Developmental territories needed even more in light of Bryan

[tvcolosi]

The recent and sad retirement of Daniel Bryan got me thinking. I'm not on to "indys" much at all but Bryan and Punk are the 2 guys that taught me workrate can be as entertaining as a trainwreck brawl.

In light of the undiagnosed concussions Bryan talked about put in to focus for my the added necessity of NXT. Knowing the highest percentage of thier medical history can help protect workers from themself. We all know most guys will go out there no matter how hurt they are. This also clarifies the relationship with Evolve as well. Does anyone know else think this is the reason they arw reaching out the smaller indies as a feeder system to the feeder system?

 

[Vanilla Midget]

Young men and women in wrestling need to just take a look at early retirements by guys like Edge and now Daniel Bryan and think about the bumps they're taking at all times, regardless of what stage of their career they're in.

Young people in their teens and 20s have a tendency to think of themselves as invincible. I've seen a lot more unprotected chair shots in the indies over the years. Bigger promotions have moved away from those unprotected shots and ludicrous spots, whereas people working in the indies tend to do them more in order to get noticed.

Really, it's about protecting your body and recognizing the seriousness of brain injuries. I'm not really sure where relationships with developmental territories will help in that regard. Some head and neck injuries can be very subtle, and talent may work through them in order to keep being booked, and therefore earn and paycheck and hopefully get noticed by scouts for bigger promotions.

It's a promotions responsibility to look out for the safety of the talent, but that doesn't absolve the talent from having to look out for themselves, and plan for wrestling into the stages of their careers.

 

[EastCoastFan]

This was one of the drawbacks of the Attitude Era - bigger bumps and more violent matches. As much as some people want to complain that matches from the 80's and before were boring, those guys usually had longer careers than more recent stars who were all too willing to "die for the cause" in their matches. The expectations of matches got so high that, in the words of Jim Cornette, "guys now have to do twice as much just to get half the crowd response".

 

[TStorm]

This was one of the drawbacks of the Attitude Era - bigger bumps and more violent matches. As much as some people want to complain that matches from the 80's and before were boring, those guys usually had longer careers than more recent stars who were all too willing to "die for the cause" in their matches. The expectations of matches got so high that, in the words of Jim Cornette, "guys now have to do twice as much just to get half the crowd response".

Cornette is right, the Attitude Era/ECW did numb a lot of people to the business, and thus people had to put even more into it than they used to, but there are a one drawback to the indie scene in general.

The largest issue with the indy scene is the lack of proper story-tellers, everyone assumes "Hey, I'll go out and do this move, and I'll get the crowd going and it'll get me noticed." Not 'bad' logic, except, are you getting over or are the moves your doing getting over? You're also heightening the chance of injury.

With more story-telling in the ring, you don't need all the moves, you just need the connection, get the people behind you. It's a little harder to get people to 'buy in' but people have been capable of doing it. The art of story-telling is a dying art, because so many people want to do the flips, dives, take the massive bumps in order for them to get over.

 

[rmp0012002]

Wrestling was generally a slow sport but over the years the wrestling has become faster and more technical. The more advanced the move the higher risk of injury. The WWE has had a lot of injuries lately but seem to be from sloppy work as there also seems to be a lot more guys getting busted open the hard way that I've never seen in prior years.

 

[Navi]

Wrestling was generally a slow sport but over the years the wrestling has become faster and more technical. The more advanced the move the higher risk of injury. The WWE has had a lot of injuries lately but seem to be from sloppy work as there also seems to be a lot more guys getting busted open the hard way that I've never seen in prior years.

I agree with the first part of your post about being faster and more technical. But I disagree injuries are happening because of sloppy work on the behalf of the wrestlers.

I believe we're seeing more injuries because of the pace that these guys have to keep up with. The human body is only designed to take so much, and it doesn't matter how much you can bench press or how cut you are, working night after night putting your body through the wringer takes it's toll after awhile. Even the smallest of injuries can get blown out of proportion.

Look at Orton, he's been out for a couple of months now because of a shoulder injury. That happened in a car accident a few years ago, and just by picking up a bag of trash he put it out again. Guys like Cena and Cesaro work injured, and what happens is they don't give themselves time to heal and it gets worse. I don't know if that's what's expected of them in the WWE or just their own personal choice.

We don't want to go down the route of having a legislative body governing the sport, but something needs to be done. With the injuries that have happened this year alone in the WWE tells us that things are not right. I'm willing to believe that the WWE isn't the only wrestling organization that has this same problem, including the indies.

 

[dsotm5150]

Working hurt is nothing new, wrestlers have always done that, especially in the old days where if you didn't work a show, you didn't get paid for that show or they were worried about losing their spot. Its hard to say what the issue is. Injuries happen, its a rough business, you'd be hard pressed to find someone if anyone who's wrestled 10 years plus without getting injured. All it takes is one miscalculation on your part or your opponents part and you're on the sidelines. I think a developmental territory or an NXT is a great way to make sure the "not ready for primetime players" are prepped to work a WWE style, but its not going to fix the fact that accidents are going to happen.

 

[timothy26]

The pace and the amount of work the guys have to do is ridiculous. The problem for guys like Bryan is they had to work several times per week on the indies to make a living and probably worked hurt due to lack of insurance and loss of income. Then they come to WWE and have to appear on RAW and Smackdown as well as the house shows every week. It's like getting beaten up every other day.

 

[stingray11214]

The pace and the amount of work the guys have to do is ridiculous. The problem for guys like Bryan is they had to work several times per week on the indies to make a living and probably worked hurt due to lack of insurance and loss of income. Then they come to WWE and have to appear on RAW and Smackdown as well as the house shows every week. It's like getting beaten up every other day.

And how many days a week do you think they did in the Territorial era? Wrestlers used to drive from one one-horse town to the next every day. The average wrestler spent over 280 days a year on the road. And, they did not have the rings they have today. Bruno Sammartino once remarked how he had no idea how these people could get hurt! Why? Back in the day, until the 90's, promotions used BOXING rings. What is the difference? modern-day wrestling rings have and abundance of padding under the canvas. The ring has some give to it. The Boxing rings used in the day? Solid frame. No extra padding. No give. When you got body slammed and suplexed, you felt it. That is why the average wrestling career lasted 3 months back in the day. Only the strong survived.

As for why all the injuries? Lack of training and matches. Look, how many matches do they get in NXT? Once a week? Maybe twice? In the days of the Territories, you were TOLD to wrestle EVERY NIGHT. That means you went from town to town. Wrestling in the barns, fairgrounds, church basements and school auditoriums. You learned to eat sardines and beans. To wash in gas stations and public restrooms. You APPRECIATED the business. That is the problem with pro wrestling today. Many of these guys are in it so they can get on TV. So they can make movies and go to Hollywood. That is why people that TRULY love the business like Bryan Danielson (DBry) had to leave the business. Do you think he got 10 concussions from his own recklessness? In wrestling, it takes two to tango. Your life is in his/her hands and vice versa. A lot of times he probably landed wrong. Maybe something he did. Maybe his opponent. Who knows? But, all I know is that the Territories allowed for more development and training to become better wrestlers. you do not have that today. This is why you have all these injuries.

 

[Piss Bucket]

Meh, there will never be another 2 guys the IWC are in love with as much as they adore CM Puke (yeh) and Daniel "I do 3 moves" Bryan.

 

[ShinChan]

Daniel "I do 3 moves" Bryan.

So thats a too wrong statemenet and as a bryan fan, I will surely and strongly disagree.

And this time, I neednot search at Wikipedia. So here are some moves that are more than 3 and yet bryan does these:

1. Omoplata Crossface
2. Cattle Mutilation
3. Running single leg high knee
4. Shoot Kicks
5. Diving Headbutt
6. Roundhouse Kick
7. Suicide Dive
and a lot more. You can surely visit Wikipedia for more specific details.

And Stop pointing at every WWE wrestler that they do 2-3 moves only.

​

 

[Mustang Sally]

It's a promotions responsibility to look out for the safety of the talent, but that doesn't absolve the talent from having to look out for themselves, and plan for wrestling into the stages of their careers.

Perfectly said. It's the same problem with the old-time football players who kept their injuries from team trainers because they were worried about protecting their spots in the line-up. Then, years after their careers are over, here they are suing the NFL for 'not taking care of them.'

The pressure of getting a job in WWE......and the continuing problem of keeping it.....creates the same situation. After they're done with their careers, we'll read some of them complaining about the same thing as the football guys.

So yes, the 'minor leagues' are a great place to start educating these people about looking after their own well-being. If they keep ignoring the warning signs to further their career ambitions, that's their choice.....but don't tell us later about how WWE treated you badly as concerns head injuries when it was actually a two-way street.

 

[Fillet Club]

Meh, there will never be another 2 guys the IWC are in love with as much as they adore CM Puke (yeh) and Daniel "I do 3 moves" Bryan.

Ah there's the use of the term 'IWC', a term that is horrifically outdated. Tell me, do you not count as a member? Are you not on the internet discussing wrestling? Or did you post that using your microwave?

Saying Daniel Bryan had only '3 moves' is laughable, do you genuinely believe that or are you attempting to troll? You surely can't deny that Bryan was entertaining in the ring, even if not a massive fan of him you'd be able to enjoy/respect his work in the ring?

Or do you just dislike both Punk and Bryan because they came up through the independent scene?

 

[therockiswwf]

Concussions are not a result of overworking. Bryan's neck was a result of that stinger (I think) in his match with Orton. So those two injuries were not a result of the schedule. Back and hip injuries are probably common injuries due to the schedule.

Athletes in general, at any level, tough it out. I did it in high school (which resulted in injuring myself even more because being tough is REALLY FUCKING STUPID). It's not just wrestling that has this problem, it's our entire society. Toughing it out is encouraged and applauded while resting is mocked. That should be opposite and it's a shame it isn't. Plus throw in money and/or losing your spot concerns, it brews a perfect storm.

Mr. Kennedy (a guy who was known as injury prone) said most injuries come as the result of accidents/being reckless. That while the schedule does cause nagging injuries, the big ones come from landing wrong, botches, etc.

They are not reaching out to smaller promotions due to injuries. They are doing it because HHH or someone thinks Evolve is a good breeding ground for indy talent.

 

[THTRobtaylor]

It's hard to say that more developmental territories are needed, because that implies that more territories need to work the WWE style only... that's not the case.

The thing to bear in mind, however much "damage" the Attitude Era did in terms of raising the required stakes or as Cornette says "numbing people", that only actually applies to marks. We're passed the point of talent coming into the business being influenced by Ric Flair, Hogan, Savage and the like... guys like Ambrose, Bryan etc have grown up with that Attitude Era but now we're at the stage where even we're passed that. People entering the business from here on out are gonna be influenced by those post Attitude/Cena era talents. So if Bryan and Punk are considered the "true talent poster boys" there will be a lot of guys now trying to emulate their path. Which is going to mean a lot of unnecessary risk.

What is needed is a true competitor to WWE that offers an alternative for guys to go to... back in the day, you could go to the WWF and be an entertainer or WCW and at the start of Nitro at least) be known more for your work. Once guys started jumping and WWF won the war... that choice was gone... now guys HAVE to get to WWE as even Japan can't sustain in the way it once did.

Ultimately though the newer generations have a big problem, and it's the IWC.

Guys like Bryan got their concussions YEARS before they made it to the WWE, then refused to tone down "what brought them to the dance" which got the casual fans on side with them and kept their IWC fans happy, but shortened their careers.

Look at Austin, once he got the neck injury, he adapted from being one of the better technical guys out there to flat out 5 spot brawler, were the IWC chewing him out for it? Hell No... If Bryan had done the same when he was having seizures, they would have pounced... "he sold out to Vince" etc... The modern guys almost refuse to back down because they get crucified on the net if they do, net fans don't see "if only Bryan had toned it down when he was having seizures, he'd still be active", they just wanted him at full tilt all the time... that creates a trap where he was LYING about his health rather than disappoint fans. In some ways it's an old school mentality, I always remember Cornette talking about Bossman/Bubba smashing his hand in a car door in front of fans and literally no-selling until he got inside, where he cried like a baby cos his hand was in pieces... today it's not protecting "the business" but self preservation, from losing a spot but also that popularity online...

No developmental can teach a way round this... no other TV show has fans so rabid and who have such an undue influence to the point guys will ignore health problems to keep popular with them... but indy wrestlers and now we know WWE Champions do...

 

[timothy26]

And how many days a week do you think they did in the Territorial era? Wrestlers used to drive from one one-horse town to the next every day. The average wrestler spent over 280 days a year on the road. And, they did not have the rings they have today. Bruno Sammartino once remarked how he had no idea how these people could get hurt! Why? Back in the day, until the 90's, promotions used BOXING rings. What is the difference? modern-day wrestling rings have and abundance of padding under the canvas. The ring has some give to it. The Boxing rings used in the day? Solid frame. No extra padding. No give. When you got body slammed and suplexed, you felt it. That is why the average wrestling career lasted 3 months back in the day. Only the strong survived.

As for why all the injuries? Lack of training and matches. Look, how many matches do they get in NXT? Once a week? Maybe twice? In the days of the Territories, you were TOLD to wrestle EVERY NIGHT. That means you went from town to town. Wrestling in the barns, fairgrounds, church basements and school auditoriums. You learned to eat sardines and beans. To wash in gas stations and public restrooms. You APPRECIATED the business. That is the problem with pro wrestling today. Many of these guys are in it so they can get on TV. So they can make movies and go to Hollywood. That is why people that TRULY love the business like Bryan Danielson (DBry) had to leave the business. Do you think he got 10 concussions from his own recklessness? In wrestling, it takes two to tango. Your life is in his/her hands and vice versa. A lot of times he probably landed wrong. Maybe something he did. Maybe his opponent. Who knows? But, all I know is that the Territories allowed for more development and training to become better wrestlers. you do not have that today. This is why you have all these injuries.

Sorry, I didn't realise you had wrestled in the territories and had all that insider information.

Anyway, I don't see the point you are trying to make. My comment is the modern schedule plus the modern work rate is most likely what's causing alot of these injuries. People were working hurt and concussions were not taken as seriously in times past, so the guys were getting hurt just as badly, they were just either ignorant about working hurt or were forced to work through injuries for financial reasons or by promoters.

The current style of wrestling is much more fast paced and has a greater emphasis on high risk spots. Guys like Bryan, Dean Ambrose and others are/were doing dives through the ropes onto the floor on a nightly basis.

Saying "most" wrestlers are in the business to get on TV and get into movies is an incredibly ignorant and blanket statement. Many of the guys have appeared in WWE produced films which is still part of what WWE currently do. I don't see guys like Daniel Bryan, Kevin Owens, AJ Styles, Bray Wyatt, Seth Rollins, Cesaro, Finn Balor etc being in the business to get into movies.

 

[Navi]

Well seeing as I'm 20 years your senior, I think I've probably been watching wrestling considerably longer

Being 20 years his senior and watching wrestling for as long as you have only means that you don't make erroneous statements that can be proven incorrect.

You stated Daniel Bryan had 3 moves, and when proven wrong, you say I've been watching longer than you. Well that comes under the heading of "Who gives a shit". You might have been watching longer, but you have no idea of what you're talking about.

A wrestling forum is the worst place to make inaccurate statements, there are a whole group that will jump in here to prove you wrong.

 

[Fillet Club]

Well seeing as I'm 20 years your senior, I think I've probably been watching wrestling considerably longer

Good for you? I can't see how that makes any kind of difference. It doesn't change the fact that when you're wrong, you're wrong, you can't pull the age card.

Devil listed more than three moves that D-Bry would often pull off and instead of holding your hands up and admitting you were talking nonsense, you tried to side step it... with more nonsense.

 

[BaconBits]

Adding more developmental territories isn't going to solve any injury problems, in fact, more wrestlers on the payroll is going to increase the likelihood of wrestlers getting and working injured.

What would be better for limiting injuries is rotating time off. Actual seasons like stick and ball sports wouldn't work so well, because the E needs to produce new television, live or taped, each week. What would work, would be a rotation of sorts, where every wrestler on the active roster gets two months off a year. It doesn't even have to be two consecutive months. and really shouldn't. You just have a few guys stay home one month, then after the PPV, those guys come back, and different guys stay home for the next month, and so on and so forth. It could even work wonders for storylines, particularly as far selling a beating. A guy gets beaten so badly he misses the next month with "injuries".

 

[Mighty NorCal]

Working hurt is nothing new, wrestlers have always done that, especially in the old days where if you didn't work a show, you didn't get paid for that show or they were worried about losing their spot. Its hard to say what the issue is. Injuries happen, its a rough business, you'd be hard pressed to find someone if anyone who's wrestled 10 years plus without getting injured. All it takes is one miscalculation on your part or your opponents part and you're on the sidelines. I think a developmental territory or an NXT is a great way to make sure the "not ready for primetime players" are prepped to work a WWE style, but its not going to fix the fact that accidents are going to happen.

What everyone is missing is we are in a transitional period of how we view health.

Like the above poster said, back in the territory days, guys worked with a litany of very serious injuries all the time. Much worse than the usual today.

The difference is, back then they could pill up, or do steroids to aid in either

1. recovering from said injuries faster
2. Being able to make it along while injured due to being pilled up.

Neither of those are viable options anymore, not to mention, we have a lot more information on how bad living that way REALLY is, and how serious it is.

The amount of high risk and high impact work being done has indeed gone up, but I feel like its scapegoated more than it should be.

People still get hurt all the time in NXT too. The only way to slow down this process is to slow down what's going on in the ring.


There is some irony to the fact that people are legitimately hurting themselves more often in large part due to their refusal to sell properly.




The real advantage to the territories was people learning how to work and get over in front of different crowds using different styles. The WWE ain't sanctioning anything like that, at least as long as Vince is still around.

 

[SHAGAMANIA 3:16]

This was one of the drawbacks of the Attitude Era - bigger bumps and more violent matches. As much as some people want to complain that matches from the 80's and before were boring, those guys usually had longer careers than more recent stars who were all too willing to "die for the cause" in their matches. The expectations of matches got so high that, in the words of Jim Cornette, "guys now have to do twice as much just to get half the crowd response".

Yeah but nobody wants to see people wrestle into there 60's.