Dirty Tactics Or Just Business?

[The Brain]

For many years during their rivalry the WWF and NWA/WCW used what some would call underhanded tactics to gain the upper hand in their competition. Some think each company raided talent from the other at various times. The more famous shots fired during the war took place with the debut of WCW Monday Nitro in 1995. WCW took advantage of Raw being preempted to debut their new show which was highlighted by the surprise return of Lex Luger who just 24 hours earlier was wrestling for the WWF. Once they started going head to head WCW announcers infamously gave away results to taped Raw shows to keep the audience from changing the channel. This was looked at as a very dirty tactic. For those who think that was dirty let’s rewind eight years earlier.

It's Thanksgiving night 1987 and the NWA is putting on its biggest event of the year, the 5th annual Starrcade. It was on this night that the WWF decided to expand its pay per view schedule and present the first Survivor Series. Putting on a ppv directly opposite of your competition’s biggest show may seem pretty low but it’s reasonable to think that the WWF wanted that night because it was a big holiday and it had nothing to do with the NWA. Maybe reasonable to think so but probably also pretty gullible. Even if you want to believe that the WWF was only focused on the holiday and not the competition you’d have a hard time explaining the following. Vince McMahon threatened any cable company that broadcasted Starrcade would not be allowed to broadcast WrestleMania IV. After the hugely successful WrestleMania III most cable companies were eager to carry WrestleMania IV and as a result did not carry Starrcade 1987 which no doubt crippled Starrcade’s buy rate. In retaliation the NWA aired a pay per view quality show on free television the night of WrestleMania IV. This show featured the breakout performance of Sting as he battled NWA champion Ric Flair in a 45 minute draw in what was easily the best match of the night from either show. A year later the NWA put on another free show opposite WrestleMania V which featured the second match of the famous trilogy between Ric Flair and Ricky Steamboat. These events from the late 80s weren’t nearly as publicized as the Monday Night War of the late 90s but the bad blood was boiling just as hot back then.

Now that we’re done with the little history lesson I have a question for you. Do you view these actions as dirty tactics that should not have taken place or are you of the feeling that all is fair in wrestling and war? Business is business, right?

 

[martymcfly]

Hmmm...interesting ethical question.

How about this though....using a recent Black Friday as an example, is it dirty tactics to research and find out your competition is opening at 5am, so you open your doors at 4am?

Is it dirty tactics for a Pick N Save grocery store to accept newspaper coupons that were specifically created by its competitor, Piggly Wiggly?

Is it dirty tactics for xbox live or playstation network to allow you to download games for $20 to dissuade you from going to a video game store and purchase it used for $20, in order to line their pockets instead of the game store?

There's no easy answer to any of these, but to me, the answer is yes to all of them. Severity of the end result may differ, and you can call it what you wish (wise business strategy, taking a strike against competition before they get a chance to strike against you), but it's pretty much the same.

But for me...

"Do you view these actions as dirty tactics that should not have taken place..."

Yes.

" or are you of the feeling that all is fair in wrestling and war? Business is business, right?"

Yes.

 

[HBsam31]

In my opinion while they are underhanded things to do, business is business. It follows the same principle as a Mcdonalds setting up shop right next to the mom and pop burger joint. These types of things are seemingly done in all types of businesses. Its a nasty thing to do but all is fair when you want your business to be profitable

 

[Sinister Shadows]

The only ones of these that goes past "just Business" is the giving away of results the other's shows, and the deal with Vince and Starrcade in 87. Hiring away talent, I don't see how anyone can have a problem with that as they had fulfilled previous obligations, producing a show on the same night of starrcade was even fine. but going out trying to basically bribe companies not to air the other company's show is bullshit.


Many people call out WCW for the results, saying that they was cheap with how they went about business, but Vince basically caused a large portion of the friction, and it really would have been poetic justice if he would have failed during the Monday Night Wars.

 

[Azane]

Business is Business, it's a cuthroat industry.
Vince Mcmahon's legacy is going to be about how he's screwed everybody on his rise, and these examples are just more to add to his resume.

Putting himself on the line to block Starcade, and potentially kill WM, he had just as much at stake as the cable companies did. Business risk, and nothing illegal was done (I'm not a lawyer, so correct me if there's some blackmail law I'm unaware of)

Giving away the results is fair, because it should of been incentive to do it live, and also, that one bit them in the ass when the butts in seats was the turning point of the MNW

 

[The Idiot]

To be honest with you...I think it's all fair. Everything. Even if you go out there and give away the results like Bischoff did....WWE doesn't like it, then find a way to go live like your competition.

It's business. You can call it dirty, but in the end it's about succeeding and to do that you have to beat your competition. More viewers = more money.

Years earlier, as you mentioned....the cable companies wanted to broadcast WM 4 because of the highly successful WM 3. They chose this over Starrcade. What do you do about it? Create bigger stars, have better storylines, better matches and more people will tune it. They finally did this in 1996 with the birth of the nWo. They found their way. There was no way Vince could tell the cable companies what to do anymore.

And as far as hiring away talent....well that's the basics right there. Pay your employees more and they won't leave. Business 101.

 

[Kizzani]

AS far as the actions being ethical that is left for others to decide. But business is business. If you think you can take over a shows time slot and you have a good enough product then you go after the money. Prime example Monday night football Vince McMahon knew that was the biggest mountain to climb and he went right after it, even to make his own league to try and compete. No one in their right mind tries to compete with the NFL on SuperBowl Sunday you can't win.

This shows proof that WWE/Vince are not out to hurt TNA if they were they would just schedule PPV's on the same day as TNA's and Squash that little bug before it starts, they could move smackdown to Thursdays and do live shows, TNA would all but shrivel up and die. It would become a indy type promotion.

As for WCW they were up and coming Vince tried to derail the train before it got started, just like he would do if any other company started to pick up steam, buying out rosters, double booking events etc. They like to say competition breeds a better product but competition also limits your income.

 

[Foshinzo]

As biased as it sounds, I'll say that, with your given examples, WWF was just playing business, but the WCW was just playing dirty.

First of all, Survivor Series was a Thanksgiving PPV, and as big of a holiday as that is to exploit, the NWA shouldn't have been shocked that of all the days of the year, WWF would consider Thanksgiving as a time to put on a big show anyway. If Vince had picked a random September show to put on a PPV against the NWA, then it would seem more petty. But, given this example, I don't think putting on Survivor Series during Thanksgiving is petty; it's a smart thing to do. It's probably why NWA was putting on a huge show then, to begin with.

However, when WCW gave away the taping results from Raw, that was just pathetic. It's like, "we can't put on a better show than them, so we'll just tell the fans what happens and ruin it for them." I think in this one petty move, WCW proved that they didn't care about the wrestling fan, but all they wanted was your dollar.

If they ruin Raw for you, then you'll have no choice but you stay with them and watch their show to get your wrestling fill. It was dirtier to the fans than the WWF. WCW pulled a lot of dirty crap back in the day, but this was one of the most pathetic. I don't even care that it wasn't fair to the WWF, it was just embarrassing for the WCW.

 

[Rowdy Robby Piper]

As biased as it sounds, I'll say that, with your given examples, WWF was just playing business, but the WCW was just playing dirty.

First of all, Survivor Series was a Thanksgiving PPV, and as big of a holiday as that is to exploit, the NWA shouldn't have been shocked that of all the days of the year, WWF would consider Thanksgiving as a time to put on a big show anyway. If Vince had picked a random September show to put on a PPV against the NWA, then it would seem more petty. But, given this example, I don't think putting on Survivor Series during Thanksgiving is petty; it's a smart thing to do. It's probably why NWA was putting on a huge show then, to begin with.

However, when WCW gave away the taping results from Raw, that was just pathetic. It's like, "we can't put on a better show than them, so we'll just tell the fans what happens and ruin it for them." I think in this one petty move, WCW proved that they didn't care about the wrestling fan, but all they wanted was your dollar.

If they ruin Raw for you, then you'll have no choice but you stay with them and watch their show to get your wrestling fill. It was dirtier to the fans than the WWF. WCW pulled a lot of dirty crap back in the day, but this was one of the most pathetic. I don't even care that it wasn't fair to the WWF, it was just embarrassing for the WCW.

If what WCW did was "playing dirty" then what do you call the WWF buying out Georgia Championship Wrestling/the Black Saturday situation? Would that be considered "business" as well, to buy out your competition just so you can expand your audience/marketshare/demographic while at the same time eliminating a source of employment opportunity? Just because Starbucks moves across the street from a Mom & Pop Coffee Shop doesn't mean it'll be a successful business venture...

 

[PlayTheGameHHH]

Business is business. You have two shops right across the road from eachother, one has a huge price cut deal, and the other doesn't...

See what I'm getting at? It doesn't mean shit to promoters. We might see it as dirty, but they don't care.

 

[Mustang Sally]

As far as business between the Big Two, it's all fair. Yes, WWE broadcast directly opposite Starrcade in 1987.....and yes, WCW returned the favor in 1995. Both actions were intended to hurt the other company. Obviously, Vince McMahon had gotten used to being the guy who put smaller wrestling companies out of business by either absorbing them or forcing them to close their doors. In '87, he was still basking in the glow of stealing guys like Hulk Hogan and Paul Orndorff, while riding the wave of his "Rock & Wrestling" connection. Feeling invulnerable, he decided to go after a company that wasn't on shaky financial shape to start with, and WCW absorbed the blow from Starrcade and stayed in business.

When Ted Turner (and then Time-Warner) invested major bucks years later, a lot of folks were probably thrilled to see McMahon squirm under the pressure of having the tables turned on him. Yet, look who had the last laugh; despite being out-financed in a major way, McMahon wound up knocking WCW out (admittedly, with huge help from WCW themselves). To my mind, it was the financial equivalent of your high school baseball team declaring war on the New York Yankees......and winning.

No, there were no coincidences in both companies airing their major PPVs in direct confrontation with each other....... and no unfairness in their doing so. The only counterpoint I'd make is that it was the fans who may have suffered, since they had to choose one or the other.

But, as a business practice, All's Fair in Love and (RAW is) War.

 

[THTRobtaylor]

It certainly was a business decision to add a 2nd PPV to the WWF schedule. Thanksgiving was the obvious time as it guaranteed a family audience that day. NWA was still southern based but WMIII was so successful that WWF needed a 2nd (and later a 3rd) PPV in the year to showcase the talent properly and maximise their momentum That WCW/NWA were caught short by it was their own fault.

WCW did use "dirty" tactics by giving away results, but it backfired for them in immediately causing a surge to see Foley's title win... Was "stealing" talent by offering big money dirty? No, they could offer what they wanted and talent were within their rights to take it; just as when Vince expanded with territory talent. Many questioned Vinces ethics, but he always cut deals rather than destroyed, guys like Stu Hart didn't lose out when Vince could easily have just taken their territory. Remember for every Verne Gagne or Bill Watts there was a Paul Heyman, who Vince bankrolled to keep going. ECW was good business for WWF of the 90's, the AWA or UWF were not in the 80's and Watts and Gagne were their own worst enemies.

WWE of today has no need of those kind of tactics, it has no need or interest to destroy TNA cos they have learned that they need competition to thrive and besides, the one common thread throughout the WWF's rise is that their enemies are generally headed up by people who make shed loads of mistakes... Vince rarely makes any... thats the difference.

 

[Kizzani]

However, when WCW gave away the taping results from Raw, that was just pathetic. It's like, "we can't put on a better show than them, so we'll just tell the fans what happens and ruin it for them." I think in this one petty move, WCW proved that they didn't care about the wrestling fan, but all they wanted was your dollar.

How does this differ from "Dirt sheets" reporting the results of smackdown or TNA impact? Personally I approve of this tactic simply because it does exactly what it should, it give me an idea if I should waste my time watching the show. After 3 years of always tuning in to TNA I decided the show just is not worth watching thanks mostly in part to wrestle zone giving me all the info I need.

 

[Davi323]

How does this differ from "Dirt sheets" reporting the results of smackdown or TNA impact? Personally I approve of this tactic simply because it does exactly what it should, it give me an idea if I should waste my time watching the show. After 3 years of always tuning in to TNA I decided the show just is not worth watching thanks mostly in part to wrestle zone giving me all the info I need.

Probably because people choose to click the links to the results, and those that don't want to know can avoid it. People watching WCW Monday Nitro had no choice but to listen to the inane banter of Tony Schiavone, unless they were smart and muted their TV...It's a difference of choice vs. being forced.

 

[Dagger Dias]

It depends on how you define the word "fair". Sometimes desperate times call for desperate measures. While us fans were enjoying some of the best pro wrestling we had ever seen, both companies were fighting for their lives. Things like giving away results are definitely hitting below the belt, but if your very survival depends on your ratings then you will do what it takes to defeat your opponent. I don't condone everything that either WCW or WWF did during the time, but I can understand why they went to the lengths that they did because you find yourself doing things you would normally never do if you have no other choice. They were just trying to keep their respective federations alive. Had it not been for the ratings rivalry then these tactics would certainly not have been going on.

 

[HonkyDong Man]

I don't accept the notion that just because its business anything goes. Capitalism is a great idea. Corporate or state monopoly is not.

Dirty tactics is a way of trying to uphold, or create such a monopoly. And a monopoly has never benefited neither the free market nor the consumer. I would go as far as to say that a capitalist monopoly equals, and in many instances is worse than communism.

Vince McMahon threatening the cable companies just goes to show how a monopolist thinks and acts. He obviously didn't have enough faith that his own product would beat the competiton, so he had to resort to, yes, dirty tacticts.

I don't care how much money Vince McMahon has made. Just because he's on the top of the current food chain doesn't mean that he has (or had) the best product out there.

As for the WCW announcers giving away the results of the taped RAW that's a whole different ballgame. Cheap? Maybe. Dirty tactics? No.

 

[ShinobiMusashi]

The WCW broadcasting Raw results was not dirty. It was the WWF's fault for not doing a live show.

Vince Mcmahon threatening cable companies that he would pull Wrestlemania IV from them if they broadcast Starrcade 87 was dirty. It was bad enough that Survivor Series was on the same night, was that not enough? The clean thing to do would have been to just try to put on the better show, and outdo the WCW with quality.

 

[FlairFan2003]

The war between Jim Crockett Jr & Vince in the 80's to me was much more interesting than the mid to late 90's Monday Night Wars. Fact is, Crockett had the same kind of unified wrestling mega company ideals that Vince did, they were great competition for each other, but Vince and his guys were slicker in promotion of their product.

Remember, before Vince, wrestling companies largely stayed out of each other's core territories, Vince started changing that, truly marketing WWE all over the US. Crockett almost immediatelt followed suit.

Vince forced arenas to sign exclusivity agreements that they could not house NWA shows or WWE would no longer appear there. This was effective in cities were both companies were very popular like Chicago & Philadelphia, Vince saw what happened in Pitsburgh, one of WWE's core cities since it's inception, when NWA shows were actually outdrawing WWE shows for awhile at the Civic Arena.

The Survivor Series thing was a definate slap in the face to the NWA. Starrcade ruled Thanksgiving, it had been established as Thanksgiving viewing for four years, the numbers the show was bringing in despite the holiday were terific for the time (million dollar grosses in an era without Pay Per View and ticket prices not above $20). The whole concept of WrestleMania was derived by Starrcade's success as an annual SuperShow. The idea of SS was to take a chunk of SC's business. In 1987 pay per view was in it's infancy, WWE had had modest success with WrestleMania, so NWA was moving in, of course with their Super Show. Vince actually told cable systems that they could not offer both events or he would not offer any future WWE events to them. Since WWE was there first many operators caved, except in the south and parts of the mid west where NWA was more popular than WWE. It may have been a dirty tactic, but it was business.

Anyone who complains about WCW giving away match results should get their head examined. That was a brilliant move, showcasing the unpredicatbility of LIVE Nitro vs the usual, boring over done AND taped RAW. Certainly Vince recognized then value of driving a steak through the competitions heart in 1991 when, after crowds began chanting "We Want Flair" during WCW events and radio stations urged WCW boycotts after they let him go, Vince paraded the big gold Title belt, the absolute symbol of the WCW Championship, all over his TV shows for a month proclaiming the arrival of "The Real World's Champion".

Both those events were business, the opposition either was unprepared or royaly screwed up and the other company capitolized. WWE ran insipid parodies of WCW stars like Hogan, Savage, and Goldberg as if to minimize their importance to he audience, of course doing this when they were losing in the ratings. WCW trotted Lex Luger out on Nitro's debut epsiode, just hours after he worked SummerSlam, and my personal favorite, Rick Rude live on Nitro, trashing WWE left & right, as he appeared at the very same time in a taped segment on RAW - some say it was dirty, others saw it as classic business opportunities taken.

As far as raiding talent, Vince did much more of that in the 80's/early 90's than WCW or WWE did in the late 90's. Vince made a fortune promoting, and building his company, on the success of Hogan (AWA), Piper (NWA), Steamboat (NWA), Greg Valentine (NWA), Rick Rude (WCCW & NWA), Jake Roberts (NWA/Georgia), Curt Henning (AWA), Randy Savage (Mid South), Ted DiBiase (Mid South), all major wrestling stars before they ever set foot in WWE. This hapened long before he signed Flair, Road Warriors, Tully Blanchard & Arn Anderson, and Luger. These guys were major stars, known commodities to the wrestling audience, already trained in performing in the ring and on the mic, great business move. WCW basically copies it in the mid 90's bringing back Flair and bringing in Hogan, Savage, Hall, Nash, etc but in business what's good for one is good for all.

Vince didnt prevail because he was a meaner guy or dirtier player than Crockett, he was just better at handling his money (Crockett way overpaid for the UWF, and got saddled with their outstanding debts too, a deal Vince never would have made) and he certanly wasnt meaner or dirtier than Eric Bischoff (many wrestlers over the years have complained about the dificulty working for him). Vince was just better at booking entertaining TV, and using all of his talent better - No doubt Eric had him on the ropes for awhile but it's been talked to death how his booking grew stale, he underutilized young talent liker Jericho & Guerrero because they were not a part of the NWO angle, misused Flair & Sting, tried to hard to appease Hogan, etc.

Crockett also messed up financially by expaning into other territories too fast, Vince would saturate local TV with his product, but appear live in those areas only a few times a year at first to make it more of a special event, eventually giving it the feel of being bigger and better than the core territory was. He also did not spend a lot of time in places where other promotions were very strong, like NWA strongholds such as Carolinas, Georgia, Kentucky, etc. Crockett wanted to hold monthly or bi monthly shows in these other areas, making travel expensive and splitting the dollars of local wrestling fans who still cared about the core promotions product. Travel expenses became huge for Crockett, and the returns diminsihed quickly where as Vince worked his core areas regularly for money, only running live shows in other promotions territory in limited fashion. Crockett tried to up the ante and it failed, he would have been better served doing most of his live business in his core areas, following Vince's lead.

Bottom line, it makes fascinating reading, but it wasnt dirty - and the other guys either tried the same things before, or did other tactics just the same as Vince.

 

[FlairFan2003]

The WCW broadcasting Raw results was not dirty. It was the WWF's fault for not doing a live show.

Vince Mcmahon threatening cable companies that he would pull Wrestlemania IV from them if they broadcast Starrcade 87 was dirty. It was bad enough that Survivor Series was on the same night, was that not enough? The clean thing to do would have been to just try to put on the better show, and outdo the WCW with quality.

With regards to airing both shows on the same night in 1987, Vince couldnt let that happen - he may have had a more polished look to his product, but the NWA product was much stronger back then in terms of match quality and entertainment. If wrestling fans could easily view both shows Vince ran the chance his product would look bad in comparison, the NWA had much better wrestlers across the board and typically did better matches in ring. For business sake he had to squash that bug so to speak.