Did The Horsemen Stay Too Long

[TUFFY54]

A lot of people point out that the biggest problem with the NWO was that it was around way too long and got watered down. While that is certainly the truth, I think their is another group that is guilty of the same thing. The Four Horseman changed pro wrestling. They were the first super dominate stable and people loved them. They started with Flair, Arn, Tully, and Ole with JJ Dillion as the manager. Ole never really fit the team and was soon replaced with Lex Luger. Luger also wasn't cut out to be a Horseman and got replaced with Barry Windham. Windham was a great fit for the group and they were perfect. Flair himself says that those four were the greatest Horsemen ever. Arn and Tully left soon after and the group was never the same. The Horseman stayed around WCW for another 10 years until 1998 when the final group was Flair, Mongo (who was God awful), Benoit, Malenko, and Arn as manager. I'm not totally sure, but I don't think this group was even around for a month. Along the way they had a tons of terrible wrestlers like Paul Roma, Sid, Jeff Jarrett, Curt Henning (Henning was great, but his time with the Horseman was predictable and lame), and Mongo. The only time in the 90's the Horseman had any steam was in early 96 with Flair, Arn, Benoit, and Pillman. However, WCW insisted on making the terrible Dungeon of Doom the top stable instead of them.

So what do you think? Should the Horsemen of ever reformed in the 90's, or should they have just let their legacy from the 80's speak for itself.

Personally, I think that one reunion could have worked. After Flair and Arn got laid out by the NWO, I would have waited a good year and have them just show up one night ready for war. Flair, Arn as manager, Benoit, and two other guys. (Certainly not Mongo) This would have given the fans something new and fresh instead of the NWO, and it would have given the Horsemen a chance to shine one more time.

 

[Rasha]

Along the way they had a tons of terrible wrestlers like Paul Roma, Sid, Jeff Jarrett, Curt Henning (Henning was great, but his time with the Horseman was predictable and lame), and Mongo.

If you're going to call Jarrett a "terrible" wrestler then to hell with your opinion. The guy may not be legendary but he's pretty damn good and has made a bigger impact on wrestling history than a lot more "gifted" guys. He's certainly better than guys like Roma and Mongo and for you to lump him, Hennig, and even Sid in with those guys is pretty ignorant.

Personally, I think that one reunion could have worked. After Flair and Arn got laid out by the NWO, I would have waited a good year and have them just show up one night ready for war. Flair, Arn as manager, Benoit, and two other guys. (Certainly not Mongo) This would have given the fans something new and fresh instead of the NWO, and it would have given the Horsemen a chance to shine one more time.

You're really workin' both sides of your mouth on this one. First you argue about how the Horsemen were around too long and watered down their legacy, but then you make a point about how WCW should have brought them back AGAIN even later. You've basically spent your whole post making one point only to completely go against it in the end. What the hell?

 

[TUFFY54]

If you're going to call Jarrett a "terrible" wrestler then to hell with your opinion. The guy may not be legendary but he's pretty damn good and has made a bigger impact on wrestling history than a lot more "gifted" guys. He's certainly better than guys like Roma and Mongo and for you to lump him, Hennig, and even Sid in with those guys is pretty ignorant.


You're really workin' both sides of your mouth on this one. First you argue about how the Horsemen were around too long and watered down their legacy, but then you make a point about how WCW should have brought them back AGAIN even later. You've basically spent your whole post making one point only to completely go against it in the end. What the hell?

Your the one thats pretty ignorant. In 1996 Jeff Jarrett was terrible. I like Jeff now, but he was a fool in a male stripper outfit doing a bad Ric Flair impersonation back when he was a Horseman. What exactly was Jeff Jarrett's impact on the history of wrestling in the mid 90's? The answer would be nothing, idiot. I already said Henning was a great wrestler, but his run with the Horseman was completely lame and you could see his heel turn comming from a mile away. He also was only in the group about two weeks. Ric Flair has said many times that Sid was terrible in the Horseman. He said he was shit in the ring and embarassing on the mic. He was only in the group because WCW was trying to push him.

No, I'm not working both sides of my mouth you fool. I said that I thought one proper reunion could have worked. That is a little different than saying I'm glade they had the ten years of shit line ups and feuds that they did. I'm sorry, I didn't realize you were such a fan of their legendary feud with the Dudes With Attitude in the early 90's. I know that when I think of the Four Horsemen, I think of Ole Anderson being handcuffed to El Giante so he can't cost the Junk Yard Dog a match.

I gave two scenario's. The first was how I would change something that happened. The second was how I would have personally booked it. I said that the 96 reunion Could have worked if they had booked it right. Then I said that Arn and Flair would get tired of being beaten down by the NWO, and bring the Four Horsemen back sometime in 97 when the NWO was stale. I never once said that they would have been Horsemen when the NWO beat them down. I was obviously implying that the original 96 reunion hadn't taken place. Try not to be so ignorant in your response next time.

 

[marklouis]

I don't know that they stayed too long, but they were definitely poorly booked. McMichael was horrible, there's no way he should've been in a wrestling ring. The worst part is, he was actually given a run as US Champion! All the legends that have held that title, & him. Looking back at the WCW roster from that time, I think a good candidate to join the Horsemen other than McMichael would've been William Regal (or Lord Steven Regal as he was called then). I think he fit the profile pretty well, and he certainly would've brought much more than McMichael in the ring. He also could have worked the mic when Flair or Anderson weren't around, something Benoit & Malenko didn't do very well. As for Malenko, he wasn't a bad addition. Either he or Benoit could've made an excellent tag team with Regal, or Benoit & Malenko could've teamed on their own. But yes, they should've come back in 1997 & been the major advisaries of the NWO. Hell, they could've even added Piper, since he feuded with Hogan around that time as well.

 

[reed214]

like great teams in all sports that tried to replace a crucial piece of the championship pie, it would end up coming up far short. the horsemen tried to find someone to come in and replace ole and later tully and arn, but it always wasnt up to them on the final word. (just like the horrible wrestling storylines today..someone else is in charge). now like flair said, the best possible situation is **if** by magic i suppose they could have put in benoit after Ole left then the group would have stayed on top and meaningful and the best for the group. the nwo (or bischoff and hogan) destroyed the horsemen b/c time and time again Hogan proves he can destroy companies and good ideas. in the end it was brilliantly done in the 80's and to bring in losers like JJ (my opinion must not matter b/c jeff jarrett is *absolute garbage* and did his flair impression with a horrible horrible flair strut as someone already said) and with hogan and bischoff, the horsemen didnt have a chance in the 90's.

 

[DeathClutch]

I didn't follow NWA/WCW when the Horseman was around so I can't comment on if stayed longer then should with a great arguement as to why, but from what I've read and seen the Horseman should of ceased in the late 80s once Arn and Tully joined WWF irrespective of Ole leaving you can always replace someone one time only, after that it's just someone keeping the name around with a new crop of guys (remember DX in 1999, when none of the members wanted it expect Pac & Road dogg, that was storyline but Horseman was real) once more then one leaves a group it's not a group.

Take the Legion of doom, once Hawk died and Animal and Jon Hidenrich joined up it was just a former member trying to keep a concept alive that was DEAD and same forumla with a faction once more then one leaves the group becomes a new team but with the same name and case in point with Horseman.
Once Ole left had Horseman got Benoit it would of been a perfect fit and Flair was right, but that is the beauty of the business it keeps changing and Benoit got his chance.

I'm not a fan of re-hashing storylines teams, but a Horseman team with Flair (as leader) Benoit, Pillman and Malenko (I believe??) now that is THEE best Horseman team that rivals the Original one, totally watered down but concept wise each wrestler brought something different to the table kind of like the concept the original team had.

 

[mr2damngood73]

No the real last set of Horseman did not stay around to long Ric, Barry, Arn, Tully & JJ hands down the best and anyone who thinks different is nuts

 

[It's...Baylariat!]

The Horsemen was a NAME... not the wrestlers. At first, it was the wrestlers. Flair, the Andersons and Blanchard WERE the Four Horsemen. Eventually, the faction became a name. It became a way to get over a young star or to be a formidable foe for a major character (Sting, Hogan, Rhodes)...

Did it stay around too long? No. If done right, it could matter. That says a lot. The NWO would be irrelevant today. DX might work, because not many people were in DX. The Horsemen had it's weak links... but it's legacy will be remembered more for it's glory days than the days of having a dude named 'Mongo' as a member and being a US Champion.

The Horsemen, in no shape or form, didn't stay around too long. And never will.

 

[ilapierre]

Although i do respect and agree with most of Tuffy's arguments, this time he's in fact working both sides of his mouth. The Four Horsemen and the NWO did not overstay their welcome no matter what a bunch of whiny losers in the IWC say and repeat over and over and OVER again as if its consensus proof since all the loud mouth idiots won't stop repeating it. These were the two biggest stables of all time. Who gives a shit if people or groups stay past their prime. Maybe WWE should fade away because its past its prime and we should let TNA be the only wrestling company. I mean what kind of logic is that and what kind of logic dictates that wrestlers or groups have to disappear after a few years before they grow old and stale. I don't think anyone would have wanted Babe Ruth to disappear from baseball, Gordie Howe to leave hockey, or Larry Bird to quit basketball. The NWO and Four Horsemen aren't some lame ass Nexus group or Nation of Domination. They are foundations for companies, they are successful angles, they are entities upon themselves. Getting rid of either is like getting rid of history, it's like erasing WWE's past and starting over again. It's a shame, we should be celebrating wrestling history by allowing wrestling to make sense..cause Flair without the Horsemen doesn't make a whole lot of sense and Hogan without the NWO just isn't the same. The NWO and Four Horsemen are institutions that should be around today to make wrestling make sense, they should not be wiped out like all remnants of history so that wrestling can continue being this stale ass meaningless product it is today. It'd be like saying, let's destroy DX or the Hart Foundation. From now on, there must be no mention that Triple H and Shawn Michaels like each other and from now on no mention that Hitman has anything to do with any members of his family. It's ******ed, all this bullcrap i read on this site about the Horsemen or NWO lasting too long.

The Four Horsemen of the 90s was great, far from washed up, and there needed to be a supergroup to combat the NWO (they were the closest to any wrestler or group to end the NWO). Being a horseman made Malenko and Benoit. No one woulda given two shits about the Andersons in the 90s had there not been this stable. Evolution should have been named the Four Horsemen, that's essentially what they were and the name Evolution is about on par as being the stupidest name for a stable after Fortune and Immortal.

 

[TUFFY54]

Although i do respect and agree with most of Tuffy's arguments, this time he's in fact working both sides of his mouth. The Four Horsemen and the NWO did not overstay their welcome no matter what a bunch of whiny losers in the IWC say and repeat over and over and OVER again as if its consensus proof since all the loud mouth idiots won't stop repeating it. These were the two biggest stables of all time. Who gives a shit if people or groups stay past their prime. Maybe WWE should fade away because its past its prime and we should let TNA be the only wrestling company. I mean what kind of logic is that and what kind of logic dictates that wrestlers or groups have to disappear after a few years before they grow old and stale. I don't think anyone would have wanted Babe Ruth to disappear from baseball, Gordie Howe to leave hockey, or Larry Bird to quit basketball. The NWO and Four Horsemen aren't some lame ass Nexus group or Nation of Domination. They are foundations for companies, they are successful angles, they are entities upon themselves. Getting rid of either is like getting rid of history, it's like erasing WWE's past and starting over again. It's a shame, we should be celebrating wrestling history by allowing wrestling to make sense..cause Flair without the Horsemen doesn't make a whole lot of sense and Hogan without the NWO just isn't the same. The NWO and Four Horsemen are institutions that should be around today to make wrestling make sense, they should not be wiped out like all remnants of history so that wrestling can continue being this stale ass meaningless product it is today. It'd be like saying, let's destroy DX or the Hart Foundation. From now on, there must be no mention that Triple H and Shawn Michaels like each other and from now on no mention that Hitman has anything to do with any members of his family. It's ******ed, all this bullcrap i read on this site about the Horsemen or NWO lasting too long.

The Four Horsemen of the 90s was great, far from washed up, and there needed to be a supergroup to combat the NWO (they were the closest to any wrestler or group to end the NWO). Being a horseman made Malenko and Benoit. No one woulda given two shits about the Andersons in the 90s had there not been this stable. Evolution should have been named the Four Horsemen, that's essentially what they were and the name Evolution is about on par as being the stupidest name for a stable after Fortune and Immortal.

I think that there is a big difference between just getting rid of something because it has gone on for a while, and letting something continue to be watered down because it isn't being used properly. I didn't mean to say "I wish there had never been a Four Horseman group in the 90's". If the group had been done right, I never would have made this post at all. I'll stand by my claim that the 90-91 Horseman shouldn't have existed. It was a really crummy time for the group. However, if booked right, the mid 90's Horsemen would have kicked ass. If Flair had been world champ, Arn got the US title, and Benoit and Pillman were the tag champs it would have been great. We all know that isn't what happened. The original Horseman were about stylin, profilin, kicking ass, and taking names. The 90's Horsemen were lump together with the Dungeon of Doom and put into stupid feuds. Jarrett and Mongo feuded over Debra and Flair was humiliated week after week by the NWO. That was the problem. The original Horsemen always found a way to win. The 90's Horsemen did nothing but lose. It just didn't seem right. The only person that benifited from being a Horseman in that time was Benoit.

I think we are on the wrong page about mentioning the past. I would never want a company to not bring up the past with Flair and Anderson, or pretend that HHH and HBK weren't friends. As far as the NWO goes, I was the biggest NWO mark in the entire world. They are my favorite group of all time and I always wanted them to win. I rooted for Hogan to destroy Sting at Starrcade. However, it did go on to long. The NWO was an elite force. When they had 3, 5, 8, even 10 members they were amazing. At one point they had 25 to 30 roster members in their group. When you have 6 guys (Stevie Ray, Scott Norton, Vincent, Horace Hogan, Buff Bagwell, and Brian Adams) actually being called the NWO B Team by announcers, things have gone to far. Nash, Hogan, and Hall have all said the same thing in interviews.

In summery, I have no problem with a wrestling angle going on for years and years if it works. Hell Austin and Vince feuded for 5 straight years in the WWE and it was the best thing in the company every minute it was on. All I'm saying is that I personally think the Four Horsemen stopped working in the mid 90's. If it had worked, and they had actually be booked like the bad asses they were supposed to be, I would of had no problem with it whatsoever. Hell truth be told I really don't have a problem with it. What kind of guy would worry that much about something that happened 15 years ago in pro wrestling? HaHa

 

[Old_School]

its been 10yrs since I last visited this site and its been that long since i watched wrestling. I was glad to see that the first topic in the forum was about the horsemen so i had to join.