Do you consider HHH to ever have been the "face" of Raw/WWE?

[AegonTargaryen]

We all know he's the king of kings, and a 13-time world champion and has done far too many cool things in wrestling in the 2000s- from Evolution to his rivalry with John Cena and Randy Orton. We all also know that HHH is often neglected or not mentioned in any single promo from one of those "Raw anniversary" shows which invariably put Rock and Austin on the forefront as the greatest of all times. (If I'm not mistaken, even the Rock's WM 30 promo had him mention Hogan, Austin, and Rock as the three great ones, or those two being the greatest as a token of humbleness). But the point is, HHH is invariably omitted. Even John Cena has now joined the elite list of "greatest">> Hulk Hogan>>Stone Cold>>The Rock>>John Cena. There's no place there for Bret Hart or Shawn Michaels is what I usually see. Sure, they were tremendous wrestlers, and even those 2 wrestling 2 mannequins would be more entertaining wrestling than Hulk Hogan but people generally consider the "larger than life" and "charisma" factor in determining the greatest. But I digress.

First of all, What factors or criteria do you use in order to determine who has been the "face" of a company/show? And considering Stone Cold and The Rock to have been the face of the WWF/E between 1998-2002, where does HHH stand post-2002(because it wouldn't be arguable that he wasn't even close to being "the face" as long as Rock and Austin were around. A heel champ, yes. "The face", no.)

Let us consider HHH's post-2002 career trajectory. The WWE is not only divided into two distinct brands, but Brock Lesnar as the WWE champion makes his championship exclusive to Smackdown. This compels Eric Bischoff to bring back the big gold belt and confer it on HHH, who would go on to hold that title 6(or more?) times and dominate the Raw brand as a heel champion until WM 21. But in the early days of his reign, from August 2002-2003, it was Brock Lesnar who was more of a "face" than HHH- 1)Brock was a babyface during that time. 2)He was intense, he was novel , he had magnetism or charisma. 3) His feuds and matches were more prominent in terms of quality and importance, and so did he close ppvs more times than HHH did(until the unibranded ppvs came along). Wrestlemania 19, for instance , was closed by Brock Lesnar vs Kurt Angle. So were Unforgiven and No Mercy 2002. It was not until Goldberg was featured that HHH and the WHC began to matter. Finally in 2004, Brock quits the WWE and HHH and Raw gained supremacy because the storylines going there and the star power simple was greater. Once John Cena debuted on Raw as the WWE champion, there was never any chance for HHH to be The face.

So, do you consider HHH to have been the face of the WWF, or Raw during 2002-2005? If yes, what criteria have you used to determine that?

 

[The Fabulous Rougeau's]

Yea I would consider HHH the face of Raw in that post Austin/Rock, pre Cena days. Now I would only call him the face of the WWE from the time between Brocks departure and Cena's arrival as a main eventer.

What made Trips the man during this time was that everything revolved around him. Doesn't mean it was right or successful, but nevertheless, I don't think one can argue that Trips was on top during that time. Try thinking of all the different main event feuds from Raw during that time and how many of them did not involve Trips. Without looking into it I would be shocked if he wasn't involved in just about everything major that went down during that time and that to me makes him the man during that time.

 

[JoeyJoeJoe]

He was the face of the WWE by default.

Once the Rock and Austin left he was the only legit person to make the focal point of PPVs. You can argue that he shared that limelight with Lesnar for a portion of that time, and I agree. However, Lesnar was the king of the mountain on Smackdown, not RAW -- the WWE's flagship show. Triple H shared that spotlight with a lot of up and comers that were tried out during that time frame: Benoit, Lesnar, Goldberg, Batista. It wasn't until John Cena moved to RAW and went on to beat Triple H at WM 22 that the tide truly shifted.

 

[Hillali2]

Personally, I seen him as a transitional champion between the rock and john cena. He was never as big as the rock or john cena at there best. I never saw him as the face of the wwe. I would compare his position to that of bret hart in the late 1990s.

 

[FlairFan2003]

From 2002-2005 clearly he was. He was the top star that all the top feuds revolved around on the biggest show the company produces (RAW), he worked with the biggest names (HBK, Flair, Goldberg) and elevated both Randy Orton and Batista into World Title worthy main eventers. Id say you could maybe extend that through 2006 although by that time I think Cena's popularity was taking hold and Edge was emerging as the top heel.

Anyone on Smackdown, including Lesnar, were second rate to the Raw guys, SD became the "B-Show" after the brand extension, used mostly for building new stars than promoting existing ones. Every once in a while a top star would get "traded" there but mostly they stayed on Raw (Batista & Flair for instance both returned to Raw after SD stints, as Cena's star rose he was sent to Raw). Undertaker was the lone anchor star on SD. Raw was the top show of the brand, got the biggest ratings, and had the most stars on its roster, and during that 4 year period after Rock & Austin left and before Cena became so popular HHH clearly dominated the major storylines, feuds, and matches. He was the Top Star in the company during that time.

 

[Seosa]

Looking back I think his heel run on Raw between 02 and 05 was probably the company's way of trying to mould him into a modern day Flair, i.e. a heel star leading the show. Again, whether it was the right thing to do or not is another matter.

Personally, I found some of the time dedicated to him torturous at the time. He held that belt 5 times in two and a half years. In fairness every time somebody won the belt from him it felt special because he had been built up as being unable to lose, though of course through heel means.

 

[thebarber]

HHH most definitely was the face of RAW circa September 2002 when he was hand gifted the World Heavyweight Championship from Eric Bischoff until 2005 when John Cena was switched to the red brand. Once Rock left in Auigust 2002, then returned on Smackdown in early 2003 and Austin being gone immediately after Mania 19, HHH was certainly the face and number one guy in the company.

 

[Creepy Old Man]

Hogan, Bret, Austin and Cena are the only guys I've ever associated with being the face of WWE. There were other major stars, but they were parts of the eras fronted by those men, e.g. Savage was part of the Hogan era, Michaels part of Bret's, Rock part of Austin's, Batista part of Cena's. Between Austin's departure and Cena's ascension there were some popular performers, but none asserted their position as "the guy", in my opinion. Brock Lesnar probably came closest, but it was really just a mix of guys carrying the load.

 

[Hillali2]

Anyone on Smackdown, including Lesnar, were second rate to the Raw guys, SD became the "B-Show" after the brand extension

Were you watching the same shows as me? Smackdown was the Alpha show. It was clearly the better show from 2002 until 2005. Brock Lesnar and Kurt Angle were every bit as much the star as Triple H. Triple H was the face of Raw, but I don't think Raw was the better show. No one will dispute that Triple H was the face of wwe raw, but I don't think a case could be made that he was the face of the wwe.

The face of the wwe is a term I would reserve for Hogan, HBK, Austin, Rock and Cena.

 

[JoeyJoeJoe]

Were you watching the same shows as me? Smackdown was the Alpha show. It was clearly the better show from 2002 until 2005. Brock Lesnar and Kurt Angle were every bit as much the star as Triple H. Triple H was the face of Raw, but I don't think Raw was the better show. No one will dispute that Triple H was the face of wwe raw, but I don't think a case could be made that he was the face of the wwe.

The face of the wwe is a term I would reserve for Hogan, HBK, Austin, Rock and Cena.

It was no doubt the better quality show, but Smackdown has always been Raw's little brother in the eyes of the WWE. Raw's the flagship. It just happened that at that time from 2002 - 2005, there were a lot of quality stars in the WWE to be able to support separate rosters for both shows. It's why when given the chance, wrestlers will migrate upwards from Smackdown to Raw via the thankfully defunct WWE draft.

 

[Kliq69]

Raw... Yeah. After the initial draft and title split, he was easily the biggest star left on that show at the time. You had guys like RVD and Kane headlining against him.

Smackdown had Rock, Angle, Taker, Hogan, and Brock at the time feuding over that belt. Raw had HHH facing guys like Kane, RVD, and Steiner. Outside of his short feud with HBK, the talent he was working with was literally the "B" team.

03 it got a bit better with Goldberg and Nash, but not by much. When half the main event guys on that roster were all guys who were headlining WCW and ECW when they folded, you know it's bad.

So Raw it was easily HHH's show during that time and probably up until Cena was drafted there.

Now WWE in general is a different animal. Rock left Summerslam 02, was back at Mania in 03, and Backlash the following month. Austin wrestled that Mania too. You had Hogan and his nostalgia run (which has been downplayed in the years to come, but god was it big when it as happening). You had Brock, who was pushed as a literal beast. IC title, KOTR win, Undisputed champion, won the belt 2 more times, rumble winner, and headlined mania in his rookie year. Angle headlined against Brock while HHH feuded with Booker.

04 was a weird year, as you can't really point to any single guy as the face. Benoit and Eddie had the belts part of the year, then JBL had one of them for a long time. Orton got his first title win... Hogan and Rock were gone or at least not wrestling. Austin was retired. Flair was going strong, as was Michaels, but neither really seemed to be "the man". Orton, Cena, Batista were all midcarders most of that year outside of Orton's failed initial run. Brock went home... Even Edge was still vying for midcard titles.

05 kick started Cena's run... Before 02, it was Austin/Rock. Before them it was HBK/Hart.

So face of Raw? Yes, most definitely from Fall of 02-04. Face of the WWE? Not for a single day.

 

[Kliq69]

It was no doubt the better quality show, but Smackdown has always been Raw's little brother in the eyes of the WWE. Raw's the flagship. It just happened that at that time from 2002 - 2005, there were a lot of quality stars in the WWE to be able to support separate rosters for both shows. It's why when given the chance, wrestlers will migrate upwards from Smackdown to Raw via the thankfully defunct WWE draft.

Not at that time... You forget that's when WWE was trying to raise Smackdown's value due to the expiring UPN contract. They ended up with the WB (CW).

Smackdown had:
Rock
Hogan
Angle
Taker (not initially, but before the titles split)
Brock (not initially, but when titles split)
Big Show (traded late 02)
Jericho
Edge

Raw had:
HHH
HBK (not drafted, but put in program as free agent with HHH)
Nash
Hall
Waltman
Booker
Benoit (not drafted, but returned to Raw after injury)
RVD

To be fair, Raw also had Austin, but not in a wrestling capacity at all... During this time, he also "took his ball" and went home.

The star power divide is even more evident when you look at the position on the card at the time... Nash was injured that summer (famous quad injury heard round the world), HBK wrestled as SummerSlam, at Survivor Series, and at the december ppv. Other wise, he was pretty inactive. Hall was hall, and Waltman was nothing without the other nWo members. Booker, RVD, Benoit had never held a World title in WWE (WCW title sure, but not WWE or WHC).

Smackdown had nearly every single Undisputed title holder, outside of HHH. The only one on that list who wasn't a former champ was Edge and he was just about to be pushed to the moon before his injury. When you look at the lower ends of the roster, it gets even worse. SD had the tag champs, lance storm, kidman, got mysterio, christian, test, hurricane. Raw got Dreamer, boss man, bubba ray, mighty molly, and a lot of other junk.

It started evening out in 03 and further in 04, but at first it was easily apparent Smackdown had all the star power...

 

[Wolf Pac]

Of course he was. Triple H was the "John Cena" of the WWE from Sep 02 - Jun 05 until John Cena came over to Raw and took over as the new face of the company. It was around Triple H's time that people started to turn their backs on the WWE because of the man himself. Anytime someone would give the WWE flak, they would blame Triple H and only Triple H, much like they do John Cena now. No matter how good Smackdown still was, they wouldn't even give it a thought because by that point the WWE to them was all about one man, the boss' son-in-law. If Triple H were on Smackdown...well Paul Heyman said it best at One Night Stand 2005, "the only reason why JBL was WWE Champion for 8 months was because Triple H didn't wanna work Tuesday nights", and that also applies to when Brock was the face of Smackdown. Like some posters have already said, Smackdown may have been the better quality show in 02 - 03 but Raw was always the A-show and everybody was secondary to Triple H including Brock Lesnar. It's the period between December 2001 to September 2002 where I don't think any one man was the face of the WWE but Triple H was the clear face after.

 

[Sundar]

Until Brock Lesnar quit in 2004, he was the undisputed face of the company. He beat Flair, Hogan, The Rock, Taker, Big Show, Angle, Benoit, Edge, Booker and if I recall correctly he also beat HHH cleanly at a house show back in September 2002. He was King of the Ring, won the Royal Rumble and was on the cover of Smackdown: Here Comes the Pain videogame and was the strongest superstar in that game with HHH being a close second. He headlined WM19 and was also on the cover of Summerslam 2003 if I remember correctly. He had way better and more memorable matches such as the Hell in a Cell with Taker, the classics at WM and Summerslam vs Angle and the ring collapsing match on Smackdown vs Big Show.

HHH on the other hand had the WHC handed to him after Lesnar had already left to Smackdown, which made the WHC look more like a consolation prize in my eyes, which really is the case. Despite being represented by the Big Gold Belt the WHC has always been considered to be the runner up title. There were brief periods of time when the WHC did look like it was the more important title, such as when the Elimination Chamber matches were held and when Benoit won it at WM20 but for the most part the WWE title was and will always be the company's flagship title.

It was a Smackdown superstar who won the Royal Rumble in both 2002 and 2003 and this was at a time when Paul Heyman was booking Smackdown. Orton and Batista were rookies at the time and HHH was feuding with the likes of Steiner, RVD and Booker T. Michaels apparently did not want the title so there were no credible opponents for HHH to feud with and HHH hardly ever got a clean win, which made him look weak as well. I have no ideas about the ratings at the time but to me Smackdown was the wrestling show with superior athletes whereas Raw was mostly a soap opera with older, washed up guys. The only thing Raw had over Smackdown was the women's division, The women's title was on Raw and they had the likes of Trish, Jazz, Victoria and so on. HHH never got a singles win over Goldberg on PPV but Brock was booked to beat Goldberg at WM20 and the decision was reversed only a few weeks prior to the event when Vince came to know Brock was leaving. Until Cena and the WWE title came to Raw, Smackdown was the superior brand in my eyes. Between the time that Brock left and Cena went to Raw there was no face. This was a transition period where the company had suddenly lost a number of stars such as Austin, Rock, Goldberg and Brock and so new ones such as Orton, Batista and Edge were being groomed while veterans such as Eddie and Benoit were rewarded for their dedication. I wouldn't say HHH was ever the face of the company. He was simply forced on us due to lack of talent on Raw and because he married Vince's daughter.