Did Hogan need a heel turn?

[Ubermensch]

Most people talk about how big of a heel turn Hogan made, and several documentaries show Hogan as reluctant at first to make the heel turn at Bash at the Beach.

I have always been under the impression that WCW throughout the 80s and most of the 90s had a different fan base than the WWF, despite the two wanting to go head to head with one another. There were definite overlap in the areas that the two promotions did shows at, but for the most part WCW was the southern promotion or "wrasslin" characterized with more sense of kayfabe realism than what the WWF put out. Going back to the 80s when the Horsemen jumped Rhodes at a gas station and broke his hand this was on a different level than what the WWF was putting out at the time. Of course both promotions got more cartoonish as slumped around the 1995 mark with the Dungeon of Doom.

I think Hogan needed the heel turn to stay viable. He was brought into WCW and instantly made the face of the company. However, when I look at his match with Flair for the title, the crowd's reaction was never as loud as he got in the WWF, and that persisted throughout his real American gimmick in WCW. For whatever reason, be it the southern audience, or fans in general growing tired of his gimmick, it never seemed like face Hogan caught much steam.

Hogan would run out of steam as a face, but as a heel he revived his career.

Of course the times were changing as well. When I look back at the wrestlers I considered larger than life super heroes for their time I think of Sting, Hogan, Macho Man, and Warrior. Besides the Warrior's inconsistencies and unprofessionalism, I think one of the reasons The Warrior flopped in WCW was because came off no different as he looked in 1991 whereas his contemporaries had adopted (and gone black).

 

[Attitude_Era_Guy]

Yes, Hulk Hogan really needed a heel turn. His American Hero gimmick was stale and a thing of the past and needed some freshness. Hence justifying his heel turn.

 

[pipebomber]

well... "need" implies a lot. Truth is, he was Hulk Hogan. He "needed" nothing to stay relevant. He was, and arguably still is, the biggest name this business has ever seen. John Cena proves how relevant Hogan could have stayed had he never turned heel. Cena might not be popular, but I'll be damned if he ain't relevant. It did thrust him back into the spotlight, and make him more relevant again, but he would have stayed relevant and a main eventer until his retirement.

I think WCW needed it. It was what brought them enough attention to finally take the lead in the ratings over the WWF.

 

[relentless1]

Oh God yes Hulk need that change, he needed to evolve with the times, thats how good characterization works, look at the Undertaker for proof on that.

 

[whoopin' ass]

pipebomber, I have to disagree. Look at Hogan at that time - the fans were not really into him. Even now, he always gets a pop whenever he returns but after he is around for a while, fans start to tire of him. That's what happened in WCW and it wasn't getting better. Something needed to change and it needed to be big. They tried the semi-heel approach where he was still the good guy but was wearing black and it just came off as lame. I think he needed to turn or he probably would have left WCW. They say Sting was a choice if Hogan decided not to turn but I think had Hogan not turned, the nWo would have flopped because you would have Hogan as your main face against them and at that time, there was no way he was going to lose and look bad enough to get them over. The angle probably would have ran a few months, maybe Sting got the title and in the end Hogan beats him for it and end of angle. Then they are back to where they were before it. Hogan needed the change.

 

[pipebomber]

pipebomber, I have to disagree. Look at Hogan at that time - the fans were not really into him. Even now, he always gets a pop whenever he returns but after he is around for a while, fans start to tire of him. That's what happened in WCW and it wasn't getting better. Something needed to change and it needed to be big. They tried the semi-heel approach where he was still the good guy but was wearing black and it just came off as lame. I think he needed to turn or he probably would have left WCW. They say Sting was a choice if Hogan decided not to turn but I think had Hogan not turned, the nWo would have flopped because you would have Hogan as your main face against them and at that time, there was no way he was going to lose and look bad enough to get them over. The angle probably would have ran a few months, maybe Sting got the title and in the end Hogan beats him for it and end of angle. Then they are back to where they were before it. Hogan needed the change.

You don't seem to get what I said. I don't see anywhere in your post that shows he needed it. I see where you explain why the nWo needs it. I also see where you say WCW needed it. I just don't see how him not turning would have negatively affected him. I do see how turning benefited him, but I don't think staying face would have hurt him.

Your scenario is very similar to John Cena vs The Nexus. I agree if Hogan would have never turned that the nWo would have fizzled out and not been near as successful. The nWo needed a Hogan turn. WCW needed a Hogan turn. Hulk Hogan did not need a Hogan turn. It didn't hurt Hogan. I even agree that it helped Hogan. But Hulk Hogan didn't need it. He still would have been the biggest face in the industry. Even without the nWo he would have ALWAYS had a place in the business. He might have even decided to hang up his boots at a younger age because he might have gotten bored with the same old song and dance. But he didn't need it.

John Cena today and Hulk Hogan then are very VERY similar. People have been saying for years and years and years that John Cena needs to turn heel. He hasn't yet, but he has stayed relevant. Why? Because he is viewed as the biggest name in the industry today. Face or Heel, Exciting or Stale, he has stayed relevant. Hulk Hogan would have also stayed relevant.

Hogan then, like John Cena today, had risen to a point where he would always be relevant as long as the powers that be want him to be relevant. He had proven that he wasn't just a flavor of the month. he was the biggest name in wrestling for the past Decade.

If John Cena doesn't turn heel do you think he wont stay relevant? because comparatively, it's the same situation.

 

[lowandmighty]

Hogan did need to turn heel. He did bring big attendance numbers to WCW as the Hulkster who was American made, and the crowds were bigger for WCW's shows than they ever were in the past.

However, it seemed like they were there to see Hogan be beaten rather than win. I mean yes you had the kids in the red and yellow shirts but most of the fat guys with the missing teeth were booing him and those fat guys made up the majority of WCW fans.

Hogan had been gone for a bit when he returned at bash at the beach and he got a huge pop, not because people were glad to see Hogan but because they thought he was going to help Sting - their hero.

Turning Hogan heel fed right into the slobbery the mouths of WCW fans.

 

[Ubermensch]

I see many of your points that Hogan would have been relevant without a heel turn. However, I feel like the Hollywood turn inject a few more years into him being the face of the company.

I think in many ways Bischoff saw that he may a sizable investment with Hogan, and Savage to a lesser extent. I am sure that even Luger had a heavy price tag on him.

WCW in 1995 and early 96 much like WWF in 1992. Flair and Macho were running angles with Flair stealing Elizabeth. The WCW brought in Renegade in a poor attempt to capitalize on the mystery of the Ultimate Warrior and teamed him with the Hogan and Savage to face the cartoonish Dungeon of Doom. Hogan was "American Made" which was exactly the same as his "Real American" gimmick. You had a Giant. WCW was very face heavy with those same larger than life super hero gimmick wrestlers like Sting, Hogan, Savage, and their attempt at making Renegade the Ultimate Warrior. The only mentionable heel was Flair. The Horsemen made an interesting heel group against Hogan but the Dungeon was absurd.

I think Bischoff had to create a different dichotomy for the storylines and protect his investment in all that main event talent.

 

[Catacomb]

the fans were starting to turn on hogan in 1992, by 1996 hogan needed the turn to revitalize his career. if you were watching wrestling at the time youd agree. once hogan turned heel and nwo took off the rest is history and to say in hindsight that the turn wasnt needed is asinine

 

[Ubermensch]

Agreed Catacomb. Hogan needed the heel turn, rather WCW needed Hogan to turn heel is up for more debate. I think he needed to begin to take a backseat 1996 while still remaining relevant.

 

[CrucifiedRaven]

Agreed Catacomb. Hogan needed the heel turn, rather WCW needed Hogan to turn heel is up for more debate. I think he needed to begin to take a backseat 1996 while still remaining relevant.

I actually agree with pipebomber, and you guys seem to be missing his point.

Hogan turning heel certainly benefited everybody. WCW, nWo, and Hogan himself. It was the right call. All pipebomber is saying is that if he didn't turn, he would still have been a main event player getting 50/50 reactions the way Cena is now. That said, even Hogan realized he wasn't getting any more popular, so he agreed to it. And the heel turn did revitalize him. It was the best move for him and sparked another boom period in wrestling, in a big way.

 

[pipebomber]

I actually agree with pipebomber, and you guys seem to be missing his point.

Hogan turning heel certainly benefited everybody. WCW, nWo, and Hogan himself. It was the right call. All pipebomber is saying is that if he didn't turn, he would still have been a main event player getting 50/50 reactions the way Cena is now. That said, even Hogan realized he wasn't getting any more popular, so he agreed to it. And the heel turn did revitalize him. It was the best move for him and sparked another boom period in wrestling, in a big way.

Exactly, I don't disagree that Hogan turning heel was the best thing for his career, but his career wasn't going to die because he didn't turn heel.

Without the heel turn he would have went on to more world championship runs, just like he did with the n.W.o. He would have been a hall of famer either way. Hogan NEEDED nothing. Was it the best move for him to turn heel? Of coarse it was. Would Hogan's legacy been ruined had he not? ABSOLUTELY NOT! He was HULK HOGAN!!! He was a legend already. HE needed nothing. WCW needed it. The entire nWo angle needed it. Hogan did not.

 

[waylonmercy]

Hulk Hogan staying face would have killed WCW years before it did die. Had Hogan stayed face, nWo would have never gotten much further than what it did. Hulk Hogan's ego was the biggest in the company and he would had easily squashed Hall and eventually buried Nash to the point that their Outsider gimmick would have been a bust. Hogan was so beyond stale in WCW it was crazy. The fans were starting to boo him, and he was becoming much like John Cena. Except no one liked him. The best move WCW ever made was turning Hogan heel. It was unpredictable, done right, and brought nWo to an elite level. Yes Hall and Nash were just the Outsiders and Hogan coined the term New World Order of Wrestling., but the heel turn made so much sense. Hogan played the heel very well and it made sense. Hogan was in the fans mind, skilled but not the goliath he once was and him resorting to dirty tricks was perfect. Hogan talked the talk and his involvment with Dennis Rodman was another boost. WCW made the mistake of keeping Hogan face for so long, however, most fans seem to forget about how bad he was in WCW pre heel turn.

 

[pipebomber]

Hulk Hogan staying face would have killed WCW years before it did die. Had Hogan stayed face, nWo would have never gotten much further than what it did.

again... this is why WCW needed Hogan to turn heel, this is why nwo needed Hogan to turn heel. It is NOT why Hogan needed to turn heel. You're right Hogan was stale. As you mentioned, Cena is now stale. you say no one liked Hogan? I remember seeing lots of kids in the audience in their Hulkamania shirts and signs. In all the old WCW stuff I see, the networks out now, rewatch it. Hogan was no more hated then than John Cena is now. Yes any heel that went against Hogan was gunna get cheered. No different than with Cena now.

 

[waylonmercy]

again... this is why WCW needed Hogan to turn heel, this is why nwo needed Hogan to turn heel. It is NOT why Hogan needed to turn heel. You're right Hogan was stale. As you mentioned, Cena is now stale. you say no one liked Hogan? I remember seeing lots of kids in the audience in their Hulkamania shirts and signs. In all the old WCW stuff I see, the networks out now, rewatch it. Hogan was no more hated then than John Cena is now. Yes any heel that went against Hogan was gunna get cheered. No different than with Cena now.

John Cena is face because he makes the company a lot of money. He is #1 wish granter in Make A Wish History and many of the people who boo Cena or yelling Cena Sucks are just doing it because they want to be rebellious. John Cena turning heel wouldn't be a good career decision for him. Hulk Hogan's heel turn was the best decision he made in WCW. The moment Hogan turned heel he extended his relevance by another 5 years. Not many people expected him to turn heel and he cut a solid heel promo when he did turn heel. Do you think Hogan needed a heel turn pipebomber?

 

[pipebomber]

John Cena is face because he makes the company a lot of money. He is #1 wish granter in Make A Wish History and many of the people who boo Cena or yelling Cena Sucks are just doing it because they want to be rebellious. John Cena turning heel wouldn't be a good career decision for him. Hulk Hogan's heel turn was the best decision he made in WCW. The moment Hogan turned heel he extended his relevance by another 5 years. Not many people expected him to turn heel and he cut a solid heel promo when he did turn heel. Do you think Hogan needed a heel turn pipebomber?

no I don't, obviously. I think that a heel turn benefitted him, but as I said in my first post the word "need" implies a lot. It implies that his career would have went in the gutter had he not turned heel. It implies that he would have been finishing his career in high school gyms had he not turned heel. It implies he would not have been hall of fame worthy had he not turned heel. None of which is true. Hulk Hogan Was Hulk Mother Fucking Hogan. Heel turn or not that is, was, and forever will be the case. Hogan didn't need it. Every thing around him needed it, but he himself did not.

 

[Jonyboyuk2]

I think Hogan was becoming stale. He had been doing the same routine for 12 years at least. Hogan came to WWF in the run up to WM 9. He did not have the desired effect on the box office, and by this stage fans had started to get behind Bret Hart.

When he went to WCW he was drawing but the big box office numbers had gone by this stage, and in WCW Hogan in his super hero mould did not please the old school wrasslin fans. I think his aura would have been dented massively in that era had he carried on playing a face. And then the idea of the NWO came about and who better to lead the assault on WCW than Hogan. The only time a heel turn has been done more effectively was when Vince McMahon went from geeky announcer to the Mr. McMahon character. For Hogan, he needed the revival (read any autobiography from anyone in wrestling at that time and how they recall Hogan- stale) to halt the decline.

 

[MrJay]

I think Hogan was becoming stale. He had been doing the same routine for 12 years at least. Hogan came to WWF in the run up to WM 9. He did not have the desired effect on the box office, and by this stage fans had started to get behind Bret Hart.

When he went to WCW he was drawing but the big box office numbers had gone by this stage, and in WCW Hogan in his super hero mould did not please the old school wrasslin fans. I think his aura would have been dented massively in that era had he carried on playing a face. And then the idea of the NWO came about and who better to lead the assault on WCW than Hogan. The only time a heel turn has been done more effectively was when Vince McMahon went from geeky announcer to the Mr. McMahon character. For Hogan, he needed the revival (read any autobiography from anyone in wrestling at that time and how they recall Hogan- stale) to halt the decline.

Funny thing about that is, Hogan didn't even want to do the heel turn. His reasoning was "how many heels sold merchandise?" He only jumped on board when he saw how huge Hall and Nash were getting over.

 

[Jonyboyuk2]

Funny thing about that is, Hogan didn't even want to do the heel turn. His reasoning was "how many heels sold merchandise?" He only jumped on board when he saw how huge Hall and Nash were getting over.

Agree that it did likely factor in to his thoughts on the turn but I read in Bischoff's Controversy Creates Cash book that he convinced Hogan of the need to turn heel (because he was getting stale).

 

[FlairFan2003]

Hogan was getting stale, but that was evident in WWE before he left. Stale wasn't his big problem in WCW. First, WCW did have a different fan base, one that was very anti WWF. To them they were the better wrestling show and their man was Ric Flair. I think WCW fans could have bought Hogan winning the title but basically steamrolling Flair everytime they faced off for almost two years was not popular with fans. WWE fans tuned in initially to see the big "Clash Of The Titans" but once it became evident Hogan was going to dominate they went away. This isn't Hogan's fault per se, well maybe it is from a booking standpoint since he had creative control and it might have been in everyone's best interest to make the big Hogan-Flair run more even, but the fact was Hogan was the outsider, and fans didn't like seeing him dominate their guy, much like fans don't like seeing the visiting team destroy the home town favorites in the home town favorites stadium.

Another problem Hogan faced was the lack of relevant main event level heels outside of Flair to face. Arn Anderson was credible but I don't think he was viewed as a legit World Title Threat. Rick Rude supposedly was in line for a major World Title feud with either Sting or a fan fave Flair (remember Flair was a fan fave as champ before Hogan arrived and very over with fans) but his injury induced retirement ruined that. Sting was entrenched as hero character and it would have been almost as monumental a character shift for him to turn bad as Hogan. Luger was in WWE the first year plus Hogan was in WCW. Vader did get a run vs Hogan but the matches were horrible and the returns were poor. Hogan was main eventing against re treads from the WWE mid card like Beefcake & Earthquake as they didn't want to use him vs Sting yet and were waiting storyline wise for Flair's return. It was a joke and fans weren't impressed but the fact is if Hogan had been in WWE wrestling those guys he would have gotten much the same lukewarm attention.

Part of what made his heel turn so successful, other than the sheer shock of it, was the fact WCW fans largely felt that way about him already. They saw him as an "outsider" and didn't like him. Also by this time in the mid 90s there were two new dynamics that never existed before for Hogan. First, the advent of the internet and increased writing about the background of pro wrestling was for the first time releasing some unflattering info regarding Hogan's reputation for back stage politics, etc. It was a small knock on him but a knock none the less. Second, and much more troubling, was the fact his fan base from 10-15 years ago was older and no longer as interested in the 80's Reagan Era Hero character Hogan played. They were now more aware of the work and skill involved in pro wrestling, and when it came to work rate Hogan never in a million years could compare to Ric Flair. Older fans cheered Flair despite his villain persona because he was A) More entertaining from a promo and skit standpoint B) he was a much better in ring performer. Likewise in WWE fans were getting heavy doses of Brett Hart & Shawn Michaels, two guys who could easily match Flair at his best in the ring, Hart playing a similar hero character (but as a much better wrestler) as Hogan with HBK displaying a lot of the entertainment value in and out of the ring as Flair. Fans who were loyal "HulkaManiacs" in 1985 were now much older and more interested in the entertainment value more than the character. Add that to the already existing problem of the Mr WWE trying to win over "Flair Country" and you can start to see both why a change would help Hogan but also why WCW fans were so willing to embrace it.

I do think Hogan's character was a bit stale, but so was Undertaker, Hart, and even Flair at this point yet they were all extremely popular. Same with Savage & Sting. Hogan wasn't UNPOPULAR, he just wasn't drawing the same interest he used to, and he wasn't drawing the passionate response that he once did. A really good, evenly matched feud might have alleviated that, but the heel change was a brilliant move.

 

[justtxyank]

Hogan vs Vader drew well so I'm not sure what you meant by the returns were poor. I believe their Superbrawl match is one of WCW's top drawing events.

In general though I agree with your post.

Hogan vs Flair was actually a really good match and most of their contests were good. They also drew well for the company, even into 2000. However, it was a major turnoff for the fans that Hogan was playing the unstoppable face and Flair was the heel who could never get over on Hogan.

1) NWA/WCW audiences had long been groomed to the idea of a heel champion and face challenger, the opposite of the WWF. Hogan's long title reign as a face was absolutely boring and ran counter to what WCW fans had been accustomed to.

2) Cartoons!: WCW was not a cartoon company. The attempts they'd made in the early 90s to have cartoon characters were total flops and led to a lot of financial ruin. End of 93 into 94 saw legit main event wrestling. Hogan wins the belt and we transition almost immediately into cartoon monsters, video skits, etc.

Those were the biggest problems with Hogan in WCW in my opinion. Legit feuds with Flair and Vader would have done wonders for him there. If he had been willing to work his Japanese style that would have been huge as well. Before joining WCW he worked a really good match in Japan. Goes to WCW and it's basically WWF redeux.

 

[Ubermensch]

Hogan vs Vader drew well so I'm not sure what you meant by the returns were poor. I believe their Superbrawl match is one of WCW's top drawing events.

In general though I agree with your post.

Hogan vs Flair was actually a really good match and most of their contests were good. They also drew well for the company, even into 2000. However, it was a major turnoff for the fans that Hogan was playing the unstoppable face and Flair was the heel who could never get over on Hogan.

1) NWA/WCW audiences had long been groomed to the idea of a heel champion and face challenger, the opposite of the WWF. Hogan's long title reign as a face was absolutely boring and ran counter to what WCW fans had been accustomed to.

2) Cartoons!: WCW was not a cartoon company. The attempts they'd made in the early 90s to have cartoon characters were total flops and led to a lot of financial ruin. End of 93 into 94 saw legit main event wrestling. Hogan wins the belt and we transition almost immediately into cartoon monsters, video skits, etc.

Those were the biggest problems with Hogan in WCW in my opinion. Legit feuds with Flair and Vader would have done wonders for him there. If he had been willing to work his Japanese style that would have been huge as well. Before joining WCW he worked a really good match in Japan. Goes to WCW and it's basically WWF redeux.

I think you hit the nail on the head.

If you look at the on screen product the NWA put out in terms of match style and storylines, they were more mature and kayfabe believable than many of exaggerated and cartoonish characters that the WWF had. For the WWF this pattern began in the late 80s and continued until around 97.

I don't know the numbers for WCW in 1995, but I am guessing they were not great. With some exceptions, the NWA had been a more mature product. Bringing in Hogan, Savage, and trying to pass off the Renegade was an offshoot of early 1990s WWF. These gimmicks were tired but also cartoonish. 1995 seemed like a departure from what the typical storylines that WCW/NWA had been tried.

When I say Hogan needed a heel turn I don't mean he was going to be out on his ass, I mean that for him to remain the caliber of talent he had been he needed a heel turn. Again, we are talking about a guy who refused to win the tag team titles because they were beneath him.

1.) Hogan did not have good heels to work with. The Dungeon of Doom angle running through 1995 wasn't picking up traction and very cartoonish.
2.) Hogan's gimmick was stale and didn't set as well with the southern audience.
3.) Because the WCW audience had been groomed to a more realistic product it exasperated the problem.

 

[Hollywood Naitch]

Yes he really did need the change. Hogan wasn't having a good time in WCW during that period. It was clear he was past his best, the gimmick was stale and the fans weren't accepting him in the way he had been loved in WWF. The game was changing and Hogan was smart enough to realise that in order to stay relevant as he got older he needed to change, it was self preservation. That was the reason why he wanted to join the nWo, because he saw how over Nash and Hall were, and Hulk wanted a piece of that, which was the smart thing to do.

It completely worked, Hogan was straight away relevant again and it gave his career a new lease of life. Seeing the American Hero turn his back on the fans was so shocking and it was something that fans never expected to see, which in turn made WCW a must watch promotion.

 

[justtxyank]

I absolutely think Hogan's "American Hero" gimmick could have worked in WCW. Southern audiences love patriotic babyfaces. The problem wasn't the American Hero part of the gimmick, it was the unbeatable part of the gimmick.

WCW audiences loved their bad guys. Vader was mega over with the WCW audiences. Having him look incapable of taking out Hogan was pathetic. Having Hogan and Savage go 2 on infinity and take out all the alleged top heels in the company at the same time was pathetic. WCW fans just didn't like simple minded super hero booking. They wanted strong heels and sympathetic babyfaces that worked their butts off to earn your respect before they took down the heel, had a nice run and then fell to the next (or old) dastardly heel and we could repeat the process.

All of the Hogan/Flair matches were good, but the consistent outcome of Flair not being man enough to beat Hogan was just pathetic. Then he cross dressed and retired and all that nonsense.

If they had booked Hogan Flair like Rocky/Apollo Creed that would have done wonders for Hogan in WCW. Have him struggle to win the gold, put it off until Halloween Havoc maybe then drop it to Vader and let Vader get a long run before Hogan finally takes it back off him...WCW audiences would have done much better with that.

 

[My Name Is Michael Caine]

Speaking purely with the benefit of hindsight, I'd say Hogan's heel turn extended his career by a further 10 years and helped cement his place as a pop culture icon. He went from saying his prayers etc etc to appearing on Jay Leno with guys like Dennis Rodman. "Hollywood" Hogan was cool as hell.