Did WrestleMania IV Need The Tournament?

[The Brain]

As we all know WrestleMania III was a historic event for the WWF. Even though there were two before it, WM3 is the show that created the mania legacy and established it as the biggest show of the year. We all know the main event was the heavily anticipated match between Hulk Hogan and Andre the Giant which drew over 90,000 fans to the Pontiac Silver Dome. It was a perfect show for 1987. What about 1988? After an epic main event drew such a big house in 1987 the WWF had quite a challenge to make WrestleMania IV as compelling. What main event match could have possibly created the same buzz as Hogan vs. Andre? The answer is none. Since no individual match was going to generate as much excitement as Hogan vs. Andre the WWF came up with a one night tournament to crown a new champion. The WWF title was vacant and 14 guys were given the opportunity to become champion.

The idea seemed good on paper but as much as it wounds my old school soul to say it, WM4 was kind of boring. A tournament to crown a new champion seems exciting but with the stakes so high it makes a lot of the matches simply unnecessary. Even at eight years old I knew Don Muraco vs. Dino Bravo was pointless. Even though WM4 was simply not going to be able to match up to WM3 do you think it would have been better if it was just a regular card and not a tournament? If you think so and want to add a little more go ahead and write out your WM4 card. Just remember this is non spam so if you’re only going to make up a card be sure to do so within the rules.

 

[The Brain]

Here’s my WM4 card if they decided not to do the tournament. I’ll list the matches in the order I think they would have gone on.

The Rougeau Brothers vs. The Hart Foundation

A solid tag match to open the show. The Rougeau Brothers are the faces and the Harts are heels. I always thought Bret’s face turn at WM4 was a little unusual since it didn’t involve Neidhart or Jimmy Hart at all. After WM 4 The Harts started having some problems with Jimmy but I don’t remember any explanation. I think a miscommunication here causes an upset win for the Rougeau Brothers and the seeds are planted for a Hart Foundation face turn but it doesn’t happen yet.

Ken Patera vs. Dino Bravo

Bravo just set the bench press record a couple months earlier and was getting a push as a powerhouse wrestler who hated America. Ken Patera was a US Olympic power lifter. Pretty simple. Bravo wins as he is on the way up and Patera is on the way down.

Ricky Steamboat vs. Rick Rude

These two had a minor feud in early 1988 and wrestled against each other on the house show tour. This could have easily gone to mania. Rude would have gotten the win as he was a hot new mid card heel and Steamboat was out of the WWF after mania.

Don Muraco & Bam Bam Bigelow vs. Butch Reed & One Man Gang

In late 1987 Reed and Gang stopped Superstar Billy Graham’s comeback with an attack that officially ended his in ring career. Muraco tried to save Graham which led to Graham becoming Muraco’s manager. Bigelow was popular and would have been a good partner for Muraco to try to neutralize the size of the Gang.

Jake Roberts vs. Greg Valentine

Not every match needed a feud or personal storyline during the early years of mania. Sometimes just putting two guys that have a similar place on the card together works. That’s what happens here.

Ultimate Warrior vs. Hercules

These two had a feud going and actually wrestled each other at the real WM4 so this stays as is.

Hulk Hogan vs. Andre the Giant (Steel Cage Match)

They had already wrestled each other twice by WM4 so I see this being the blowoff. The cage is there to give the match an extra boost since we’ve seen this match before. Cage matches were still a big deal so this would have created enough excitement to overcome a WrestleMania repeat. I’ll get into a bit more detail later. Hogan wins.

Junk Yard Dog vs. Bad News Brown

A bit of a calm down match after one of the main events. By 1988 JYD had fallen down the card so he would be used here to put over the newcomer.

Honky Tonk Man vs. Brutus Beefcake (IC Title)

Stays as is from the real card.

British Bulldogs & Koko B. Ware vs. Islanders & Bobby Heenan

Stays as is from the real card.

Strike Force vs. Demolition (Tag Titles)

Stays as is from the real card.

Jim Duggan vs. Ron Bass

See Roberts vs. Valentine. Calm down match before the main event.

Ted Dibiase vs. Randy Savage (World Title)

Here’s my dilemma. Is Randy Savage challenging Ted Dibiase for the title a big enough match to main event WrestleMania? You’re probably thinking ‘of course it is, it really happened.’ It did really happen but it was not announced that way and wasn’t expected to sell the show. The tournament sold the show and Savage and Dibiase happened to be the finals. What if it was announced like a regular card? Is Savage vs. Dibiase good enough? I think it could have been if Hogan vs. Andre in the cage was also used to sell the show. Here’s the setup.

Everything goes down as it did up to the Main Event with Andre surrendering the title to Dibiase. Instead of Dibiase being stripped, he is allowed to keep the title. Hogan naturally wants a rematch for the title but since the guy that beat him isn’t champion anymore Hogan needs to get back in line for a title shot. The next SNME features a 20 man battle royal with the winner getting the title shot at mania. Hogan gets in the battle royal and Dibiase makes sure Andre is in there to eliminate Hogan. Dibiase watches from ringside and distracts Hogan allowing Andre to sneak up from behind and eliminate him. It comes down to Andre and Savage. Dibiase wants Andre to win so he can have an easy match at mania by paying Andre off. Savage is overmatched considering it’s a battle royal. Hogan returns to the ring to distract Andre and help Savage eliminate him. Dibiase is furious as Hogan and Andre fight on the outside and setup their mania cage match. Savage gets the title shot at mania and beats Dibiase with the same finish of the actual show but in a much better match since it would likely get more time and be Savage’s only match of the night.

This may not be the best card in the world but I think it makes for a bit of a better show than the tournament.

 

[HBsam31]

Well Brain we have finally come to a topic where I actually disagree with you. I am a bit surprised you found Mania 4 boring. For me there is nothing like a well done tournament, and I believe this one was well done. I even made my own bracket for this event as a kid. It started out with a 20 man battle royal which is another one of my favorite matches in wrestling, and it even featured Bret Hart's face turn. It may not have been the official turn, but the seeds were at least planted when he attacked Bad News and broke up the trophy. We also had a tag title match with Strikeforce and Demolition. Entertaining match with Fuji's cane costing Strikeforce the titles, and basically their partnership as that event lead to their breakup a year later. I can see how you could say that the matches like Muraco vs Dino Bravo were useless, but that did kind of change when Andre and Hulk both got disqualified. I was in shock that one of the two of them were not going to be in the finals, and at the time I though damn, anyone can win this tonight. Lets talk about Savage and the way he was booked in the tournament. He had to beat Butch Reed in a hard fought match, then Valentine, followed by One Man Gang who was coming off of a bye. Savage was dominated in that match and won by DQ only after Gang tried using Slicks cane on him. Three matches down and then he has to face The Million Dollar Man also coming off a bye. My point here is the deck was as stacked against Savage about as high as any deck has been stacked against any wrestler ever, and he won anyway. After the performance he put on, what fan was not salivating for Savage to win the title, and when he did it was an awesome moment. I actually rewatched this event last Xmas when I got the Mania anthology and I was just into the tournament as I was as a kid. For me it was an edge of my seat night, and despite all of the odds being in favor of The Million Dollar Man, Savage still had his night. I can't see Wrestlemania 4 being done without that tournament. The matches may not have all been the greatest, but the atmosphere of there is going to be a change tonight more than made up for it in my opinion. For me Savage and the tournament were essential in trying to keep pace with Mania 3.

 

[asiatic7]

Everything goes down as it did up to the Main Event with Andre surrendering the title to Dibiase. Instead of Dibiase being stripped, he is allowed to keep the title. Hogan naturally wants a rematch for the title but since the guy that beat him isn’t champion anymore Hogan needs to get back in line for a title shot. The next SNME features a 20 man battle royal with the winner getting the title shot at mania. Hogan gets in the battle royal and Dibiase makes sure Andre is in there to eliminate Hogan. Dibiase watches from ringside and distracts Hogan allowing Andre to sneak up from behind and eliminate him. It comes down to Andre and Savage. Dibiase wants Andre to win so he can have an easy match at mania by paying Andre off. Savage is overmatched considering it’s a battle royal. Hogan returns to the ring to distract Andre and help Savage eliminate him. Dibiase is furious as Hogan and Andre fight on the outside and setup their mania cage match. Savage gets the title shot at mania and beats Dibiase with the same finish of the actual show but in a much better match since it would likely get more time and be Savage’s only match of the night.

This may not be the best card in the world but I think it makes for a bit of a better show than the tournament.

Brain, I always find your topics compelling. I think in hindsight, It was a geat idea to have a tourney as Wrestlemania 4. The tourney is what gives 4 it's own distinct feel and appeal. Did it do a good job in following WM3 in terms of box office or legacy? No. But it did help to establish Savage as a main eventer and push DiBiase as a top heel because if you think about it, who was going to top Andre as the top heel when he was done? Andre was on his last lap so to speak. He was working very minimum after that with short term feuds like trying to establish Warrior as a top guy. So, WM4 succeeded as far as making new fresh stars.

Brain, you and I as well as HBsam31 were the same age when this PPV happened. If you felt like I did at the time, you would remember how much of a deuche Ted DiBiase was as the Million Dollar Man character. You remember how good it felt to see Savage as a face champion with Liz by his side, so you would have to admit that WM4 did at least push them in the forefront deservingly. The Andre/Hogan feud did'nt need the belt anymore. They were both bigger than wrestling at the time like how John Cena is now. They didn't need the title.

I think I understand what you mean by saying the ppv itself wasn't all that great, because most of those matches were dull and lackluster at best, but just on concept alone, I think the tourney was a great idea because of what I stated earlier...It gives WM4 it's own feel. Great post, your always entertaining and have great topics!

 

[The Brain]

The matches may not have all been the greatest, but the atmosphere of there is going to be a change tonight more than made up for it in my opinion. For me Savage and the tournament were essential in trying to keep pace with Mania 3.

I think I understand what you mean by saying the ppv itself wasn't all that great, because most of those matches were dull and lackluster at best, but just on concept alone, I think the tourney was a great idea because of what I stated earlier...It gives WM4 it's own feel. Great post, your always entertaining and have great topics!

I think you guys have a good point here. I've actually thought about posting this thread many times but never did because I can't make up my mind how I feel about it. I actually loved WM4 as a kid despite knowing most of the people in the tournament didn’t have a chance of winning. It just doesn’t hold up very well for me. As I said before, tournaments are great on paper but when the stakes are too high you can easily eliminate more than half the field before the first match. Watching Dibiase vs. Muraco and Savage vs. Valentine was just a formality and you could feel that during the event. Something like KOTR works much better because anybody can win.

The tournament just didn’t seem very competitive to me. Only one match went more than ten minutes and it wasn’t even the final. Even Hogan and Andre only got five minutes. Cards like this just seem to go through the motions without any thought or effort until the final. I appreciate having Savage go over four guys in one night to become champion but the tournament just didn’t seem like enough of a struggle for him. Going into the final his three prior matches combined to about 15 minutes. It’s like we were just automatically supposed to be extremely impressed that Savage beat four guys but when you really look at it he kind of cruised through the tournament. I would have liked it much more with one key change, and for those who have read my posts over the years you’re about to read this for about the tenth time.

Steamboat should have beaten Valentine. This would have set up Savage vs. Steamboat in round two. This would have been the competitive match that the tournament desperately needed. Just picture it. Savage vs. Steamboat at mania again one year after their classic match. This time both are face. Savage is on his way to the top and Steamboat is on his way out of the company. The fans are already behind Savage but another thrilling match with Steamboat puts them behind him even more. The stage could not be set more perfectly for Steamboat to return the favor (pardon the cliché) from WM3. Savage beats Steamboat in another thriller and they shake hands out of respect as Savage goes on to win the tournament. Savage, using so much energy to beat Steamboat, is now in more of an underdog position. Most importantly we get a great mania match. That’s what WM4 was missing. There just wasn’t a single match that stood out on the card.

Knowing there was going to be a new champion at WM4 was a key point in selling the show. It probably was necessary to follow WM3 with something more unique than a standard card like the one I proposed. I think a more competitive tournament with better and longer matches would have helped a lot and not leave me thinking about what else could have happened.

 

[starkmoto]

the thing is, wrestling was still seen as real to a lot of people back then, and it still had that real feeling. That tournament was kinda like an olympic tournament, Lithuania still plays against Japan in the olympic basketball tournament even though most fans know that neither will win the whole event, that was the way it felt with some of those matches, boring? maybe, maybe not. The truth is that maybe this tournament would've been better off at a lesser ppv or a SNME, it was a bit of a lack luster mania, MDM vs Macho would've been good if they pumped it up right and had MDM be champ leading in, too bad. Hogan definitely stole the spotlight from mach at the end. I once read that mach once pulled a gun on hogan in the locker room and told him to stop holding him down.

 

[HBsam31]

Steamboat should have beaten Valentine. This would have set up Savage vs. Steamboat in round two. This would have been the competitive match that the tournament desperately needed. Just picture it. Savage vs. Steamboat at mania again one year after their classic match. This time both are face. Savage is on his way to the top and Steamboat is on his way out of the company. The fans are already behind Savage but another thrilling match with Steamboat puts them behind him even more. The stage could not be set more perfectly for Steamboat to return the favor (pardon the cliché) from WM3. Savage beats Steamboat in another thriller and they shake hands out of respect as Savage goes on to win the tournament. Savage, using so much energy to beat Steamboat, is now in more of an underdog position. Most importantly we get a great mania match. That’s what WM4 was missing. There just wasn’t a single match that stood out on the card.

After reading this it really makes me wonder why they didn't go this route. Was Steamboat in severe outs with Vince in that they wouldn't even let Steamboat win a match to get to the point of putting Savage over because you are right this would have been absolutely perfect. This would have given us the match of the night that I agree the ppv did lack. Wow I am still shaking my head at the fact that this rematch didn't happen. Would have made Savage's story all the most sweeter.

 

[HBKperfect23]

Keep in my mind, I was not watching in 88 (I was 3)and had to watch everything after the fact....which just isnt the same.

First I have a few questions: Wasnt Savage at the time that turned face during WM4? Am I wrong there? Was he teasing a face turn leading into WM? Was he a tweener?

I did enjoy the tourny. I think some of the matches were weak but I think overall was pretty good. Hogan/Andre in a cage could have been the draw with Savage/Ted for the title pulling in the technical wrestling fans, but I think they went the right route selling the show to the Hulkamaniacs who thought Hogan was going to win. Im sure that was part of the reasoning, so they didnt have to sell a Hoganless main event.

 

[thebarber]

I think that after the first three Mania's, Vince needed to do something big, and this included the first time the WWE Championship changed hands. Hogan was never going to pass the torch in 1988 by pinfall to Savage, so the tournament to me was a great way to really elevate Savage. having him beat 4 heels in a row to raise the title was a first in WWE.
I do agree though that alot of the tournament was a no -brainer which way results would go. The rest of the card I am happy to leave alone as feuds had gone for months leading to Mania 4.
If they did not have the tournament, how do they make Mania 4 a massive success in an arena that fit well under 20,000 people.
In regards to Steamboat, he was in the dog house from June 1987 when he asked for time off for the birth of his child. He was supposed to drop the title immediately to Butch Reed, nut he know showed the tv taping, so the decision was made to pop the belt on Honkytonk Man. Steamboat did return to be a sole survivor at the initial Survivor Series and went over Rick Rude at the first Royal Rumble so having him get buried to Valentine, the only reason that can be deduced is they didnt want face vs face in the tourney, and further more, they didnt want them to steal the show when the whole build up was for the Savage vs DiBiase match with Hulk's assistance. Knowing the politics, Hogan probably suggested Valentine going over Steamboat was the way to go.

 

[GameOver]

WrestleMania 4 and 5 were pretty average but 4 moreso was a way to write Hogan out for a while so he could go make a movie and it showcased Macho Man's talent unless ofcourse you go with the rumor mills that say Dibiase was meant to win the title but Macho threw a hissy fit. Still i think when it all comes down to it, the right person one and WrestleMania 5 mega powers exploding was a good match to finish it off

Personally i like the tournament style, they should've done it more often not necessarily for the world title but maybe the #1 contender spot or the IC title.

as for the original question, yes i do think they needed it since they weren't gonna do Andre vs Hogan 2 in another main event and the Trump Plaza was small so even if they did book the match it wouldn't have brought in the same live audience numbers. and it was different, they'd never done it b4 and was years b4 the King of The Ring tournament was a PPV.

 

[GameOver]

I think that after the first three Mania's, Vince needed to do something big, and this included the first time the WWE Championship changed hands. Hogan was never going to pass the torch in 1988 by pinfall to Savage, so the tournament to me was a great way to really elevate Savage. having him beat 4 heels in a row to raise the title was a first in WWE.
I do agree though that alot of the tournament was a no -brainer which way results would go. The rest of the card I am happy to leave alone as feuds had gone for months leading to Mania 4.
If they did not have the tournament, how do they make Mania 4 a massive success in an arena that fit well under 20,000 people.
In regards to Steamboat, he was in the dog house from June 1987 when he asked for time off for the birth of his child. He was supposed to drop the title immediately to Butch Reed, nut he know showed the tv taping, so the decision was made to pop the belt on Honkytonk Man. Steamboat did return to be a sole survivor at the initial Survivor Series and went over Rick Rude at the first Royal Rumble so having him get buried to Valentine, the only reason that can be deduced is they didnt want face vs face in the tourney, and further more, they didnt want them to steal the show when the whole build up was for the Savage vs DiBiase match with Hulk's assistance. Knowing the politics, Hogan probably suggested Valentine going over Steamboat was the way to go.

Butch Reed was at the taping HTM won the title so why wasn't the title put on him instead? he was in the background after the match celebrating with Honky that rumor is partially bullshit, maybe the real reason was he was meant to win b4 that night but no showed other TV tapings so they threw in the towel on him and gave it to Honky which also set up a long lasting storyline by accident with Honky's reign being the longest for decades to come. and Ricky was not sole survivor at the initial survivor series, Randy Savage, Jake the Snake and Ricky Steamboat won so he was part of 3 winners..

the rest of your statement is partially true, Steamboat was in the doghouse for wanting time off so soon after his WrestleMania III win, he reckons it was cause they upstaged Hogan vs Andre but Savage was in that match too and he got a push as a result of it. anyway he retired for a while after WrestleMania 4 so it was a moot point.

 

[shooter_mcgavin]

Even at eight years old I knew Don Muraco vs. Dino Bravo was pointless.

To this point you are right ... I wasn't a wrestling fan yet at the time but I guess people knew that these two weren't going to be Champs. I guess the point of the tournament format is the journey of how the "favorites" will get there. I guess that gives the format intrigue.

I think that after the first three Mania's, Vince needed to do something big, and this included the first time the WWE Championship changed hands. Hogan was never going to pass the torch in 1988 by pinfall to Savage, so the tournament to me was a great way to really elevate Savage. having him beat 4 heels in a row to raise the title was a first in WWE.

I think the original plan was to have Debiase win the title. I read from an article by Savage himself that he was supposed to win the IC Title but Honky Tonk Man didn't want to drop the belt to Savage at WM5 ( I am not sure why) so they decided to give Savage the world title instead. I am guessing the reason why the decided to give the title to Savage over Debiase is because Savage winning the IC Title is supposed to be a consolation prize to the fans since the heel was supposed to win the World Title. Of course that's my personal speculation.

 

[BC1978]

I would have liked to see Ted Dibiase run with the title. What I would have done instead of having Andre hand him the title was having Ted win it in a fluke fashion similar to the poke of doom but not that bad. Then the WWF Cameras would have caught Ted handing Andre a briefcase before the match.

Then we could have shown that Dibiase pulled $5 Million out of his bank account and the next day Andre deposited $5 Million.

As for the Tourny at WM4... I think it really put Savage over...

 

[aza1294]

I have mixed feelings for the tournament at Wrestlemania 4. In hindsight it seems like it was a good method of putting over Savage, which is a plus. But overall it made Mania pretty lackluster match quality wise. This was before my time so I only watched an old version of it a few years ago, so perhaps the thrill was lost on me, but none of the matches were particularly good and a lot of things could of been done better. Like you mentioned Savage vs Steamboat 2 could of been very good but they went against that and perhaps giving Hogan v Andre some proper time to really promote their rivalry by having an all out brawl for 10-15 minutes even after they're both disqualified then maybe that could of been good. So overall no Wrestlemania IV did not need the tournament, but the end result of Savage being victorious certainly justified the tournament setup

 

[silrock316]

Here’s my WM4 card if they decided not to do the tournament. I’ll list the matches in the order I think they would have gone on.

The Rougeau Brothers vs. The Hart Foundation

A solid tag match to open the show. The Rougeau Brothers are the faces and the Harts are heels. I always thought Bret’s face turn at WM4 was a little unusual since it didn’t involve Neidhart or Jimmy Hart at all. After WM 4 The Harts started having some problems with Jimmy but I don’t remember any explanation. I think a miscommunication here causes an upset win for the Rougeau Brothers and the seeds are planted for a Hart Foundation face turn but it doesn’t happen yet.

Ken Patera vs. Dino Bravo

Bravo just set the bench press record a couple months earlier and was getting a push as a powerhouse wrestler who hated America. Ken Patera was a US Olympic power lifter. Pretty simple. Bravo wins as he is on the way up and Patera is on the way down.

Ricky Steamboat vs. Rick Rude

These two had a minor feud in early 1988 and wrestled against each other on the house show tour. This could have easily gone to mania. Rude would have gotten the win as he was a hot new mid card heel and Steamboat was out of the WWF after mania.

Don Muraco & Bam Bam Bigelow vs. Butch Reed & One Man Gang

In late 1987 Reed and Gang stopped Superstar Billy Graham’s comeback with an attack that officially ended his in ring career. Muraco tried to save Graham which led to Graham becoming Muraco’s manager. Bigelow was popular and would have been a good partner for Muraco to try to neutralize the size of the Gang.

Jake Roberts vs. Greg Valentine

Not every match needed a feud or personal storyline during the early years of mania. Sometimes just putting two guys that have a similar place on the card together works. That’s what happens here.

Ultimate Warrior vs. Hercules

These two had a feud going and actually wrestled each other at the real WM4 so this stays as is.

Hulk Hogan vs. Andre the Giant (Steel Cage Match)

They had already wrestled each other twice by WM4 so I see this being the blowoff. The cage is there to give the match an extra boost since we’ve seen this match before. Cage matches were still a big deal so this would have created enough excitement to overcome a WrestleMania repeat. I’ll get into a bit more detail later. Hogan wins.

Junk Yard Dog vs. Bad News Brown

A bit of a calm down match after one of the main events. By 1988 JYD had fallen down the card so he would be used here to put over the newcomer.

Honky Tonk Man vs. Brutus Beefcake (IC Title)

Stays as is from the real card.

British Bulldogs & Koko B. Ware vs. Islanders & Bobby Heenan

Stays as is from the real card.

Strike Force vs. Demolition (Tag Titles)

Stays as is from the real card.

Jim Duggan vs. Ron Bass

See Roberts vs. Valentine. Calm down match before the main event.

Ted Dibiase vs. Randy Savage (World Title)

Here’s my dilemma. Is Randy Savage challenging Ted Dibiase for the title a big enough match to main event WrestleMania? You’re probably thinking ‘of course it is, it really happened.’ It did really happen but it was not announced that way and wasn’t expected to sell the show. The tournament sold the show and Savage and Dibiase happened to be the finals. What if it was announced like a regular card? Is Savage vs. Dibiase good enough? I think it could have been if Hogan vs. Andre in the cage was also used to sell the show. Here’s the setup.

Everything goes down as it did up to the Main Event with Andre surrendering the title to Dibiase. Instead of Dibiase being stripped, he is allowed to keep the title. Hogan naturally wants a rematch for the title but since the guy that beat him isn’t champion anymore Hogan needs to get back in line for a title shot. The next SNME features a 20 man battle royal with the winner getting the title shot at mania. Hogan gets in the battle royal and Dibiase makes sure Andre is in there to eliminate Hogan. Dibiase watches from ringside and distracts Hogan allowing Andre to sneak up from behind and eliminate him. It comes down to Andre and Savage. Dibiase wants Andre to win so he can have an easy match at mania by paying Andre off. Savage is overmatched considering it’s a battle royal. Hogan returns to the ring to distract Andre and help Savage eliminate him. Dibiase is furious as Hogan and Andre fight on the outside and setup their mania cage match. Savage gets the title shot at mania and beats Dibiase with the same finish of the actual show but in a much better match since it would likely get more time and be Savage’s only match of the night.

This may not be the best card in the world but I think it makes for a bit of a better show than the tournament.

Your answer to your question was answered in your paragraph about Savage and Teds match. Savage probably would NOT have been big enough to even carry the Main Event at WM5 if he didn't have WM4.

I think Vince and company did the right thing with the tournament because it allowed them to really put Savage on the map and set up the ground work for the Mega Powers exploding. The tournment win by Savage was a great way to build a secondary star to Hogan and set up like I stated a future Mania main event. If they went the traditional route, Savage isn't as big as he became in my opinion.

At the sametime I may be bias because unlike you I really ENJOYED WM4. To this day it is still my FAVORITE WM. I was 8 years old at the time BUT I say I may have been bias because Savage was ALWAYS my favorite wrestler. Even before he won the title I liked him more than Hogan and Warrior. So I guess it depends on the wrestling fan, to me the tournament was great and unique and is still the ONLY WM that didn't go your traditional road.

 

[THTRobtaylor]

I'm not going to disagree that the Tourney could have been done better, the problem they had was that most of the new "top guys" were new and not involved in WMIII.

DiBiase, Bam Bam, Rude, Duggan and One Man Gang were not in matches at the previous years show so using so many of them in the tourney was probably a mistake. It would be like a title tourney at this years Mania having The Shield, Cesaro, Big E. and Brad Maddox as half the bracket. Several guys who could have had a legit part in the tourney were involved in the Battle Royal. Bret Hart would have been a worthy opponent for a Ted DiBiase or Rick Rude.

The other thing they could have done was not have Hogan or Andre involved in it. That their rivalry had gone past the title and neither man was allowed to participate would have added a spin to the tournament that made it unique, we all kind of worked out neither would win but having it guaranteed from the start would have guaranteed interest.


If you were going without the Tourney, then I think Hogan Andre 2 would have worked in the cage, but without Andre's title win prior. Have Andre's career on the line if he can't win the title and DiBiase's attempted buying takes place right after he wins. Andre is appalled and swats DiBiase, leading to Virgil, OMG or Bundy and most of the heels attacking him and "injuring him" and Savage making the save.

Because of the controversy, Jack Tunney announces a new "event" called Summerslam, where the title controversy would be resolved with a one night "round robin" between Hogan, DiBiase, Savage and Honky Tonk Man (as the IC champ and top contender by rule)

Over the course of the night, Honky takes the pay off from DiBiase, shocks Hogan with a cheap DQ win but loses to Savage by someone "messing with him" and he loses it and challenges them, Warrior - Win as really happened.

Savage comes out on top after drawing with Hogan and DiBiase losing when Andre returns seeking vengence for his injury. After the match and Savage holding the title, he is attacked by his new foe.... Hulk Hogan who is furious at how events have turned out!

 

[BLeonard]

To simply answer the question, yes, I feel that WrestleMania IV needed the tournament. While some will recall that the first WWF PPV "The Wrestling Classic" featured a 16-man tournament, for many, this was the first ever tournament that they saw for pro wrestling and certainly the first for the Championship.

While putting together my own card, I followed three rules:

1: I wanted to have a Tournament for the WWF Championship.
2: I wanted to keep the Invitational Battle Royal to kick off the show.
3: I wanted to make sure that everyone who was on the actual card was on the show.

Now, I do think, in hindsight, that 14 wrestlers was too many to have. So, my solution would be an 8-man tournament Here's my first round:

Ricky Steamboat vs Rick Rude
Randy Savage vs Greg Valentine
Ted DiBiase vs Jim Duggan
Hulk Hogan vs Andre The Giant

I originally planned for a 15 man battle royal to kick the show off, instead of a 20 man:

Bad News Brown
George Steele
Harley Race
Hillbilly Jim
Koko B. Ware
Leaping Lanny Poffo
Junkyard Dog
Ron Bass
Sika
The Bolsheviks (Nikolai Volkoff and Boris Zhukov)
The Killer Bees (B. Brian Blair and Jim Brunzell)
The Young Stallions (Paul Roma and Jim Powers)

If you want 20, add the following 5:

Outback Jack
The Conquistadors
Sam Houston
Danny Davis

I have three "new matches" that I liked from The Brain's card:

Bravo/Patera
Reed & Gang/Muraco & Bam Bam
The Hart Foundation/The Rougeau Brothers

With a 15 man battle royal, I make the Hart/Rougeau match a 6 man, adding Danny Davis to the Harts and Sam Houston to the Rougeaus. Perhaps Davis costs them the match, leading to the Harts face turn. Could even plan the seeds for the Rougeaus aligning with Jimmy Hart, as they would later in the summer.

These matches stay the same:

Warrior/Hercules
Beefcake/Honky
Demolition/Strike Force

A slight change to the six man match:

Islanders & Heenan vs Bulldogs & Snake

I really didn't like Koko with the Bulldogs. Just a personal thing. If Jake The snake wasn't in the Tournament, I have him with in the Bulldogs match, moving Koko to the Battle Royal. Not too long after WrestleMania, Jake would go on to feud with Rick Rude, who was managed by Heenan, so maybe something there to make Jake want to be in the match against Heenan.

This means 14 matches, where the original card had 16 matches... This gives some extra time for some of the other matches to expand a bit and keep the show at it's original length.

Personally, I would have added one more match, The Jumping Bomb Angels vs The Glamour Girls for the Women's Tag Titles. A rematch from the Royal Rumble. The Glamour Girls won the belts back in June of 88, so they could have either won here, or the Angels could have retained, continuing the feud.

The order I would have had the matches and the winners:

Battle Royal: Bad News Brown wins, eliminating JYD last
Dino Bravo over Ken Patera
Jumping Bomb Angels over Glamour Girls
Tournament Round 1: Steamboat, Savage and DiBiase advance
Rougeau Brothers (& Sam Houston) over Hart Foundation (& Danny Davis)
Warrior over Hercules
Brutus Beefcake over Honky Tonk by DQ
Tournament Round 2: Savage over Steamboat, DiBiase with a Bye
Muraco & Bam Bam over Reed & Gang
Islanders & Heenan over Bulldogs & Snake
Demolition over Strike Force
Tournament Finals: Savage over DiBiase

If you didn't want a face vs face tournament match, or feel that Steamboat was made to lose as "punishment," you could have Rude beat Steamboat, setting up Savage/Rude in round 2, or flip Rude and Valentine, have Valentine beat Steamboat in Rd.1, while having Savage beat Rude, if you feel Valentine would have been a better Rd. 2 opponent than Rude at the time.

DiBiase still gets his bye into the finals, making Savage's underdog run all the more impressive, while cutting a match from each of the finalists, giving them more time for the Final match. This also eliminates a lot of the guys who "didn't have a chance."

-Bill

 

[Headman]

Hogan losing the title at Wrestlemania would have been bad for business. The tournament was the best way to get the belt on someone new and it set up a match that people really wanted to see for the following year. It was also the first time they did a single night tournament on ppv, so it was something different. If they opted against the tournament it would have either been Hogan vs Andre II for the belt or Hogan vs Dibiase for the belt. Both would have been fine main events, but I happen to be a fan of the way things went down.

 

[EastCoastFan]

Brain had a really good card. The only thing is that if the WWF had gone that route, they would have had Savage vs. DiBiase earlier in the card and made Hogan vs. Andre II the closing match, as Hogan & Andre were MUCH bigger names than Savage and DiBiase.

Of course, they could have also gone with their original plans, which would have had Hogan vs. DiBiase and Savage challenging the Honky Tonk Man for the I-C title. As some of you know, the original plan for WM 4 was for DiBiase to win the tournament, with Savage defeating HTM to become I-C champ. HTM balked at losing the title (he was in negotiations to go to WCW and thought having the title gave him bargaining power), so they reworked the tournament so Savage would win to keep him happy.

 

[SWSTOKES]

WM4 I thought was a good concept. There were alot of filler matches but all WM in the early days had a ton of matches. It was nice back then that stories had long build ups and the whole hogan savage stuff from mania 4 to 5 was quality stuff

 

[ilapierre]

I always found Wrestlemania 4 very well executed. Looking back though, it's clear that some of the matches could have been better/longer. Perhaps only the best of the best should have participated with an opening round battle royal for the Dino Bravos and Butch Reeds. There seemed to be quite a bit of filler and pointless matches that took away from the competitive level of the tournament. This is who I'd have facing each other first round.

1 Hulk Hogan
8 Andre the Giant

Andre being 8th seed would seem fishy and winning by reverse decision DQ would lead fans to believe that Dibiase paid off the ref. Again.

2 Honky Tonk Man IC Champ
7 Ultimate Warrior

Warrior wins this non title match in less than a minute. He is ranked so low because he was fairly new. Two high card upsets.

3 Jake The Snake Roberts
6 Bad News Brown

Snake wins and is highest seed in conference 1

4 Don Muraco
5 One Man Gang

Gang wins and goes on to face Warrior.


1 Randy Savage
8 Bret Hart

Hitman takes Savage the distance in a classic first round match. Hart makes a face turn in one of his first big profile singles matches.

2 Ricky Steamboat
7 Greg Valentine

Steamboat beats Valentine and not the other way around.

3 Ted Dibiase
6 Hacksaw Jim Duggan

Dibiase makes quick work of Duggan.

4 Rick Rude
5 Brutus Beefcake

Rude beats Beefcake.

So in conference A, second round, Andre beats Jake Roberts. Warrior beats One Man Gang. In conference B, second round, Savage beats Rick Rude, Dibiase beats Steamboat. This way you have super face Savage vs super heel Dibiase in the semi final. If this happened today instead, the match to go with would definitely be Savage vs Steamboat 2. This time with Savage beating Steamboat as Steamboat was on his way out of the company. Andre would beat Warrior in the semi final after Warrior fails to slam Andre in conference B. Then you'd have the company's biggest heel, backed by Dibiase and all his money, against WWE's last chance to stop Andre: Savage. He'd have the Hogan fans behind him. This is the 'real' David vs Goliath match and the route WWE should have gone down. No one could think little Savage could beat Andre. He had a better chance against Hogan. Andre was way too big and nasty and barely anyone besides Hogan had beat Andre. This is how Savage gets super over. Could you imagine how big the moment would be if it was Andre Savage hit with that flying elbow. Savage would have definitely given Andre the match of his life. Savage would wrestle absolute classics with Hart, Rude and Steamboat (or Dibiase) leading up to this. Although it wouldn't be a wrestling clinic, Savage could sell it so well and Andre was the most over heel pretty much ever. This would have built Savage up 'big' enough to be on Hogan's level. And Savage deserved it. Andre's career was ending and he ended up throwing a series of matches in under a minute to the Warrior all over the country a little more than a year later. This was a way Andre could have passed the torch as Hogan was nowhere near ready to let anyone beat him cleanly yet.

Anyway this is what would have made WM4 more entertaining for me. I was a huge Savage mark and it was this WM that hooked me as a wrestling fan forever. As over as Dibiase was as a heel, I always thought it should have been Andre in the main event instead. He would have made that final match that much bigger and special.

 

[FlairFan2003]

Looking back, I think everyone watching (I know I did) totally saw this as a way to promote a couple of top tier guys in important matches but ultimatley put the belt back on Hogan, either going over Andre or DiBiase to do it. Of course, without the Internet leaking top secret behind the scenes info like Hogan wanting time off TV I has no idea Hulk wanted out for awhile, necessistating a new champ being crowned. McMahon wasnt ready to end Hulk's undefeated streak, at least via clean pinfall (he'd lost matches via Count-Out & DQ before, Andre's victory on the NBC Prime Time Special was a complete screw job) so the tournament was created as a way to get Hogan out of the title picture and crown a new champ but crown him in dominating, impressive fashion without going over Hogan. They did a similair thing in 1992 when they were toying with the idea of Hogan-Flair by having Flair win the title in The Royal Rumble, wrestling over an hour, basically beating the whole company, but not pinning Hogan in the middle of the ring, about as impressive a win as he could get without cleanly taking out Hogan in mid ring, leaving some mystique if they did face off (a variety reasons, including Hogan's implication in the growing Federal Steroids Probe that nearly put Vince out of business, conspired to keep that match from happening at the time).

Was the tournament needed ? Id say yes - Otherwise you would have to explain how the top two contenders were achieved for the final match without Hogan being involved. This way you have Hogan on the show, pumping up event interest, and you have a way to protect him from a loss and still crown a new champ in impressive fashion. Savage's win was a landmark event in the company, and his career obviously, the ultimate reward for his hard work and dedication (and how often he made Hogan, Steamboat, and others look good). Hogan didnt really lose steam over it though, the unclear finish with Andre explained his elimination in believable fashion (unlike the twin refs scenario used to explain his earlier pinfall loss to Andre, one of the more creative but utterly ridiculous endings of all time) and did not hurt him or damage Savage's credibility as champ.

 

[lil bitch Kid]

Was the tournament needed? Yes, they vacated the championship and needed to crown a champ. The bigger reason was : It hadn't been done yet.
Mania 1 was what it was. It seemed to be less about the matches and what they meant and more about the event.
Mania 2 had some build up to some matches, which was good. The 3 venues was hokey, and did nothing for the event.
Mania 3 was the biggest event indoors to date in the US. Whether the number was legit or not, who cares. Look at that event and tell me that wasn't the spectacle to end all spectacles at that time. Most of the matches had some background to them which was great.
Mania 4: What could they have done. They needed something unique. Mania 5 in the same venue would be the first time we'd essentially have a year long build to a heel turn and match, so that would be its gimmick. Mania 4 needed something that hadn't been done, and the tournament was it. Yes, the stars aligned: Hogan wanted time off, VKM needed to elevate a couple of guys and Savage and Dibiase got that rub. It was a good thing. I do, however, think they missed a few chances. Namely:
- The second round should have had Savage vs Steamboat II
-I don't mind Hogan coming out in the end, but I have an issue with him hitting ted with the chair.
- I don't think that Rude and Jake should have gone 15. It would have been fine for Jake to go over and then have Rude cost him the match against Gang after.
- In that same vain, there were far too many byes.
-The biggest issue was that they gave away Savage as the champ in the WWF magazine 2 months before and didn't make a change.

In terms of the rest of the card, it was good filler. warrior gets his first PPV match and win in an actual feud. Beefcake and Honky was what you'd expect: Honky keeps the belt and Jimmy gets the haircut. The six man was a rinse and repeat from the year before just with 4 guys being different. The battle royal served the purpose of getting Bret's face turn started. Demolition got the tag straps, which they should have.

 

[King Patrick Star]

I like WrestleMania IV, but I do agree that the Tournament was not needed. It was great, but not needed.

If I may, here is my revision of the WM IV card without the tournament.

• 20 Man Battle Royal (Stays the same)
Bad New Brown, Bret The Hitman Hart, Boris Zhukov, Brian Blair, Danny Davis, George The Animal Steele, Harley Race, Hillbilly Jim, Jacques Rougeau, Jumping Jim Brunzell, Jim The Anvil Neidhart, Jim Powers, Junkyard Dog, Ken Patera, Nikolai Volkoff, Paul Roma, Raymond Rougeau, Ron Bass, Sam Houston, and Sika.

• Singles match (I’m just putting Macho Man’s and Million Dollar Man’s first round opponents together for a match)
Hacksaw Jim Duggan vs. The Natural, Butch Reed (with Slick)

• Singles match (stays the same as the actual first round match that took place)
Don Muraco (with SuperStar Billy Graham) vs. Dino Bravo (with Frenchy Martin)

• Singles match (stays the same as the actual first round match that took place)
Greg The Hammer Valentine (with Jimmy Hart) vs. Ricky The Dragon Steamboat (with Little Dragon)

• Singles match (stays the same as the actual first round match that took place)
One Man Gang (with Slick) vs. Bam Bam Bigelow (with Oliver Humperdink)

• Singles match (stays the same as the actual first round match that took place)
Jake The Snake Roberts vs. Ravishing Rick Rude (with Bobby The Brain Heenan)

• Singles match (stays the same)
The Ultimate Warrior vs. Hercules (with Bobby The Brain Heenan)

• Six Man Tag Team match (stays the same)
The Islanders (Haku and Tama) and Bobby The Brain Heenan vs. The British Bulldogs (Davey Boy Smith and The Dynamite Kid) and Koko B. Ware

• Singles match (stays the same as the actual quarter-final match that took place)
Hulk Hogan vs. Andre The Giant (with Ted DiBiase and Virgil)

• WWF Tag Team Championship match (stays the same)
WWF Tag Team Champions, Strike Force vs. Demolition (with Mr. Fuji)

• WWF Intercontinental Championship match (stays the same)
WWF Intercontinental Champion, The Honky Tonk Man (with Jimmy Hart and Peggy Sue) vs. Brutus The Barber Beefcake

• WWF Championship match (Let’s say Jack Tunney didn’t strip the Million Dollar Man of the WWF Championship)
WWF Champion, The Million Dollar Man, Ted DiBiase (with Virgil and Andre The Giant) vs. Macho Man, Randy Savage (with Elizabeth and Hulk Hogan)

By making the card 12 matches instead of 16, this could give more time to the Championship matches. They could even give more time to the One Man Gang vs. Bam Bam Bigelow match as well. Regardless of what took place and how I have my card set up, I think I’d keep all the results the same. The only match that didn’t take place would be the Duggan vs. Reed match, in which case, I would have had Duggan for the win. USA!! USA!! USA!!

 

[Big Nick Dudley]

The first time I watched it, I loved it. I knew the guys involved, wasn't sure who would win (this was 1989 or 1990), etc. It was exciting. I'm willing to bet those who watched it live felt the same.

When you watch it more than once, yes, it's boring. But what tournament isn't? Would you rewatch last year's Sweet Sixteen through National Title game? No. I don't believe the event was boring, at least not the first time through.

Then again, they did have a lot of jobbers and several unnecessary matches... looking back. That's the key.

The tournament is a fantastic idea (one I hope they go with again at some point), but I'm sure if they did it today, there would be less filler.