Does Messi need the World Cup to become the greatest?

[Dowdsy McDowds]

Lionel Messi has arguably been the best player not only in Europe but in the world over the past few years. Brought over from Argentina as a youngster to Barcelona who invested heavily in his physical development to overcome a growth deficiency hormone problem, as well as taking him and his father over to Barcelona as he settled into the youth team.

Only 24 now, he was already being nominated for the Ballon D'Or (Footballer of the Year award) as well as several other big accolades by the time he was 21, and has consistently been in the reckoning ever since.

In such a short career, he has won several La Liga titles as well as 3 Champions League medals and a scattering of further domestic and european cups. This week he became Barcelona's joint 2nd goalscorer of all time by notching up 194 goals with a brace against BATE Borisov in the Champions League. He managed this in just 279 games. The past 2 seasons have seen him yield 47 and 53 goals in all competitions respectively and he has 14 to his name this season so there is a chance he could become Barcelona's top goalscorer in all competitions by the end of the current season. The magic number is 235.
(note Wikipedia informs me the top all-time goalscorer has 357 goals to his name, so still some way to go before he reaches that level http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_FC_Barcelona_records_and_statistics#Goalscorers)



What made such footballers like Pele and Maradona be able to lay claim to being the best of all time was their success at the World Cup, with both being praised for essentially winning the competition single-handedly for their respective countries. (I don't necessarily agree with this however.)

Such accolades on the big international stage as well as performing for their domestic clubs all helped their cause, but in international competitions with Argentina, Messi has not shone as brightly as he does with Barca.

Until this happens, will this keep Messi from being considered an all-time great, or is he on course to succeeding without having to win a World Cup?

 

[mikde_]

Honestly i really do not rate messi as the best in the world. I really think C. Ronaldo is far more talented. Heres why...

Messi has never brought his A game to the international level unlike ronaldo whose form transcends both his club and international career.

Ronaldo destroyed every team in the English premier league during his time at Man U and has took that form with him to madrid. I seriously doubt messi could handle the Premier League and have as much success as ronaldo did.

I really believe that without Xavi, iniesta and villa. Messi is just a good player, not a great player.

I think messi is really in his comfort zone at barcalona and id seriously love to see if he could continue form in another league. But i seriously doubt it.

I cant see him ever winning a world cup in his career because argentina are just not producing enough quality young players to be able to compete with the world elite.

 

[nazzac]

Nah. He has got to win it almost single handedly. Win the league with a poor side single handedly

 

[Dowdsy McDowds]

Honestly i really do not rate messi as the best in the world. I really think C. Ronaldo is far more talented. Heres why...

Messi has never brought his A game to the international level unlike ronaldo whose form transcends both his club and international career.

Ronaldo destroyed every team in the English premier league during his time at Man U and has took that form with him to madrid. I seriously doubt messi could handle the Premier League and have as much success as ronaldo did.

I really believe that without Xavi, iniesta and villa. Messi is just a good player, not a great player.

I think messi is really in his comfort zone at barcalona and id seriously love to see if he could continue form in another league. But i seriously doubt it.

I cant see him ever winning a world cup in his career because argentina are just not producing enough quality young players to be able to compete with the world elite.

I'm not too sure how accurate that is to be honest. While Ronaldo did score 8 goals in qualifying for the 2008 Euros, he only scored 1 in the tournament himself. In the same year, Messi was part of the Argentinian team that won gold at the Olympic games. Not quite the same scale, but the records show Messi has a winner's medal for his country. Both men do have poor scoring records at major competitions though.

 

[Paralyzer Z]

Of course he does!

many players have been called "the best in the world right now" and have not ended up in the history books as one of the greatest of all time. Pele, and maraddonna (forgot how to spell his name) won world cups and are considred some of the best in football(soccer) history.

 

[Dowdsy McDowds]

Of course he does!

many players have been called "the best in the world right now" and have not ended up in the history books as one of the greatest of all time. Pele, and maraddonna (forgot how to spell his name) won world cups and are considred some of the best in football(soccer) history.

I think the difference between the Pele/Maradona generation and today's generation, is that the World Cup seems to have lost a bit of it's shine due to big players and teams not always rising to the occassion. It's a fantastic spectacle, don't get me wrong, but the Champions League seems to be the competition that highlights the world's elite now on a more consistent basis, and with Messi being instrumental to at least 2 (maybe not so much the first) of the 3 wins Barca have had in the last few years I just wonder if the World Cup is still the measuring stick?

 

[a0161613]

No-one in the right mind would say that Messi is not the best player in the world right now. Ronaldo is getting by at Madrid, hardly setting the world alight. He is in a great team and that helps but he is the focus point of everything that they do.

He'd be just as influential in another league. He and Barca destroy teams all over Europe (including the Premier Leagues' "best" in Man Utd).

If Argentina could get their coaching and defenders on the same world class level & depth as their attackers then they would be among the best in the world. To be ranked as the greatest, he would have to drag them to a World Cup as well as dominate for a number of years. It will be interesting to see if he gets injuries later in his career and how well he copes with getting older. He won't be able to be a right winger/false number nine when he is 33.

Honestly i really do not rate messi as the best in the world. I really think C. Ronaldo is far more talented. Heres why...

Messi has never brought his A game to the international level unlike ronaldo whose form transcends both his club and international career.

Ronaldo destroyed every team in the English premier league during his time at Man U and has took that form with him to madrid. I seriously doubt messi could handle the Premier League and have as much success as ronaldo did.

I really believe that without Xavi, iniesta and villa. Messi is just a good player, not a great player.

I think messi is really in his comfort zone at barcalona and id seriously love to see if he could continue form in another league. But i seriously doubt it.

I cant see him ever winning a world cup in his career because argentina are just not producing enough quality young players to be able to compete with the world elite.

Once of the worst, most mis-informed posts I've read on this site. Crazy.

 

[Dowdsy McDowds]

It will be interesting to see if he gets injuries later in his career and how well he copes with getting older. He won't be able to be a right winger/false number nine when he is 33.

Interesting point. What I've always liked about him is that despite him taking a lot of kicks from opponents, he rarely makes a big deal out of them to try and get an opponent booked or sent off. It's likely that in the next few years all those kicks will add up to something that may slow him down, although his guile and awareness are arguably his biggest strengths over his speed.

Once he gets past 30, I could see him dropping back to Xavi's position and taking up the 'quarter-back' role. He has great vision and passing ability as well as being a team player, so I wouldn't expect him to kick up a fuss if that were to happen and the position still allows him to make late runs into the box to support the front men.

 

[Miko]

I'd say so, Messi is the best in the World surely, but who wouldnt look good with Xavi and Iniesta supplying them? Does anybody score easier goals than Pedro? Although it is to Pedro's credit that he's always in the right place, he's like Peter Crouch but a Peter Crouch that can take all his opportunities, not 1/10. Sorry, off topic.

Players like Pele, Maradonna, Eusebio and Zidane were the difference makers for their teams, without Messi Barcelona will still dominate, they've got goalscorers and match winners all over the pitch and for Argentina he doesnt really fire at all. Zidane is the latest example of one of the true greats, he won the World Cup for France, singlehandedly got them to another final (which because of him they lost, swings and roundabouts people). Paul Scholes could probably have been one of those, had he not been shoved on the left wing to make way for the vastly inferior Gerrard and Lampard and not been surrounded by long ball merchants. I guess theres only so much shit one man can carry.

On the other hand, Messi is only 23 years old, he's still got his entire career ahead of him and after a few years of maturing, he'll be a better player and maybe more able to lead Argentina to that World Cup. I wouldnt bet against him. Greatest ever though? You cant compare players now and then, different balls, boots, pitches, wages, different everything, although Pele probably still and always will clean house on all the others.

 

[BK Styles]

I don't think he needs to win a world cup, he just needs to perform well at a world cup consistently. At club-level, he is one of, if not THE best in the world at the moment, but overall, at both levels? You could argue it, but he needs that big performance at a big stage. Think of Ronaldinho in his prime; he was a destroyer at both levels, not just club level. For Messi to be considered a great, he needs to get his form onto the international scene.

All just my opinion, obviously.

 

[Brilliant Human Being]

Well, yes and no. Sure, it would be great to have a World Cup medal for him, but at the same time, the World Cup is nowhere near as important as it was in Maradona's day for example. Also, as mentioned in previous posts; the guy is only 23 years old. He has a good 10-12 years left in him providing he gets no horrific injuries, but I get the feeling that if he did sustain such an injury, then he would just adapt his game accordingly, much in the same way as Giggs at Man United. If he can do it, I see no reason why a superior player in Messi can't. For example, Ronaldo won't be able to have the same effect as a player in 10 years time because his game is all about pace and power. Messi has more about him than that, hence why he is the greatest player in the world, and hence why probably, even without the World Cup he will be regarded as the greatest ever.

 

[TWJC: The Beginning]

It's really difficult to tell. Messi plays on a team where team play is promoted and a lot of them "grew up" in their youth academies and all believe in the same thing. So is Messi the best all around player because he creates scoring opportunities through his play and passing or is it because he's the most talented player on a team with wonderful chemistry?

It's hard to ever judge the "greatest" in most team sports, and when your team is known as playing the most selfless, team-oriented style, it's even harder.

If he wins a world cup (will it be with Argentina I guess, I'm fairly new to soccer....football), I think that just adds to it but like anything else it's incredibly subjective. He's a fanstastic player that's really fun to watch.

 

[Dowdsy McDowds]

It's really difficult to tell. Messi plays on a team where team play is promoted and a lot of them "grew up" in their youth academies and all believe in the same thing. So is Messi the best all around player because he creates scoring opportunities through his play and passing or is it because he's the most talented player on a team with wonderful chemistry?

It's hard to ever judge the "greatest" in most team sports, and when your team is known as playing the most selfless, team-oriented style, it's even harder.

If he wins a world cup (will it be with Argentina I guess, I'm fairly new to soccer....football), I think that just adds to it but like anything else it's incredibly subjective. He's a fanstastic player that's really fun to watch.

Yeh it'll be with Argentina. If it ever happens!

I think the Barcelona academy system is perhaps the most common counter-argument to him being the best in the world due to Barcelona players pretty much all being raised with this style of playing football. I believe it was Glenn Hoddle last night that pointed out they don't play with a recognised centre-forward as they do not need to play the long-ball game to hit a target man, instead they just chase the ball down together then out-pass the opposition when they dominate possession.

So, whilst Messi is part of a machine, he is the most valuable part. A guy who can get 40+ goals a season is always going to be an asset. Do Barcelona have other talented players? Of course they do. But none of them compare to Messi's goal-scoring exploits, although Xavi and Iniesta's assists stats would no doubt rival or perhaps even surpass Messi's.

The majority of Barcelona's goals do come through their slick intricate 1/2 touch passes which is a result of their philosophy of keeping possession and wearing teams down. Against the big teams this is not always the case though, and Messi is so often the difference maker due to his own high levels of overall skill, like his goal against Real Madrid last season in the Champions League where he picked the ball up from Xavi then just waltzed through one of the best defences in the world.

 

[¡Roján!]

Honestly i really do not rate messi as the best in the world. I really think C. Ronaldo is far more talented. Heres why...

Messi has never brought his A game to the international level unlike ronaldo whose form transcends both his club and international career.

Ronaldo destroyed every team in the English premier league during his time at Man U and has took that form with him to madrid. I seriously doubt messi could handle the Premier League and have as much success as ronaldo did.

I really believe that without Xavi, iniesta and villa. Messi is just a good player, not a great player.

I think messi is really in his comfort zone at barcalona and id seriously love to see if he could continue form in another league. But i seriously doubt it.

I cant see him ever winning a world cup in his career because argentina are just not producing enough quality young players to be able to compete with the world elite.

Hey Cristiano, how do you get the time to post on WZ with your busy football schedule?

Anyway, back to the main post. Well, young Dowds, football has changed. In the times of Maradona and Pelé, International football was the pinacle of all professional football. Young kids dreamed of winning the World Cup and aspired to it. Now? Not so much. I, like Arsene Wenger, believe that the pinacle of professional football is the Champions League. I mean come on, let's face it International football is boring. The competitions only come along every 2 years and, for me at least, it only serves a football need during summer. The Champions League, however, is something I look forward to every fortnight. If I were a footballer, my main aspiration would be to win the Champions League. Although, being a nations hero is amazing it wouldn't entice me.

Now, to Messi, the man is a warlock. Saying that Cristiano Ronaldo is better than him is utter drivel. His passing abilities, his finishing ability, his dribbling ability is all sublime. The man barely puts a foot wrong. The media attention doesn't get to him, he's never in any big scandals. He just gets his head down and play the beautiful game. He really is a great role model. Does he need the World Cup? Never. I've never really believed in accolades determining how good as something someone is. If Messi played for Shrewsbury, I'd still believe he were the best player to ever live. He doesn't need jack.

 

[Peoples_Champ]

Until this happens, will this keep Messi from being considered an all-time great, or is he on course to succeeding without having to win a World Cup?

How many posts did it take before this degenerated into Messi v. Ronaldo?

To answer the original question - we need to look at the top ten footballers of all time, if Messi can crack the list, he'll be considered one of the best:

1. Pele
2. Cruyff
3. Maradona
4. Di Stefano
5. Puskas
6. Beckenbauer
7. Platini
8. Eusebio
9. Best
10. Zidane
http://www.football-history.net/best-players.htm

I don't think Messi needs to win the World Cup to be considered an all-time great. I think it's a given that he's on course to crack that list, so long as Barca continues to win domestically and in UEFA, while he continues to score. That being said, he will never be better than Pele or Maradona IMO.

I have the feeling Messi will always be saved from being blamed for Agentina's miscues. First it was Maradona, next it will be other strikers / defenders not playing up to their potential, then it will be attributed to Messi's exhaustion. In fact, I think if Messi does not win the WC, he will be seen with sympathy - someone who was the best but couldn't win the big one due to factors out of his control.

 

[shuckyducky]

Honestly i really do not rate messi as the best in the world. I really think C. Ronaldo is far more talented. Heres why...

Messi has never brought his A game to the international level unlike ronaldo whose form transcends both his club and international career.

Ronaldo destroyed every team in the English premier league during his time at Man U and has took that form with him to madrid. I seriously doubt messi could handle the Premier League and have as much success as ronaldo did.

I really believe that without Xavi, iniesta and villa. Messi is just a good player, not a great player.

I think messi is really in his comfort zone at barcalona and id seriously love to see if he could continue form in another league. But i seriously doubt it.

I cant see him ever winning a world cup in his career because argentina are just not producing enough quality young players to be able to compete with the world elite.

I think that's a great point you raise. Whilst undoubtedly (to me) Messi is one of the best in the world, he doesn't play so well for Argentina, and of course there's no Xavi, Iniesta etc there. Maybe he does rely on Barca.

 

[The Golden Sledgehammer]

Messi is great but Ronaldo is better. Free kicks, penalties, pace, strength, scoring from distance on either foot, heading, skill, Ronaldo wins in all of these categories, but he's arrogant and goes down easy sometimes so obviously all that goes out the window

Not a chance that Messi would be as good in the English Premier League as he is in La Liga, even if he brough Xavi and Iniesta with him, those two are HUGELY underrated, i'd like to see a thread asking wether they will be among the all time greats, They was in the team the day Messi made his debut and he isn't as good without them, that is backed up by his form with Argentina.

I don't think anybody needs to win the world cup to be considered one of the greatest. Marco Van Basten, Johan Cruyff and Ferenc Puskas never won the world cup, George Best and Alfredo Di Stefano never even played in a world cup and that was back when the world cup was really the only thing worth winning but any of them would grace any list discussing the greatest of all time. The world cup doesn't mean much now, that is backed up by all the top players that now retire from international football so early.

BTW i think Zidane is the best ever

 

[Loveless]

He can never even be considered as the greatest player ever unless he wins the world cup. He will always be compared to Maradona and the fact is Maradona won the world cup essentially on his own backed by a very average team.