Does Paul Heyman have a point?

[TheICChampion]

When WWE ran the ECW portion of the Monday Night Wars, Paul Heyman mentioned that it was because of ECW that WWE and WCW were so popular. Both companies had taken ideas and superstars from ECW, matches, wrestling styles, etc. In short, Paul Heyman basically said that without ECW, there would likely be no Monday Night War and, subsequently, no Attitude Era.


Do you think he's right? Would WWE be as popular today or even still in business if they hadn't borrowed/stolen ECW's innovations/superstars? What would have happened had ECW stayed as a minor affiliate of the NWA? Let me know what you guys think.

(PS: Move this if it's somehow in the wrong section. I couldn't decide if this should have been here or GWD.)

 

[HurriKane]

Yea he was.

ECW was the company that really let Stone Cold be himself, to show the world what he can do, WWE took him and eventually Stone Cold became what he was.

ECW was the one that really started the attitude era with its hardcore style, no matter what anyone says, ECW made wrestling what it was throughout the 90s.

Without ECW there would have been no Stone Cold, and possibility no Cruiserweights in America since they brought in Rey Mysterio, Super Crazy, Tajiri first, and they were the company that showed what guys like Eddie, Benoit, and Dean could do.

Every other company basically took what they did, but ECW started it.

 

[Hollywood Naitch]

I think he does have a point, to an extent.

There is no doubt that both WWE and WCW took alot of ideas from ECW, its obvious. ECW was cutting edge and WWE certainly adapted some of Paul's ideas in their own "Attitude" rebrand- the more violent, adult elements for sure and we saw alot of ECW wrestlers in both companies after their initial success in Philly.

Steve Austin's "bad ass" persona was first seen in ECW after Heyman gave him the chance to talk, Mick Foley established himself in ECW and we ended up seeing him as Cactus Jack in WWE a few years later, Chris Jericho, Eddie Guerrero, Dean Malenko, Tazz, The Dudleys, RVD, Raven, Chris Benoit and many others got their breaks in ECW and both WWE and WCW reaped the benefits of these guys years later.

And that's not even mentioning the Crusierweights- first seen in ECW and stolen by Eric Bischoff. ECW introduced Lucha to the US audience- giving Rey Mysterio, Juventud Guererra, Pcicosis and others the chance to wrestle in North America and they were a phenomenon. It's definitely something to thank Paul Heyman for.

I think WWE and WCW would have modernised and got out of their mid-90s slump anyway, as society was changing and WWE's cartoony style was outdated, but ECW getting the publicity and buzz it did definitely gave Vince and Easy E ideas for their own promotions- at least McMahon put Paul E on the payroll to give him something for all he did.

 

[Hulk Hogan's Brother]

It's really hard to say. The ECW, undoubtedly, did have an influence on the Attitude Era in the WWF. In fact, you could say that it was a precursor to it. The cruiserweights were also brought to the America by the ECW.

That said, nWo was an idea that Bischoff stole from some Japanese promotion so that would have happened with or without ECW. Again, Bischoff could have brought the cruiserweights over from Japan because he was so influenced by their product. Maybe, Stone Cold would also have developed his persona in the confines of WWF because he was showing some signs in WCW as well. Although ECW did help him a lot. Same with Foley. He had already had his share of brutal matches in WCW but in ECW, he was able to take go that extra mile. Shawn and HHH would have kickstarted DX with or without ECW.

I guess this goes to show that the Attitude Era was imminent but ECW did certainly help in ushering it in at a faster pace. But like I said nWo would have happened and that is what kickstarted the Attitude Era.

 

[justtxyank]

Yep, Bischoff "stole" the invasion concept from the UWFi invading New Japan. Or maybe it was New Japan invading All Japan. Or maybe it was when All Japan invaded SWS. Or Maybe it was when the UWF invaded WCW in the 80s, or when Continental invaded World Class in the 80s or when...

I give up.

 

[FromGlasgow]

I do think ECW was very influential during this time especially the attitude era which I think was developed from ECW's popularity but I can't see WWE not being here now if it wasn't for ECW and you could argue a lot of the ECW extreme style company was ripped off from FMW, Several guys did make a name for themself in ECW but the main ones said Austin first made his name in USWA with his great feud with Chris Adams, Then after his WCW run was only briefly in ECW before debuting in the WWF as the Ringmaster and even then I don't remember him being mega over so I don't think ECW done a whole lot for him and Cactus Jack I think made more of a name for himself in Japan and winning the king of death match tournament. I loved ECW back in the day so don't want to sound negative on it.

 

[Fenris]

Well let's clear up a few laughable myths, first.

#1: ECW introduced America to Lucha. Bullshit. Eric Bischoff did. When World's Collide PPV predates the Luchas and Cruiserweights making $15 per night in some shithole Bingo Hall in Philly. Likewise they were already doing dark matches in WCW several years prior to their brief stints in the Bingo Hall.

#2: they introduced Hardcore Wrestling. Nope. Championship Wrestling of Florida, Memphis and a few other territories were already doing Hardcore. Shit, WCW was even Hardcore years before some overrated Indy Fed from Philly.

So I guess the answer is no, he has no point. ECW was and is an overrated Indy Fed where Paul E. The mark liberally ripped off Kevin Sullivan, Eric Bischoff and Eddie Gilbert among others and bullshitted enough people into promoting his Shitty little Indy Fed for a couple of years.

 

[Jack-Hammer]

To an extent, I think he has a point. It's true that ECW did have an impact on WWF and WCW during the Monday Nigh Wars. It's a recognition that's come in retrospect as ECW's audience represented only a very, very small fraction of wresting. ECW did have an influence on storylines and the development of characters as well.

At the same time, however, I think that Heyman is exaggerating by quite a bit. For instance, ECW did not introduce "hardcore wrestling" as it had been around for decades. We all know that guys like Abdulla the Butcher, Bruiser Brody, Wild Bull Curry, The Shiek and others were "hardcore" before the term ever became popularized. Several NWA affiliated territories employed their own regional versions of an NWA Brass Knuckles Championship. The version employed in the Dallas territory, later WCCW, was in continuous use for some 34 years and the Florida version for some 24 years.

As far as ECW introducing fans to the Lucha style, that's not exactly accurate. There were many well known Mexican wrestlers who were popular in America who employed a lot of elements of the Lucha Libre style long before ECW was around. For instance, the Guerrero Family and various other Mexican stars like Mil Mascaras saw a good deal of success in the NWA affiliate operating in Los Angeles during the 60s and 70s.

ECW took elements of wrestling that had long been out there, gave them a twist or otherwise jacked them up and exposed fans to them who hadn't seen those elements before, hadn't seen them in a long time or had even forgotten about them. Pro wrestling companies "steal", "borrow" or whatever term you wanna use from other companies and have since forever. Sometimes, they're able to put their own twist on a concept or wrestler to such a successful degree that it's associated with them even if they weren't the originators of it.

 

[MrTDG]

Well let's clear up a few laughable myths, first.

#1: ECW introduced America to Lucha. Bullshit. Eric Bischoff did. When World's Collide PPV predates the Luchas and Cruiserweights making $15 per night in some shithole Bingo Hall in Philly. Likewise they were already doing dark matches in WCW several years prior to their brief stints in the Bingo Hall.

#2: they introduced Hardcore Wrestling. Nope. Championship Wrestling of Florida, Memphis and a few other territories were already doing Hardcore. Shit, WCW was even Hardcore years before some overrated Indy Fed from Philly.

So I guess the answer is no, he has no point. ECW was and is an overrated Indy Fed where Paul E. The mark liberally ripped off Kevin Sullivan, Eric Bischoff and Eddie Gilbert among others and bullshitted enough people into promoting his Shitty little Indy Fed for a couple of years.

Yes, when World's Collide predates ECW bringing in the luchas by a full year, but seriously, what luchador was working regularly in the states in the mid 90s until ECW did it? Did he introduce the style? No, that's false. Most of the things ECW/Paul Heyman states they innovated was only brought back and/or repackaged. However, it is interesting to note that WCW didn't have these luchadores wrestling on WCW Pro, Saturday Night, or any of their other shows at the time of that PPV you mentioned.

ECW gave them a platform to perform on regularly and from there Bischoff signed that talent away to round out his roster. And while there were "hardcore" matches taking place all over America long before ECW was a thought, they did have some influence and got both major promotions to change the presentation of their product.

Also, the idea that WCW was hardcore died the moment they signed Hogan.