Did Kevin Nash deserve that much scorn in 1999?

[TEIWCSCSAATBHPHASP]

It's easy to sit and criticize Nash as a booker without looking at the circumstances that he had to book under. Nash had to book without the star power of various top stars for extended periods of time e.g. Lex Luger (torn bicep), Scott Hall (personal problems), Hollywood Hogan (knee surgery), Bret Hart (bereavement leave), Goldberg (knee surgery/movie commitment/contract dispute), Scott Steiner (back and shoulder injuries, ie: three ruptured disks). Nash was also handicapped by standards and practices e.g. they wouldn't allow sex or extreme violence which is why Nash claims he resorted to comedy with the Ric Flair mental asylum skits. Hogan's contract was so loaded with incentives as a worker it foiled Nash's plans to make him WCW President and don't forget that Hogan had creative control.

I have a feeling that Nash would've done absolutely well had Turner or Time Warner never implemented Standards and Practices against everyone. Or else WCW would've still continued to be neck-and-neck regardless of the product, and I think nWo was still good enough to be relevant during the Wolfpac v. Hollywood angle for most of 1998, and into 1999 the Wolfpac Elite.

And this whole Standards and Practices restrictions against Nash kind of further enforces my notion that Bischoff should've bought WCW from Ted Turner instead of Time Warner in 1998 during the ownership tradeoff.

 

[sikkbones]

When you can honestly say Kevin Sullivan was a better booker than Nash that's saying something....

I think one of the wwe books post the end of wcw, might have even been Hogan's spoke about the way that wcw was booked, and other than orndorff and dusty and flair, no one else that had the book had even drawn a dime in the buissnesd,

Nash was a borderline example of that even because he was only a drawbonce the outsiders returned to wcw and formed neo.

He did not draw as wwf champion.

 

[TEIWCSCSAATBHPHASP]

When you can honestly say Kevin Sullivan was a better booker than Nash that's saying something....

I think one of the wwe books post the end of wcw, might have even been Hogan's spoke about the way that wcw was booked, and other than orndorff and dusty and flair, no one else that had the book had even drawn a dime in the buissnesd,

Nash was a borderline example of that even because he was only a drawbonce the outsiders returned to wcw and formed neo.

He did not draw as wwf champion.

@sikkbones You gotta stop blaming Kevin Nash for everything wrong with WCW. Injuries to Lex Luger, Scott Hall, Hollywood Hogan, Bret Hart, Bill Goldberg and Scott Steiner caused the first domino of WCW's twilight years to happen.

And on top of all that, if you want to point the finger at a certain something or a certain somebody, you gotta blame Hogan for his creative control and his refusal to step aside in favor of everyone else (even Nash), and also you have to point the fingers at Time Warner's Standards & Practices TV rules and regulations that prevented Nash from wanting to book the show with sex and violence, a la WWF's Attitude Era. Fully doing the Attitude Era of their own terms would've helped benefit WCW very good exiting the 1990s and into the new millenium of the 2000s.

That's why Time Warner limited Nash to doing silly cartoonish PG skits like Ric Flair in a Mental Asylum angle, which featured a cameo from Scott Hall, who was probably a face at the time of this angle, and Kevin Sullivan was too old-school for the Attitude Era, plus the last time The Taskmaster was featured as a prominent figure in WCW was 1996, and he was last seen physically on WCW TV screens in 1997 anyways. Sorry, I have to admit that Sullivan was the reason why Benoit, Guerrero, Malenko and Saturn all bolted for the WWF in early 2000 though, not that I cared about The Radicalz anyways because I still don't care about them.

 

[ShinChan]

I don't like Kevin Nash for a single decision that is booking himself to end Goldberg's undefeated streak.

That's a big wrong decision in my opinion. The rub off Goldberg's undefeated streak was just wasted.

 

[ilapierre]

I don't like Kevin Nash for a single decision that is booking himself to end Goldberg's undefeated streak.

That's a big wrong decision in my opinion. The rub off Goldberg's undefeated streak was just wasted.

This is EXACTLY how I felt for about 15 years. However, a year or two ago I watched an interview where Kevin Nash said that he wasn't the head booker when he beat the streak. And more importantly, Nash did not want to be the one to end the streak but was told that Goldberg's streak had to end in order for the planned NWO reformation at the Georgia Dome 8 days later. In October of 98, Hogan announced a two month hiatus (to supposedly run for President) after Halloween Havoc. That kicked off a 2 month conspiracy angle. Scott Steiner took over the Black and White NWO the following week and 'kicked' Hogan out of the group. Setting up what some thought was going to be a 'face' Hogan upon his return. For 2 months not a single thing concerning the NWO made any sense and ratings plummeted. Scott Hall feuding drunk with Kevin Nash made little sense and didn't 'feel' real. Neither did the Black and White fighting with the Wolfpack. I really felt like tuning out altogether because it felt like wrestlers had low morale and the storyline had run its course. Many other fans felt the same way. But, after the FPOD in Atlanta, the lack of feeling in the feud all made sense. It was a NWO conspiracy on the viewer and it was fantastic for those of us intelligent enough to see it. Storylinewise, the NWO had 'made up' behind the scenes just after Halloween Havoc. But had to put on a 'charade' until Starrcade and Hogan's return in order to regain the belt. So the two sides fought in a lackluster manner so, after the fact, we'd connect the dots and everything would all make sense again. Unfortunately, most wrestling fans are thick between the ears and to this day still can't wrap their mind around the incredible swerve.

So, back to the topic, Kevin Nash HAD to make this 2 month swerve angle make sense. He was forced to do so by Hogan and Bischoff. And, according to Nash in the interview, he believed the Georgia Dome swerve was going to be pulled off in such a way that WCW could possibly regain their position atop the television ratings. The FPOD was their 'Hail Mary' but it failed because it was too advanced an angle to be understood by an audience of channel flippers who during the Attitude Era developed a short attention span. And, in all fairness, the entire angle was really confusing to everyone including the wrestlers which made it hard for them to pull off.

 

[relentless1]

It was set up rather nicely, evidence of this is Steiner trying to recruit Lex Luger in late November to the Black n White.

 

[THTRobtaylor]

Blaming Nash for WCW booking being its demise is plain wrong. Blame whoever put him in that position to begin with.

Nash did have close working experience with Vince from his time in WWE, but for him to be a "booker" seemed more an appeasement to keep him "too sweet" than a seriously plan. Hogan had all the aces contractually and Nash was the one in demand from Vince... WCW offered him the book as a way to stop him going back "home" and he saw it as a legit chance to widen his experience and skills.

Yes there were injuries and issues but contracts were the biggest, the moment a man can say "that doesn't work for me brother" and there is no further discussion, then you're screwed as a company.

Many slate Nash for taking the streak... someone HAD to, just as someone had to take Undertaker's. It was becoming an albatross round the neck of Goldberg and the only guy with the size, legit clout to take it WAS Nash... of course the fingerpoke of doom was a Hogan power play and disgusting, but ultimately something HAD to happen.

Put it the other way, had Nash not been leaving WWE in 1996, then he would have beaten Taker at Mania 12... had he returned in 99 he'd have certainly beaten him them. Would you be calling him for it? if he made it a condition of coming back he got that win back? Would Taker have had an issue? fuck no...and the streak wouldn't have been a thing.

Saying Nash made bad calls predicates on the calls made before being good... too many of them weren't so he was pretty well screwed to begin with.

 

[sikkbones]

Surprisingly, the masterpieces like booking him to break Goldberg's streak only to lose the title eight days later to Hogan via the Fingerpoke of Doom were from immediately before he was made booker (which, given the stuff he has admitted to do with a straight face, says something).

 

[johnbragg]

But, after the FPOD in Atlanta, the lack of feeling in the feud all made sense. It was a NWO conspiracy on the viewer and it was fantastic for those of us intelligent enough to see it.

Point the First: Did WCW ever say on TV that this was what happened? Or is this your awesome fan theory as to why something that made no sense actually did make sense? (I was a very casual viewer at this point. I was a substitute elementary school teacher, and the second grade boys were calling me Kane, and I wanted to make sure that KAne wasn't Goldust or Billy-and-Chuck.)

I'm not throwing shade on your theory, if it's your theory. I applaud you, in fact, for making more sense than I remember WCW making at the time.

Storylinewise, the NWO had 'made up' behind the scenes just after Halloween Havoc. But had to put on a 'charade' until Starrcade and Hogan's return in order to regain the belt. So the two sides fought in a lackluster manner so, after the fact, we'd connect the dots and everything would all make sense again. Unfortunately, most wrestling fans are thick between the ears and to this day still can't wrap their mind around the incredible swerve.

Again, did WCW ever say this was what had been going on? Is this canon, or fan theory? (IT's an excellent fan theory, to be sure.)

Point the SEcond, OK so the NWO sure got one over on we the viewers. Unfortunately, the viewers got their heat back by chokeslamming WCW ratings and PPV buys into the basement.

So, back to the topic, Kevin Nash HAD to make this 2 month swerve angle make sense. He was forced to do so by Hogan and Bischoff. And, according to Nash in the interview, he believed the Georgia Dome swerve was going to be pulled off in such a way that WCW could possibly regain their position atop the television ratings. The FPOD was their 'Hail Mary' but it failed because it was too advanced an angle to be understood by an audience of channel flippers who during the Attitude Era developed a short attention span. And, in all fairness, the entire angle was really confusing to everyone including the wrestlers which made it hard for them to pull off.

If something is really confusing to everyone, maybe it's not great storytelling--maybe it's just really confusing and doesn't make sense.

I remember catching the Fingerpoke of Doom and thinking, yeah, okay, they're bad guys. They put one over on the audience. But then days and weeks later thinking, but what did Kevin NAsh get out of it? He gave Hogan the world title and he sure fooled me, but why?

Did WCW ever give a reason for Big Sexy Kevin NAsh to hand Hogan the biggest prize in WCW, or was it just for teh evulz?

(A week or month or two ago, I read somebody's fan theory explanation that Big Sexy was all about getting paid, and would get more money out of merchandise sales from an NWO reunion than he would from a title run. That makes total sense, but I don't know if that's WCW canon.)

 

[Kodo Sawaki]

Only Kevin Nash is saying that he didnt booked that Goldberg lose to him. All others involved said that it was all Nash decision there. You can watch "Rise and Fall of WCW" to see that. So yeah, he did deserve a lot of blame for killing WCW hottest act at that point. Granted company would probably go down without him but there is no doubt that he speeded that up with some of his calls.

 

[Garak]

Only Kevin Nash is saying that he didnt booked that Goldberg lose to him. All others involved said that it was all Nash decision there.

This is the entire problem. No one involved can be believed about much of anything.

 

[ilapierre]

Point the First: Did WCW ever say on TV that this was what happened? Or is this your awesome fan theory as to why something that made no sense actually did make sense? (I was a very casual viewer at this point. I was a substitute elementary school teacher, and the second grade boys were calling me Kane, and I wanted to make sure that KAne wasn't Goldust or Billy-and-Chuck.)

I'm not throwing shade on your theory, if it's your theory. I applaud you, in fact, for making more sense than I remember WCW making at the time.



Again, did WCW ever say this was what had been going on? Is this canon, or fan theory? (IT's an excellent fan theory, to be sure.)

Point the SEcond, OK so the NWO sure got one over on we the viewers. Unfortunately, the viewers got their heat back by chokeslamming WCW ratings and PPV buys into the basement.



If something is really confusing to everyone, maybe it's not great storytelling--maybe it's just really confusing and doesn't make sense.

I remember catching the Fingerpoke of Doom and thinking, yeah, okay, they're bad guys. They put one over on the audience. But then days and weeks later thinking, but what did Kevin NAsh get out of it? He gave Hogan the world title and he sure fooled me, but why?

Did WCW ever give a reason for Big Sexy Kevin NAsh to hand Hogan the biggest prize in WCW, or was it just for teh evulz?

(A week or month or two ago, I read somebody's fan theory explanation that Big Sexy was all about getting paid, and would get more money out of merchandise sales from an NWO reunion than he would from a title run. That makes total sense, but I don't know if that's WCW canon.)

The 2 month conspiracy angle wasn't addressed in a straightforward manner by anyone involved. But it was definitely alluded to by the announcers and Bischoff. I only pieced this 'theory' together after a few days of thought after the FPOD. Keep in mind, it was never really officially explained because the FPOD swerve was meant to be a conspiracy on WCW (and if it was ever admitted to then you'd have 2 months of duped wrestling fans wanting refunds!). Which means on air personalities like Tony Schiavone, Larry Zbyszko and whoever else all had to play surprised in the weeks following the swerve. In the days and weeks that followed, the 'swerve' on the fans/company was frequently mentioned by the announce team who kept trying to figure out the scam among themselves. Bischoff himself called the FPOD match as a commentator that evening and his gleeful commentary indicates a lengthy conspiracy. But, no, nobody came right out and officially said that the NWO teams battling a month earlier at World War 3 was all one big joke on the audience. But it being a lengthy 'deception' was definitely alluded to by Bischoff, Hall/Nash, Steiner, Zbyszko and Schiavone. As for us the fans, I believe it was left for us to work out for ourselves. And that why I believe the whole angle failed. Most of us didn't care or weren't paying much attention at that point.

As for what Nash got out of it all, my theory is he got to beat the streak and patch things up with Hogan. There was always that pecking order under Hogan always holding the others back.

 

[rmp0012002]

Nash's booking seemed rushed and always leaned toward the comedic side. I don't like workers also booking as it becomes an ego trip but TWC wanted a more family oriented product and that limited how storylines could be booked. It likely could have had the same outcome under other bookers if they had the same restraints.

 

[relentless1]

Point the First: Did WCW ever say on TV that this was what happened? Or is this your awesome fan theory as to why something that made no sense actually did make sense? (I was a very casual viewer at this point. I was a substitute elementary school teacher, and the second grade boys were calling me Kane, and I wanted to make sure that KAne wasn't Goldust or Billy-and-Chuck.)

I'm not throwing shade on your theory, if it's your theory. I applaud you, in fact, for making more sense than I remember WCW making at the time.



Again, did WCW ever say this was what had been going on? Is this canon, or fan theory? (IT's an excellent fan theory, to be sure.)

Point the SEcond, OK so the NWO sure got one over on we the viewers. Unfortunately, the viewers got their heat back by chokeslamming WCW ratings and PPV buys into the basement.



If something is really confusing to everyone, maybe it's not great storytelling--maybe it's just really confusing and doesn't make sense.

I remember catching the Fingerpoke of Doom and thinking, yeah, okay, they're bad guys. They put one over on the audience. But then days and weeks later thinking, but what did Kevin NAsh get out of it? He gave Hogan the world title and he sure fooled me, but why?

Did WCW ever give a reason for Big Sexy Kevin NAsh to hand Hogan the biggest prize in WCW, or was it just for teh evulz?

(A week or month or two ago, I read somebody's fan theory explanation that Big Sexy was all about getting paid, and would get more money out of merchandise sales from an NWO reunion than he would from a title run. That makes total sense, but I don't know if that's WCW canon.)

As I said earlier, Steiner was trying to recruit Luger to nWo Hollywood over a month before the Fingerpoke so yeah, there is evidence that the whole thing was planned

 

[johnbragg]

The 2 month conspiracy angle wasn't addressed in a straightforward manner by anyone involved. But it was definitely alluded to by the announcers and Bischoff. I only pieced this 'theory' together after a few days of thought after the FPOD.

So it's a fan theory, not canon.

Keep in mind, it was never really officially explained because the FPOD swerve was meant to be a conspiracy on WCW (and if it was ever admitted to then you'd have 2 months of duped wrestling fans wanting refunds!). Which means on air personalities like Tony Schiavone, Larry Zbyszko and whoever else all had to play surprised in the weeks following the swerve.

Schiavone and Zbyszko weren't NWO, so they *were* surprised, right? (In kayfabe at least.)

In the days and weeks that followed, the 'swerve' on the fans/company was frequently mentioned by the announce team who kept trying to figure out the scam among themselves.

They were trying to figure out why Nash aligned with Hogan and handed him the title?

Bischoff himself called the FPOD match as a commentator that evening and his gleeful commentary indicates a lengthy conspiracy.

Does it indicate a lengthy conspiracy, or that the group he led was getting the band back together?

But, no, nobody came right out and officially said that the NWO teams battling a month earlier at World War 3 was all one big joke on the audience. But it being a lengthy 'deception' was definitely alluded to by Bischoff, Hall/Nash, Steiner, Zbyszko and Schiavone. As for us the fans, I believe it was left for us to work out for ourselves.

That usually means the writers hope you don't think about it too hard because they don't have a real answer.

And that why I believe the whole angle failed. Most of us didn't care or weren't paying much attention at that point.

Generally, when you're running a mystery angle, you eventually reveal the answer to your mystery on TV. If you don't, it's because you didn't have an answer. (Lost).

As for what Nash got out of it all, my theory is he got to beat the streak and patch things up with Hogan. There was always that pecking order under Hogan always holding the others back.

He got to beat Goldberg's streak, which he got Hall's help with. Hall was NAsh's Outsiders buddy, but he was also NWO Hollywood. So Hall delivers the title to Nash, and in return Nash hands it to Hogan? Not much in it for Nash.

As fans, we know that Hogan had creative control and was "keeping his spot". But in kayfabe, Big Sexy Kevin Nash doesn't know that. In kayfabe, Nash could kick Hogan's ass and stay World champion.