Do statistics matter in wrestling?

[CM Steel]

Just got through watching the film Moneyball in which the movie focuses on baseball statistics. So with that being said, does statistics matter just as much in wrestling? Like former WWE champion CM Punk held the WWE title for over like 430 something days. But that does make Punk the greatest WWE champion of all-time doesn't it? No. Statistics at the end of the day are just numbers. But to some wrestling fans statistics are just as good to follow as the Undertakers winning streak at Wrestlemania.

Another example. Chris Jericho, the former 9X WWE IC champion. The first & only record of it's kind in the WWE. But some WWE fans label wrestling legend the Honky Tonk Man as "the greatest IC champion of all-time". With him holding the WWE IC title for a record 15 months before losing the IC strap to the Ultimate Warrior.

So all in all, do statistics really matter in wrestling?

 

[berlinbrawler]

It's a question of convencience. If a statistic is impressive enough, they milk it for what it's worth, and why shouldn't they? 400-somethingplus days as champion is impressive. 20-0 is impressive as hell. 9x-IC champion is impressive (sort of).

At other times, statistics and numbers can get ignores just as easily. They do it all the time. Never mind that he just came off a losing streak, losing 37 televised matches in a row - suddenly one guy is a main event level threat to the reigning champion.

Perception is reality in this "sport."

 

[Dirk]

Wins/losses also matter less than in a real sport (or "more real", if you will). A wrestler can still job and be made to look strong. I would say that those records are more props than anything and it tells a story about the wrestler's booking.

 

[deadtaker]

Statistics don't really matter that much in fake wrestling. Being 16x world champion is not the same as being a 4 time superbowl winner or 10 Stanley cup winner.

Its a marketing ploy. Like saying Avatar is the highest grossing movie of all time or a movie was nominated for 11 academy awards. Its impressive but doesn't really mean to much.

Counting wins and losses in a pre-determined sport doesn't matter. 20-0 sounds great and sells stuff for wrestlemania but its not the same as the Miami heats 23 game winning streak.

 

[Jack-Hammer]

In the grand scheme of things, by which I mean when you compare pro wrestling to completely legit sports, then the answer is no. That's not to say that they don't matter to wrestling fans, however.

As fans, in all honesty, it's an impressive accomplishment when someone is a multiple time World Champion. That's especially true if said World Champion is someone that's both over and has a lot of ability. It's kind of the same when it comes to wins & losses. I'll sometimes read part of a blog in which a dirtsheet writer will complain that wins & losses don't feel like they "matter" anymore. I can't help but think that you have to be an ultimate level smark to really get so worked up about it. They're trying to apply logistics that apply to real world sports into a sport that they know for a fact is choreographed with a fixed outcome. If you're someone that watches wrestling frequently and pays attention, then you can usually figure out who is going to win a wrestling match before the match even begins by comparing the two wrestlers & their careers. Most of the time, they still find something to complain about even if the outcome of the match isn't what they figured.

I think what matters most are the wrestlers and the stories they're able to tell in the ring. Wins & losses can matter in that sense but, ultimately, what fans care more about is being entertained and seeing a good payoff for the attention that's been devoted to matches & feuds. A wrestler can ultimately lose, and lose frequently, but still look like a star.

 

[Mustang Sally]

Statistics can never matter in a "sport" in which results are pre-determined, because it's the Creative team that's responsible for the numbers, not the performers.

It reminds me of an old WCW story (that may or may not be true) that involved Goldberg negotiating a new contract, telling management his salary should be larger "based on his great won and lost record."

Again, I don't know whether this really occurred, but if it happened in any form, it would indicate that the man was delusional, no? Or maybe he was pointing out that the company thought enough of him to push his ass to the moon and that should be enough to justify giving him more money now.

In any event, while it's fun to watch the wrestlers boasting about their stats, these numbers mean nothing..... except for show business purposes.

 

[Slyfox696]

It depends entirely upon which statistics you are using and how you look at them. For example, if you tell me Wrestler A's match record was 20-12 on Raw last year, that does not mean a whole lot. But if you tell me Wrestler A main-evented 8 out of 12 PPVs, that does mean something.

If you tell me Steve Austin won the Intercontinental title at Summerslam 1997, it doesn't mean a whole lot. But if you tell me Steve Austin was drawing the interest of hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of fans throughout 1997, that means quite a bit.

You might tell me Kane and Bruno Sammartino have won the WWE heavyweight title(s) the same number of times (2), and it wouldn't mean much. But if you told me Kane's first reign was one day and Bruno's first reign was 7 years, that would mean quite a bit, chiefly that Bruno Sammartino was the leader of the company and Kane was not.


Statistics matter. You just have to know which statistics to use and how to look at them.

 

[George Steele's Barber]

From the fan's perspective I would generally say "No". Wrestling fans don't delve too deep in to numbers the way fans do in other sports. Most fans don't get in to the numbers beyond winning streaks and championships. Of course why should they when everything is pre-determined?

However, did you know merchandise sales are 20% higher when Heath Slater is performing than anyone else? Did you know that Cody Rhodes averages the fourth most crowd noise at PPVs? Did you know that Brodus Clay's is the number selling toy to grandmother's of autistic grandchildren? No, well that's probably because I made it up. But it makes me wonder how deep WWE digs in to their numbers? What their analysts are looking for in order to capture the next big revenue generator? Are they parsimonious in their analysis or does Vince have them building complicated models to assess the amount the correaltion of the amount of material in a Diva's ring gear to bathroom visits?

But again to the fan's statistics aren't that big of a deal.

 

[MrMojoRisin]

Sly's right about what statistics actually matter in wrestling... but they're not ones that a fan would actually care about.

Do NHL fans care about how many jersey's that Wayne Gretzky sold in his career? No, but they do care about stats like his 215 point season.

Do NBA fans care about how many more tickets Wilt Chamberlain sold each game, or do they care about his 100 point game? It's the 100 point game.

Talk to an NHL or NBA exec though, and they'd be more excited about the number of jerseys Gretzky sold, or the number of tickets people bought just to see Chamberlain.

Guys who are making their living off of the business care about stats like who's a better draw, but that shouldn't really matter to a fan, who's sole investment in the business is looking for enjoyment from it.

But where manipulated wrestling stats can matter, is if the fans buy into them, which then creates a connection with the wrestler achieving the stat and makes them care more about him... because once that happens, then the wrestler becomes a better draw which at the end of the day, is the only thing that matters in wrestling.

Ric Flair is a 16 time World Champion, and one of the all time great draws... in part because fans have bought into his legacy as a 16 time World Champion. If I'm a promoter, I just need a little bit of time, and I could make say Fandango a 17 time World Champion... or as many times as I wished. I could have Fandango crush Flair's mark, because it's not as if Flair set that record by being such a better competitor than anyone else. Would I make Fanango a better draw by doing that though? Not likely... especially considering how quickly I decided to have him break the record. But he would have that mark now instead of Flair.

Stats in wrestling only matter if the fans buy into them. Otherwise, they're meaningless.

 

[Howie Backpack]

i think its changed in my mind since everyone (even the wrestlers) just openly admits that its fake. back in the day, when u had wrestlers trying to fight anyone who said it was fake, it was at least easier to get carried away with the statistics. but now that everyone does shoot interviews and talks about everything behind the scenes, its a lot harder to take numbers seriously. when ric flair was 12 time world champion it seemed to mean something. at least it did to me, maybe becuz i was a lot younger. but basically, to me, i think openly fake statistics dont mean much. but when u had the old school guys who lived to protect the business, numbers were more impressive.

 

[fenderjapan]

Sly's right about what statistics actually matter in wrestling... but they're not ones that a fan would actually care about.

Do NHL fans care about how many jersey's that Wayne Gretzky sold in his career? No, but they do care about stats like his 215 point season.

Do NBA fans care about how many more tickets Wilt Chamberlain sold each game, or do they care about his 100 point game? It's the 100 point game.

Talk to an NHL or NBA exec though, and they'd be more excited about the number of jerseys Gretzky sold, or the number of tickets people bought just to see Chamberlain.

Guys who are making their living off of the business care about stats like who's a better draw, but that shouldn't really matter to a fan, who's sole investment in the business is looking for enjoyment from it.

But where manipulated wrestling stats can matter, is if the fans buy into them, which then creates a connection with the wrestler achieving the stat and makes them care more about him... because once that happens, then the wrestler becomes a better draw which at the end of the day, is the only thing that matters in wrestling.

Ric Flair is a 16 time World Champion, and one of the all time great draws... in part because fans have bought into his legacy as a 16 time World Champion. If I'm a promoter, I just need a little bit of time, and I could make say Fandango a 17 time World Champion... or as many times as I wished. I could have Fandango crush Flair's mark, because it's not as if Flair set that record by being such a better competitor than anyone else. Would I make Fanango a better draw by doing that though? Not likely... especially considering how quickly I decided to have him break the record. But he would have that mark now instead of Flair.

Stats in wrestling only matter if the fans buy into them. Otherwise, they're meaningless.

I agree...
Flairs 16 world titles are meaningful because of their history and breadth... the fact that they came in All Japan, NWA (Mid Atlantic, Central States, etc. etc.), WCW, WWF, and the fact that he was a champion regularly in those promotions over the course of 20 years...his first World Title coming in 1981 and his last in 2000.

 

[Slyfox696]

Sly's right about what statistics actually matter in wrestling... but they're not ones that a fan would actually care about.

Do NHL fans care about how many jersey's that Wayne Gretzky sold in his career? No, but they do care about stats like his 215 point season.

Do NBA fans care about how many more tickets Wilt Chamberlain sold each game, or do they care about his 100 point game? It's the 100 point game.

Talk to an NHL or NBA exec though, and they'd be more excited about the number of jerseys Gretzky sold, or the number of tickets people bought just to see Chamberlain.

Guys who are making their living off of the business care about stats like who's a better draw, but that shouldn't really matter to a fan, who's sole investment in the business is looking for enjoyment from it.

First of all, I'm not disagreeing with you, I am elaborating.

Second of all, you're comparing apples to oranges. In the NBA, quality of a player is determined by statistics like points per game, rebounds, etc. It's not determined by number of fans brought to the game.

In pro wrestling, however, the quality of a wrestler IS determined by statistics like drawing ability and amount of merchandise moved. % of merchandise sold is equivalent to a batting average. PPV drawing ability is the equivalent to goals scored in the NHL.

The problem with the idea of the "fan's perspective" is that the so-called fan's perspective is not focusing on the correct thing. Pro wrestling is scripted, so focusing on win/loss record (with no other context) is a waste of time. But, from a TRUE fan's perspective, just like an NBA fan knows LeBron plays 40 minutes a game because he averages 25-8-6 (or whatever it is), true wrestling fans know John Cena main-events every Wrestlemania because his drawing ability is second to none and his merchandise moves greater than most of the roster combined. In each case, we understand WHY something happens based upon the statistics, and from this, we can predict future success.

 

[MCMG]

I want to say yes, but in the end it is fake wresting. People try to compare it to real sport but it is a very very loose comparison. I'll use football (soccer) as an example. Arsenal went a whole season undefeated. Not because they were booked to or their opponents each week were told to loose but because they actually physically defeated their opposition each week.

Cm Punk's title reign would not have lasted for so long if he wasn't talented but it is different. His incredible reign could have ended the second McMahon wanted it to.

 

[VinnieSunshine]

Statistics only matter in when the specific company makes them relevant. WWE doesn't really follow them unless it makes sense storyline-wise.

Example...Undertakers streak. It only matters for one reason...WRESTLEMANIA! If it wasn't Wrestlemania, if it was just some bland generic in-between PPV like, say Backlash or something...would the streak REALLY matter.


Win/losses only matter for storyline too. Take Ryback/Goldberg. Characters that were built up to be industructible/unbeatable. Yet Ryback losses due to...interference? From a random character?
Same with Cena/Punk. Cena never beat Punk, in all the 6 matches they had. But Cena FINALLY beats Punk because Cena had to beat him to face Rock. Do we care that Cena could never beat Punk? Do we care that Cena lost 6 times? But WWE made it known because it fit the story.

 

[Ruthless-RKO]

Only when WWE want stats to matter, they will bring it up.. For the time being we're going to here CM Punk talk alot about his 430+ days as champ, or until he nexts fights for the WWE title, you'll hear him mention it..

There are plenty of stats that wwe can look at but don't until it's needed to be brought up.

 

[ted sheckler]

No stats don't really matter. An example is "Mr Wrestlemania" has lost more matches than anyone else at Wrestlemania!! The only time stats matter is when they make it part of someones gimmick.. Longest running IC champ.. Steaks..etc..

 

[Jonyboyuk2]

I think statistics matter in wrestling as much as anything else that they build correctly. The recent CM Punk title record was so well executed - it made the WWE title matter more. And in turn - CM Punk matter more. He hasn't had the belt in 8 weeks and yet it still feels like its him that is the WWE champion (in part due to the WWE champion on a promotional tour for his new film - which I think is good for business). I would LOVE the WWE to do the same kind of thing with the IC title and the Tag Title belts - make them mean more. They are an easy tool to use to get the viewers and crowd invested in the product and yet they don't get used to their potential at all.

 

[theBec2101]

I don’t think so. I would consider some stats maybe. For instance maybe the longest matches must ridicule bumps, time in the royal rumble. The longest matches and time in the rumble because that is tough and has to be better played out so you can maintain throughout the match. And with the harder bumps I’m talking Jeff Hardy and Shane O Mac free falling the chair shots Mick took from the Rock and ect. Also I think injuries would be a good stat.
Other than that win and losses, even championships not really. It’s all played out and written pre determine. The streaks and everything shouldn’t really count. If you were to take the stat of championships for instance you could be a 16 time World Champion but unless you retire with the belt you lost the championship 17 times so you should count that.