Dallas-Fort Worth, because WCCW was on ESPN. I learned about Ric Flair and the Horseman, Nikita Koloff, Magnum TA, and those guys on WTBS, another cable station. The WWF was on USA (gee, the more things change, the more they stay the same, right?) But, how did that contribute? Well, the more people that got exposed to those guys, the more valuable they became, because of name recognition. The more valuable they became, the more Vince wanted them. Vince wasn't going to steal away a completely unknown guy for a lot of cash, he is going to steal the guy that people already know. The Hulk Hogans, Randy Savages, Steamboats, Sgt. Slaughters of the world. Guys that his audience may have already been familiar with. Cable gave wrestlers much better exposure than being televised on the local UHF station ever would, and that exposure made them more desirable to Vince.

Neither is solely responsible, but both are important components in the issue. Vince McMahon had a vision, a vision that was radically different from his father's. He has often said that if Vince Sr had had any idea what he was planning on doing with the WWF, he never would have sold it to him...because VJM was stuck in the territorial rut, while VKM wanted more.

 

[Negrodamus]

Being from Canada all these points and facts are interesting as other than a little AWA only Maple Leaf wrestling/WWF was shown on tv. then Vince got Hogan and made him Mr superheroe, the only way to find out about the NWA Ric Flair or anything else was in magazines so by the time these south guys got on Tv up here WWF was already running strong and every other promotion looked bush league.

IMO Vince Jr is a wrestling God as he had the vision to take them out of small arenas and go global. The Territories were dying and the newer baby boom fanbase wanted different and he provided that and to this day is still evolving the business ( no matter how many complain we still watch and the ones who dont like it are like the management of the old territory guys who dont want to evolve ) If Vince didnt crush the territories NWA would have done exactly what Vince did and we would still have no territories.

As for him blocking PPV's for the NWA thats just business as he was still crawling and competition from the NWA then may have crushed him remember thats what WCW tried to do to Vince with the mon night wars Ted Turner could have easily put it on another night but no he wanted to crush Vince thats just business.

In closing I just want to say THANK YOU VINCE without your vision none of what we have today in the wrestling world would be here, no TNA no WWE nothing

 

[WhatchaGonna Do]

Hmmm, I think the answer lie somewhere in the middle here. As much as I can't stand Vince's business prowess, the territories were going to subside, eventually. I blame the evolution fo the business. MANY years ago, there were NO territories, only the NWA. Then territories were formed. Then McMahon had a vision that no one else had to take his northeast territory(WWF) and go worldwide.

The incredible popularity of Hulk Hogan after the Rocky 3 movie gave wrestling further exposure and, yes, Verne Gagne's closemindedness is his ruin by not making Hogan the centerpiece of his AWA. Shame on him.
Vince took most of the biggest stars of the territories. This simply expedited the fall of the territories. As this was going on, the owners of the territories could have banned together and said, "Listen, McMahon is going to put us out of business. We need to band together here." They didn't. Shame on them.

Now, today, we have the advent of companies that are or trying to go worldwide like TNA and ROH. Change is part of this crazy business/sport.

 

[theHeadliner]

Vince did some blatent tactics such as running syndicated TV programming in other territories and touring live house shows in other territories as well as luring the top talents from other companies with bigger money. Hell, the song "Stand Back" was basically about him taking over all the territories as he headed for the top.

 

[Tenta]

Vince did some blatant tactics such as running syndicated TV programming in other territories and touring live house shows in other territories as well as luring the top talents from other companies with bigger money. Hell, the song "Stand Back" was basically about him taking over all the territories as he headed for the top.

Fixed. And duely noted. But honestly, that's nothing more than big business, Headliner, it really is. Everybody takes away talent from other people's promotions, and besides that, the only thing I find Vince at fault for is running shows in "peoples backyard". Vince had no obligation to anything other than himself, and his company. He didn't have an obligation to make sure his competition had a house, and even when he did cause for territories to fold, he attempted to rebuild them by helping out Smoky Mountain and the likes.

I think dd23beatlesfan1 is really onto something when he pointed to Vince's feeling of guilt. Vince has a competitive soul, but tell me, why else would he have helped other promotions, when none of it led to any profit for himself. Read; Vince went out of his way to help struggling companies, in exchange for talent. He, in turn, tried to recreate the territories. Sure, again, he did it in his image, but if Vince did intend to kill the territories, why else would he have then attempted to resurrect them later in the 90s?

I stand firm on this one. If anyone can explain why Vince did this, with selfish reasoning behind his moves, I'll acknowledge it. Otherwise, Vince just doesn't seem like the guy that wanted the territories dead, based on his actions both before and after the death of most companies.

 

[Dudebuster420]

I am going to go ahead and say that Vince gets too much blame for it, but I also want to make it very clear that in no way are his hands clean of this blood. Vince most definitely did want the territories to die out, and he did do all he could to crush that competition. The thing is, it's not like he willed this into being, it took every resource and every nickel and dime he had, even money he technically didn't have to catch up to, and overtake the south.

Vince grew up in the business and learned everything he could about every aspect of it from a young age. He used to hang around his dads shows trying help out any way he could always asking questions about every part of the show from lighting and sound equipment to merchandise stands and booking. He knew everything there was to know about the business is every facet before he even went to college. You also can't forget that Vince McMahon Jr. has a Masters Degree in Business as does his wife Linda who he met in college. My point herein is; Vince wasn't some meat-head wrestler or backwoods promoter trying to run a business or book matches, he was very well educated in business and THE BUSINESS which I think is why he overcame the others.

A main point I'd like to make as well is that the NWA and the McMahon's had history. Capital Wrestling Corporation was apart of the NWA for a while and they split on bad terms over talent disputes. To compare that to something happening today: That's like FCW deciding to cut ties with WWE to put it in perspective. Now CWC was a big promotion, it was the biggest promotion in the northeast, but standing alone without the established powerhouse was still no small task, that is why the world got Bruno Sammartino as well.

I think all of that stuff that happened then is the very fire that fueled it all, from Vince Sr leaving and doing his own thing to Vince Jr ultimately putting them all out of business. I think in some ways as much as it was business it was also personal. I think Jr. finished Sr.'s work, even though it's been said that his dad didn't like his idea of going national via cable, essentially competing with the territories without ever even stepping foot outside of Madison Square Garden. That was a big deal at the time because since it was territorial you didn't do shows in other peoples territories. Although the WWF wasn't doing that literally, it was doing it blatantly. Don't ever doubt however that either of them weren't hellbent on beating their competition and former allies. It just took Vince Jr. stepping out of the past and into the future to finish the job, which he did.

Vince did steal all the talent, Vince did muscle the PPV carriers, Vince did put his product in everyone elses market, and you know what else? He kicked all their asses by doing it. If the good ol' boys from the territories wanted to compete maybe they should have taken the necessary steps and made the necessary changes to make progress and put out a better product. Instead Ghomer, Homer, and Ned are standing in the field dumbfounded as to why no one in the sticks wants to come to their wrasslin show, and still trying to figure out how "Slappy the fall down drunk" mismanaged the books. Gee? I don't know? Maybe you guys should have paid your wrestlers better, put more money into the show instead of your pockets to squander, and got with the times instead of trying to hold on to the good old days.

You can't blame Vince for all your woes, the people in the territories screwed everything up themselves. Vince was just there to capitalize on their failure. So what there is no Mid-Atlantic Wrestling? So what there is no "Deep South Tin Shed Wrestling"? Do you care? Do I care? Does it matter really? No. The pubic, the people, the ones paying for it all; CHOSE the WWF over everyone, that's the way it is, that's the way it was obviously meant to be, and so far the business has been pretty good without a ton of micro companies pretending to be WWF caliber.

I just don't care that a bunch of guys who were local stars, couldn't all be Hogans' and Flairs', it doesn't matter to me. It's a lot tougher to be a wrestler now, or to become one at least that is going to have any success. I like that fact, it insures to me that he guys I see at the top, should be at the top. I don't want to see the Elks Lodge members in their underwear fighting over who gets to but Peggy Sue a drink, Not interested. I'll take Hulk Hogan body-slamming Andre The Giant, Ultimate Warrior shaking the ropes, Macho Man hitting the flying elbow, and Hulkamania in general running wild on the grandest stage of them all Wrestlemania.

 

[Jack-Hammer]

Blaming Vince McMahon for any negativity that takes place in pro wrestling is pretty much par for the course. Vince McMahon has been labeled the cause of everything from the death of the NWA Territory System to the cause of the common cold. Vince did play a part on downfall of the NWA's prominence, that's true, but it's absolute nonsense to suggest that he's the only true cause.

In Tenta's OP in the thread, he excellently pointed out exactly how it really was instead of how it's been viewed by history, particularly when it comes to the IWC. Death was at the collective door of the Territory System well before Vince McMahon bought the WWF from his old man in 1982 and really began launching his grand plans in the mid 80s for the WWF to take over the world of wrestling. In many ways, Vince McMahon was only doing what others had already begun doing before him, he was just able to do it better and on a bigger scale. The rise of cable tv had just as much to do with the downfall of the NWA as any single promoter in wrestling history. What made the Territory System work is that tv viewers could only watch wrestling on television if it was provided in a certain geographic location in which a certain promoter operated. For example, if you lived in Tampa, Florida circa 1975, then you could watch Championship Wrestling from Florida but you wouldn't be able to watch programming put out by the American Wrestling Association out of Minneapolis, Minnesota. If you wanted to watch certain wrestlers or hoped to see certain wrestlers, you had to wait until they came into your area or you had to get in your car or whatever and go out to where they were wrestling to see them. Syndication and cable television were going to change all of that whether Vince McMahon was in the picture or not.

World Class Championship Wrestling really made big strides in bringing their product to audiences outside of Texas via Syndication and were doing it before Vince even had control of the WWF. In the Rise & Fall of World Class Championship Wrestling DVD, it was said that World Class was syndicated in I think two-thirds of the United States and was even seen in places like Israel.

If anything, Jim Crockett, Jr. was as much responsible as killing the Territory System as Vince McMahon was. Crockett was really the one that originally made ppv supershows viable after all. On the Rise & Fall of WCW DVD, Crockett himself says he knew the potential of ppv and cable before just about anybody else did. The first Starrcade was something that changed wrestling forever and the viability of wrestling on ppv to hundreds of thousands or millions across the country was another huge blow to the Territory System. Just as Vince McMahon did, Crockett tried to take his company national. Also, like Vince McMahon, he bought up a lot of territories and/or ran others out of business that didn't wanna sell to him. By 1985, Crockett had what was left of the NWA by the balls. His company was thriving whereas many wrestling companies, some that'd been in business for decades, closed shop. He had a strangle hold on the NWA World Heavyweight Championship, his territory was the only one that still had a version of the NWA tag titles, the only U.S. champ, etc. and Crockett made moves to keep it that way. By the mid-80s, Jim Crockett Promotions was the NWA to most wrestling fans and viewers. Everyone and everything else was either pushed by the wayside or was just getting out of the way in and of itself. The NWA territories in Los Angeles and San Francisco closed in the very early 80s, Crockett would eventually gain control of Championship Wrestling from Florida, Georgia Championship Wrestling, Bob Geigel's Central States Wrestling, Bill Watts' Universal Wrestling Federation, etc. One reason why Fritz Von Erich pulled World Class out of the NWA in early 1986 was because of the monopoly that Jim Crockett had. Crockett expanded into markets like Chicago and the Midwest all in an attempt to not only compete with Vince McMahon but to be #1 as well.

If anyone put the final nails into the coffin of the NWA, it was pretty much Ted Turner himself. When he gained control of Crockett Promotions in late 1988 and renamed it WCW, just about the only thing left of the NWA were all the various championships that Crockett Promotions had. Turner maintained a relationship with the NWA as the history of the NWA was still a valuable commodity. It gave his company the deepest of deep connections to pro wrestling history in the United States, but he didn't really need it. When the NWA and WCW parted ways completely in 1993, the NWA was pretty much in a vegetative state. Turner had already dropped the NWA initials to the U.S., television and tag titles and called them WCW titles. The only thing he didn't have control of was the rights to the NWA World Heavyweight Championship, so he simply created his own and the NWA was pretty much dead after that.

Vince McMahon did play a part, that can't be denied, but it wasn't just him by any stretch. Vince, however, is the easiest and most convenient target because he was the only guy to really survive. He was the last man standing, he was the better businessman, he was viewed as this big corporate raider and still is. Vince McMahon is a convenient scapegoat for the demise of the Territory System.

 

[X]

Absolutely disagree Tenta, he gets just the right justified amount of blame for killing the territories, because that is exactly what he did. KB, you saying "Cable TV" killed the territories is pretty funny, because it's just another word for Vince and the WWE, who had the only national cable TV wrestling show for years and bought out several territories local timespots to air more WWE programming. Vince and "Cable TV" are the same thing, shit that's how Vince got his first time slot on the USA network, by screwing over Southwest Championship Wrestling who had been running a national wrestling show for nearly a year before Vince swarmed in and showered the USA execs with money, killing Southwest Championship Wrestling in the spot.

Paul Heyman killed the territories Tenta? Really? You seem to be making the mistake of thinking the NWA Title = the territories, Shane throwing down the NWA title meant jack shit because that title was already dead and all Shane did was just say out loud what everyone already knew. If you REALLY think Paul Heyman helped kill the territories more than Vince or at all, I'm sorry dude, but you're simply flat out wrong. The territories were dying a painful death LONG before Heyman arrived in ECW and was hired to book the company by Tod Gordon, in fact by the time Heyman became booker in late 1993, just about every single major independent organization in the United States was already dead, from World Class to the AWA to Memphis, CWA, Florida, you name the indy territory, it was basically dead by the time Wrestlemania 6 came around, which was long before Heyman became the booker for ECW.

Vince McMahon absolutely gets just the amount of blame he deserves. Wrestling was going to go national sooner or later, but that doesn't make up for the fact that he was the actual one to buy out time slot after time slot, scoop up all the top draws, steal their venues, blacklist their promoters, and all of the other dirty tricks he pulled during his quest to bring the WWF national. You're usually spot on man, but you're absolutely wrong here, McMahon gets just the amount of blame he deserves.

 

[DexVendetta88]

Excellent post Tenta! This was a real eye-opener, especially for me since I was a big fan of the original ECW. To be honest here I can't help but agree. JCP, Inept management, and Heyman were indeed to blame for the demise of the territory system. I think the reason why Vinnie Mac gets so much heat on the demise of the territory system is because of his overwhelmingly national level success which prompted people to blame him for the demise of the territories without question. However, with the whole NWA Championship situation back in 94 where ECW left the NWA Tod Gordon was actually in on the whole idea of Douglas dropping the belt in favor of the ECW championship. The reason being was because of personal problems between Gordon and Crockett against Dennis Coralluzzo the NWA president at the time who felt that both Gordon and Crockett were gonna monopolize the title for themselves which is why Coralluzzo oversaw the tournament. In other words, Dennis Coralluzzo is another man to blame for the demise of the territory system because he had too much control over a pivotal tournament which predicted the future of the territory system to the point where they had the winner (Shane Douglas) throw the belt down in defiance thus sending the territory system into obscurity.

 

[Davekdc0064]

I stand firm on this one. If anyone can explain why Vince did this, with selfish reasoning behind his moves, I'll acknowledge it. Otherwise, Vince just doesn't seem like the guy that wanted the territories dead, based on his actions both before and after the death of most companies.

This might just be a half empty point of view, but perhaps he tried to help them just for the talent alone, and also to perhaps cut some of the time, money, and effort it takes to really develop a wrestler. Perhaps he wanted a few "territory like" farms out there to churn out and "un-green" talent for him at the lowest possible cost. Again maybe just a half empty take, but if he only does it to make it easier to develop talent for himself with no care for the territory itself outside of that, would that not be a selfish motive?

 

[Tastycles]

A thousand times yes. While it is true that Vince McMahon bought up the terrotories, that doesn't mean he killed them, it means he changed them. People have some misguided interpretation that the territories were set in stone, had existed since the dawn of time, and were in consistant harmon with each other until McMahon came in and spoiled the party, but that's an oversimplification at best and completely wrong at worst. McMahon did exactly what the territories had been doing to each other for years, but he did it better.

What you have to consider is that guys like Fred Kohler and McMahon's own father, alongside Toots Mondt had created very large territories by exploiting television markets and by undercutting their territorial neighbours, and all Vince Jr did is continue his father's work more aggressively.

Now clearly, you can interpret what I've just said and still hold the belief that Vince killed the territories, just that he wasn't unjustified in doing so, but again, I don't think that it's as simple as that. What one has to realise is that the vast majority of the territories had been in the same hands since the formative days of the NWA in the 1950s, and a lot of the owners were getting old, and running out of ideas.

By the time Vince started expanding the empire, the vast majority of the promoters were probably looking to retire anyway. But again, we have to look at what Vince was doing. He bought the a great deal of promotions, he could have just bullied them into submission. Similarly, those remained loyal to the NWA generally sold up to Jim Crockett, which was probably more suicidal for them than anything else.

The territory system was wearing thin by the time Vince came along anyway, and the NWA had lost a lot of its most notable members and more importantly, the promoters that held it together. Sam Munchnick stepping down as president in 1975 was a blow that meant the unity of the Alliance was always going to suffer.

The fundamental answer to the question depends on your definition of the territories, I suppose. If you believe that the long term promotions that existed in various areas, often helped to maintain a monopoly by other promoters are what the territories were, then I suppose it's hard to argue Vince didn't kill them. If you believe, that the territories were a method for the best wrestling talent to be shown across the country by someone with a stranglehold over who wrestled where and when, then I'd say Vince maintained the Status Quo very well. If anything, Vince doing what he did allowed Jim Crockett to expand and ultimately created the nationwide competition that wrestling hadn't seen since the 1940s.